All,
I'm a high mileage driver, circa 30 to 40k per year. In all my time of driving, I've never had to replace a clutch despite some cars having over 150k on the clock.
I took over a Subaru Legacy diesel last year that was an 09 plate with 17k on the clock. It's now done 45k and it's getting very difficult to engage 1st and reverse gears. Likewise the biting point of the clutch is about 1/2 an inch from the bottom of the total pedal travel.
I assume the clutch is now fully worn.
Is 45k the norm for a 4wd car to go through a clutch?
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Does it need adjusting, (cable) or bleeding, (hydraulic)? If you are not normally heavy on clutches it may not be worn.
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I seem to remember HJ saying that Subaru clutches get more punishment starting from rest because of the awd system. Less slop and backlash and more internal friction, plus perhaps stiff lsds. Nothing's perfect.
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I've only ever had one clutch let go in a lot of miles and a lot of cars. That was on a then 3 months old Sierra which had covered only 13k miles. That was more or less inexplicable too but after a bit of to-ing and fro-ing Ford replaced it under warranty. That car went on to do over 100k in my hands without further ado.
Never had a dmf failure either despite "risking" it with 3 TDCis. Wouldn't like to say how long a clutch should averagely last but in my one man straw poll they seem pretty tough. Must be faulty I'd have thought.
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>> I seem to remember HJ saying that Subaru clutches get more punishment starting from rest
>> because of the awd system. Less slop and backlash and more internal friction, plus perhaps
>> stiff lsds. Nothing's perfect.
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I would not think the 4X4 system will be the problem, if the car will roll in neutral the main load on the clutch will be moving off from a standstill. You don't spin all four wheels do you? :-)
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If the clutch is worn, wont the biting point be at the top of the pedal travel, not the bottom?
Sounds like something else other than worn.
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>> If the clutch is worn, wont the biting point be at the top of the
>> pedal travel, not the bottom?
I was just thinking that!
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If the clutch is simply worn won't it just be slipping? had a worn clutch on a Mondeo and the only symptom for me was slipping.
My Mazda 6 is sometimes difficult to put into first or second. Other times it is fine. Is yours intermittent our all the time?
Maybe clutch just needs adjusting or transmission fluid changing?
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Another one-man straw but the only clutch I've ever needed replaced was in my Volvo at 114,000 miles - and that was only half worn but had been damaged by fluid from a leaking cylinder.
Difficulty in engaging gears could be as simple as cable routes over worn pulleys or grommets - which I think is the problem with my car at the moment. Doesn't sound like a clutch problem.
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Like to think i'm pretty good with clutches too.
However if modern Diesels have shorter clutch life it doesn't surprise me, and to a slightly lesser extent petrols too.
There was a time when cars had ultra low speed lugging power, almost impossible to stall and regardless of how low the revs went would still keep chugging away.
Fast forward to now and many cars need lots of throttle and clutch slipping to get moving, simply drop the clutch with no revs and the thing will die, try to make it lug right down to stall revs in traffic and it gets jerky and uncomfortable, forcing the driver to change to a lower gear...if it's already in first then clutch slipping is the thing.
Several things have changed IMO.
First gears are often too high, engines are designed to run on such little fuel to pass emissions tests that below turbo spool revs there simply isn't enough fuel to power the thing, the driver gets understandably frustrated and boots it till he gets some power.
Have clutches increased in size enough to cope with the increased weights and power they have to feed.
My years on transporters showed the increasing severe low speed lack of torque of many cars especially turbo'd, some cars were surprisingly good though, usually the larger engined versions, but the C1/107/Aygo stands out by being almost impossible to stall compared with the vast majority of other small engined cars...not saying it's clutch will last any better but a good driver should never need to slip it.
The first one to stand out as being woefully lacking in power was the mk4 1.4 lean burn Escort, it simply couldn't get on the truck without severe maltreatment, the 3 cylinder Corsa has always been a standing joke on the job for the same reason.
One other thing if your not already bored to tears..:-)...i wonder if the constant extra torque required to release electric handbrakes could have a long term wear effect, but driver skill and sympathy is still the overriding cause of premature clutch wear IMO.
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>> If the clutch is worn, wont the biting point be at the top of the pedal travel, not the bottom?
It does seem logical, and it is usually so. But in the quite-a-few cars I have had, I can remember at least one that behaved in the opposite way - with the clutch biting very early in the upward pedal stroke - when it was knackered. Trouble is, I can't remember which car it was. I'm not just giving blahblah here, I have replaced clutches four or five times single-handed. I do know how they work.
If the cause isn't e.g. low hydraulic fluid, worn thrust block or bearing or similar, it isn't impossible that a Subaru clutch is a bit special and unusual like the rest of the car. Number_Cruncher might well have a useful input, and Aprilia who used to post on HJ was a Subaru freak (it has occurred to me more than once that they could be the same person, no offence N_C).
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The clutch is dragging for some reason - i.e. not disengaging properly which is not a sign of lining wear in itself (or possibly at all) but something's not right. The drag means the gearbox input shaft is always being turned which is why the gears are difficult to engage.
Cable or hydraulic? It might just need adjustment but it's more likely there's another primary cause - our old Golf had the symptom just before the bowden cable pulled through the bulkhead, or it could be a leaking slave cyclinder if it's hydraulic - check the fluid level.
It may well be more sinister - there are lots of things that can go wrong with clutches apart from lining wear, especially when there is also a dual mass flywheel involved.
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I once drove a Rover 75 with a failing clutch. The pedal was exceptionally heavy in operation but the biting point was normal.
They changed the clutch, problem solved, I think the changed the flywheel aswell though, could have been a part of the problem.
Only time ive experienced a biting point on the floor was in a car with a brand new clutch that hadnt been adjusted correctly.
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i seem to remember my old rover clutch cable seizing prematurely because the battery breather pipe had vented spleen on the cable causing it to corrode , making it heavy in operation but it worked ok...until it snapped
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>> getting very difficult to engage 1st and reverse gears
>> biting point of the clutch is about 1/2 an inch from the bottom
That sounds more like maladjustment than wear. If the clutch plates are wearing, the biting point should move up to the top of the pedal travel, culminating in a clutch that doesn't fully engage when you lift your foot off the pedal.
I would expect the clutch on a 2009 car to last a lot longer than 45k miles.
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If getting first and reverse is difficult then I'd wonder whether it would be more likely to be a gearbox issue.
Get the gearbox fluid level and quality checked too.
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Hydraulic clutch, maybe it needs bleeding.
Cable clutch, try pulling the pedal up, possibly the (if) automatic adjuster needs a bit of help.
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I've had two cars with clutch problems, Corsa but my machanaic told me when I bought it the clutch cable needing adjusting, I had it booked in for the Monday but by the Friday it was quite undrivable for a P plater, I mentioned this to a car mad customer and he adjusted it for, took about 2 seconds and he told me how to adjust cables in the future.
The other car was my second Fiesta, the clutch burnt out within my first 200 miles, I never test drove it - my dad it, so I always blame him for noticing the high biting point.
Other than that :-
Friends clio , 40k I told her the biting point is high and you might need a new clutch at some point, it is now on 96k, on the same clutch etc.
My dads Fiesta is on 93k, all city miles, the car has been in Manchester since new and is 14 years old, still on original clutch and the gear change is smoother than a lot of new cars.
Friends 206, on 120k on the original clutch but the car is now SORNED, when I drove it at 110k the clutch felt as a good as new, but it was heavy but that is the nature of the 2.0 GTI,
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Interesting points guys, thanks.
The clutch is certainly not slipping so it could be the other points that you mention. It's due its 48k service in a few weeks so I'll get them to check the cable/hydraulics
Thanks.
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I had an A4 that was difficult to engage first - sometimes you had to lift off the clutch and try again and it would pop in.
Garage suggested that the syncromesh (sp?) was knackered??? Dont know if thats right or not, but that was at 120K on original clutch - I sold it at 150K and it had got no worse
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f this is a company vehicle then I'd get this checked now personally. And then get it serviced in a few weeks. Unless they can service it early - some give and take usually possible.
I'll find out more about my Mazda6 intermittent gear problem tomorrow I hope. In the meantime I have to admit I quite like the Insignia SRi 160 CDTi. Not enough to want one but it was very good on the motorways and A roads. Ironically I had an Insignia six to seven months ago in a lower spec and really disliked it. So a decent spec one handles a lot better it seems.
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>> It's due its 48k service in a few weeks so I'll get them to check the cable/hydraulics
I pointed out a blown brake light bulb on a friend's company car a while back - he said it would get done when it was next serviced. I couldn't leave either fault that long!
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A colleague with a DPF equipped car had the light on (and flashing!) and I overheard a conversation. It had been on for a while and he'd ask them to look at it at the next service.
I pointed out to him that if the engine blew up then he could be responsible for not dealing with it sooner. It might be a company car with maintenance cover but if there is a problem it needs looking at. I got him to check oil levels and booked it in sooner than later.
I suspect it had been service by a non franchised dealer and the computer not reset to recalibrate oil levels... it was okay but that was more luck.
My car has a gearbox issue - it's been in since Wednesday and on Friday the lease company agreed to some work in the end. If they wouldn't do any work and then it failed needing a new gearbox or similar I'd be covered.
Driving a company car does not mean I won't have to pay out nothing if there is a maintenance problem. Not likely to happen but possible.
Edit: added the words flashing which the DPF light was. The attitude was 'it's okay it's a company car'... oh so they don't break and cost thousands to fix then?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 31 Jul 11 at 22:13
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If you have a light foot and service the crankcase ventilation system so that it doesn't leak oil through the rear crankshaft seal, a clutch can last for ever.
I've never replaced a clutch on my Volvo 240s. One did 420,000 miles and my present two cars have done 260,000 and 150,000 miles.
It will last as long as you want it to last.
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>> It will last as long as you want it to last.
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Agree with that, A clutch should be engaged or disengaged and there is never a need to slip a clutch, thats what kills them. Unless it develops a fault of course.
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"there is never a need to slip a clutch, "
Surely That's the whole point of a clutch. Every time you start a car form stationary and exercise clutch control you are slipping the clutch.
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>> "there is never a need to slip a clutch, "
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>> Surely That's the whole point of a clutch. Every time you start a car form
>> stationary and exercise clutch control you are slipping the clutch.
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There is a difference between moving off when there will be less than a seconds slip and deliberately holding the weight of the car on a slope with the clutch for a prolonged period (waiting for the traffic lights to change).
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I agree, but the very nature of a clutch is that it slips and that slipping causes wear and eventually that clutch will wear our however careful you are. That is the nature of the beast. To state that a clutch should always be engaged or disengaged is clearly an impossibility.
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>> To state that a clutch should always be engaged
>> or disengaged is clearly an impossibility.
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It is my HGV training coming through, I was taught that your foot should be off the clutch pedal or the pedal should be fully depressed, it works for me, even in a car.
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>> It is my HGV training coming through, I was taught that your foot should be
>> off the clutch pedal or the pedal should be fully depressed, it works for me,
>> even in a car.
So how do you get the clutch between these two states of nirvana? Magic?
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>> So how do you get the clutch between these two states of nirvana? Magic?
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No, skill, and training.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 1 Aug 11 at 10:16
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>> >>
>> >> So how do you get the clutch between these two states of nirvana? Magic?
>> >>
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>> No, skill, and training.
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The slippage should be kept to a minimum in duration.
Also the power developed by the engine, should be kept down, until the clutch is fully engaged.
ie, lift your clutch foot BEFORE lowering your throttle foot...
Simples!
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And as the clutch pedal moves gently from depressed to not depressed the clutch is slipping is it not? Or perhaps you just take your foot off suddenly and progress like a kangaroo?
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>> And as the clutch pedal moves gently from depressed to not depressed the clutch is
>> slipping is it not?
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No. The engine is idling, and there are damper springs in the clutch plate to accommodate the small difference in speed.
The only exceptions are obviously starting on a steep hill or pulling an exceptional load.
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Subarus are a bit inclined to eat their DMFs. They squeak like a budgie caught in the engine; although they don't actually fail quickly they then cause the clutch to fail after half their normal lifespan.
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Modern clutch design often leads to the odd operation mentioned by the OP and they will fail this way (well become unpleasant to use anyway) compared with the old days when they either worked or slipped.
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How long should a clutch last? - Old Navy
