I'm getting older and want something quick but a bit softer on the old bones so I was looking at getting something like a Lexus GS or an Audi A8. The logic being as luxury quality cars they'd be more likely to last. I'm particular interested in an A8 as it is 4wd and is aluminium so thought they'd be better lasting as no steel to rot and bit of a stealth car as nearly as quick as a standard early skyline but in an old man in a hat body. And a V8.
The GS is also appealing as it is a) cheaper and b) on the SE versions the rear seats do fold. Was thinking coil suspension not air as air suspension is supposed to be very expensive to repair if it goes wonky.
Both are autos which is something new to me but I thought it might be a novelty at least.
I was looking at a celica but the oil usage on the VVTIs and the massive turning circle has put me off from them.
Mainly looking at Japanese and German luxo barges. Not keen on BMW as I've driven one and didn't like the ergonomics but did like the chassis and rwd.
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You're obviously also in the money if you can feed one of those these days!
Old rules apply: maximum spend £1k, and bin it when something goes wrong!
Or go down market a bit, and get something Japanese which comes with lots of toys.
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The audi will break and cost you an arm, leg and kidney to fix.
The Lexus wont break.
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Audi A8? You have £3k to spend a year every year on repairs? Or a lot more if the engine dies which early ones do. The electrics? Pah. And the suspension has well known and costly failings and the diffs leak oil..
Lexus? Check the autobox oil has ben changed regualrly. Tyres and exhausts are not cheap (nor are the A8's either)..
If you can stand 15mpg round town in winter...you've got money to burn.
You are cheaper taking £200 in used notes each month and tearing them up than buying either car...
A nice Mercedes 320CDI S class will do the same.. but the fuel consumption will be a little better..
£50k + when new cars are very expensive to run when new.. They don't get cheaper as they grow older...And garages think you're a mug and easy pickings (hint: you are).
I did the sums on a LS400.. and a S class and an A8..
Whilst you can diy on a GS or LS cos the electronics are Japanese and properly designed, the German ones are not. So specialist help needed when they go wrong...And people sell big luxo barges cos they can't afford them .. so the first thing they save on is: maintenance.
Just ring up your local Audi dealer and ask how much a 100k service is: in reality when all the things that are wrong are sorted you'll be lucky to see chaneg from £800.. or a LOT more..
I ran an old Jag once. Comapred to an A8 it was dirt cheap to run as I could diy.. An A8 may not rust bodily but...
Last edited by: madf on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 13:13
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I don't do a great mileage anyway so I'd rather have other features :) Roads around here are disgusting and I'm fed up of being battered to bits.
If audis break a lot then they're off the list.
I don't worry about garages as I have a good one that I always use that know my strange taste in cars :) Wouldn't touch a franchised dealer with a 10 foot pole.
Lexus it might be then.
Not sure about Merc as the era I'd be looking at (late 90s) is when they were building carp.
Cars are my only vice.
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>>
>> I don't worry about garages as I have a good one that I always use
>> that know my strange taste in cars :)
>>
>> Cars are my only vice.
>>
A man after my own heart.
How about this for something different?
tinyurl.com/68g8uec
Rare RHD and LPG too. Snap it up quick before Alanovic does... ;)
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Pah. That's a compact.
You should have seen the lady trying to park a Chevrolet Suburban in my local Waitrose recently. Two "mother & child" spots taken up and it was still at about 45 degrees.
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That's either incompetence, laziness, arrogance, or perhaps all three.
I only take up one mother & child spot in my Camaro
Don't want to give american car owners a bad name...
:)
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The Chevy Suburban has dreadful lock, she did well to get it in the car park. There is a reason that US parking spaces are angled at 45 degrees rather than our 90.
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>> How about this for something different?
>> tinyurl.com/68g8uec
>> Rare RHD and LPG too. Snap it up quick before Alanovic does... ;)
>>
Hmm. Think I'd flatten a few buildings before I got used to the size of it!
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> Only one on country with this spec and LPG system.
Doesn't that just fill your heart with confidence?
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I think it just means with RHD, Zero
Canadian built if it's a right hooker. 99.9% of yanks imported are left hookers
To get two yanks with exactly the same spec takes a bit of doing. You get your basic car then tick the option boxes as you wish. So you can have air con, power seats and manual windows if you wish. Saw a fifties yank that had air con, power steering and windows.... and vacuum wipers!
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I meant from a spares and repairs point of view. You wouldn't fancy your chances of getting a LPG problem diagnosed and rectified quickly would you. Not likely to get a new steering rack down your local motor factors either.
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Very true.
Personally I would prefer a LHD yank, a right hooker just wouldn't seem right.
I'd run a mile if the installation wasn't UK installed with a certificate. Would probably struggle getting insurance cover also.
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>> The audi will break and cost you an arm, leg and kidney to fix.
>>
>> The Lexus wont break.
>>
Agree with Zero (and madf)
You didn't mention your budget, teabelly, but how about this?tinyurl.com/689oked
LPG too, which helps, and I believe is exempt from congestion charges
Last edited by: captain chaos on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 13:19
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Budget probably under £2k.
I'm definitely off Audis now :)
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Renault Vel Satis? Peugeot 607? W124 Merc?
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>> Renault Vel Satis?
>>
Big, complicated & French. too risky
>> Peugeot 607?
>>
Probably less complicated, still French, but a very nice ride. maybe worth a punt
>> W124 Merc?
>>
They're all getting very very old, even Mercs. don't go on forever without some money spent on them. Expensive in bangernomics terms too.
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You don't state your maximum budget, but I'm gonna say VW Phaeton here (Well I would, wouldn't I?)
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Hey, hang on. What am I thinking?
Alfa 166, of course.
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>> You don't state your maximum budget, but I'm gonna say VW Phaeton here (Well I
>> would, wouldn't I?)
Here you go Comrade.
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201115384278083
Now in your budget.
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That's a right touch.
But I'd (probably wrongly) go diesel.
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XJ, previous model, alluminium, great dynamics, perhaps a V6 diesel.
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Personally I'd go for a late model 6pot X300 Jag.
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Don't fret about the GS air suspension cos it doesn't have it. The later LS models did, but not in your budget.
I had a 98 plate 3 litre GS at one point, and it returned about 28-30 about town, and 32-34 out of it, so not at all impossible. Service and maintenance was highish but not horrendous and not much tends to go wrong.
However, the LS is in a different class. Again, I had a 2003 LS430 and you could see where the extra 25k in purchase price at the time went over the GS - a much nicer vehicle. That gave about 24mpg around town and 28 out. The 4 litre gave more grunt than you might imagine. But yes, at 100k it was due timing belt change and they wanted £800, and as a service was due as well it was nearer £1100, albeit that was main dealer prices (I didn't proceed).
Check the road tax position of course.
Not cheap, but really rather pleasant, and finances permitting I'd have a Lexus again tomorrow. Neither of mine, of course, were anything like new when I bought them - the GS was about 8k and the LS about 15k to me, and I don't regret them for a second.
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I've had an LS430 for almost a year, premium pack with fridge, massage air conditioned seats and rear entertainment. And LPG of course.
It's a fantastic place to be, sometimes if my wife's in the supermarket, I'll sit in the back, recline the seats and have a massage. Amazing Mark Levinson sound system.
You almost can't hear anything when you're driving along until you kick down to overtake a mimser, then all you can hear is the V8 roar and it's remarkably quick for a big, heavy bus.
I averaged 37 mpg between Rotterdam and the Polish border, cruising gently with the aircon off.
Check out the Lexus Owner's Club forum. They only have about 1 post a week in the engine/gearbox technical section for the LS. I've seen 3 or 4 posts from guys with air suspension problems in the year since I joined, that would be my main worry, although its often a sensor problem.
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Agree with all you say, BBD, and Mrs C, she of no motoring interest, still misses having her own radio and aircon in the back.
Have you tried the alas now defunct LS460? Even nicer, even more toys, and prices now sub 20k already. As they were about 85 billion three or four years ago that's quite appealing.
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You drive Mrs C around with her in the back?
How very Lady P and Parker of you.
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:)
I did a few times with that car. These days she just sits mute and staring in the front, dabbing the floor with the wrong foot in panic every time a cyclist appears on the horizon.
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"Have you tried the alas now defunct LS460? Even nicer, even more toys, and prices now sub 20k already."
I haven't been in one but I do like them and they're quite a looker too which you can't say about the LS430. Plus they park themselves don't they? Every Pole should have one.
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They do self park, but the manual for that feature alone is the size of oh, let's say, Bleak House, and I gave up by page fifteen and didn't dare try it. It was a brand new one on a day's demo and I kept thinking about returning this 85 grand car with a dent in it.
But all the other goodies are fun, although of course the 430 has some great features. I liked the way the air vents track about automatically, for example. Little tiny motors just to do that, wonderfully ridiculous.
But I'm a sucker for the Lexus dealer experience. I liked the yearly Lexus Days for example, where you get invited to a country house somewhere and fed canapes and stuff, and get to drive all and every model in the range if you want. They never chased for a sale, at the time or afterwards. They even pre-programmed the satnavs up so you didn't get lost on the ten mile route, give you some goodies and say see you next year. A good free day out.
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That's not too bad then. GS is looking more and more tempting. Will spend time looking for a good one.
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>>Roads around here are disgusting and I'm fed up of being battered to bits.
In which case what you need is a Citroen - possibly a 2CV - not a motorway cruiser like an A8. 4WD doesn't help on bad roads, it helps on good roads. Or else you want a Chelsea tractor.
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The GS has the 3 litre engine. Do not buy a LPG conversion: all sorts of issues regarding valves I believe.
The GS430 is a great Q car with the V8 but probably outside your price range.. If I could afford one I'd buy one...
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Ta.
Found an LS for under £2k that looks ok. The ones at under £1500 don't look so hot.
That GS430 looks good but being post March 2001 I dread to think what the VED is like.
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From memory, the LS knocked out 275 g of carbon stuff per weird French measurement, so a post 2001 one is what, £400 to tax? GS430 wouldn't be far short as it's the same engine, pretty much.
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Pre banded rate it would be £200 ish so a significant saving.
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"From memory, the LS knocked out 275 g of carbon stuff per weird French measurement, so a post 2001 one is what, £400 to tax?"
I taxed mine a couple of months ago for the normal £140 for 12 months or whatever it is now.
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Can't quite find a W220 S-Class, but these look nice:
S reg S320, 72,000 miles, FSH, satnav, double glazing, £1995:
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C217809
1995 S320, 152,000 miles, owned 5 years, £1500:
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C170202
L reg CL600 V8, 160,000 miles, FSH, 4 owners, £2295:
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C209627
Are you a pub landlord by any chance? I'd expect to see any of the cars mentioned so far as the sole occupant of a pub carpark early in the morning...
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Roger
When the review STARTS with :-
"Interior: numerous faults can arise here.."
you know it's a POC.
LS400 electrics ? 10% except the dash LEDs fade on early ones.. a simple cure...
I knew someone with a Mercedes 600: his annual maintenance bill (admittedly at a Merc gin palace) was over £5k...
Last edited by: madf on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 16:53
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>> bit.ly/iJ28e0
Oh good lord no. Even Renault realised that was a complete and absolute shocker, and killed it off early. You need your bumps feeling before you buy on of those. Doesn't even have good looks to soften the blow.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 16:59
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>> >> bit.ly/iJ28e0
>>
This is what happens when comittees design cars...
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That classic cars place has some nice looking motors. Merc limo does look appealing but not sure it would be reliable like a lexus would probably be.
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Dave's pub landlord comment reminds me to suggest a Silver Shadow, or the equivalent Bentley.
I once knew an Irish pub landlord, in Chiswick, west London, who had one.
Said he only used it once a year to go to Cheltenham races.
I expect that was only partly true, but if you can live with the fuel consumption, they are relatively simple cars in most respects.
Citroen suspension, but only on the rear, if memory serves.
Buy a white one and see if you can do a few weddings to offset the cost.
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Last of the line Toyota Camry, they are supposed to be pretty good.
My sister has an aussie spec 2008 one and they did Sydney to Adelaide in one shot. They both said they were glad they went for it over all the others they looked at.
I would be tempted by a top-spec Hyundai Sonata or an XG30, lot of car for the cash.
Going up in class, Honda Legend.
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>> Going up in class, Honda Legend.
Rare, fetch stiff money unless its 15 years old.
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>> Honda Legend
I searched for those before posting the links to some Mercs above. They can be as cutting-edge as the S Class in terms of new technology - I think the Legend was one of the first cars to be fitted with adaptive cruise control, for example. Found one T reg example for 2 grand, everything else was way north of there. That's a lot of money compared to Merc, Jag or Lexus.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Thu 9 Jun 11 at 17:51
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Old Jags can be iffy, think id rather have a Honda myself although if I wasnt worried about economy a V6 Camry is hard to beat for value/comfort/reliability.
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>> a V6 Camry is hard to beat for value/comfort/reliability.
Does it fall into the 'luxo barge' category though? I would have thought it was at least one size too small for that; not ostentatious enough.
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>> Old Jags can be iffy, think id rather have a Honda myself although if I
>> wasnt worried about economy a V6 Camry is hard to beat for value/comfort/reliability.
>>
The reason I suggest Jags is that there's a fair few independent specialist garages around, parts availability/price is generally good (compared with S class or Lexus) and I would think they're significantly less complex than an equivalent age S class or LS. Early X308 V8s seem to be the ones to avoid.
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Depends how much you want to spend fixing a car. I have alot of customers with Jags, some as much as 15 years old. Now they can easily afford the repair bills, but the frequency with which the cars 'need something doing' is quite stark.
The newer XJ, from around 02 onwards seems to be more solid esp in electrical areas, but the late 90's ones I know seem to be a work in progress. Depends if you want that ownership experience.
Ive driven an A8 4.2 and while it is on the surface all very fancy, its not especially fast, its very complex and the ride is bafflingly unsettled for a supposed luxury car.
A luxo-barge - meaning a luxurious car which floats along presumably, isnt governed by dimensions, but the driving experience.
Closest ive come to that is a Rolls-Royce which indeed steered much like I imagine a barge would, but totally isolate you from the outside world in a serene, detached way that sooths the mind and body. Ive driven hundreds of luxury cars and nothing has matched it, certainly nothing at the bargin end of things.
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>>
>> The newer XJ, from around 02 onwards seems to be more solid esp in electrical
>> areas, but the late 90's ones I know seem to be a work in progress.
>> Depends if you want that ownership experience.
>>
Late 90s will be the early V8s, which are troublesome beasts; a mate of mine has run a succession of mid 90s 6pot XJs for years now without much hassle, other than the diff going on one, buys 'em with 100K on the clock and puts 20K a year on them until they break. Probably less reliable than a well maintained A8 or similar but cheaper to fix.
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>Early X308 V8s seem to be the ones to avoid.
Early X308s did have problems but most will have been sorted by now. Nikasil, timing chain tensioners and water pump impellors were the main culprits.
Jaguar replaced engines with Nikasil problems FoC and the tensioners/water pump will have been done by any savvy owner. It should be easy to get one around the £2K mark that's had all the work done and it will be as reliable as a Lexus.
Parts are reasonably cheap and there are plenty of indies around. You won't get a better combination of ride and handling anywhere. The ride quality in my current X350 (with CATS suspension) is noticeably harsher than my old X308 Executive on the standard touring suspension and 16" wheels.
The June issue of PlayJag has a buyers/owners guide for X308s.
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I liked the distinctiveness of the Vel Satis when it first came out; we even played a little game of spotting them on holiday in Burgundy in 2002. But that was before my S60 arrived, and I discovered that a cosseting interior can go with a passably attractive outside and effective and reliable mechanicals; I doubt I'd bother with one now, even if it was very cheap - and certainly not in fire engine red like the one in the link!
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In that price range, I can't see past a BMW 7.
Biased? Perhaps but I bought mine on a whim, had gone to the garage to see a range rover. Quite lucky really, it was more or less by accident I've ended up with the best model.
Reliable m52tu engine (rather than the later problematic m54 or less gutsy m52 predecessor). The m62 v8 740 is supposed to be a good one but has only a few mph higher top speed and although it's much more rapid it's heavier so perhaps not as good a drive and besides you waft about in these and only having 197 bhp has never been a hardship so far. The 30mpg+ has been nice.
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>> In that price range, I can't see past a BMW 7.
>>
>> Biased? Perhaps but I bought mine on a whim, had gone to the garage to
>> see a range rover. Quite lucky really, it was more or less by accident I've
>> ended up with the best model.
>>
>> Reliable m52tu engine (rather than the later problematic m54 or less gutsy m52 predecessor). The
>> m62 v8 740 is supposed to be a good one but has only a few
>> mph higher top speed and although it's much more rapid it's heavier so perhaps not
>> as good a drive and besides you waft about in these and only having 197
>> bhp has never been a hardship so far. The 30mpg+ has been nice.
>>
>>
>>
Which variants? 735i, 728i? Couple on autotrader around 1999/2000 era.
Not really sure about a BMW as I had a 1 series as a loan car and it was dreadful.
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>> Not really sure about a BMW as I had a 1 series as a loan
>> car and it was dreadful.
Dont let that put you off. The 1 is not a real BMW.
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>> >> Not really sure about a BMW as I had a 1 series as a
>> loan
>> >> car and it was dreadful.
>>
>> Dont let that put you off. The 1 is not a real BMW.
>>
It was mainly the interior and ergonomics I didn't like. Reverse was in the passenger seat and so hard to obtain it explains why BMW drivers don't often reverse down narrow roads when you meet them. They can't find reverse gear!
RWD chassis was good though.
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>>
>> It was mainly the interior and ergonomics I didn't like. Reverse was in the passenger
>> seat and so hard to obtain it explains why BMW drivers don't often reverse down
>> narrow roads when you meet them. They can't find reverse gear!
>>
>> RWD chassis was good though.
>>
On both our 1 Series (120i and 123d) reverse is left and up so more towards the glovebox than the passenger seat and certainly does not intrude into the passenger space.
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>> It was mainly the interior and ergonomics I didn't like.
It's a much bigger place to be in the 7, the passenger seat's a short bus ride away from the driver. The seats are the best i've sat in, think great leather armchair. They're very easy to get comfortable in.
Cockpit's all well laid out, not quite Saab level wraparound but definitely driver focussed.
Silence inside is worth so much, i'm convinced it's one of the main reasons you arrive fresh after a journey.
Everything's solid, i can't imagine being able to break a control or button on the dash without sustained and deliberate attempts.
>> RWD chassis was good though.
Yeah, you can't beat that everything-goes-through-your-hips feeling, steering, accelerating, really engaging and positive feeling.
Last edited by: Skoda on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 12:06
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...The 1 is not a real BMW...
On 1-series forums they call the MINI the 'BMW half-series'.
Everyone looks down on someone - unless you are working class.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch
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>> Everyone looks down on someone - unless you are working class.
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch
I know my place.
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...I know my place...
You have a Mondeo, so you look down on us Focus drivers.
But we all look down on the poor sap in his Fiesta.
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>> >> Not really sure about a BMW as I had a 1 series as a
>> loan
>> >> car and it was dreadful.
>>
>> Dont let that put you off. The 1 is not a real BMW.
>>
The 1 is great, BMW DNA, just a little smaller, not sure about Teabelly's experience though it takes all tastes and I guess it is true to say that someone who wants to buy a "luxo barge" is not after what a 1 Series is all about.
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>> The 1 is great, BMW DNA, just a little smaller, not sure about Teabelly's experience
>> though it takes all tastes and I guess it is true to say that someone
>> who wants to buy a "luxo barge" is not after what a 1 Series is
>> all about.
That's not true. I didn't like the 1 series as the seats were carp, couldn't adjust them to get comfortable at all and you had to get out of the car to do some adjustments which was pathetic as all other height adjustable seats I've encountered let you use a lever to adjust them up and down with you are sitting on them. It also had no headroom whatsoever and the cheapo nylon roof lining created static cling in my hair!
It was exactly the right size, decent boot etc but let down by poor quality interior materials and basic design problems that ruined an otherwise decent car.
I'd only wondered about a luxo barge recently as it's not a class of car I've owned but I've seen this alfa spider...
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>> That's not true. I didn't like the 1 series as the seats were carp, couldn't
>> adjust them to get comfortable at all and you had to get out of the
>> car to do some adjustments which was pathetic as all other height adjustable seats I've
>> encountered let you use a lever to adjust them up and down with you are
>> sitting on them. It also had no headroom whatsoever and the cheapo nylon roof lining
>> created static cling in my hair!
We have a 2005 and 2010 1 Series, the seats in both can be adjusted fully when being sat in, both cars have a very useful range of adjustments including electric lumbar.
I am 6' and the headroom is fine even if the seats are not in their lowest positions, for someone of more than 6'6" with an afro it might be an issue though ;-). As for the headlining, I have not surveyed the quality of headlining across different cars though it is fine in the 1s, the difference being that is it white in the 120i and black in the 123d.
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Not the one I had. The height adjustment lever manual entry specifically said you had to get out of the car to reset it to full height. Only electric adjustment on the seat was for the lumbar back width thing. Rest was all manual. It was a hire car so I'd imagine poverty spec but as a 120d Msport is £25k I'd have expected full electric everything.
I'm 5'7" and there was inadequate headroom no matter what I did with the seat as it didn't adjust for height properly. It basically tipped forward rather than raising up and down perpendicular to the car. Useless design.
6' 2" friend of mine couldn't even get in one. He bought a 3 series instead.
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Suggest you didn't actually manage to lower the seat to the lowest position then. The seat stays perpendicular to the floor when raised/lowered though it moves forward a little when raised and back when lowered so all you need to do to raise it is lift the lever and lean forward a little, basically a similar system to our old Clio. As I say the lumbar adjust is elec, nothing else on the seats is though both cars are well equipped despite no elec seats, the 123d having elec fold mirrors, cruise full leather, Bluetooth etc.
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Possibly. Never been such a struggle on any other car though. The vauxhall thing I had for 2 days was easy peasy and gave a comfortable driving position straight away so it's a bmw issue as far as I am concerned.
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I'm 5'7" and there was inadequate headroom no matter what I did...
Curious, because I've ridden in a 1 (2008 vintage, I think) with no headroom problems - and if there is one, I'm usually the first to find it. In fact I was pleasantly surprised by the whole experience.
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Skoda was trying to sell his 7-series a couple of months ago.
Sounds like he has looked after it.
You could do a lot worse.
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I would always consider having another Legend.
My pal has a cosseted Jaguar XJ 3.2 with an lpg conversion for sale at what seems reasonable money. It's actually a customer car with a lot of history from a local specialist. I was tempted but there are problems getting the UK lpg conversion accepted by the authorities here and putting the gas tank in the spare wheel well leaves the boot a bit small for our needs. I quite like the colour.
www.thornfalconclassics.com/SalesDetail.aspx?id=257
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>>I quite like the colour.
www.thornfalconclassics.com/SalesDetail.aspx?id=257<<
Yuk! - my XJ6 in old english white with red leather looked a 1000 times better.
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tinyurl.com/65lpu9u
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 10 Jun 11 at 10:42
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Like the look of the LS, here's a Jag for similar money:-
tinyurl.com/6ay8wgl
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Friend of mine has a Jag like that. It is ALWAYS in the Jag hospital.
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>> Which variants? 735i, 728i?
728i from late '99 through 2001 - a (non foolproof) check is the colour of the indicator lenses, clear lenses should mostly mean M52TU.
I wouldn't go older than '98 anyway, i know the Nickasil cylinder liners issue is supposed to be long gone but why even bother with the risk.
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Which cheap to buy (ish) luxo barge? - Mapmaker
