***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 10 *****
Top Gear chat.
Volume 8 is HERE:-
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 6 Feb 12 at 19:57
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This is Rattly's post from Volume 8......
"Which is more less what I have done, although I intend to use each year to pay for car insurance, I will then use the savings to pay off the car.
The interest savings (from not having to take out a loan for car insurance) will save me over £600 over the next three years."
Someone has given this post a scowly face (deemed offensive). What is going on? Why does that deserve a negative comment?
Who is this mysterious person, who doesn't have the guts to post a response?
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From the Sheikh's last post at the end of Volume 8: 'I don't use the city setting as I suspect that might increase wear.'
Eeee, big clumsy lad like thee, I should hope not Rattolo... and from what I remember the very light normal steering in the hired Punto 1200 which may well have had the same system became even lighter and lost the last semblance of feel (or anyway weight) which it had in the normal setting.
Perhaps the top model should have an even heavier setting called 'double-take brothers' and a completely unassisted, tractor-heavy, Lada-like setting called King Kong. Surely the art of production engineering at the budget end should be to be as many things as possible to as many people as possible? And it would be almost free, therefore profitable, with modern electronics.
Ξ:o}
Oh yes: as for the red gongs, someone seems to be running about awarding them lavishly like a blackguard small boy ringing doorbells and running away.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 18:47
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>>Surely the art of production engineering at
>> the budget end should be to be as many things as possible to as many
>> people as possible? And it would be almost free, therefore profitable, with modern >>electronics.
Or make it with speed sensitivity, save the cost of a switch.
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It does have speed sensitivity, the lower the speed the harder the steering motor works, and the city functions stops working completely at around 20mph because the steering would become dangerously light.
It is a rather pointless button, as the steering nice is and light anyway, with perhaps a little weight to it for a bit of feel, the steering certainly feels better than my Corsa's which felt like I was piloting an Airbus.
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Well the Panda I had in Italy had extremely light steering on the fast roads. Maybe something wasn't quite right with it. It was better when the city mode was disabled. Still light mind.
But I have a car with proper, fuel sapping, electro hydraulic steering and it feels a lot better. But when I came back it felt very heavy and then I realised I had a flat (faulty valve)!
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I prefer the feel of hydraulic steering too, the Fiesta has it but I find it a bit heavy, but then it also has much wider tyres than my Fiesta.
I think the main reason why they have shifted to motors is to get the MPG figures up and the CO2 levels down.
As I said though the Corsa felt a lot worse, it was as if the wheels weren't connected to the ground.
Did the Panda have the 13" wheels? If so the pressure is supposed to be quite low on them but many places will pump them up to 35psi, which makes the steering far too light on a Panda.
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When I hire a car I tend not to check pressures :-) I probably just got used to it after about 3-400 miles of driving though.
To get better MPG I think the Passat CC I will get in October has electric steering. It would explain how a 170PS engine can have better MPG and lower CO2 emissions than a 143PS engine for starters. I do find the steering on the Mazda good and better for sure than the Passat. But the Passat is nicer but about £9500 more expensive.
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Steering feel has all but disappeared from modern cars. It is one area where, without any doubt in my view, progress has actually reversed. Even electrically assisted systems praised for their feel have a light, rubbery, springy quality that is, to me quite simply unpleasant compared to even an average hydraulically assisted sysem.
Emissions will always overrule driving appeal, I guess.
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At the end of the day you can put the figures down on paper, but not steering feel. Could be a unique selling point for MG, no idea what type of steering the MG6 uses etc, but they could have a USP of them being all about the drivers feel rather than great MPG figures etc.
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>>Steering feel has all but disappeared from modern cars. It is one area where, without any doubt in my view, progress has actually reversed.>>
The exact point Top Gear magazine stated when first driving the latest Focus.
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>>the Passat CC I will get in October
You getting a new car this year then? Kept that quiet didn't you? Passat is it?
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 22:45
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Sssh. It's still a Passat though. Not sure what colour driving gloves to get yet. You might know Humph. And a hat maybe?
Seriously though. The steering on the Passat is not as good as the Mazda6. Obviously both steer fine but there is so much more feedback on the 6. I realised the weekend of the 72 hour test drive of the CC because I did the Snake Pass 2.5 times (a fair bit in the Mazda to compare back to back). Well motorways are boring and I had to compare xenons to active bi-xenons.
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That was my voice in the wilderness on the mk1 and 2 Focus - I drove several different variants, usually new or newish and they all had the horrid dead - straight ahead steering, not a car I liked to drive and I did really want to like it.
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>> Someone has given this post a scowly face (deemed offensive). What is going on? Why
>> does that deserve a negative comment?
>>
>> Who is this mysterious person, who doesn't have the guts to post a response?
>>
Its probably someone who has a horrendous car loan they can't afford. :-)
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When I had a Panda hire car in Tuscany I forgot it had a city button. So driving to San Gimignano it was a bit jittery but I didn't want to hunt down the button whilst driving on dual carriageways. Turned it off as soon as I could. Then the steering was merely very light. Stupid button IMO.
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Well on the whole I enjoyed it (apart from Geldolf's boring interview).
Loved the building demolition using 'alternate' methods at the end.
No hi-vis, no hard hats, no risk assessments, and no one got injured.
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Geldolf really does love himself doesnt he? Horrid man.
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If he put his sockless feet on my coffee table (if we actually had one !) I'd punch his lights out.
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I for one am looking forward to the first episode of 'The Interceptors'. Looks like my kind of show, and they all suited Jason King 'taches.
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I knew that was the theme for Department S! How sad is that!
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>> Well on the whole I enjoyed it (apart from Geldolf's boring interview).
>>
>> Loved the building demolition using 'alternate' methods at the end.
>> No hi-vis, no hard hats, no risk assessments, and no one got injured.
Yes that was fabulous, any guy would love to do what they did. It was dangerous tho, there were bricks flying over the perimeter fence!
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Was this the week when JC drove the old F1 car? Thought that was fantastic. I think it also shows JC is quite modest about his driving capabilities, as anyone who can drive a car like that properly (eg. fast enough to warm up the tyres) is no mug behind the wheel. Or that's how it looked to me.
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 2 Aug 11 at 11:41
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Tonight's episode features the new Lamborghini Aventador being taken round the TG test track.
Apparently Lamborghini, and their dealers, have been contacting current Lambo owners and prospective owners to watch the program this weekend.
I think there has also still been some fallout on the Ferrari vs McLaren comparison they did earlier in this series.
Although the show is great entertainment, and many of us enjoy it for its motoring as well as fooling around, I think there is no doubt that the motor manufacturers place much much importance on how their products do, whether they be supercars or small cars (remember the Aygo football game).
edited the date in the title to reflect the episode you're talking about
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 1 Aug 11 at 00:30
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Surprised that they had the old Stig on briefly tonight for the last item with all that has been said.
Not a bad programme. Showed that the current electric cars are only practical for the minority. I did about 470 miles this weekend. Try that in a Lief.
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Pretty reasonable end to the series. Hope they test that new Vauxhall thingy next series, looks far more practical than the Leaf.
I have a growing belief that the western world is sleep walking into a transport crisis and anything that is a reasonable alternative should be taken seriously.
I find the idea of a pedal/electric hybrid rather interesting as a concept, something very lightweight, maybe with some kind of Kers system, pedal power will come back at some point.
Im very tempted to jack the Ignis in for the cheapest to run car I can swap it for, but hanging onto it for now. I miss my Charade thats for sure, id have another in a heartbeat with petrol going one way.
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>> I have a growing belief that the western world is sleep walking into a transport
>> crisis and anything that is a reasonable alternative should be taken seriously.
I think you're right.
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>> I have a growing belief that the western world is sleep walking into a transport crisis and
>> anything that is a reasonable alternative should be taken seriously.
I don't know. I've had a sneaky suspicion for a while that the punitive fuel taxes are to encourage people to consider their alternatives.
Maybe i'm crediting them with too much but while it's easy to bash our politco's, some are very bright.
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Stu said: Im very tempted to jack the Ignis in for the cheapest to run car I can swap it for, but hanging onto it for now. I miss my Charade thats for sure, id have another in a heartbeat with petrol going one way.
Ok, ok, noone else went for it, so I'll bite ;-)
Another "save money buying a new car" thread incoming ?
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>>Another "save money buying a new car" thread incoming ? <<
Nah, I seriously cant be bothered and my car aint worth much I shouldnt think, if petrol hits £2 a litre I may have a look around, but even then I dont think it would be all that worth it, my car does 45 mpg and the difference between 45 and 55 mpg in cost terms is quite small, especially with small diesels being stupidly expensive atm for obvious reasons.
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What have you done with the real Stunorthants???
;-)
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>> Not a bad programme. Showed that the current electric cars are only practical for the
>> minority. I did about 470 miles this weekend. Try that in a Lief.
It was pretty predictable I thought. I knew they would end up pushing them somewhere. It's early days for electric, but it took a few years for the internal combustion engine to progress. Maybe electric vehicles will remain unviable, but manufacturers have to look at the different options, we won't be able to run on oil forever, it'll just get too expensive.
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Electric vehicles you plug in at home are not the answer if fossil fuels are used to charge them.
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I think that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future, pity it needs huge amounts of electricity to make it. Also a new distribution infrastructure.
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>> I think that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future, pity it needs huge
>> amounts of electricity to make it. Also a new distribution infrastructure.
Yup the hydrogen fuel cell is still the only viable alternative.
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>> Yup the hydrogen fuel cell is still the only viable alternative.
And the answer to generating electricity is modern nuclear power stations.
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The issue with Nuclear is all the NIMBYs. However yoyu put them in places with hardly any jobs the locals are more likely to welcome them. Sellfafield for example is welcomed by a lot of locals in Cumbria because of the mass employment it brings, even if the site is now in the process of being shut down.
Still wonder if geothermal energy could also be viable, but I guess the crust is too thick in this part of the world.
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It makes perfect sense tho to use solar panels on the roof of your house to charge your car.
Except of course its parked at home overnight.
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Haven't lived in UK for a few years, but I recall there were some daylight hours when you wouldn't get much sun either
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I really loved the feature on electric cars, it was very informative yet still managed to be entertaining. I really want to see more of this on Top Gear.
At one point they would have just laughed at the electric cars and make fun of them etc, but I thought tonight feature was very well balanced.
My biggest gripe with electric cars though is that we barely have enough capacity on the national grid as it is, and most of that the electricity generated is by burning fossil fuels. All electric cars really do is shift the pollution else where.
This might start to get off topic, but with the transport crisis only ten years off, the government really really need to act now to sort out public transport and ensure people don't need to rely on their cars as much. It will be too late in five or ten years time.
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So some of the spare capacity of the national grid will be used for:
- Economy 7 users
- Pumping water back up at Dinorwig
Plug in a load of electric cars overnight (if they make it home)....
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The thing is these electric cars are still very new, but I remember a Peoguet 106 electric being featured on the original Top Gear circa 1993, what happened to that?
Is there any way of making these batteries cheaper if they can be produced in bigger volumes?
The range would not be an issue for me, but charging would be.
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>> but charging would be.
Again a problem for many real users. To safely charge a car wouldn't you need to use a garage? Yes a drive would be okay but someone could start stealing your electric!
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Watching those electric cars was the best reason ever to buy the biggest stonking petrol engined car you could possibly afford.
I'm not saying go into debt to drive a large cc motor, but for anyone with a liking for such cars, such as myself, now is the best time to do it. Second hand prices are falling daily.
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Those racing squaddies impressed me.
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>> Those racing squaddies impressed me.
Me too. And they let old Stig back to help. So TG support these guys if the BBC let Ben Collins back briefly!
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>> So TG support these guys if the BBC let Ben Collins back briefly!
Yes, quite a sporting gesture, and probably to also show no hard feelings.
After all said and done, the TG / Collins falling out still gave all concerned some publicity (Collins for his book, and BBC for the TG show)
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Finally watched it last night - quality piracy FTW - and was very impressed by the bravery of the lads.
Oh, interesting to note that, with the chaps in the studio, Clarkson didn't close the show with his standard 'and on that bombshell' remark.
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>> The thing is these electric cars are still very new, but I remember a Peuguet 106 electric being featured on the original Top Gear circa 1993, what happened to that?>>
I remember driving one of those on the launch. It seemed the answer to all our prayers at the time (apart from the remarkable silence which mean pedestrians didn't know one was approaching them), but comparatively little has be achieved since then (excluding the 118mph GM offering).
Also worth reading:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
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That is what I don't get, I don't think the 106 had a 90mph top speed but I think the range was about the same as the Leaf. I think the only reason we have electric cars on the market now is not really about improved technology but because fuel prices are so high there is now demand for electric cars, when there wasn't 20 years ago.
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Just read up on Wiki, and it seemed this vehicle did have a much lower speed, 57mph and a much poorer range at 62 miles. So it seems the advance in battery technology has worked its way into these modern electric offerings.
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>> Except of course its parked at home overnight.
Just leave the security lights on/
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Well at least when your leaf gets nicked, you know its not going to be far away.
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I think we have a couple of Prius owners who post here, I suspect they are the only ones who would even consider a plug in car.
We are going on a pensioner roam around soon, It will cover (from Edinburgh) Stafford, London, Nottingham, Newark on Trent, Lincoln, Durham, and home. It will take about ten days. I dread to think what it would take in a plug in car, driving at the speed limit it would need charging several times a day at ten to twelve hours at a time, even I can figure out that it does not compute.
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The problem with electric cars for me is a combination of the range/recharge time, and the price. The former renders an electric car useful only as a runabout, and frankly, who can justify £30k for a runabout, when a conventional internal combustion engined equivalent has none of the limitations, and costs little more than a third of the price? Equally, £30k gives you a huge choice of very nice 'proper' cars.
I enjoyed this piece, and thought it unusually insightful and balanced for Top Gear, but the conclusion was quite depressing. When oil does become too expensive to burn in personal transportation, there is still no viable alternative.
Hydrogen has its own very serious set of problems. Resource intensive to produce, difficult to store, difficult to transport safely. It is not (yet) the answer, by a long way.
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Electric cars aren't a good solution for every transport problem ever encountered, yet. In the same way fossil fuel cars aren't either (despite mimsing diesel city driver's strongest protestations). Banging on about how they currently make rubbish long haul HGVs is missing the point.
A electric city car is already outstanding, already better than the alternatives. Because the emissions of an electric city car are at the power station away from large population centres, there's public health improvements to be had across the population.
Assuming worst case - coil / oil fired they're supposed to produce only 25% of the emissions at the power station compared to traditional car engines, if the figures are to be believed. With nuclear, this only gets better.
What's not to like about an electric city car, besides the initial price tag?
Small. Nippy. Efficient. No emissions in the city. Less noise. Cheap to maintain.
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>> Small. Nippy. Efficient. No emissions in the city. Less noise. Cheap to maintain.
And expensive to buy. And in a few years time could need £19k of new batteries as is the case with the Leaf. It has 48 battery modules costing £404 each.
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>> >> Small. Nippy. Efficient. No emissions in the city. Less noise. Cheap to maintain.
>>
>> And expensive to buy. And in a few years time could need £19k of new
>> batteries as is the case with the Leaf. It has 48 battery modules costing £404
>> each.
I think it's about £7k for the Prius. Battery technology is improving all the time. I wonder though how the heater would work in an electric car - obviously it would have to draw from the batteries and heaters require lot's of current.
What about diesel electric? A very small diesel to charge the batteries to run the electric motor, so far less fuel consumption and the advantages of maximum torque from stationary. I can see that being complicated and heavy though. My maths is probably wrong anyway - there must be a reason trains have stonking great diesels to power the electric motors.
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>> I think it's about £7k for the Prius
But it would be cheaper for two reasons. (1) the batteries are only capable of much shorter distances when using only electric power and not assisting the petrol engine and (2) they aren't lithium ion.
The Vauxhall Ampera might be a good compromise for now. And also hybrids that can be plugged in over night - I believe the Prius will offer this soon.
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Well at least when your leaf gets nicked,
By a Tea Leaf...?
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Also the batteries themselves - Metals that have to be mined (a natural resource, the same as fossil fuels) and then shipped halfway across the world to be assembled, and as Rattle has said merely shift the "Co2 Output" Somewhere else.
I agree with James May, - Electric cars (at this stage) is not the answer for better results a alternative fuel has to be developed like Hydrogen.
I always wondered though we can develop synthetic oil - why not synthetic petrol/fuel?
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Redviper>>I always wondered though we can develop synthetic oil - why not synthetic petrol/fuel?
Like Biodiesel? Or ethanol?
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>> Redviper>>I always wondered though we can develop synthetic oil - why not synthetic petrol/fuel?
>>
>> Like Biodiesel? Or ethanol?
So, having sucked out all the available resources under the ground, you propose to strip the earth of all the flora above ground.
Hmm Eat or Drive? I think I know which I would fall back on.
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Zero>> Hmm Eat or Drive? I think I know which I would fall back on.
>>
But that's because you're a petrolhead. The rest of us would probably rather eat...
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>> >> Redviper>>I always wondered though we can develop synthetic oil - why not synthetic petrol/fuel?
The point is we need to move away from these fuels. Have you ever sniffed an exhaust for fun like I have? I can tell you it's pretty nasty stuff close up - you'll feel rather ill for a while. Thank goodness we've got all this fresh air to dilute it.
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Synthetic oils are made from olefins. Which as hydrocarbons must be made from oil in the petrochemical industry.
They are synthetic in so far as they are designed and synthesised to be uniform and to have ideal characteristics - rather than that they are made by starting with a bucket of carbon and a bucket of hydrogen.
A bit like synthetic fibres (polyester) which are similarly derived from oil.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 1 Aug 11 at 13:36
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I have absolutely no idea what synthetic oil is made from. Anyone know?
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It was oil I was wondering about, not fuel. The wiki article on synthetic oil says it's synthesised from chemical compunds. I could have worked that bit out myself. But what are the raw materials from which these compunds are obtained and then synthesised?
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>> what are the raw materials from which these compunds are obtained and then synthesised?
>>
Largely, er, oil ...
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Or methane. Coal. Refuse dumps. Anything that has hydrogen and carbon available.
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I worked on synthetic petrol at university in the late 80's. We could easily convert ethanol into useable petrol (not e85 or whatever), and the process was used commercially in New Zealand as I recall. The downside was you still need a source of ethanol, usually from biomass.
The process was zeolytic conversion, if anyone is interested.
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>a alternative fuel has to be developed like Hydrogen.
>I always wondered though we can develop synthetic oil - why not synthetic petrol/fuel?
The oil embargo provided the impetus for large scale synthetic fuel production in South Africa during the apartheid era.
Sasol use coal but any source of carbon could be used (CO2 anyone?) given a cheap enough supply of energy to fuel the process.
The advantage of petrol and diesel is that they are easy to handle, and storage and distribution can be as simple as a 40gal drum. The logistical problems with Hydrogen mean that it is a complete non-starter for most parts of the world - excluding large urban areas.
The small indie fuel stations where my folks live in Yorkshire couldn't afford Hydrogen facilities, never mind Philemon's Fuel in the middle of the Namib Desert.
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"How powerful Top Gear has become"
Only to the simpletons that don't realise it is an entertainment show loosely based on motoring.
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>> Only to the simpletons that don't realise it is an entertainment show loosely based on motoring.
So that is pretty powerful then! :-P
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>> uk.autoblog.com/2011/05/16/nissan-reacts-to-top-gear-breaking-down-in-a-leaf/
It reports that someone took pictures of TG pretending that the Leaf had broken down and had to be pushed by students, but goes on to say that the footage wasn't actually going to be used in the programme. I didn't see all of the show - was it used?
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Yes. They're also whinging in the Mail that they parked in a disabled bay !
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>> Yes. They're also whinging in the Mail that they parked in a disabled bay !
Oh well. I did see the start of the feature where IIRC they said it was time for a serious look at electric vehicles and that there was going to be 'no cocking around'.
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>> Yes. They're also whinging in the Mail that they parked in a disabled bay !
In The Telegraph it says "the programme had permission from the owners of the car park to use the bays for a short period of time to enable filming to take place unhindered, and members of the production team were with the cars at all times. There were other disabled spaces available, and of course had anyone needed to park in one of the spaces occupied by Top Gear, we would have moved immediately."
tinyurl.com/3ldzp5g
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>> In The Telegraph it says "the programme had permission..................>>
Two versions of the same story, now there is a surprise!
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Of course it was biased. It was always going to be. "Uneventful journey in Electric car" does not make for eventful television. The old "william woolard top gear" might have done that, but that's why no-one watched it and it disappeared.
Lets be honest, you don't decide to take a car you know has a 100 mile range, on a 200 mile journey without planning the recharge, unless you plan to break down.
I saw a leaf the other week in a car park. Its actually a good looking car, with a really nice interior.
Had they built it as a hybrid it would be flooding out the dealers.
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>> Of course it was biased. It was always going to be. "Uneventful journey in Electric
>> car" does not make for eventful television. The old "william woolard top gear" might have
>> done that, but that's why no-one watched it and it disappeared.
That's fair enough, but then I'm a bit surprised they went out of their way to say at the start that it was going to be a 'serious' piece.
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>> That's fair enough, but then I'm a bit surprised they went out of their way
>> to say at the start that it was going to be a 'serious' piece.
Its Top Gear, I never bought that line even as it was totted out.
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I actually thought the Top Gear piece was very fair.
They praised the car, and exposed the lack of charging infrastructure, albeit in their usual flippant manner. Surely, this is nothing more than the reality of the situation. Clarkson called the Leaf "a good car", and praised its comfort, noise levels and build quality.
I don't consider the lack of charging points a fault of the car, but it is something that has a drastic impact on the ownership prospect of an EV, and is surely something that any potential buyer of needs to be aware of.
I came away from the programme thinking that the Leaf was quite a cool product, but sadly lacking the infrastructure to support it at this exact moment in time. A pretty accurate picture, surely.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 2 Aug 11 at 11:22
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Range anxiety will stop the take up of these cars until we get much greater battery capacity.
I used to commute from Cheltenham to Swindon, 33 mile each way - ideal for a Leaf, and I could charge an electric car at the office for free - sounds like a no brainer, but once a month there will be a huge tail back at the "Air Balloon" (if you don't know it you must have heard about it on the radio traffic alerts) - I've been stuck there for hours in the past, usually either the hottest day of the year or in deep snow, imagine sitting there with no heater or aircon, worrying what you will do in the middle of nowhere when the battery finally gives up.
MPZ
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I cant see why makes of electric cars have not made the roofs out of solar cells. That piddly little on the leaf would just about run the fan, but a larger one would certainly take some of the ancillary load off.
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>> I cant see why makes of electric cars have not made the roofs out of
>> solar cells. That piddly little on the leaf would just about run the fan, but
>> a larger one would certainly take some of the ancillary load off.
>>
Prius has a solar roof option, and it covers the whole roof. Available now.
But it still only runs the aircon when you're not in the car. They've not yet got enough useful oomph out of it to charge the batteries, although they are working on it, apparently.
So if Toyota can't make it work yet, I guess it can't sensibly be done with today's technology at an even faintly sensible price.
Lots of mentions on the web - one example:
green.autoblog.com/2009/08/13/toyota-prius-solar-sunroof-much-more-popular-than-planned/
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>> and I could charge an electric car at the office for free
At some point employers will clamp down on this. Why should they pay to charge everyone's cars for free? They won't pay your petrol/diesel to get to work (unless you have a fuel card that covers private mileage).
In fact health and safety would have something to say about running wires across ground - companies would need to install charging points.
The bit I still don't get is how these make sense given the cost. One could buy a similar sized diesel car to the Leaf for considerably less. The difference will pay for a lot of diesel. And you won't need new £19k batteries either.
At when/if these get popular the £5000 government grant will go too so the cost will rise.
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the company had installed proper charging bays in their car park and encouraged their use as part of the "green" credentials - I never saw them being used though.
MPZ
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>> at this exact moment in time.
>>
Or do you mean 'now'?
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Alas you are too late, it would now of course be then.
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I see they omitted the disabled bays by clever camera trickery in the mid week repeat.
Also I see Andy Wilman (the programme's executive producer) has issued an apology.
He urged those who were angry with the show to direct their complaints towards the production staff, rather than the presenters, noting that Clarkson and May had expressed concerns about using the bays.
tinyurl.com/3hqld23 (links to www.metro.co.uk)
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>> noting that Clarkson and May had expressed concerns about using the bays.
'Oh God, James, they've put us on the disabled bays. Every sanctimonious halfwit in the country is going to hit us round the head with the nearest cripple.'
'But the car park's almost empty. There are 16 empty disabled bays right here.'
"That won't stop the idiots. OI SPADGER! Can we take this shot somewhere else please?'
(Spadger): 'NO!'
'Oh God. Got any dope James?'
'No.'
'Oh God....'
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I personally don't think it's a problem, but if the great JC and May thought it was, surely they have enough editorial clout to make a stand.
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Editorial? Ptui!
Production is what rules the roost in an enduring manner.
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Did anybody see Top Gear last night?
The program seemed to be from 2010 but I don't remember seeing it before.
Was it just one that I missed?
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Yes, a repeat.
Here's the unseen footage of the German saloon sport cars fuel economy race that wasn't shown on the TV.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRslmNy27kc
(I previously mentioned it in another TG thread)
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=2595&m=83934
edit - it's been removed. Sorry.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 10:38
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July 17th - Duncan
