OK, it's been a while since we did this one ! Tastes and fashions change so there might be some lively discussion value if nothing else....
So here's the motion.
"Saloon cars are an outdated outmoded and redundant design clinging to automotive styling values no longer relevant. ( And they are ugly )"
Hatchbacks are much more versatile
Coupes are prettier
Estates are much more useful
Even MPVs are handier
Convertibles are fun
SUVs are useful to some people and can look nice
Saloons, therefore are past their sell by date and anyone who buys one is a boring old flatulent
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Saloons look good though IMO. Granted they're not as versatile as a hatch and their residuals are not as good as a hatch on non-premium brands.
To confound your statement the latest Toyota Avensis only comes in saloon or 'tourer' IIRC.
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My Mondeo is a saloon.
Hatchbacks are for girlies.
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Well, if it's a Mondeo that's just about OK I guess. You'd have been better with an estate though. Classier.
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My C5 is saloon or tourer only - personally I think the C5 is one of the better looking cars on the road today
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Anything above a 1 Series is saloon or touring only - says something when they sell as many BMWs as they do Mondeos (allegedly)
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Dead easy to make a sentence including the words "German" and "quality". Much harder to make one including "German" and "style"......
S'pose there are exceptions
:-)
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The 335 coupe is the most stylish car in the range, but I guess it's disqualified. If Carlsburg made engines they'd make that one...
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mikeyb... as the only other person I've seen on here admitting to a new C5 how are you getting on with yours... wonder how long you've had it?
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>> mikeyb... as the only other person I've seen on here admitting to a new C5
>> how are you getting on with yours... wonder how long you've had it?
>> My biking pal has just traded his C5 estate in...lovely car, auto/diesel/leather, etc.....What's he got ? A saloon.....a Plumber's Bentley !
Pity they don't supply a sump plug, dropped all it's oil with 120 miles on the clock. ( not the fault of being a saloon, of course ).
Ted
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>> mikeyb... as the only other person I've seen on here admitting to a new C5
>> how are you getting on with yours... wonder how long you've had it?
>>
Really pleased with it - its 11 months old now and no problems. I have the (whipsers quietly) 1.6 HDi version, but it keeps turning in around 54 mpg with ease and can nudge towards 60 on a gentle run. Sometimes I think it would be nicer to have a little more power, but its adequte for my needs. I opted for the parking sensors which was a good choice - the overhangs can be difficult to predict. Overall very pleased with it, and you dont see to many about although a neighbour about 10 doors up go one a few days before me!
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Interesting mikey.
Mine is a 1.6HDi too... no shame in that. My current journeys are short so I'm happy just getting a flat 50mpg or thereabouts. Good choice on specing the parking sensors... mine hasn't and needs very careful placement to avoid things.
Like you there are almost none about here. I see the same two in the local town (one being my relative's) regularly but haven't even seen another one in the 3 months I've owned it.
No problems here either. All that travel in it are most impressed as I am each and every day. A real "don't let the word get out too much or they'll all want one" car.
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The shape of saloons lens itself to larger boot floor areas - my Escort saloon had a stupidly big boot compared with the hatch.
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>> My Mondeo is a saloon.
>>
>> Hatchbacks are for girlies.
>>
Well said. I had to search out my Mondeo Saloon but well worth waiting for.
IMO the MkII looks complete but the hatch looks like roof to rear lights has been quickly filled in ( badly)
Saloons are quieter, have a stiffer body and offer greater security for contents.
Brits seem to be in the minority liking hatchbacks.
Where are the hoards of large hatchbacks?
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Well in the UK at least they've pretty much dies out in the medium size sector, round my way at least, hardly any Focus/Astra/Megane/Golf saloons. Do Citreon make any C3/4/5 saloons? maybe the latter.
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I had a Nova saloon as my first car, meant I had cheap insurance and a decent sized boot. I'd say bring back small saloons only I need more space for the kids nowadays.
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Hatchbacks are horrid little graceless things resembling insects that can open their backs to swallow other insects wholesale.
Passengers squashed tight in such a dreadful vehicle suffer severe ear torment and all heat is sucked out of the internals when the rear jaws open and slam closed again.
Coupe's can be pretty so long as they are based on a particularly pretty saloon, a good example of this is the 124 MB one of the loveliest coupe's ever made;) beautiful coupe's do have rear seats but the space isn't meant for rear seat passengers they are there to allow full reclining of the luxurious front seats for the tender loving of the loveliest of ladies unable to resist the pleasures such a car can bring, which of course is swmbo who is watching as i type.
Estates are vans in posh frocks.
MPV's are chosen by insecure females who resemble chaps who insist on their husbands driving round in appalling looking tin cans that advertise their captive status.
Convertibles are lovely where the weathers always sunny and the countryside roads empty, not practical and too easily damaged by toe rags.
SUV's are great especially the more industrial no nonsense versions, pick ups especially attractive in blue, again swmbo is lurking.
Saloons are the epitomy of classy travel, quiet insulated from the world in plush comfort.
Passengers cosseted in safety and warmth, able to relax and stretch their legs and hardly notice the chauffeur open or close the huge expanse of soundproofed boot, luggage and other items locked away from the prying eyes of envious people who fell prey to the false marketing that lent them to buy lesser vehicles.
Saloons are bought by those with taste.
There thats nearly everyone insulted, and i'm in swmbo's good books too so nurrgh.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 1 Apr 10 at 21:14
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>>
>> Saloons are bought by those with taste.
>>
Chrysler 300C / Plumber's Bentley
( although I rather like them)
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>> Chrysler 300C / Plumber's Bentley
Ah well spotted SC, saloons except for American monstrosity's trying in vain to copy British makes that used to be tasteful.
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Pure poetry, Gordon.
Pure poetry.
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>> Chrysler 300C / Plumber's Bentley
I thought only the estates were Plumber's Bentleys.
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The last saloon (sounds like a Western) I had was the ole 240GLT and that wasn't too many moons ago.
I perceive saloons as being safer cos they're stronger at the rear end (I may be wrong)
I prefer the shape of a coupe ( 4 looks)
I quite like tourer's (BM etc.) but they are just 'jumped up' esates really.
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Estates are the choice of a gentleman. Saloons are for accountants and cigarette reps.
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>> Estates are the choice of a gentleman
Bring back Shooting Brakes.
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>> They do not make them like that anymore !
>>
That's progress for you ...
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>>I quite like tourer's (BM etc.) but they are just 'jumped up' esates really.
Not so much 'jumped up' as 'squashed down'.
Last edited by: crocks on Thu 1 Apr 10 at 21:28
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>> Hatchbacks are horrid little graceless things resembling insects that can open their backs to swallow
>> other insects wholesale. Swmbo is lurking.
>>
>> Saloons are the epitomy of classy travel quiet insulated from the world in plush comfort.
>> Passengers cosseted in safety and warmth able to relax and stretch their legs and hardly
>> notice the chauffeur open or close the huge expanse of soundproofed boot luggage and other
>> items locked away from the prying eyes of envious people who fell prey to the
Motion!! Andrew Motion eat ya Heart out. GB is the man now.
MD
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I much prefer a hatch or estate at home for versatility, but on holiday saloons are great to hire. A VW Polo Classic can get two big and two small suitcases into its boot, which a Polo hatch couldn't have.
That at least is objective - we'll never agree on style (that's no reason not to discuss it though!). Would it be reasonably uncontroversial to say that the longer a car is, the better it looks as a saloon? I can't imagine, for example, what an E-class hatchback would look like, but to my eyes it looks fine as a saloon or estate.
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Adam had a saloon. As the arbiter for bad taste, No more need be said.
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>> Adam had a saloon. As the arbiter for bad taste No more need be said.
>>
And the choice of colour was.....
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Look, I have a dog. I cant shut her in the boot of a saloon.
(careful how you reply, Nicole knows where you live)
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When I came to look at a new C5 late last year I thought I may have a hatch to replace my Mondeo estate now we don't carry quite so much (long term house renovation at an end). We'd been so busy on other things I'd not even noticed since it was introduced that the C5 was a saloon or tourere now... no hatch was quite a shock so it had to be a tourer for the occasional large tip run.
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>> no hatch was quite a shock so it had to be a tourer
Quite so ! ( and it looks nicer )
Anyway, tonight's prize for wordsmithery does indeed go to GB. However, while I wouldn't for one moment question his integrity in these matters of bodystyle. He has a coupe and a pickup. The case for the motion, I confidently feel, is building in strength.....
:-)
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I love the look of the best saloons (the classic 3-box shape and all that) , but they are just too impractical for me.
I regularly carry boxy-shaped things around, so I need practicality. Up until now, I've always had hatchbacks, which have met my needs perfectly.
I've got an estate now, because it was either that or a saloon with BMW. I respect what estates can do, but I think they look extremely unattractive (too much like a hearse...*shiver*). Plus you have to pay a hefty premium for them. I won't buy another estate.
My ideal car would be a large-ish coupe with a hatch. The VW Passat CC would be great if it had a hatch instead of a boot.
Oh! and 4WD would be nice, and it must be an automatic.
I guess that my next car will have to be a large hatchback: Octavia, Mondeo, Insignia, Laguna, Mazda 6...anything else?
Shouldn't complain really - some very good cars in that list.
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My next car could well be an Audi. I like the A5 Sportback a lot but the A4 is a lot cheaper on the company scheme. My car isn't due to be replaced until October 2011 mind!
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I loved my A4 Avant, and that or an A5 Sportback are possibilities for Londoner. So - and a lot cheaper - is the Skoda Superb (hatch or estate) if he needs more room than an Octavia. And if he does, the Mondeo comes into contention.
But, fond as I was of my Audi, there really isn't much that it did that my current Octavia can't. I'd say that the feelgood factor that an Audi gives you is worth another £1,000; the better resale value another £1,000-2,000 - but an Audi of equivalent enginne and spec costs £6,000 more than an Octavia.
Possibly that difference isn't so marked with a leasing scheme because pf residuals.
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Every word of that is good stuff! I did some research on the Skoda Superb. Lovely car which is (on topic) a saloon AND a hatch. Bit too big though, like the Mondeo.
Why does every generation of car get relentlessly bigger?
The Audi A5 Hatchback is nice, and you can get 4WD with it, but you get an Octavia for thousands of pounds less that has more boot space and a rear wiper.
(Back on topic - another black mark against saloons - no rear wiper)
Octavia is definitely a front runner. DSG gearbox + Excellent Diesel Engines, all the VW toys, well-built, and the thinking man's car. Oh - and much better dealers than average.
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No Skodas are good value on our scheme. I would have to seriously consider an Octavia estate too. I could save a lot of money each month with one of those or spec it up etc and not be worse off.
I like the new Superb estate a lot (not the saloon/hatch) but I think it is too big. Again tonight I parked in city centre Manchester on Market Street (car park next to/under the Ramada). A Superb might be a little too big to part there when it's busy...
Warning thread drift: The production of a Comedy of Errors is very good at the Royal Exchange. It was also short (finished by 9:10pm). Hence the parking in Manchester tonight. And the car parking is reduced a bit on Market Street if you put your ticket in the machine at the theatre box office.... there was a time it went all wrong and parking ended up free.
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Hatchbacks look as if the designers had started off designing a nice elegant car, starting from the front, but then had a sudden panic as the allocated metal ran out so they had to suddenly chop off the intended back.
OK for golf buggies or lunar exploration vehicles, or those old pale blue disabled trikes, but hardly elegant motor cars.
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Apart from Minis, I've only owned three saloons: -
A Marina, which was, well, a Marina;
A Belmont, which was worse than the Marina;
An Orion, which was actually quite a good car.
The problem with a number of saloons I think is that they're very obviously a car designed as a hatchback with a boot tacked on the backend. In the case of the Orion that worked well, but the Belmont certainly did not. I can't really comment on modern saloons as I can't recall driving one recently.
Family and work mean that a saloon is out of the question now, but even without those restrictions I'd still prefer a hatch or even MPV just for the practicality.
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A hatch, an estate, a cab and a little rear engined something for the weekend, all ports covered (I never did see the point of a people carrier - an estate with a high roof often bought for need when the first child arrives weighing a hefty 8lbs 2 ozs).
The fact that 2 out of 4 are sorn has no relevance.......................
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Fair enough Cliff. Hard to fault that point. Indeed, on reflection, some larger saloons can cut a dash in a quaintly outmoded way, but even they remain compromised by the limitations of their design. Small saloons are just silly and can only be driven by librarians. With beards.
There are some pretty medium sized ones such as Alfa 159s but they are so much bettered in the real world of usefulness by their estate or "sportwagon" bodied stablemates.
We have yet to hear of any credible argument for the continued existance of saloons other than that a small minority seem to be aesthetically pleased by them.
What indeed are they for ?
:-)
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Goodness me why don't people with no taste just admit their failings..;)
Saloons are for the transport of those who appreciate the better things in life, elegance refinement tranquility security and isolation from the hullaballoo going on around them.
Proper saloons are designed for rear seat passengers with gentle damped suspensions, room to stretch out comfortably, head room to spare good visibilty to enable the appreciative and fortunate rear occupants to enjoy their relaxed view of the world as the are wafted in serene quiet to their next destination of pleasure.
This refined way of travel does not exist in other forms of road transport, either the MPV (small bus) or the estate car (fancy van) and certainly not the cramped thorax of the hatchback (insect).
One exists in another form of vehicle, one travels in a saloon.
The only improvement of the saloon is the better class of stretch saloon.
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A fine word-picture there, GB, of the original meaning of saloon (salon in the meaning of drawing-room/). There's something trtanquil and leisurely about a saloon, as opposed to hatchback hurry or people-carrier panic or four-wheel-drive force.
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Indeed it is hard to refute your insightful comments re MPVs and hatchbacks GB despite their undoubted utilitarian credentials.
The estate, however, is the choice of the rounded man. The man who recognises that he in the same day may be called upon to present an elegant and professional persona, closely followed by conducting his duties as a parent and showing his ability to be practical as well as cerebral.
How awfully inelegant for example it would be when parked at a point to point or motor racing event to attempt to sit in the boot area of a humble saloon while simultaneously dealing with and sharing one's cucumber sandwiches and flask of darjeerling. An estate provides not only a suitable and sheltered viewing platform for such eventualities but can then whisk its occupants in an airy and confident manner to their next destination.
The estate, far from being a comfotable van is in fact the choice of the wise and informed motorist.
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Estates always stink of wet dogs.
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>> Estates always stink of wet dogs.
>>
Estates (and hatchbacks) always have an irritating rattle (no not one from Manchester!)
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>> Estates always stink of wet dogs.
and saloons are the default choice of mini cab drivers......
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>> Estates always stink of wet dogs.
Yeah, have to admit - mine do
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>> The estate far from being a comfotable van is in fact the choice of the
>> wise and informed motorist.
Elegantly phrased old bean, i understand you may have a penchant for a shooting brake at some point though doubtless this has in no was influenced your view.
I shall give the matter some thought, however i may be some time my son has just turned up with his sporting saloon complete with front mount intercooler and ECU and some other parts apparently designed to push the inadequate 300hp to around 350hp, yes it weighs under a ton too....this may not be the type of saloon i referred to earlier.
Toodle pip for now chaps.
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I have a BMW 530d estate as a company car, previously I had the saloon version. The estate is heavier, noticeably noisier and the amazing handling of the saloon loses a little of its edge in the estate version. I took the estate because the leasing rate was the same as the saloon and I was convinced the additional versatility would be advantageous. In practice I've folded the seats down on one single occasion. I also find the estate version of the E60 is starting to look dated whereas the saloon version still looks as radically modern and eyecatchingly stylish as when it was launched 7 years ago. My next company car will be a saloon or a coupe.
You've chosen a bad example with the Alfs 159. In order for the estate to look like anything other than a box on wheels it's ended up with a boot that has about half the capacity (with the seats in place) of the saloon.
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Have you ever seen a chauffeur driven hatchback?
Argument won.
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Saloons & coupes (and maybe roadsters/convertibles) hit the mark with me - anything else tends to make you look a tradesperson/travelling salesperson or family with supermarket/DIY store- itis.
Saloons are quite practical these days - split-fold rear seats/ski hatches (invaluable!) etc.
Security & road noise suppression is generally better too - and you don't have to share the passenger compartment with boot loads or general detritus.
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All very well in theory of course but how could anyone find a suitable location within the confines of a saloon to peel a quail's egg at a gymkhana for example ? ....and how pray would one transport Great Aunt Mabel's antique Chesterfield to the upholsterers or indeed back to the Dower House in a saloon ? Folding ski seats indeed ! Preposterous !
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Well, of course, slightly tongue-in-cheek M. D'bout. Chesterfield? - One would have the upholsterers pick it up - from the mews entrance, naturally. Gymkhana? Yes tricky I have to admit - but I believe pre-peeled quails eggs can be purchased from F&M these days to cover such eventualities.
Oh yes - ski flaps. I added that so that so I didn't seem too out of touch with the ordinary folk on here.
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One can not arrive at the weekend shoot with a saloon, Extracting a pair of purdies and a pair of labradors from the boot of a saloon is rather like lifting the lid of and inserting ones hand down a toilet bowl......
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"Have you ever seen a chauffeur driven hatchback?"
Yes - ministers and senior civil servants being driven around London in Priuses.
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Yes ministers driven around in 3.5 rover SD1s, and Austin Princess's.
Lets not get carried away by the Skoda superb Its a HATCHBACK. disguise it how you want with what ever fancy door or windows you like, its still a HATCHBACK.
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Oh come now, when one is attending a country event a chariot more purposeful will be used, the saloon isn't meant for jodhpurs and tweed hacking jackets.
saloon comforts are meant for the caressing and protection of the elegantly dressed lady and providing a position of authority for her lord and master the gentleman.
Back to the Scoob...
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Zero.
>> Lets not get carried away by the Skoda superb Its a HATCHBACK. disguise it how you want with what ever fancy door or windows you like, its still a HATCHBACK.
Yes, you are right - it is a hatchback.
But (and this is a BIG "but") it LOOKS like a saloon. It's the best of both worlds. The versatility of a hatchback, but without looking like one.
What's not to like? :-)
PS and it's a Skoda, to boot (GROAN)
Last edited by: Londoner on Fri 2 Apr 10 at 13:41
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The only reason for saloons is silence, boot security and body rigidity. They are no blessed with looks.
Alas then in this case the Superb is the WORSE of all worlds.
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>> The only reason for saloons is silence boot security and body rigidity. They are no
>> blessed with looks.
>>
Zero, you are asserting an opinion as if it were a fact.
I LOVE the look of saloons. However, you don't like the look of saloons, and that's fair enough. OTOH, you argue in favour of estate cars - and I can't stand them (even though I drive one). All taste is personal, and equally valid.
I respect your opinion, and hope that you respect mine. We can BOTH be right on an issue like this, can't we? ;-)
Last edited by: Londoner on Fri 2 Apr 10 at 14:14
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I dont love estates. I have one for its practicality. However, most saloons look like a shoebox with a wart on its bum.
>We can BOTH be right on an issue like this, can't we
Of course not, Its my DUTY to educate your, clearly poor, sense of taste.
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I've been looking forward to bit of aesthetic fascism from my Kamikaze friend... he likes some people carriers I seem to remember.
'People carriers look like toasters with seven warts actually up their bums', as he might remark if he had proper taste and liked large saloon cars like a proper person.
Evil smirk.
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>> I've been looking forward to bit of aesthetic fascism from my Kamikaze friend... he likes
>> some people carriers I seem to remember.
Alas my ancient mariner friend, age doeth wicked things to your memory.
You will not find any musings or devlish jottings of mine that state I like the aesthetics of people carriers.
Perhaps you could lecture at the ifithelps school of journalism?
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...Perhaps you could lecture at the ifithelps school of journalism?...
Zero,
Who would you rather be failed by, me or Lud?
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Nah, just make up a pass.
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...just make up a pass...
Mmm, much as the faculty needs to keep numbers up - funding and all that - I just don't quite see you as a model student, Zero.
Can't quite put me finger on it, but I fear you may not take our watchwords of 'speed and accuracy' seriously enough.
Perhaps you might like to try elsewhere for a degree in public relations?
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...or politics perhaps...
Both equally useless in my view.
With that jaundiced sense of humour, maybe we should find a place for you after all.
Having to learn shorthand is a bind, mind.
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>> You will not find any musings or devlish jottings of mine that state I like the aesthetics of people carriers.
I thought the Altea was a sort of compressed people carrier. Looked like a toaster all right.
:o}
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Seat called it an Estate.
All cars are people carriers. But honestly old man, I mean really, One can not speak from the postion of having a modern(ish) hatchback made to look retro.
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>> if he had proper taste and liked large saloon cars like a proper person.
Dear me AC, you had me going there, I was almost disappointed in you until the penny dropped that you were just being impish. Of course you understand, I realise that now......
Egg?
:-)
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Reinstate your disappointment Humph. I like saloon cars, large ones for preference.
Hatchbacks are practical and most of us have them. With the means, you can have a nice quiet dignified non-rattling non-drumming non-floppy non-cramped saloon with legroom and cigar lighters, and a Transit or Sprinter for when you are being practical.
Heavy sigh.
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In all fairness AC you are not to be blamed for clinging on to the fashions of yesteryear. It is a common trait in those.....of a certain vintage....
Bit like beige trousers.
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You could get one of these.
limofan.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/pink-pt-cruiser-limo.jpg
Plenty of legroom, room for the longest of loads and you could make a few bob on a Saturday night.
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That's quite horrible crocks. Must be very slow too with a standard engine.
I have seen a pink Cruiser, a bit darker than that one, and I thought it looked pretty good, for a lady of course.
It's all very well for Zero to tease me about having one of those, but I was given it, only 50k miles and in very good nick, with leather and a/c and all the toys. So I don't complain about its dynamic shortcomings.
If I had had to buy another car to replace the Escort, now looking a bit mossy, it wouldn't have been a Cruiser, but it might have been a bit of a heap of excrement too given the earnings of elderly scribes hounded from pillar to post and cursed with extravagant habits and only a pinch of the shrewdness that serves Zero so well. It's not a great drive but it's all right, and the looks may be controversial, but fortunately I quite like them.
£500 to the body shop yesterday, ouch, but it looks pristine now.
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I'm only teasing too. I don't like stretched cars - either too chavvy or funereal.
It's all too easy for those that just have to point at a catalogue and say "I'll have one of those". As a man of limited means I have to take praticality and cost into account so am unlikely to have another saloon unless it's given to me. If it's free I'll take anything!
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>>
>> Of course not Its my DUTY to educate your clearly poor sense of taste.
>>
Is that your rather elegant way of telling me to "Get Lost"?
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>> >>
>> >> Of course not Its my DUTY to educate your clearly poor sense of taste.
>>
>> >>
>> Is that your rather elegant way of telling me to "Get Lost"?
Oh that I would be so crude!
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I'm kinda the motoring version of the little ole lady who lived in a shoe as I've owned so many cars I actually can't remember them all (Oldteimers disease?)
Because of this ere thread I've just remembered a smashing mota I had about 9 years ago,
Saab 900 - beautifully designed (IMO) as a Hatchback and a really great car.
Only trouble was - mine had one of them funny things at the rear (Das boot) it looked awful :(
Out of all the cars I've owned - I've never owned an estate car, and never wanted to either.
I've owned more than a few saloon cars, but really I'm a Fastback type of guy.
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Isn't a Superb what car designers call a 'notchback'?
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Hatchback, notchback or hunchback *- the Superb has been underestimated by buyers, but I have a feeling that the Combi estate will sell a lot better and perhaps even become fashionable among the country set.
Most of them are practical types who will either want a 4x4 or a big estate (or perhaps an estate plus a Defender): they will see the point of the Superb Combi rather than paying thousands extra for a Swedish tank or German taxi.
* It would be nice to think that a manufacturer might one day be brave enough to name a car a Quasimodo.....
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Just thought it might be timely to remind those who fell for current fashion what a proper saloon based coupe should look like..;)
s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/cowithagun/?action=view¤t=IMG_1652.jpg
i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/cowithagun/IMG_1652.jpg
Links edited so they'll work
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Apr 10 at 00:25
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That will do nicely C, assuming the pictoral record of my most recent visit to saucy sarah's heavy petting parlour isn't still there..;)
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I'm usually useless with computers and don't know how to upload photos yet.
However I surprised myself by sorting that link out.
A very nice looking coupe but a little large for my tastes.
P.S. Couldn't see any cats or dogs ;-)
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>> P.S. Couldn't see any cats or dogs ;-)
>>
Manged (think about it) to edit them sharpish.;)
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...Is this the link you meant?...
I didn't realise Mercs had beam axles and leaf springs. :)
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That'll be a saloon based one Iffy.
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Coupes are indeed attractive. They make no pretence to practicality and stand proud upon their aesthetics. Saloons can claim no such pleasing attributes. They are quite simply yesterday's solution to a problem which no longer exists. Like woollen vests.
It might be soon upon us to commend this to the vote unless there are some remainng crumbs of weak argument to come from the other side of the house ?
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No one would deny that coupes are attractive, and there are some world-class beauties among them, for anyone with a long, well-stocked memory.
But they shout, or murmur seductively, 'Look at me, I'm young and beautiful and can afford the superfluous.'
It's the anonymity of saloons I like, their discretion. Proper ones like my old Bentley had metal rear quarters behind which retiring back-seat passengers could lurk, with lights and cigar lighters to hand. A six-light small saloon on a Rolls Phantom II, real road presence and able to pick up its skirts and run, sublime.
But you don't have to have anything grand. A depressed-goldfish scorpio24v would be great if you could find a decent one. Many of the better American cars from the thirties, forties, fifties and sixties are magnificent saloons. And it would seem that rich people whose motoring is subsidised or who can afford anything quite like mimsing around in big Mercs and Lexuses.
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I've always preferred saloons, to me they look nicer.... and there's no chance of rattles from the hatch back area, which with my extreme pedantism, would annoy the hell out of me.
I'm with AC/Lud on the big saloon bit...and i don't have any beige trousers either.
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Granted they have their place at one level as mini cabs and at another as wedding cars or for the discreet delivering of obese plutocrats but as a mode of personal transport for a man of taste and style.....well, politeness forfends further comment.
:-)
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A gentleman is one who keeps whatever baggage he is carrying discretely away from public view, like the manner in which he keeps the lid on his dustbin; therefore his choice of car has to be a saloon.
Hatchbacks have always struck me as being very "Geezer", something you'd expect to find outside a Romford nightclub.
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Couldn't agree more re hatchbacks Robin and your point is well made re saloons especially if one's luggage isn't quite up to snuff what ?
No, the fact emerges, as I have long suspected, that the proper choice for a man of the world is an estate. He may choose to drive a coupe in his younger years if he is an enthusiast but like t-shirts, there comes a time when they are no longer appropriate.
I think that about covers it.
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>> A gentleman is one who keeps whatever baggage he is carrying discretely away from public
>> view like the manner in which he keeps the lid on his dustbin; therefore his
>> choice of car has to be a saloon.
>>
As my posts up-thread indicate, I am in the pro-Saloon camp, but I don't understand your point. In all the hatchbacks that I've ever had, nobody could ever see what I had in the boot. Why are you claiming that only saloons keep the luggage out of view? :confused:
Are we going to have a vote on this, then? If so, how do we do it?
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Easy. We'll meet in the Saloon and shoot it out.
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No need for that Martin. As OP I feel comfortable in my authority to examine all the excellent and well made points for the motion and indeed to take into account the mildly interesting but sadly rather weak mumblings against it and to make a balanced and fair impartial judgement on the matter.
I'm off for a swim now so if anyone has anything to add in conclusion......
:-)
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Can't agree. That Tonsorial Artist Vidal Saloon had one and he was a cut above the rest!
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...I'm off for a swim now...
Will you be putting your trunks in the boot?
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>> Hatchbacks have always struck me as being very "Geezer" something you'd expect to find outside
>> a Romford nightclub.
And Saloons are parked out the back by the shady underworld firgure who runs the Romford nightclub
Lets face it - ANY car seen in Romford is a no no.
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No no Z, the saloon boot will be used for shooters and bodies, the guvnor will drive a RR sport with blacked aart winda's.
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You lot make I larf. And all the better for it.
The difference between Men and Boys is the price of their toys.
This site is G R E A T.
MD
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Isn't it ?
OK - Using OP's rights I'll declare a draw
Don't mistake this for any form of placatory gesture, it's only so we can have a re-match in a few months !
Happy Easter !
:-)
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I was thinking about the fact that I've owned over 40 cars and not a single one of them has been an estate.
Now I'm a fairly normal sort of chap really, so it got me thinking about the sort of person who actually chooses to pay out money for a distorted car like this one ~
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rover_3500_Estate_rear.jpg
And I've come to the conclusion that they have got something to hide, they are dodgy people and certainly not to be trusted with State secrets (IMO)
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...money for a distorted car like this one...
The rear door looks well distorted.
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>>
>> The rear door looks well distorted.
>>
I can't make my mind up whether that's a slight ding in the door or a reflection.
I think they only made a couple of these, which is probably just as well:-
andysbitsandpieces.fotopic.net/p3361986.html
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I've just totted up and we've had 11 estates from 67 cars.... my last 3 cars being estates and not a saloon in sight for the last 30 cars. We do just too many *things* to manage with a saloon.
It was true 25yrs ago estates were prone to rattles and noise, plus of course everything you carried was on show... now taking my C5 Tourer as a very modern estate there is no noise at all from the rear loadspace and the well fitting roller blind effectively seals the load away like a boot anyway.
BTW those Crayford Rover estates, as with many Crayford efforts, were a bit odd... what did you Google *worse looking estate car*?
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 3 Apr 10 at 10:59
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>>> what did you Google *worse looking estate car*? <<<
Sorry Fenlander, is this one any better ~ www.aronline.co.uk/index.htm?avonxj6f.htm
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Reminds me of a Ssangyong rhodius
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Here's nice shooting brake.
tinyurl.com/y8c53uc
Suit you , Sir ?
Ted
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I am told the Germans in particular have a dislike of hatchbacks. I think it 's a snobby thing as owning one suggests you can only afford one car and so have bought one to suit most circumstances. This might be borne out by evidence of few BMW, Audi and Mercedes hatchbacks. VW is the lower cost German brand and the VW Golf offered a hatchback but I can't remember if there were any before this time.
For me it goes without saying - there was, is, and always be only one proper body style.
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>> For me it goes without saying - there was is and always be only one
>> proper body style.
Chariot and a pair?
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Coupe de ville? Landaulet? Barchetta? Old saloon with the rear of the body chiselled off and replaced with a truckbed made from old packing cases? Matatu? Pickup truck? Combine Harvester? Tell us for heaven's sake.
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I think, although I can't be absolutely certain, but it would seem likely....might just be a small clue in Dulwich's "handle" AC........
:-)
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I can understand the attraction of an estate car, the practicality and the usefulness of the van but with a couple of port holes in the rear to spruce it up a bit, and some covered bits of foam for unsuspecting victims to perch upon whilst being subjected to that appalling goods vehicle ride, maybe there's some perverse pleasure gained by subjecting ones family to such treatment.
I can't for the life of me get the obsession with hatchbacks, i can see the need for shortening the back end a bit, they don't appeal to anyone with the slightest enthusiasm for driving being mobile white goods and that pesky back end would only clobber other cars or fences when they abandon the thing.
How many really need the vast carrying capacity.;).;) of the hatch, Argos now do home delivery so they won't need all that space for exotic jewelry, fleeces and tacky bottoms from the market can be thrown anywhere.
Doesn't matter how you try to flower it up, the saloon is for the discerning motorist, the coupe derived from the saloon for graduates of the Don Juan school of romance.
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More like the Alfie Elkins school of romance.....
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Before my time Z, did he drive a hatchback?
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I know who he is and it seems he was a cad, jus wondering if he had wheels and if so does your memory recall which sort.
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he had no wheels
Nor did Don Juan
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 3 Apr 10 at 20:57
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I've given this matter great thought with particular attention to what gordon b has to say,
but I have come to the conclusion that (for moi) a well designed hatchback is the way to go.
By which, I mean something along the lines of a Saab 900 2 door coupe.
A hatch back encompasses estate car load carrying capacity, with saloon car passenger capacity,
plus the aesthetics of a coupe = ideal.
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Saloons are for those caught in a Terry and June lifestyle timewarp from when they symbolised an "executive" along with fondue sets, unfortunate sideburns and loud ties.
Hatchbacks are for the masses
Coupes are for ageing lotharios
MPVs are for women in their breeding years
Estates are for grown up, active real men.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sat 3 Apr 10 at 20:46
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>> Estates are for grown up active real men.
>>
So thats why I own one. :-)
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I just have two things to say
lancia Beta HPE
Reliant Scimitar GTE
Nuff said, argument over, Turn out the lights, close the door.
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>> Estates are for grown up, active real men.
Estates are for grown up, active real men, with no aesthetic taste at all.
Amusing summary though, Humph! :-)
Where would you put the "Sportback" concept in your list?
I think the Audi A5 seems to be the best of many worlds - it's a quality coupe, but the hatch gives it versatility. What's not to like? (Apart from the outrageous price, of course!)
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...What's not to like...
You have to be a wannabe big businessman to drive one.
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>> You have to be a wannabe big businessman to drive one.
Well, I'd love one, if I had the money.
And I'm not a "wannabe big businessman" - just an old-fashioned blue collar type.
Just a humble pawn in the game of life. (copyright "Blazing Saddles")
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>>whilst being subjected to that appalling goods vehicle ride
Of course, excepting those stylish well engineered estates with a decent self levelling system, which have both a good ride AND the ability to carry heavy loads.
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>> Of course excepting those stylish well engineered estates with a decent self levelling system which
>> have both a good ride AND the ability to carry heavy loads.
There are exceptions always, strangely enough our old TE was at the indies getting tinkered with a couple of weeks ago when i collected the CE, broke my heart to see it, filthy it was and being used as a builders van with windows.
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>> might just be a small clue in Dulwich's "handle" AC........
Ooh, aaah, I never twigged that zquoire... What be they Dulwiches then? Chinese is it?
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I've been secretly admiring a Silver late model Nissan Primera on my early morning Dog walking,
I think its a great design, almost Citroenesque in style but ...
Having read CBC @ HJ, I don't think I'd consider buying one.
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Humph has it spot on:
"Estates are for grown up, active real men."
The handle does, er............slightly give away my masculine preference. Being semi-retired I'm not quite so sure about the active bit though.
I quite like the look of them too - sort of easy on the eye and flowing comfortably from front to back. They do have a problem or two by not having a parcel shelf and I don't know where to put the nodding dog, the cushion or even the gold coloured tissue box.
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Another misguided soul who thinks vans with windows are chic, glad your not deluded enough to imagine that owners of such wear their underpants on the outside as some imagine.
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Most of the owners of estates I have known are the types who have a rusting engine block sitting on the overgrown front lawn next to the fridge they threw out five years ago. They are well known to the social services, at least one of the kids are in care and the council are fed up of getting letters from the neighbours complaining about them.
No offence Dulwich.
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Of course it is unfair to expect everyone to understand. Pearls, swine and casting come to mind so often in life.........Careful you don't drop your bread in the melted cheese. Oh and mind where you put that kryptonite, it disagrees with some us.......
:-)
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I can just imagine you driving around Glasgow c1980 in one of these Humphrey ~
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Austin_Allegro_estate_reg_1981_1275_cc.JPG
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Aaaaarrrggghhhh!!! Quick - the Mind Bleach!
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Tee Hee Dog ! I have to confess I was at that time in a Roman Bronze no less, Cortina GL..... er......saloon.
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At that time I had a Roman Bronze Escort 1600 Sport......saloon.
It was before I grew up and embraced the virtues of a real man's estate!
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>> Tee Hee Dog ! I have to confess I was at that time in a
>> Roman Bronze no less Cortina GL..... er......saloon.
>>
retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=readersrides&action=print&thread=62754
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In 1980 I was running around in a
Fiat superMirifiori 131 panoroma
thats Fiat speak for estate.
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I remember the Mirafiori Panorama very well. We got one new in 1981 for SWMBO as she was doing a school run and we had 3 children under 7. It broke down 3 times in its first and only year with us - so she stopped doing the school run and we traded it in for a Renault 5 which never missed a beat. Nearly 30 years on, SWMBO still won't look at another Fiat. Wouldn't even test-drive a 500 which I suggested as an alternative to a third Mini.
Although I'm firmly in the estate / hatchback camp, that Fiat was a good example of poor packaging. The luggage room in the estate, seats up, was much less than the 131 saloon's boot.
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Mine arrived, brand new with 57 miles on the clock, with visible rust blooming from the tailgate seams staining the white paintwork.
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Graham Hill used to advertise the Mirafiori on TV. I don't suppose his heart was really in it. He used to stumble over the name. A lot of people have words or phrases like that. Mine is 'swimming pool'. Never comes out right.
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I agree with the motion.
On the subject of Fiat Mirafiori Panoramas, me and some friends drove an automatic 'box one down to the south of France (Le Lavandou) for a camping holiday in the early 80s avoiding the autoroutes. Took quite a while!
The points closed up repeatedly on the way back and we had to be towed on and of the ferry in Calais. Having been towed off, the car was then comprehensively strip-searched (nothing illegal found!).
Dreadful car!
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A motion proposed - Saloons - Marc
