It's not possible to top-up the brake fluid on the CC3 without removing the scuttle panel.
The linked pics (I hope) illustrate the problem.
The panel is double skinned, so the clearance above the fluid reservoir cap is only a centimetre or so.
With a lot of fiddling and probable scraped fingers, it might be possible to remove the cap, but there's still no easy way to put fluid in.
Is this poor design?
Or does it not matter?
I've not had to top-up a reservoir for many years.
On the other hand, it's almost impossible to check the level, much less do a moisture check.
Removing the scuttle panel does not appear to be very easy - the wipers must have to come off, and it's not clear where the screws/ fixings are.
I think there should be easier access to the reservoir.
tinyurl.com/5szd7n8
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Very poor design, I like to check the brake fluid level every time I open the bonnet and plenty of modern cars do need a top up if you keep them long enough.
Next they will be making the dipstick impossible to get access to.
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some cars have no dipstick
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>> some cars have no dipstick
must... not... bite... ;)
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>> I like to check the brake fluid level every time I open the bonnet
Rattle, you don't unscrew the lid and peer down the filler neck every time do you? Brake fluid is hygroscopic, and that's the best way to introduce water into it.
I merely flick the side of the reservoir with my finger, hard enough to make the fluid slop once in the reservoir so I know that I'm looking at the fluid on the inside and not just the dirt on the outside.
Jiggle the coolant expansion tank to see the level in the side, withdraw the dipstick 98% of the way to check the level before re-inserting it, quick look around the engine for any leaks or stains, shut bonnet.
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Not removed it once, the clutch and brake fluid containers are completely transparent with the max and min marks very clear. One of the great little design thoughts I love under the bonnet of the Panda, everything is so easy get to.
The coolant is a little harder to check because the reservoir is bolted onto the radiator but it is still easy.
No power steering fluid as its electric.
Only takes a couple of minutes to check everything and its the difference between a void warranty claim, a breakdown and worse.
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>> I like to check the brake fluid level every time I open the bonnet and plenty of modern cars do need a top up if you keep them long enough.
Where does the brake fluid go then for it to be topped up? It's a sealed system. Other than leaks it cannot go anywhere, nor evaporate.
There should be enough fluid in the reservoir to allow for brake pad / shoe wear and not drop down to minimum levels. When the pads / shoes are replaced the fluid in reservoir is replenished when the braking pistons are pushed back in to allow for new pads / shoes.
What is annoying is that if a garage has topped it up during servicing, you then have to suck some brake fluid out of the reservoir if you do a DIY pad / shoe change, or slacken off the bleed nipple on the caliper you're working on to get rid of the excess fluid.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 17 May 11 at 13:57
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>> What is annoying is that if a garage has topped it up during servicing, ...........
When my car is serviced I specify which items shouldn't be touched. Usually the main ones are don't adjust the tyre pressures (including the spare) and don't add any washer fluid.
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>> It's a
>> sealed system.
Isn't there a breather hole in the reservoir cap?
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>> Isn't there a breather hole in the reservoir cap?
Probably. I didn't mean literally sealed in that sense. I meant in the sense that the brake fluid can't go anywhere (except for leaks) other than from the reservoir to the brake cylinders, and back again.
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>> >>
>> the brake fluid can't go anywhere (except for leaks) other than from the reservoir to
>> the brake cylinders, and back again.
>>
As the pads wear the caliper pistons move outwards so a greater volume of fluid is required.
When the pads are replaced, the pistons are pushed back into their starting positions, and the excess fluid is expelled. Correctly, this is done via the nipple at each caliper, but more usually just by forcing it back up into the master cylinder so that it dribbles out of the filler.
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>> When the pads are replaced, the pistons are pushed back into their starting positions, and
>> the excess fluid is expelled. Correctly, this is done via the nipple at each caliper,
>> but more usually just by forcing it back up into the master cylinder so that
>> it dribbles out of the filler.
A dangerous practice on many cars, as the flow of fluid under pressure in the "wrong" direction can flip the seals in the master cylinder, necessitating a very time consuming (and expensive if not DIY) master cylinder rebuild.
The Haynes manual for my Scenic expressly mentioned this as a risk on this car, and advised clamping the flexi-hoses and opening the bleed nipple before pushing the caliper pistons back.
ISTRC Astras of a certain generation were very susceptible to this, too.
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On the Mondeo (and I assume the CC3 too) the scuttle panel has to be removed to change the pollen filter.
I reckon I've changed more pollen filters than I've topped up brake fluids.
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I don't think my Panda has one! I think only the Pandas with aircon have one. Well it is car for peasants!
I changed the Fiestas last year when it was my car, I got sick of the windows steaming up, removed the Pollen filter and discovered it had not been changed for 12 years! It was most disgusting thing I have ever seen.
Took about 10 seconds to change on the Fiesta, in fact its so easy to change it is easier than filling up a car with petrol.
On the Corsa you had to remove the scuttle panel so never bothered to replace it. It was on my to do list but the head gasket blew before I got round to it.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 17 May 11 at 13:35
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>> you had to remove the scuttle panel so never bothered
It's four screws.
Mind you, I don't like taking my computer to bits. Horses for courses.
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From what I can remember I had to remove the wiper arms to remove it, I think I actually started it but then a couple of screws had rusted in so would have needed drilling it.
On old bangers simple jobs like that are never easy.
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Nice car the Panda my daughter has one with aircon.
Easy to check under the bonnet she just had it serviced runs fine.
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Iffy. Is that a result of RHD?
Bleeding the brakes could be interesting.
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Am I in a timewarp the photo was taken on the 18th....quick iffy send us the lottery numbers...I'll break the habit of lifetime and buy a ticket..!
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The time's interesting too.
Who here's OCD enough to change the time on the clock on their camera twice a year?
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Squeezy bottle and washer pipe might prove handy, still a daft spot for it though.
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All car designs are a compromise. Things which don't need to be touched frequently can afford to be made less accessible. On your car you can easily see the brake fluid level, and that's the main consideration. I'd sooner have to cope with your brake fliud reservoir than have a spare wheel in a cradle underneath the boot.
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Think of the Ferrari drivers who need the engine taken out to service it.
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It is a stupid design.
But people are buying it.
So it becomes an acceptable design.
After some time it will be latest design* and people will laugh if you don't have.
* = like automated manual, electronic parking brake, no dipstick etc.
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>> Things which don't need to be touched frequently can afford to be made less accessible
Too true. My dad's (dipstickless) Merc has the power steering fluid reservoir buried in the bowels of the engine, underneath the air intake ducting.
Things like that, and Iffy's brake fluid cap, probably won't need to be accessed more than a couple of times during his ownership of the car, so it's acceptable for them to be tucked out of the way.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 17 May 11 at 17:20
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Without wishing to appear churlish, I can only assume that before you bought the car you either didn't look under the bonnet very closely or you accepted the brake fluid reservoir situation.
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Without wishing to sound even more churlish, as you said "every car is a compromise" did you check out all the "compromises" when you last bought a car?
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My car's ugly, doesn't stop it being a damned good motor though. If it was the other way around that would be unacceptable to me. :-)
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Thanks for the replies.
I was concentrating on posting the photos correctly - my first time - so the time and date stamp were the last things on my mind.
Presumably, the camera is stamping each pic incorrectly, although where Picasa records a time or date, it will be correct.
As regards buying the car, I don't think I looked under the bonnet at all, and even if I had done, I doubt I'd have noticed the brake reservoir.
I'm slightly surprised at Ford, they are usually quite good at this sort of thing.
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There's probably method in the madness - like vxfan says above it's a pain when mechanics top up brake fluid. I'd rather have an indication there's a slow leak than have it topped up every year.
Nice labour charge too come brake fluid change time... Although the more I learn about mechanics I doubt the scuttle would be coming off. Flexible hose or some clever time saver tool, they bleed the brakes by suction from the nipple these days I think.
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You want poor design? How's about the latest addition to our company fleet, a Renault Loader 32-tonne 8-wheeler; a lorry so advanced that it has a computer display of the oil level, yet requires the cab to be tilted in order to replenish it, or access the "normal" dipstick.
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>> ............ yet requires the cab to be tilted in order to replenish it, or
>> access the "normal" dipstick.
How often is that necessary?
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Most of the above comments indicate to me you are all living in the past when servicing meant changing plugs and oil and filters and greasing and topping up leaks and...
The world has moved on. Time to do so as well..
(Retires for explosions)
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...you are all living in the past...
Fair comment.
I'm on my way to the present, which is why I'm not too concerned.
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>> (Retires for explosions)
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Bang!
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"The world has moved on. Time to do so as well."
Absolutely. The sooner they can weld the bonnet shut before it leaves the factory, the better.
I only open it to put in washer fluid.
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>> The sooner they can weld the bonnet shut before it leaves the factory, the better.
>>
>> I only open it to put in washer fluid.
>>
As I have posted before...
It is time to move the washer bottle to the boot area. Maybe in the rear wheel arch area or inside the rear bumper if it is totally hollow like my Mondeo II is.
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>> Absolutely. The sooner they can weld the bonnet shut before it leaves the factory, the
>> better.
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You are thinking of the Audi A2.
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He said welded shut ;-) Not lift off bonnet as on the A2.
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>> How often is that necessary?
>>
When the vehicle's fairly new, you should get away with doing it every six weeks, which happens to be the recommended garage inspection interval. Given that these vehicles will look to clock up rather more miles than the average family saloon (my current 56 plate Volvo has 320,000 km recorded) then the potential for problems obviously increases as the engine wears and starts to burn or leak oil. Tilting the cab involves a fair bit of messing about; almost every other vehicle I've come across in 30 years of driving lorries has allowed the driver to top up the engine oil without such hassles.
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yet requires the cab to be tilted in order to replenish it, or
>> access the "normal" dipstick.
Iveco Stralis the same, and require frequent topping up.
Mercedes truck was showing overfill warning, but doesn't say by how much, i take it to VMU, they tilt the cab, no dipstick in place it should be, so mech has to drain a gallon and then check the dashboard reading...proper mechanics think about as much of the idea as we do, many oaths heard as hot oil runs up the mech's arms as he's trying to rethread the sump bung.
It's called progress, or something like that.
Would i buy a vehicle without a dipstick, not a chance.
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Same here, a dipstick is essential I would not trust a display readout because sensors do go faulty.
I personally wish modern cars had oil pressure gauges too, if they did I am sure there is at least two sheds I would not have bought.
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>> I personally wish modern cars had oil pressure gauges too,
Couldn't agree more, but you're in danger of being locked up with us in the Luddite room, not a bad place, truth, honour, politician hatred and common sense being the main rules..:-)
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Right on, Bra! (high five)
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>> Same here, a dipstick is essential I would not trust a display readout because sensors
>> do go faulty.
>>
>> I personally wish modern cars had oil pressure gauges too
I can see where you're coming from, but they're one more distraction. Many drivers are blissfully unaware of a flashing repeater (often accompanied by an audible clicking) that tells them they've forgotten to cancel their indicators, what hope have they of noticing a drop in oil pressure? ;-)
Oil pressure gauges on Harleys, BTW (available like most other things as an optional extra) cause more distress than they solve problems, and are as much use on the bike as an ashtray would be; the Harley engine is a roller-bearing design which relies on flow rather than pressure, and many a novice to the marque has gone into a blue funk when reading the gauge on a hot bike and seeing virtually nil pressure at tickover!
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On gauges I always insist on a temperature gauge, but believe it or not some city cars don't have one. My Panda has one and that is all I have to indicate something is wrong.
It has never once gone above middle, and it if ever does I will know something might be up.
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That, I agree, is a serious omission on any car given the potential for problems; my old man's Fiesta lacked one too.
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>> It has never once gone above middle, and it if ever does I will know
>> something might be up.
>>
But that's because the gauge is designed to stick on the middle for quite a wide range of temperatures - it does not move with every change. In many cases I wouldn't be at all surprised if the only time it moves from the middle is when it goes straight up to the 'red' section, working in exactly the same way as a warning light, but at higher cost...
Peter
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I.e you're saying its just a motor which moves the needle to what what ever range of temperatures the ECU feeds it? Makes sense I guess :(.
The needle does however gradually does move to the middle, after about 2-3 miles which suggests it is quite accurate.
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>> But that's because the gauge is designed to stick on the middle for quite a
>> wide range of temperatures - it does not move with every change.
Much like the oil pressure gauge on the mk2 Mazda MX-5. The mk1 had a proper pressure gauge. The mk2 had a similar looking gauge in the same place, but gave a constant reading under all running conditions.
I believe most modern temperature gauges work in a similar way.
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>> On gauges I always insist on a temperature gauge, but believe it or not some city cars don't have one.
>>
My daughters 11year old old Yaris has no temperature guage but instead either a red or blue pretty light up themometer image is displayed but none when the coolant is warmed up.
So in normal motoring nowt is shown.
Is a 1.3 Yaris a city car ???
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>> Same here, a dipstick is essential I would not trust a display readout because sensors
>> do go faulty.
A dipstick is not an essential IMO. We've owned a number of BMWs, Renaults and Mercedes that have not have a dipstick, or that had electronic oil level displays as well as dipsticks, and had no problems at all with any of them. AFAIK Renaults have had oil level displays for well over 10 years (possibly even since the mid '90s?) and the internet is not full of people having issues with them :-)
I'm also not convinced that the new car buying population would want to pay extra for an oil pressure guage to protect used car buyers 10 years down the line from making a mistake ;-)
And thinking about it, you seem to be saying that you don't trust the sensor for an oil level monitoring system, but would like a sensor to monitor oil pressure...I think there really are more important things to worry about :-)
Peter
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The point Rattle's making (and with which I concur) is that a dipstick is foolproof. Basically you shove it in the hole, pull it out and read the mark, and you can tell there's oil there because it drips on your nice clean chinos; which is why the boffins invented the computer display. Nothing to do with it being more accurate, it isnt; just that it saves you getting your hands and clothes dirty.
Over the last few years, "improvements" in technology have seen things which definitely work and are essential (dipsticks, spare wheels) replaced by things which might work and aren't, such as computerised oil level dispalys and tyre inflator kits.
The new car buying population, of which it seems you're a paid-up member, would do well to consider that circumstances might yet force them to buy a ten-year-old "smart" car and suffer the consequences.
Increasingly, manufacturers are becoming a bit too smart for their own good. K.I.S.S.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 17 May 11 at 22:11
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I actually think a lot of it is cost cutting too. Do without the dipstick and that will probably make each car at least £10 cheaper to make, when you're selling millions of cars that adds up.
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I think perhaps the rose tinted rear view mirrors are tinted a little too much.
Dipsticks are only foolproof if they are checked.
An oil pressure gauges is only any use if the driver watches it
It's not unusual to read on this very site people in dismay about how infrequently the general motoring public opens their car's bonnet to do basic checks. For these maintenance phobic people, dipsticks are utterly useless.
I don't know the figures, I doubt they exist, but, I wouldn't be surprised to find the number of engines saved by electronic checking is actually massive.
As a technical point, even conventional engines don't rely upon oil pressure, the bearings only need flow. Typically, oil pumps are sized just to provide a bare minimum of pressure at hot idle. Pressure is thus an indirect method of checking that the bearings are being fed with an adequate flow of oil. In technical jargon, engine bearings are hydrodynamic rather than being hydrostatic - they rely upon the relative motion of the sliding pair to dynamically provide the oil film to keep the surfaces apart.
I also post on a couple of MB websites, and usually it's about a fortnight between people posting on the engine section confused about what their oil pressure gauge is telling them. A light is much simpler.
Although there are honourable exceptions who post on this site, I can also see the logic of keeping HGV drivers well away from their engine's lubrication system.
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>> I can also see the logic of keeping HGV drivers well away from their engine's lubrication system
Agreed. I work with twenty of them, most of whom will ignore any and every warning light in front of them.
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Will be like the old bus drivers then, I use to always look at the readings on bus dash boards and would often me amazed of what some of the air pressure gauges for the brakes where showing. Would be quite common to hear nothing but "bleep bleep bleep" during the entire journey and a look at the dash would show a defective brake.
Thankfully things have improved massively since those days and all the buses are not only much newer but also very well maintained.
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>> The new car buying population, of which it seems you're a paid-up member, would do
>> well to consider that circumstances might yet force them to buy a ten-year-old "smart" car
>> and suffer the consequences.
Not at all; as I mention in another thread until recently I ran a 20+ year old BMW E30 (albeit not as an every day driver). It had an electronic oil level warning light that worked just fine :-)
And, just a thought, but if I was a regular used car buyer I think I'd prefer a car that had indicated to it's owner/driver that it needed an oil top up, prompting most to actually do something about it, than one in which the driver could merrily go for months without topping up a low oil level because they were too lazy (or ill informed) to find the dipstick... ;-)
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>> The point Rattle's making (and with which I concur) is that a dipstick is foolproof.
>> Basically you shove it in the hole, pull it out and read the mark, and
>> you can tell there's oil there because it drips on your nice clean chinos;
>>
Generally agree with what you are saying about the dipstick however, it does depend on the manufacturer.
With my car I can pull the metal dipstick out and get a pretty accurate picture of the condition of the oil and level.
My wifes car has a plastic dipstick which is the proverbial chocolate teapot. No idea what the level is as it has been pulled down the stick by the tube, forget a second reading as reinserting the stick then pushes the oil dragged up the tube up the stem of the dipstick. Wiping between readings makes no difference.
Thankfully that car has an electronic check which tells me if it's OK or not.
Last edited by: gmac on Tue 17 May 11 at 22:27
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>> Over the last few years, "improvements" in technology have seen things which definitely work and
>> are essential (dipsticks, spare wheels) replaced by things which might work and aren't, such as
>> computerised oil level dispalys
I know of no failures of electronic oil level displays. The oil level display told me the level of the oil EVERY time I started the engine, the dipstick didnt.
There is no reason on earth why an electronic dipstick display should not be installed. Tell me, what dipstick is used on huge marine diesels? Or in aircraft jet engines?
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I have no problem with electronic displays at all, in fact I am all for them, but I also like an old fashion dipstick just as a back up.
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Despite my loathing of French car electrics, my experience of Peugeot oil level dash displays shows them to be remarkably accurate.
Many MX5s have an oil pressure gauge in lieu of a low pressure warning light. My daughter hasn't a clue what it means, but if a light came on she might give me a bell.
There's a consensus of opinion that reckons an oil temperature gauge is more useful (as long as you know what it's telling you).
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>> There's a consensus of opinion that reckons an oil temperature gauge is more useful
I noticed the Passat I had as a demo had an oil temperature gauge via the MFD. Probably on the multi-function display because the stop-start function does not come into effect until the oil has warmed up?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 17 May 11 at 23:44
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>> There is no reason on earth why an electronic dipstick display should not be installed.
>> Tell me, what dipstick is used on huge marine diesels? Or in aircraft jet engines?
Quite a few have them, although they are upside down and called dropsticks.
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>>The point Rattle's making (and with which I concur) is that a dipstick is foolproof.<<
Like the Picasso which has a habit of losing the bottom inch? (Only a problem for the technically unaware).
Like the early Austin Maxi or was it 1800 which had one that was too long! (and some models of the Nisaan Quasqai(sp?), and Saab 9-5, which apparently have ones that are too short.
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I've got an idea, Ford used to do it, and the French, well Citroen at least still do.
A dipstick combined with an electronic readout.
Those that are too idle to lift the bonnet don't have to and those who want to see the level and more importantly the colour/condition of the oil can do so.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 18 May 11 at 07:12
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>> I've got an idea, Ford used to do it, and the French, well Citroen at
>> least still do.
>>
>> A dipstick combined with an electronic readout.
My 306 XSi used to have a dual function gauge in the bottom of the rev counter. On ignition on, a min/max scale would illuminate, and the needle would swing to show the dipstick level. After a couple of seconds running, the scale would switch off, the needle would zero for a second or two, and then start performing its main function as an oil temperature readout. The oil level indication wasn't very accurate, but it was at least consistent, meaning with familiarity, I could predict the actual dipstick level to within a few millimetres using the gauge.
The Grand Scenic used to show the engine oil level in the computer display at every start up, along with "Oil Level OK".
Last edited by: DP on Wed 18 May 11 at 10:40
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...Tell me, what dipstick is used on huge marine diesels?...
A very long one?
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How do you check the oil level on a dry sump engine?
EDIT: Genuine Q, i don't know the answer. The oil canisters i've seen have no dipstick and no easy access in situ
Last edited by: Skoda on Wed 18 May 11 at 09:42
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Look at any old British motorbike. You'll probably see a window in the oil tank.
Don't know about dry-sumped cars.
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One advantage of the electronic oil level warning is that if you suddenly lose a lot of oil whilst driving then it'll let you know. OK not an everyday occurrence but I have known someone who managed to damage the sump on a speed bump and lost oil fairly quickly.
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>> One advantage of the electronic oil level warning is that if you suddenly lose a lot of oil whilst driving
>> then it'll let you know
On a diesel Octavia it'll shut the engine down. Not me, but a colleague who encountered a 6" high concrete platform along a badly eroded farm track in the dark.
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My father had a car in the 60s (possibly an A35 or Hillman Minx) that was a serious oil burner. Each time he topped it up to the top of the dipstick acceptable level, it burnt it down to the bottom of the acceptable level almost immediately. Eventually sick of this, he didn't top it up. It then proceeded not to use a further drop of oil for months. The dipstick turned out to be incorrectly calibrated.
The Citroen C5 1.6D has a habit of losing the bottom of its dipsitck, requiring sump removal to retrieve it. According to the car-by-car breakdown, anyway. (I quite fancy a C5, they're as cheap as chips at under 1k for an 8 year old machine. Surely it'd be likely to run for six months without something expensive going wrong...)
Who needs dipsticks.
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Do current VAG diesels still use a black plastic dipstick?
My mk4 Golf diesel has one, and it's almost impossible to read given that diesel oil goes jet black almost instantly after a change. A black shiny substance on a black shiny surface....very annoying.
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The dipstick on the CC3 is yellow which shows clean and dirty oil quite well.
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>> A black shiny substance on a
>> black shiny surface....very annoying.
>>
Designed by Hotblack Desiato?
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Oh dear, MM. Being tempted by French flesh, eh?
It seemed you were being a bit prescriptive, ruling out Renaults and Citroens in your "Which new car" thread. I think a post-2005 Laguna would be a good choice for you, they're very good cars and a snip due to the reputation of the earlier models. I'd think that a much better bet than an old C5.
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The dry sump tank on my old racing car had a transparent tube up the outside to show the level.
With age it became opaque so I just unscrewed the top and peered in.
The level is much less critical than with a wet sump.
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>> How do you check the oil level on a dry sump engine?
>>
With a dipstick, dear boy! ;-)
Well at least you do on Harleys, which are all dry sump.
Going back to the original point of the thread i.e. poor design, my chosen steeds are not immune from this.
An annoying problem on the 1989-2003 "Evo" Sportsters was the oil filler cap, which was so situated that it dug into the inside of ones right thigh; quite uncomfortable on a long run. H-D designed its replacement with a neat and clever pop-up design which sat flush with the tank till one pushed in to make the cap pop up , and you then unscrewed it. Unfortunately, the thread was such that the cap was almost impossible to turn when the engine was hot (for some reason that's when you check the oil) and there were no knurl marks on it to aid grip. Result, serious complaints both from dealers and owners; newer models have a re-designed cap.
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Perhaps there's a special tool available for removing the brake fluid reservoir cap. Things are often easier when you have the right tool for the job. For example, I bought a Draper tool for removing wiper arms. www.drapertools.com/b2c/b2cbrowse.pgm
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 21 May 11 at 16:19
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Maybe it's there for a reason !
High enough for Joe Public to be able to read a level but inaccessable enough to force you to take it to the professionals to fix it if there is a problem. Don't want just anyone messing about with the brakes.
This is Ford...one of the biggest car makers on the planet. If anyone can go sticking whatever they feel appropriate in the brake system then pilling into a brick wall it might have a negative effect on residuals like in another thread on here.
Cars...always a compromise.
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A poor design? - RattleandSmoke
