I did a load of work on the Galaxy this weekend. Had a local garage change the auto gearbox oil, and I can really feel the difference. Changes are sooooo much smoother. Also got him to do the brake fluid and fuel filter.
Back at home I did the oil and filter, air filter and pollen filter (the latter being the most hideous job imaginable). But there's a strange mathematical anomaly with the engine oil. I removed 4 litres using a vacuum pump through the dipstick opening. I know 4 litres came out because the pump has a calibrated recepticle. I then chucked in 4 litres of new oil, and checked the dipstick. Horrendously over filled. It was not over full before I removed the 4 litres. the capacity its quoted as 4.5 litres in the handbook.
I ran the engine for a few minutes to circulate the oil and checked again. Still overfilled, looked to be by about a litre. Darn it. So I sucked out a litre, and checked again. This time it's on the max mark.
So. How can you take out 4 litres and there only be room for 3 litres to go back in?
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>> So. How can you take out 4 litres and there only be room for 3
>> litres to go back in?
>>
Its a Ford.
You can't count.
Poor claibration on your extractor. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 27 Jun 11 at 12:57
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>> Its a Ford. :-)
It's a VW (1.9 TDi PD) with a Ford badge. Don't know if that makes it better or worse!
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its three litres of oil and 1 litre of soot that came out.
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Did you check the levels in each instance after leaving the engine to cool down and allowing oil to drip back into the sump?
Did the 4 litres you extracted include the filter? Where does that fit into your measurements?
Does the stated 4.5 litre capacity include the filter?
Did it previously, and does it now, have a proper filter with a non-return valve?
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>> Did you check the levels in each instance after leaving the engine to cool down
>> and allowing oil to drip back into the sump?
Yes. I checked it again this morning, after sitting cold all night, and the dipstick is on teh full mark still.
>> Did the 4 litres you extracted include the filter? Where does that fit into your
>> measurements?
This engine has a cardboard oil filter (whcih looks like a cylindrical air filter) which lives in a canister and is mounted on the top of the engine, next to the dipstick and the oil filler cap. You unscrew a cap, pull out the cardbaord filter, and put the new one in. No oil comes out with the filter. I changed the filter whilst the vacuum pump was sucking the oil out.
>> Does the stated 4.5 litre capacity include the filter?
No relevant, as per the above.
>> Did it previously, and does it now, have a proper filter with a non-return valve?
No relevant, as per the above.
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>> >> Does the stated 4.5 litre capacity include the filter?
>>
>> No relevant, as per the above.
>>
>> >> Did it previously, and does it now, have a proper filter with a non-return
>> valve?
>>
>> No relevant, as per the above.
>>
The filter holds about half a litre of oil, it only drains into the sump if (or when) the cap is unscrewed
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Right. So when the filter comes out, there's no oil in it? It certainly weighs no more than the new one.
I'm still mystified as to how 4 litres can come out of something and leave only room for 3.
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What you have not said is what the dipstick reading was, before you emptied it!
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>> What you have not said is what the dipstick reading was, before you emptied it!
>>
That's a point might have been half up the dipstick but 50% fuel.....only kidding AV.
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I did, pmh, in my original post.
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Bung a measured 4 ltrs of water in the sucker (not the engine!), and see what it reads then.
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Did you suck the oil out *before* undoing the top of the filter?
If so, I think I know what's happened.
As you break the seal on the filter cap, the oil surrounding the filter drains back into the sump.
------------
The procedure should be;
- With a hot engine
- Open the top of the oil filter (the old oil drains into the sump)
- Begin to suck ALL of the oil out
- renew the filter, seal, etc
- finish sucking the oil out
- refil with new oil until the oil registers on the dipstick
- run the engine to fill the filter housing
- top up the oil
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Thanks, NC. I think I was trying to do too much stuff in parallel.
Noting Cliff's point about having some old oil still in there, I'll do another interim change in 6 months.
I'm still a bit confused though. I have 4 litres of old oil. That means that there can only be 0.5 litres of old oil left in there as the dipstick was on the MAX mark to start with. then I have refilled with 3 litres of new, and it's back up to MAX. Another litre can no thave drained in to the sump at some time during the change, as that would mean there were 5 litres in there originally, in a sump with a capacity of 4.5 litres, whcih was not showing as over filled to start with. This does not make sense.
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>> The procedure should be;
>>
>> - With a hot engine
>> - Open the top of the oil filter (the old oil drains into the sump)
>> - Begin to suck ALL of the oil out
>> - renew the filter, seal, etc
>> - finish sucking the oil out
>> - refil with new oil until the oil registers on the dipstick
>> - run the engine to fill the filter housing
>> - top up the oil
>>
Just rereading and digesting this. One question, NC. At what point should one screw the oil filter chamber cap back on?
Once all the oil is out? After refilling?
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It's not too critical, but, after all the oil is out is as good a time as any.
Actually, if the oil filter hole is larger and/or easier to get at than the oil filler cap, you can refill most of the oil through the filter housing.
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>> Actually, if the oil filter hole is larger and/or easier to get at than the
>> oil filler cap, you can refill most of the oil through the filter housing.
>>
Why didn't I think of that? The oil filler cap on the Galaxy is very close under a dummy bulkhead (one which I later had to remove to get at the pollen filter, wish I'd done that first, another lesson learned there). So much so that it's impossible to get a funnel in it at more than 40 odd degrees. Which makes pouring oil in tricky and tiresome. The filter canister is much further forward and well away from any obstructions.
Thanks for the tip!
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>> The procedure should be;
>>
>> - With a hot engine
>> - Open the top of the oil filter (the old oil drains into the sump)
>> - Begin to suck ALL of the oil out
>> - renew the filter, seal, etc
>> - finish sucking the oil out
>> - refil with new oil until the oil registers on the dipstick
>> - run the engine to fill the filter housing
>> - top up the oil
Just wanted to pop back here to thank N_C once again for this advice. I did a full service on our Golf with the same 1.9TDi engine yesterday, and all the maths worked out. 4 Litres of oil came out through the sucker, 4 litres went back in, and we were back to the MAX level on the dipstick. Also, did the refill through the filter housing as suggested, it was much easier.
Cheer, N_C, a virtual pint is yours.
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Greetings comrade Alanović, good to 'see' you (to see you nice)
Now that you've 'broken the ice', why not pop back now & again, we'd be glad to hear from you (well, I would!)
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>>Cheer, N_C, a virtual pint is yours.
Thanks Alanovic, mine's a virtual pint of Tim Taylor's landord - cheers!
I'm glad the oil change went went well.
I know there are some who will never be convinced about sucking oil out.
I was sceptical at first, but, now I think that if using a vacuum pump to get the oil out means that the oil actually does get changed rather than becoming a faff of a job which gets put off until later, I think it might actually end up *saving* engines rather than ruining them.
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NC wrote:>>Did you suck the oil out *before* undoing the top of the filter? If so, I think I
>>know what's happened. As you break the seal on the filter cap, the oil surrounding the
>>filter drains back into the sump.
OK, so why, once he has refilled the engine and run it, isn't there any oil surrounding the filter again, afterwards?
It doesn't alter the fact that there's a full and working engine at the beginning. Four litres are removed. Three litres are put back and there's still a full and working engine at the end.
Spare part left over: 1 litre of fuel.
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There is, how do you think it got there in the first place. If you dont crack the filter while the sump is open your spare part of oil stays in the engine.
Thats what the thread is all about.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 3 Oct 11 at 16:18
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>> There is, how do you think it got there in the first place. If you
>> dont crack the filter while the sump is open your spare part of oil stays
>> in the engine.
>>
>> Thats what the thread is all about.
Nooo.... OP took out 4 litres and only had to put 3 back EVEN AFTER RESTARTING THE ENGINE!
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WHATS RESTARTING THE ENGINE GOT TO DO WITH IT.
The oil was transferred from the filter to the sump because he got the order wrong. It was in the filter but went to the sump. And was left there. Then it went back to the filter when he started the car.
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>> Then it went back to the filter when he started the car.
BUT EVEN THEN he was one litre over.
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GET A GRIP MAN
He let out three he put in three and one stayed in there
4-3+3=4
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He let out FOUR.
4-4+3=3.
Hence the conundrum.
In his own words:
1.>>I removed 4 litres using a vacuum pump through the dipstick opening. I know 4 litres came out
2.>> I then chucked in 4 litres of new oil
3.>>overfilled, looked to be by about a litre. Darn it. So I sucked out a litre.
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Yes, but after running the engine the oilways will be refilled again?
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Mon 27 Jun 11 at 13:40
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That's why sucking oil out of the dipstick is such a stupid idea. Get the engine hot and drain it via the sump plug and refill with clean oil and do the job properly :-)
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I don't fancy jacking up and crawling under a Ford Galaxy.
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>> I don't fancy jacking up and crawling under a Ford Galaxy.
I bet there's hardly any decent jacking points. That annoys the hell out of me with VAG stuff. The Golf's just ok, but the Octy is downright rotten for jacking up onto axle stands.
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This sort of problem is just as much a possibility when you drain using the sump plug, and isn't any indicator of problems with sucking oil out.
It's just a question of which order you do the work - it matters.
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NC, I take your point and will follow your procedure next time.
However, the fact remains that 4l have come out and 3l have gone in, and the dipstick measurement is that same. That is bonkers.
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Or put it this way:
I put three litres of new in, it is now on MAX. Capacity is 4.5l, so there must have been 1.5l in there to start with. But 4l came out, so there must have been 5.5 litres in to start with. But the dipstick was showing MAX, as it is doing now after refilling.
This is impossible. I doubt even NC can pick the ones out of that one!
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Pick the BONES out, I meant. Missed the edit.
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You were doing your other car at the same time, and you put the wrong dipstick back in.
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I can't solve Alanovic's conundrum, but the last time I did an interim oil change on the CC3 using a sucker, I managed to overfill it slightly.
Did much the same as Alanovic, put back in the same amount that came out.
I like the sucker because I couldn't be bothered to do an interim without one.
Jacking is not ideal anyway, because you want the car level to drain the sump.
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It may simply be that the mass of new oil is greater than the old oil it replaced, i.e. new oil has more energy than old oil, hence E=MC2.
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Doesn't a DPF cause a gradual increase in oil level over time?
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...Doesn't a DPF cause a gradual increase in oil level over time?...
Some do, although Fords generally don't.
Not sure which engine is fitted in the OP's car - did he say it was the VW 1.9?
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if its the old 1.9 PD it doesent have a DPF.
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It is, Zero. 2003 1.9TDi PD.
Checked level again this morning, still exactly on MAX.
My wife's Golf broke down last night (not having much luck, are we?). I went out to her to see to it and handle the RAC call out, and to give her the Galaxy to get home in, as she had the children on board. The problem turned out to be minor (the hose from the intercooler to the turbo had come loose, the bang and cloud of black smoke had scared the daylights out of the wife though - I suspect the hose got loosened by accident in the bodyshop last week as it's located just behind the bumper and offside headlight which were removed). I told the RAC chap about the oil level conundrum on the Galaxy, he had absolutely no idea what's going on either.
I think it'll remain a mystery, but at least I've learned a lesson in so far as following NC's procedure (thanks, NC) next time. I'll be interested to see if I get the same results again.
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a shot in the dark here, has the part of the dip stick that sits on the top of the tube slipped up the stick (or the stick slipped down in the top part) ?
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I doubt that K, it doesn't look possible on my dipstick. Thanks for the thought, though.
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>> Jacking is not ideal anyway, because you want the car level to drain the sump.
>>
Jack the side that tilts the engine towards the drain.
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Drain plug, of course, not the one in the gutter. There's too big a risk of losing the plug.
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Fumoto oil drain valve, perform oil changes in your Sunday best once fitted.
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>> Fumoto oil drain valve
Wassat, then?
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>> Wassat, then?
>>
Issa one of these, brilliant bit of kit and very well made, fit and forget.
www.quickoildrainvalve.com/
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Ah. Still involves jacking and a crawl under the car, no?
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Depends on your situation, my driveway is higher than my garden so i drive the car up to the very edge, then by sitting on the grass i can slide the drain can underneath and simply turn the lever....in time i'll get a couple of blocks built some 10 ft from the end of the drive, got 2 transporter skids (loading ramps) round the back they'll take a truck without bending, will be my own drive on car lift.
Even jacked up your only under for about 5 seconds to flick the lever over, a few seconds longer if you put a safety clip round the valve.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 28 Jun 11 at 14:42
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>>
>> a few seconds longer if you put a safety clip round the valve.
>>
If?
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I used one of these valves on a VW Jetta for five years, in the days of 5000 mile service intervals, a good bit of kit. The safety clip is only required for off road use.
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The safety clip is only required for off road use.
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I put a 5/8th Jubillee round the one on the pick up, it would be very difficult for a piece of debris to undo the tap, it's sprung, but sods law and me have a bit of a thing going.
Are 5000 miles intervals not the thing any more...they are here..;)
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 28 Jun 11 at 15:04
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>> Are 5000 miles intervals not the thing any more...they are here..;)
>>
And here, Would you believe a car manufacturer? :-)
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>> The safety clip is
>> only required for off road use.
>>
I was thinking of branches, general road debris, badgers, children.
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>> I was thinking of ... children.
I think you might be onto something there CP, shame slavery was abolished
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Sounds a handy device, gb. One wonders why manufacturers don't factory fit them.
I'll stick to being a sucker though. I have no ledges above which I can perch my vehicles.
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I used to manage to squeeze under our Fords without a jack and remove the sump plug, but I use a sucker now on the Audi. The problem is removing that big floppy plastic undertray and, more importantly, refitting it, which I've heard is best done as a 2-man job. The oil filter is also accessed from the top of the Audi engine, which leads me to doubt whether garages bother to use the sump plug these days either.
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Free use of my home garage near Reading which has a pit for under car access! Form an orderly queue!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Tue 4 Oct 11 at 08:36
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...Free use of my home garage near Reading which has a pit for under car access!...
Alanovic lives near you, so it's a pity he threw a strop and won't see your kind offer.
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Hardly, he posted in this thread just yesterday!
Pat
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...Hardly, he posted in this thread just yesterday!...
Indeed he did, but the holier-than-thou tone of the post gave me the impression he was only prepared to associate himself with us rabble to fulfil his obligations to thank NC .
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>> the holier-than-thou tone of the post
?
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>> >> the holier-than-thou tone of the post
where did that come from? the daily mail school of reporting?
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At least he was polite...
Pat
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...the holier-than-thou tone of the post...
As in: "Unlike like most of you lot, I am a decent an honourable man, so I am prepared to sully myself by coming back here just this once to thank Number Cruncher."
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>> As in:
That's a somewhat cynical interpretation, and completely incorrect IMO.
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Hardly surprising he doesn't want to come back.
Even now some people are criticising what he's saying.
Whilst I'm sure we can all tollerate a bit of banter and leg pulling, can we stop with the persecution of members please.
Vx.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 4 Oct 11 at 10:34
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>> >> As in:
>>
>> That's a somewhat cynical interpretation, and completely incorrect IMO.
worse than that, its a completely invalid interpretation, in fact a lie.
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Oil change - capacity discrepancy - Old Navy
