Our new car doesn't have satnav as standard, so we'll be looking to buy something standalone.
What's the best way to go - Smartphone or dedicated satnav? I'm particuarly interested in traffic avoidance capability.
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What smartphone do you have or were thinking of. A good compromise might be an iPhone running TomTom (or similar). Or an Android running saying Navigon.
You will need a good in car charger for a smartphone when running sat nav - it might run down quicker than it charges with the wrong sort of charger.
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Satnav every time.
Smartphones are primarily useless for serious satnaving.
Screens too small, directions not loud enough, screens too dim in sunshine, and the touch sensitive panels and small icons not suited to a shakey fingerpoke at speed.
I can not pour enough scorn on these devices in sat nav mode.
I have used both, extensively, testing them side by side for the very reason of deciding if I can dump the sat nav. I still have the TomTom standalone as it does the job a gazzilion times better.
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Hi,
I agree with Zero. I use Navigon on a Motorola Defy. Its okay for an emergency, but I also ahve a Tomtom satnav.
Navigon is very basic and I use it when aboard to save on data costs. In the UK I find Google free service is just as good.
Best regards
Barry
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I should add my only real experience of sat nav on a smartphone is Google Navigation on an Android phone and TomTom on a Symbian phone. I still prefer TomTom.
I also have a TomTom standalone product and will be using it next week in Tuscany. I did use TT on an old iPaq for a bit and then tried it on the Nokia N70. The latter worked but screen too small and the phone installation mounted too low for sat nav. Good for when you needed sat nav and didn't plan on having the TT unit with you mind.
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Used Freenav on iPhone - which as the name implies is a free app for iPhone. As Zero says too small a screen for constant use as a Sat Nav in the car. Works fine as a on foot sat nav - small enough to carry cos it's a phone....worked wonders during my census job.
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Freenav is good for the last mile. Its more up to date than any car sat nav, so has those recent new road additions.
For longer routes tho its has bizzare routing, and the old problem (that tomtom got rid of years ago) of trying to hang on to the old route with miles and miles of "make a U turn" instructions.
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Not bothered using it for routing, but just as a mapping tool....i.e. find the postcode I wanted and work out a route by brain and eyeball...!
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PU, Google maps on the iPhone probably just as useful then?
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I suppose, I just like the Freenav interface. It works for me.
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...I can not pour enough scorn...
Not a problem you usually have.
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>> Not a problem you usually have.
Indeed and a good enough phrase from he for me to avoid like the plague.
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Nokia free ovi-maps and free sat-nav have worked fine for me.
Even when there is no mobile phone signal, for example in the wilds of Gtrand canyon land or somewhere in Death Valley.
Last edited by: John H on Sun 1 May 11 at 21:51
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>> Nokia free ovi-maps and free sat-nav have worked fine for me.
>>
>> Even when there is no mobile phone signal, for example in the wilds of Gtrand
>> canyon land or somewhere in Death Valley.
But my TomTom in the hire car with US maps did it better.... Indeed I used the tomtom to plan driving times before I went.
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My clunky old TT has worked well in the US for two trips. A third is impending so it may well be dusted off for SF etc !
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>> Even when there is no mobile phone signal
But the Nokia maps are downloaded for offline use. So why would you need a phone signal? My TomTom 720 doesn't need anything apart from a GPS signal to work either ;-)
I know you're saying that some applications on smartphones like Google Navigation need a data connection for mapping. But it does pre-cache maps.
I've looked at the latest Nokia's with Ovi Maps - give my TomTom any day. The interface is poor.
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Come October my TomTom will not be used as much because the new car has satnav as standard. But it won't let you edit POI or do speed camera warnings... There's progress for you... not.
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>> Come October my TomTom will not be used as much because the new car has
>> satnav as standard. But it won't let you edit POI or do speed camera warnings...
>> There's progress for you... not.
I think Renault have the right idea, semi integrating TomToms make perfect sense.
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I do have a genuinely useful GPS map app on my Iphone, which is perfect for walking trecking and hiking. A car sat nav is just made for one thing, it does not have to compromise in any way from its primary role. A phone does.
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MotionX-GPS
So good I even paid to upgrade it to the full version,
I like the tracks feature that tells you where you have been, how many miles you have done, and can guide you back to your start point. Ideal for walks in the country,.
The dog and I have now started doing the genteel sport of "geo-chaching" using it.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 1 May 11 at 22:15
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I will have a look at that. Thanks
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PU check out Memory Map and Viewranger too.
I used Memory Map on an iPAQ running Windows CE for years and very good it was too. Also get a companion PC app. But I wanted to stop using the iPAQ and so looked at Viewranger. Not as good IMO but did the job on a Nokia smartphone (and now my Android).
Both are on the iPhone. Not free apps.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 1 May 11 at 22:22
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Motionx costs the whole sum of £0.59p
memory Map is 20 quid, and Viewranger (using open maps) is £0.59p and view ranger premium is 20 quid.
I just bought the viewranger (open maps) to test against Motionx
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If you can get OS 1:25,000 scale maps for £0.59p then that is impressive. I assume you actually need to purchase these additional maps in reality?
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Not OS maps, no but open map, i did say that.
You can get free open maps topo, cycle and road. Tope has all you need unless you are in tricky country. You simply download the tiles for the area you plan to visit. (or if you have a good 3g connection - on the fly)
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 1 May 11 at 23:18
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>> I just bought the viewranger (open maps) to test against Motionx
And the verdict is, MotionX,
It renders the maps faster, and has a million more useful features.
Viewranger is the cleaner interface tho (not hard when it has few features)
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If you want to only view your position on a map (e.g. ordnance survey) then on Android there is an app called RMaps. You can use a Java application on a PC/Mac (Mobile Atlas Creator) to download map tiles of varying details for use with RMaps. Not user friendly mind.
Maps that are downloadable for use at varying magnification include:
- Ordnance Survey Explorer (so that's not legal then)
- Google Maps
- Google Earth
- Yahoo Maps
- Microsoft Maps
- etc.
There is a long list of map tiles at varying magnification levels (supporting zooming on the phone) and output formats.
If only there was a better map that could use these to follow a route/track.
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Forgot Nokia Ovi Maps on there too. I wonder if the app Zero is using can use an output from Mobile Atlas Creator?
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>>>I like the tracks feature that tells you where you have been, how many miles you have done, and can guide you back to your start point.
My handheld Garmin marine unit does all that... fascinating to get back in and download your trips onto the charts also loaded to the laptop. Gives a huge amount of speed/direction/time data at very frequent waypoints.
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>> But the Nokia maps are downloaded for offline use. So why would you need a
>> phone signal? My TomTom 720 doesn't need anything apart from a GPS signal to work
>> either ;-)
because in some places you may not get a satellite lock on, and the data connection somehow helps avoid that problem.
edit: forgot to add the obligatory Manc "but" and "though".
Last edited by: John H on Sun 1 May 11 at 22:23
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so you seriously think you are going to loose GPS signal but not phone in the states?
I drove some 1500 miles in the states last year, and often lost phone signal but never GPS lock.
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>> the data connection somehow helps avoid that problem.
So in the middle of open space you cannot get a GPS lock but do have a data connection. I'm confused. You mentioned the navigation working without a phone signal.
>> My handheld Garmin marine unit does all that.
My BT GPS receiver can work as a normal Bluetooth GPS device but also is a GPS logger. Holds 64,000 way points. You can then look at them on your computer when you get home. I use it to geotag photos (not often enough).
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>> in some places you may not get a satellite lock on, and the data
>> connection somehow helps avoid that problem.
>>
Smartphones will be able to use A-GPS, which basically means that the phone can get location info. via the data connection from the cellular network to establish its position without GPS satellite lock.
Personally I'd want a proper satnav for in-car not a smartphone app, as already discussed display too small for starters.
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>> A-GPS
Assisted GPS uses the data connection to aid getting a fix by downloading the almanac data. It means you get a faster fix time. When in tricky environments (urban canyons) then it can help. But the latest GPS chips can calculate a GPS position using reflected signals these days.
Smartphones can triangulate positions using cell-tower and wifi info. The latter is more accurate and is used by SkyHook, Apple and Android. It sort of cheats because it has a database of wifi hotspots logged against location. But neither of these techniques relies on GPS.
One can improve on GPS accuracy using augmented signals as used in WAAS and EGNOS.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 1 May 11 at 22:36
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There was a man from Tom Tom hanging around the sat nav display in PC World/Currys the other day.
I asked him if the gadget would pinpoint me on a 2D map and allow me to drive around the map - the nearest experience to using a paper map.
The short answer was 'no'.
I asked if the gadget would give a simple compass reading, that is answer that most important navigation question: Which way am I going?
The short answer was 'no'.
Ordnance Survey call their most popular series of maps Explorer for the very good reason it's what a lot of people use them for.
Seems to me sat navs are next to useless for this purpose.
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The man from TomTom didnt know much then.
The tomtom will pin point you on a 2d map. Wont be an ordance survey sheet tho because it isnt one.
The tomtom will give you a simple compass heading.
You cant do all that with an OS sheet while driving at 70 mph now can you. The map argument is a fatuous one, its not a map is a guidance device, not meant to displace maps.
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...The tomtom will pin point you on a 2d map. Wont be an ordance survey sheet tho because it isnt one. The tomtom will give you a simple compass heading...
All the man managed to do was pinpoint me on a map which didn't have place names on, or was so zoomed out as to not be of much use.
He told me the gadget couldn't keep me centralised on the map if I moved.
He said there used to be a compass feature, but it has gone from newer Tomtoms.
I think the screen on a satnav is too small for what I was asking for.
The offshore lifeboat I had a ride in had a 7" or so screen on which you could see the boat moving, the coastline and other features.
Obviously, that is a serious bit of kit, probably costing thousands, but it's what gave me the idea.
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You need a hiking GPS, something like the Garmin Oregon to do what you are asking.
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...You need a hiking GPS...
Funny you should say that, I had a feeling that might be the case.
I will have a look at the Garmin Oregon.
Thanks.
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Lets not get our sat navs mixed up here.
A car sat nav should be just that, optimised for finding a location, and guiding you there by road. And that's all.
A hiking sat nav only really needs to show you where you are, where you have been, your terrain in great detail, and not to run out of power.
Ditto ships, aircraft, etc etc. All have fairly specific needs that should be catered for by specific devices
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...Lets not get our sat navs mixed up here...
I think I already have. :)
Car Garmins have different car icons to download, which suggests you can make yourself appear on the map.
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My tomtom has an icon of my previous car, the altea, that I photographed and turned into a sat nav pointer.
I must change that, Its only been gone 16 months.
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>>>I asked him if the gadget would pinpoint me on a 2D map and allow me to drive around the map - the nearest experience to using a paper map.
My integral unit in the car allows you to do that ... as does my marine handheld (for which I also have O/S based maps when on land).
>>>I asked if the gadget would give a simple compass reading, that is answer that most important navigation question: Which way am I going?
My handheld does this with both a virtual compass display and a bearing in figures... the car has just a virtual compass.
One interesting point about satellite lock is Mrs F's Garmin and my handheld have a delay in loading satellites from a cold start... sometimes 30sec or more... the car gets a fix the moment you start up.
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>
>> One interesting point about satellite lock is Mrs F's Garmin and my handheld have a
>> delay in loading satellites from a cold start... sometimes 30sec or more... the car gets
>> a fix the moment you start up.
The car hasnt moved since it was last powered down, and is powered up in exactly the same spot it last saw satellites. Doesent really need to lock satellites, they haven't gone anywhere.
Take a Tomtom, power it off in the UK, then power it up in the states. 4 minutes to find satellite lock.
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>> Doesent really need to lock satellites, they haven't gone anywhere.
The satellites do move though. Knowing the almanac data and where you were will find a location quicker though.
On my iPaq running TomTom 2 there was a quick way to get a satellite fix. Find your location on a map on tell TT that's where you were. It could then in seconds get a lock even if it had been off for weeks. Otherwise it could take 5 minutes.
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>> >> Doesent really need to lock satellites, they haven't gone anywhere.
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>> The satellites do move though. Knowing the almanac data and where you were will find
>> a location quicker though.
The almanac data doesn't change by location either once its loaded.
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>>>The car hasnt moved since it was last powered down, and is powered up in exactly the same spot it last saw satellites. Doesent really need to lock satellites, they haven't gone anywhere.
Well it must have some extra trickery then because it will immediately show your rolling location on the map as you drive off. Neither Garmin will do this until they have a satisfactory fix.
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If its a proper car one, it will be attached to the speedo pulse line, and have an accelerometer.
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I asked if the gadget would give a simple compass reading, that is answer that most important navigation question: Which way am I going?
My BMW badged Garmin has a display option that gives you a compass display that Nelson would have recognized. It will also show a little motorbike icon on a 2D map if you want. The TT will do the latter. Are you sure that it was a man from TT and not some flat-earth luddite ?
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... Are you sure that it was a man from TT and not some flat-earth luddite ?...
I'm starting to wonder.
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For what Iffy seems to need we've already discussed really good GPS based alternatives that use digital maps. Z mentioned one and I mentioned MemoryMap and Viewranger.
A big difference between car satnav and 'walking/flying/sailing' nav is the former can assume you must be on a road and snaps you to a road. It also uses vector based maps so it understands the connections between points on a map - you can only travel on a road.
For walking you could be anywhere so the maps are actually just simple flat bitmaps. Same for flying and sailing. What you need is to see a map and view your position on the map. Useful additions are seeing a compass, altitude etc. And of course to follow a plotted route/track but again that is different to car sat nav.
There are even units that combine both. I think you can get offroad satnav maps in some Land Rovers/Range Rovers. And MemoryMap do a combined car/walking sat nav so you use the former to get to the walk and the latter for the walk itself. Very different uses of the same GPS signals.
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Because we like to wander from topic here....
Like a few on here I have a TomTom 720 (some have the later 730). I had altered my mount to use velcro to attach to the map pocket on the top of the dash of the Mazda6. Next week I go to Italy and need sat nav. A few weeks back I bought a new Easy Port dock for the TT. It was a bit pricey but came with a new/spare charger (mine had broken anyway).
This replacement dock is superior to the original in so many ways! Fixes to the screen very well and is rock solid. Real test on Saturday then.
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Satnav or Smartphone? - rtj70
