Haven't looked at the Telegraph Motoring pages since our former host's marbles had a visit from Lord Elgin, but I'm off work this week (supposed to be drawing up a new household budget today) and went over there in search of distraction from what I ought to be doing.
It didn't take me long to find this, in reply to a question about priority at motorway sliproads:
The priority is common sense. The driver of a car joining from a slip road usually cannot see traffic on the carriageway as clearly as drivers on the carriageway can see him. Any crashes that occur are often the result of stupidity or bloody mindedness by drivers on the carriageway who refuse to give way to the vehicles joining.
Never mind the poor style - qualifying 'any crashes' with 'often' makes the sentence meaningless - this strikes me as both dangerous and wrong. Still shaking my head, I checked the online Highway Code, where Rule 259 states unambiguously:
You should
- give priority to traffic already on the motorway
- check the traffic on the motorway and match your speed to fit safely into the traffic flow in the left-hand lane...
HJ seems to want to legitimize the behaviour of those who wish to barge into the left lane without so much as a look, even when those of us already in it have taken the trouble to leave space ahead and behind for them to move into - after all, a busy motorway junction is the perfect place to practise zip-merging. But perhaps it's all we should expect from someone who drives in a hat.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 29 Apr 11 at 11:58
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I remember discussing this very point on the old forum some time ago, and yaking the same view as you.
I get royally cheesed off with people unnecessarily giving way to motorway joiners, thereby causing traffic outside of them to adjsut their speed and often change lanes.
Those joining should adjust speed and zip merge, as you say. Stands to reason.
You will, however, hear in ths thread before too long how it's actually the right thing to do. I contend it's only the right thing to do if you can do so safely and have good reason to believe the berk joining hasn't seen you or is going to barge you out of the way through some ill-founded feeling of rectitude or arrogance.
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 17:36
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There are a lot of berks on the roads Alanovic. They may well be the majority.
If someone joining a motorway drives straight at the side of a vehicle already on it, without attempting to speed up or slow down to get into a gap, then he or she is the berk.
However HJ clearly knows that it is more difficult and fraught joining a motorway than simply driving along one. He is complaining about those n/s lane motorway drivers who haven't got the nous to lift off or accelerate slightly to create an inviting gap if it doesn't exist already (it quite often doesn't actually).
Such drivers in his opinion, and mine, are a damn sight more berkish than drivers who come down the slip road at the right speed expecting, reasonably, to be let in.
Sod the highway code. And sod rigid idiots who stare straight ahead and feel insulted when conditions require them to back off, or speed up, to let someone in.
Forcing people to stop at the bottom of the slip road is dangerous and moronic. As most fules kno, but not all it seems.
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>>
>> Forcing people to stop at the bottom of the slip road is dangerous and moronic.
>> As most fules kno, but not all it seems.
>>
Nobody is forcing them to stop, they do that themselves if they fail to merge, besides they've always got the hard shoulder to fall back on so there's no need to stop.
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It's not difficult, as long as those joining the motorway realise that they have a brake pedal AND an accelerator pedal. Sometimes you need to speed up, sometimes you need to slow down, to seemlessly merge. Too many people seem to either just plod on at the same speed irrespective of whether it will bring them into grinding contact with someone else, or slow down. Few in the UK take the correctly-judged accelerate option in my experience.
It's different in Germany - hit the slip road and they are into "must go as fast as I can as soon as possible" mode, whereas a little easing of the loud pedal would make a seamless entry perfectly possible without inconveniencing anyone else.
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>> Too many people seem to either just plod on at the same speed irrespective of whether it
>> will bring them into grinding contact with someone else, or slow down. Few in the UK take
>> the correctly-judged accelerate option in my experience.
Spot on. Usually I can move over if safe to allow the idiots to merge. Sometimes you can't and the idiot causes problems. It is their responsibility to get their speed and the distance right to actually merge though. You can leave them gaps etc but they have to do their bit.
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I think he's mostly correct.
If you follow someone down a slip road who mimses, apart from overtaking them on the slip road, you have no real choice but to match what they do. If someone on the m/way can easily change lanes to let you out, THEY SHOULD DO SO. Trouble is many won't.
I for one would not wish to be left stuck in a slip road, it's incredibly dangerous.
I'd agree that normally, when on your own you ought to be able to match your speed and merge from a slip road..but lorries, vehicles towing trailers, coaches etc don't always have the acceleration.
So common sense has to come in to it...which is what HJ says.
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Its a combo of both drivers surely. Easing off a touch to allow a gap where the isnt one, and matching speed to slide in requires two sets of brains.
Long shot I know.
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I'm with Westpig and Zed on this one.
Some M'way sliproads are incredibly short, perhaps 100m or less merging area, and if you are behind a 40mph mimser or HGV attempting to merge with 60+mph left-laners it is gratifying for someone to open a bit more space or move over to facilitate merging.
Many cars cannot rapidly scoot from 40 to 70mph within 100m and thus a little help from the right hand side is welcome.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 17:45
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As a regular motorway user I tend to agree with HJ and others on this. Smooth traffic flow requires cooperation and common sense not dogmatism. If I see traffic looking to merge on to the motorway I'll move over into lane 2 provided it doesn't baulk anyone already there but even if it would, provided they are far enough back they have the option to move temporarily into lane 3 if they wish to pass me. Just courtesy in my view and I'm grateful when it is extended to me.
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>> If I see traffic looking to merge on to the motorway I'll move over into lane 2 provided
>> it doesn't baulk anyone already there but even if it would, provided they are far enough
>> back they have the option to move temporarily into lane 3 if they wish to pass me
So why is it when I do exactly that, the lane 2 driver continues to aim for my back bumper, braking hard 20 yards behind me before tailgating me until I move back into lane 1, then accelerating past me while making all manner of hand gestures? It's like lane 3 doesn't exist sometimes...
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>> So why is it when I do exactly that, the lane 2 driver continues to
>> aim for my back bumper, braking hard 20 yards behind me before tailgating me until
>> I move back into lane 1, then accelerating past me while making all manner of
>> hand gestures? It's like lane 3 doesn't exist sometimes...
Don't be disingenuous Dave. You know that there are some drivers who are only allowed to drive in lane 2 - they are never seen in 1 or 3.
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>>Don't be disingenuous Dave. You know that there are some drivers who are only allowed to drive in lane 2 - they are never seen in 1 or 3.
I understand that lane 1 in Italy is known as 'the lane of shame'.
Could explain a lot and why many shame-faced drivers use it to undertake. ;>)
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>> I'm with Westpig and Zed on this one.
>>
>> Some M'way sliproads are incredibly short
I hold the same view. The sliproad from my village that joins the A12 is very short, if you give priority the the traffic already on the dual carriageway, you could end up stopping and put yourself in a far worse situation. It's best to match the speed of the traffic as you come down the sliproad, that way someone is more likely to let you in because they can see that you're not going to hold them up and make them brake.
Saying that, if an HGV was alongside you as you were trying to merge, you would have to give priority, because they simply can't change direction or slow down quickly. Most of the time though, the HGV drivers are pretty good at allowing someone to merge, as long as they don't mimse too much.
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Great minds think alike Westpig. Nor are we alone I notice.
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The best system (I think) are those motorways where the slip road becomes the inside lane of the motorway. That way nobody has to change lane at the junction. Later on, after maybe a mile or two, the lanes can merge from 4 down to 3.
IIRC there are some junctions on the M25 that work like this, and I'm sure that they exist on other motorways as well.
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@Westpig;
ditto +3 (edit added: it seems +5 by the time I posted)
@Alanovic;
no harm in being courteous and always assuming that the slip road driver is a berk (better safe than sorry) - making sure that you are not hindering other traffic already on the M-way around you.
Last edited by: John H on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 17:59
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One berk I came across on the M50 once. I eased off for them to easily join in front of me if they sped up a little. Plenty of space/time. I would have moved over had the Golf R32 in the distance doing way over the speed limit not been chasing down in the outside lane and gaining very fast.
What did the other drive do.... slow down a bit. Still plenty of room for them to carry on and join in front of me. I ease let my speed drop a little more just in case.... they decide to slow down.
By this time it would be unsafe for me to accelerate past them and they were then looking like they would just drive into me so in the end I had to stop! Nobody behind as the road was quiet.
All happened fairly quickly but they just would not merge. Maybe they assumed I'd accelerate past the slip road but that would have involved going way over the speed limit and there was the danger they'd accelerate.
So who was the biggest berk? Them or me?
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>> Them or me?
Sounds as if it was them all right rtj.
Of course moving into lane 2 is often an option when things aren't too busy, and is the preferred choice for press-on drivers who understand the use of mirrors.
However this reminds me of another numerous category of motorway berks: the ones who tailgate along in the middle lane and choose to pull out suddenly to waddle very slowly past the other middle lane traffic, often starting by dropping back a bit in horror at their own effrontery in daring to change lanes, just as someone is coming up rapidly in the outside lane who will then have to brake heavily to avoid giving them the whiplash and trashed jalopy they so richly deserve.
It's not the driving that threatens me with apoplexy. It's he goddam drivers.
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So who was the biggest berk? Them or me?
Probably you, RTJ, for not taking your right of way when you had it and the other driver was trying to cede it. }:---)
But that's the problem, and the reason we need firm rules rather than woolly guidelines. Consider 'Drive on the left - or the right if the driver coming the other way prefers it'. Absurd - but is it different in kind from this argument?
There should always be a clear tiebreaker in these situations. If the merging driver is in front of me, but too close for a safe merge, I'll back off and aim to widen the gap; if I'm level or in front, I'll maintain or increase speed to claim the space. And yes, I'll move out if I reasonably can - but too much of that is probably the original cause of the problem, in that it's led some to think it's the norm for the traffic on the motorway to make way.
I've mentioned this before, but French motorway sliproads have Cédez le passage [Give way] signs to make priorities clear, and although their sliproads are typically shorter than ours, I've never had a French driver assume I'd make way for him to merge.
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>> So who was the biggest berk? Them or me?
>>
I'd say even stevens.
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>> making sure that you are not hindering other traffic
>> already on the M-way around you.
Which is exactly what I said. My issue is with motorway joiners who expect users of lane 1 to give way to them, when they simply can't due to traffic in the outside lanes. It is the person on the slip road's responsibility to adjust their speed to find the gap, which will always be there is the person in lane 1 is driving at the correct distances from traffic in front and behind. Some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this latter point isn't the case, and that the traffic in lane 1 should adjust it's speed/positioning to "create" a gap whcih should already be there for the joiner to use.
This is why the Highway Code is writen the way it is, and it provides excellent clarity on the point, and encompasses the correct use of a motorway vis a vis the safe gap one should always keep between yourself and other vehicles.
Everyone here (including a policeman I'm surprised to say) seems to think otherwise. No wonder it's a mess. Abide by the Highway Code and we'll all be safer.
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I thi8nk it is a simple matter of courtesy, if travelling in lane and you see a vehicle coming down the slip road, to simply ease off a tad to allow them to join safely.
It takes no time at all, and makes for a better drive for both people.
The Highway Code assumes good road manners prevail, which of course they no longer do.
Pat
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>> I thi8nk it is a simple matter of courtesy, if travelling in lane and you
>> see a vehicle coming down the slip road, to simply ease off a tad to
>> allow them to join safely.
>>
>> It takes no time at all, and makes for a better drive for both people.
>>
>> The Highway Code assumes good road manners prevail, which of course they no longer do.
>>
>> Pat
Oh dear.
And when the person on the slip road is trying to follow the Highway Code, also eases off, casuing the person in lane 1 to do so again.......you end up with two cars alongside eachother at the end of the slip road, at least ones lamming the anchors on. Just as Stu described earlier in his post. And he's right.
Use the Highway Code. Saying "after you" when opening a door for someone is good manners, and yes wouldn't it be nice if we could use this principle on the road too. But the bloke in the other car can't hear you, and that's why there's a.....wait fot it..... HIGHWAY CODE! It's a code of manners if you like, to give us all the best chance possible of arriving alive. Why are so many people so hell bent on muddying the waters?
And another thing, good manners are just as common now as they have always been, as are bad. You just have to read this forum to know that! Plenty of rudeness on here from people who have been around a darned sight longer than me.
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 28 Apr 11 at 10:09
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It's hard to explain Alanovic, and at the risk of inflaming you even more, some have it and others don't.
I would liken it to a matter of perception of what's going on around you.
Having a picture in your head at all times of what is behind you in all three lanes as well as the slip road.
It can be done, it is done many times a day, so why do some people find it so difficult and have to try and do everything right according to a book of words that is written for guidance?
Surely common sense should prevail?
When a number of vehicles on the road can all manage that together, it is certainly an experience worth having, and what makes driving a pleasure for me.
Pat
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Pat, I'm not even remotely inflamed. You often seem to think I'm some kind of raging nutcase from your consistent put downs.
I suspect you don't travel on the M4 in the Thames Valley too much. Perhaps that's the difference. Sheer volumes of traffic where I live sadly crush your vision of bucolic harmony with fellow drivers. My 24 year record of drving in the most congested, demanding environment in the UK without being involved in a collision between vehicles does indicate that I'm at least a reasonably observant and competent driver, despite your implications.
I recognise the picture you paint, and I have experienced such heavenly moments of motoring nirvana. But usually not around here amongst the big boys.
I know, you want everyone to just be "nice". I hear this from my Mum all the time. I've lost count of the accidents she's been in over the years, none of which were, of course, her fault.
The principle we should all follow is to obey the Highway Code wherever possible. Not to interpret it accoring to our own standards of politeness.
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"You often seem to think I'm some kind of raging nutcase"
It's your red hair.
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>> Pat, I'm not even remotely inflamed.
To be fair, that's the impression I got from the "But the bloke in the other car can't hear you, and that's why there's a.....wait fot it..... HIGHWAY CODE!" sentence. Not inflamed perhaps, but definitely a good simmer :)
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Perhaps I shouldn't use sarcasm. On here or in general. I'm as chilled as a penguin's cold bits.
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>> >> But the bloke in the
>> other car can't hear you, and that's why there's a.....wait fot it..... HIGHWAY CODE!" sentence.
>> Not inflamed perhaps, but definitely a good simmer :)
>>
Stir gently over a low heat.
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>> Pat, I'm not even remotely inflamed.
>>
How many times have you experienced road rage - either as a giver or a receiver? Never? ( just like your accidents record? ).
>> bucolic harmony with fellow drivers. My 24 year record of drving in the most congested,
>> demanding environment in the UK without being involved in a collision between vehicles does indicate
>> that I'm at least a reasonably observant and competent driver, despite your implications.
>>
Ah, so you are the safe driver that never has accidents but always sees accidents in the mirror. ;-)
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I have 36 years experience of driving in an even more congested demanding environment, without being involved in a collision between two vehicles.
I have my collisions in the country, where the chances of hitting anything else are remote, but I managed it. Now that takes real skill. Anyone can hit cars in London.
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>> My 24 year record of drving in the most
>> congested,
>> >> demanding environment in the UK without being involved in a collision between vehicles
I have to retract that statement. A pick up reversed into me whilst I was stationary a couple of years ago.
I described an incident of road rage I was subjected to by an X-Trail driver a couple of years back, perhpas on the old forum. And also the brake test Ireceived a few weeks back from a Ka driver.
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>> The principle we should all follow is to obey the Highway Code wherever possible. Not
>> to interpret it accoring to our own standards of politeness.
>>
Rule 147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204). You should
- try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well
- be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake
- not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road.
- slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them
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I don't think any of us are arguing against any of that, John H.
Deliberately giving way when there's no need and thereby causing other road users to adjust speed and position does not fall under any of these worthy categories.
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Well, for the last 30 years I've managed to pilot a 44 tonne articulated lorry the length and breadth of Britain, including many miles in Central London but I may have missed the M4:)
I'm not putting you down, at least I am, but trying to do it gently!
>>I hear this from my Mum all the time. I've lost count of the accidents she's been in over the years, none of which were, of course, her fault.<<
That theory doesn't work because I'm very proud of my accident free record.
The only ones I have had, have been trying to reverse a quart into a pint pot and involved posts that are too low down to see!
One thing I have learned in those many miles though, is that we all think WE are the best driver on the road and the ONLY one doing it properly.
Pat
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>> lane 1 is driving at the correct distances from traffic in front and behind. Some
>> people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this latter point isn't the case,
>> and that the traffic in lane 1 should adjust it's speed/positioning to "create" a gap
>> whcih should already be there for the joiner to use.
There is no gap on the M25 in rush hour. Gaps get filled.
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>> There is no gap on the M25 in rush hour. Gaps get filled.
There is always a sufficient gap to enable zip merging on heavily congested motorways. Those already in lane 1 should not be being pushed out to the outer lanes. This is one of the main causes of traffic coming to a standstill on the M25 in peak times - the outer lanes having to slam the anchors on.
Have you noticed the worst standstills and bunching are just before a joining junction? That's because people aren't joining properly and those already on the carriageway are doing the wrong thing regarding joiners - giving way rather than driving at a sensible speed and distance for the conditions (the last three words being the most important), allowing the joiners to adjust their speeds and positions in order to zip merge.
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>> Have you noticed the worst standstills and bunching are just before a joining junction? That's
>> because people aren't joining properly and those already on the carriageway are doing the wrong
>> thing regarding joiners - giving way rather than driving at a sensible speed and distance
>> for the conditions (the last three words being the most important), allowing the joiners to
>> adjust their speeds and positions in order to zip merge.
>
No, I think you will find that the bunching just before junctions is due to volume, A full motorway gets more pushed into it. Its like water. And when that water is already flowing at 10-15 mph, zipping is very hard. Its much easier to join a motorway at speed, than when its slow.
Oh, and you do get very easily riled. ;)
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 28 Apr 11 at 10:59
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>> Oh, and you do get very easily riled. ;)
>>
Go on. Blame it on the ginge. You know you want to. ;-)
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No I think it because you are a communist.
I have this mental picture of you looking like Bob Crowe, ;)
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It's comical watching this situation sometimes.
1. Driver on the carriageway slows a little to make room.
2. Driver on the slip road slows a little to let them pass and join after.
3. Driver on the carriageway slows a little more, "you first".
(repeat 2 & 3 a couple of times times)
4. Both drivers jam on the anchors to avoid a collision.
Although i'm not a fan of the automatic move to lane 2 instilled in some driver's minds, but by all means if you're not about to be overtaken, it's only polite to move out.
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>> Although i'm not a fan of the automatic move to lane 2 instilled in some driver's minds, but
>> by all means if you're not about to be overtaken, it's only polite to move out.
This is what I always do. And not just for new joiners at slip roads. I anticipate what others might do and move over if appropriate and safe. In my example above it was not safe/possible.
For example, someone in lane 1 is fast approaching the slower lorry in front and you're in lane 2. You can see when you are going to be close to them they will want to move over to lane 2. So before they indicate they might do that I'll try to move to lane 3. If they don't then I've avoided their sudden movement. This is how I was taught by my instructor on the motorway anyway.
For safe motorway driving you need to anticipate and react early IMO. And that way it makes it a more relaxing drive. This is what IMO Rattle could do with learning for the motorways.
The other thing I find handy is plenty of acceleration in your car when you need it to avoid what another idiot will do. Which is why I opted for the 170PS Passat - the lower powered 140PS didn't have the ability to accelerate well in 6th without changing down.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 18:17
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I for one am fed up of totally stupid drivers already on the A14 trying to give way to me when Im coming down the rather short sliproads.
I go down the slip road, I get a split second to pick a gap in traffic which require either more speed or less speed depending on where traffic is.
If I then have to contend with some damn fool slamming on the anchors in some foolish attempt to 'help', that spot which ive picked out behind a car which had it stayed at a constant speed, would have slid by creating a nice Ignis sized gap for me, is now full of that very car meaning I have to floor it and hope I make it past or brake hard to try and make the original space assuming someone else hasnt already piled into the back of the 'traffic management expert'.
The whole point of having points where you give way is that you get, to a fair degree, an idea of how other cars will react. So long as people dont tailgate on the main carriageway, there will always be time to spot a gap and adjust you approach down the slip road.
Having two drivers trying to second guess who will give way at 70 mph is lunacy, which is why we have the notion of one giving way to another.
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Not entirely what's difficult here to be honest. Basic stuff really. Common sense, courtesy and a bit of observation. Can all still be achieved while drinking coffee, smoking, eating and taking a phone call...Best to leave the rummaging on the back seat in your briefcase for your diary for the stretches between junctions though, it's not really safe to take your seatbelt off otherwise....
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As you say Humph, and as Zero says. It's all completely elementary and there's no issue that needs discussing.
Alas though, elementary is a bit advanced for many.
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>> Alas though, elementary is a bit advanced for many.
>>
The OP is a wild beast. ;-)
Last edited by: John H on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 19:30
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Of course every normal minded competent driver makes room for a joiner, if it's safe to do so and your not going to baulk others.
However this doesn't give mindless half blind fools the right to mince along the slip road in a dream, cruise down the acceleration lane lurching up to the heady heights of 51 mph whilst fiddling with their radio, then 25 yards from the end realise they are beside a 60 ft long truck...where they've been for the last 500 yards.
I've given up driving other people's cars for them.
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The berks on slip roads are now taught this:
"When joining a motorway you usually join from a roundabout or a main road by means of a slip road. This leads to an acceleration lane. The rule here is not to interfere with the traffic already on the motorway. Make sure your speed is the same as the traffic already on the motorway. Vehicles already on the motorway usually realise you need to join the main carriageway and they try and move over to the other lane. (This is not always possible if the traffic is busy). This makes room for you to join the first lane of the motorway. "
Search the web and you will find examples of lots of driving schools giving that advice.
BTW, this has also been a hot topic on HJ in recent days
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=90722
The OP there says HJ does not allow links to the Telegraph! Shirley some mishtake.
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I think part of the problem is caused by the muppets who start slowing down as they approach the exit lane, causing traffic behind to slow and start bunching when the motorway's busy.
I don't know whether they're frightened senseless at the thought of missing a turnoff that's posted a mile in advance, transfixed with the terror of making a high speed manoeuvre as they have to adjust course slightly onto the exit slip, or think their brakes will not be up to the job of slowing their car within 100 or more yards, but I see them every day, slowing to 50 or even 40mph anything up to a mile from the slip road.
This has a knock on effect with traffic going straight on - especially at peak times when the amount of traffic can mean pulling into the middle lane to go around the muppet is not an option - and leads to a closely bunched line of slow moving traffic going towards the joining slip road.
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I tend to keep out of the way of other people if I can, so moving in to lane 2 is natural if there is space to move into without blocking somebody else. If I can't, I maintain a steady speed and a decent gap in front so that the joiner can sort himself out with me second guessing where he should slot in.
Even so, somebody moves across and makes me brake now and then.
When a joiner, I take responsibility for finding a gap. I often drop back on a one lane slip, like those on the A41 Chiltern section, if I'm behind a slow car so I have room to accelerate before joining.
HJ has a point, perhaps not expressed as well as it could be - his first sentence is clearly wrong, but crashes probably do result from confrontational lane one-ers and sensible folk will live and let live if there's little cost or inconvenience to themselves.
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The worst one I have suffered was a dead quiet Sunday morning along the A11. I see driver coming down the on ramp in the distance (no other cars on the road ahead or behind me), I move to lane two as I estimate I will be blocking them otherwise, driver pulls onto lane one and then continues to pull into lane two, forcing me to brake hard to avoid a crash. As I brake they hear or see me and were so unaware of my being on the road they almost swerve off in surprise...
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On the odd occasion when coming down a slip road (usually without a very good view of the motorway, like the M23 Crawley south, joining northbound)) and I found myself travelling at about the same speed as a truck, I would just back off a little and use the hard shoulder for a short distance until the truck had passed.
Here in sunny Sweden they just push in without any attempt to merge. Not usually a problem as the motorways are deserted. Although I caught one guy out that didn't realise I was towing a long trailer. I had nowhere to go, and he reluctantly backed off enough to let me pass, but then had a shock when he saw the trailer.
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But perhaps it's all we should expect from someone who drives in a hat.
See my stereotypes thread.
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>> But perhaps it's all we should expect from someone who drives in a hat.
>>
>>
>> See my stereotypes thread.
>>
can't find it.
stereotypically lazy of you not to provide a link. ;-)
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See my stereotypes thread.
I did.
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A slip road is no more than a mis-shapen T-junction.
It's up to the joiner to give way.
Everyone then knows where they stand.
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>>It's up to the joiner to give way.<<
It is, but should never need to happen if the joiner is driving well.
Pat
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Exactly, Pat - but giving way starts well before you get to the dotted line. You pick your gap the moment you get a clear view from the sliproad of the traffic in lane 1, then adjust your speed up or down to slot into it without inconveniencing anyone. If there is no gap at first, you have time to slow down progressively and wait till one appears, with the last-resort option of stopping at the line.
This is easy in a modern, well-powered car, but I used to manage it in our gutless 1.4 Fabia through some vigorous use of the gearbox. Perhaps it comes down to instruction - I used to drive the A34 with my instructor to practise on the test routes in Oxford, so I learned early about fast roads; many city-bound learners don't pass 40mph before they take the test.
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"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."
Not my words...
:-)
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>> if the joiner is driving well.
Not just the joiner Pat, but those in the nearside lane of the motorway too.
If they are rigid, self-righteous and obsessed with the 'highway code' they can make a dangerous nuisance of themselves. I've seen them do it.
This thread is generating heat but I don't understand why. The entire issue is pure nursery-school level. I am sure that even those insisting on the rights of the slow-lane driver and how they overrule the earnest hopes of the sliproad motorway joiner and serve the carphound right, do what I do when they see a vehicle coming down a sliproad to join in front of or alongside them: glance in mirror, get out into second lane and proceed at undiminished speed, which ought to be a whisker over the motorway limit.
I am sure even Alanovic does that. What's all the fuss about?
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I do indeed, AC. But only when there is no-one else outside of me who I would cause to adjust speed or position.
The fuss is that HJ, a respected Motoring Journalist, seems to be advocating a position entirely at odds with the Highway Code, i.e. that those on the motorway should always look to give way to those joining.
This is dangerous, misleading and silly advice.
BTW, did you deliberatley call the inside lane the "slow lane"? This seems to be a habit of older drivers, and it is of course a misnomer. It gives the more suggestible the impression that other lanes are "fast", and of course, gives rise to the middle lane (and increasingly outer lane) hoggers who think themselves too spritely for the "slow" lane, and never pull left. These are the real craphounds.
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>> dangerous, misleading and silly advice.
No it isn't. It applies to all areas of driving, highway code or no highway code.
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We do seem to be digging mountains out of molehills here. For the most part millions of people join motorways every day without holding people up, causing pile ups, or even for the most part being noted or worthy of comment.
Its an everyday part of driving. Don't think it need to be analysed.
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>>But only when there is no-one else outside of me who I would cause to adjust speed or position.<<
There are many car drivers who will do exactly that when they see a lorry coming down the slip road.
Watching for a gap in the mirror, it's common to see the indicators go on on both the car in the nearside and middle lane and both move over effortlessly.
What's wrong with that if it doesn't impede anyone else?
It's certainly one of those moments when you know you're sharing the road with drivers who are fully aware of their surroundings and courteous to other road users.
You may notice too that a lot of lorries in the nearside lane will 'flash' a car driver out into the carriageway as they come along the slip road.
It's not meant to drive their car for them...it's a way of ensuring both the car and the lorry know who is doing what and works very well.
Pat
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Tend to agree with you Z ( crickey ! ) I wasn't really concious of a problem in the first place. Merging or aiding merging is pretty basic stuff. Don't much think about it in advance, just adapt to the conditions at the time and place. I think it's called driving.
:-)
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Any crashes that occur are often the result of stupidity or bloody mindedness by drivers on the carriageway who refuse to give way to the vehicles joining.
This does NOT say "all cars on the carriageway should give way to vehicles joining."
It says "Crashes... are ... the result of ... drivers on the carriageway who refuse to give way."
Quite a different point not expressing the universality that OP has suggested, but suggesting that in certain conditions the rule about general courtesy is not benig followed.
All to often, Alanovic' there isn't a car-sized gap in the inner lane, but one can easily be created by a car in that lane easing off/speeding up.
And in the unlikely event we get a Stu situation with "after you" "no, after you" then the situation is no worse than the original insoluble situation.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 29 Apr 11 at 11:57
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I wish I could have put it like that:)
Pat
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>> All to often, Alanovic' there isn't a car-sized gap in the inner lane, but one
>> can easily be created by a car in that lane easing off/speeding up.
!!!!!!!
Then you're driving too close to the traffic around you if you have to "create" a car sized gap. Good grief, are you seriously suggesting it's OK to drive on the motorway at 70mph with less than a car's length between you and other vehicle? No wonder there are so many tailgaters.
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Tovarich, have you ever driven the M25 northbound J10 to 13 in the rush hour? The gaps between cars are measured in cm's.
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>> then you're driving too close
Loads of good points AV but nail on the head there. This is just never an issue if you leave a gap. No messing about, job done.
Anyone else can do whatever they want, do their worst, mimse, race, fail to signal, barge, chicken out... I'll handle it with my eyes closed, all thanks to the gap.
The only folks you see struggling with this are the ones without a safe gap.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 29 Apr 11 at 11:57
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>> Loads of good points AV but nail on the head there.
>>
Is that a "Yes2AV"?? Hee hee.
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I rarely see any struggling.
Anyway, you all forget, this safe gap you leave? its no longer safe when a car slides in from the slip road. So what do you do? leave it unsafe?
No you dont, you back off a tad dont you.
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Well, yes, but they're in then, aren't they? That's not what we're discussing here.
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You know, It seems to me, that despite all contributors trying their best to put forward their point of view on this subject and frankly most others that it changes nothing and the only result is the discussion ( argument? ) itself.
Those who hold strong opinions on subjects rarely change them even if they read a reasoned counterpoint on a forum. I am as guilty as anyone of this I freely admit.
However, it probably doesn't pay to recognise and admit to the futility of it all. Potentially too depressing I suppose.
Hope everyone has a good long weekend however they are spending it. Safe and relaxed merging everyone and to those who haven't got the hang of it yet may it come to you in time...
:-)
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As I said earlier
>>is that we all think WE are the best driver on the road and the ONLY one doing it properly.<<
Pat
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I don't think I'm deluded enough to think of myself as perfect but I do find it pays to at least assume that all other road users are probably retarded, drunk, blind and / or psychopaths. Of course they aren't all but when one or more of them exhibits those characteristics or behaves in such a manner as to arouse your suspicions of their ineptitudes or mental frailty you are so much more ready for it and far less disappointed..
:-)
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All those kindred spirits eh Humph!
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>> !!!!!!!
>>
>> Then you're driving too close to the traffic around you if you have to "create"
>> a car sized gap. Good grief, are you seriously suggesting it's OK to drive on
>> the motorway at 70mph with less than a car's length between you and other vehicle?
>> No wonder there are so many tailgaters.
Don't be so argumentative.
If a car is 4898mm long (Omega) then a car-sized gap is about 15m. I wouldn't choose to put my car/allow somebody else's into a gap smaller than that. Anything smaller than that isn't a car-sized gap.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you're driving 4898mm behind the car in front that you are happy to let a car into the gap? No wonder there are so many tailgaters.
Humph, I read the OP with some agreement, then read AC's response and reached the bottom of the thread, and then re-read the starting proposition having taken both points of view. I am not now going to be swayed!
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15 metres! good lord, there is another one who doesnt drive on the M25.
If we all drove like that we could only get 28,200 (assuming three lanes) cars on in one go in one direction.
No-one would get anywhere!
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Are you allowing for the outer lane being longer than the inner one, Z?
}:---)
So at 45 mph (20 m/s) you'd have about three quarters of a second to react before the car in front became the car in your lap. At 70 mph, you'd have less than half a second. It would be like facing Michael Holding.
Remember that the old Driving Test stopping distances reckon it takes about two thirds of a second to react and hit the brakes.
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The closer you are to the car in front, the less speed differential between you when he begins his deceleration and hence less damage and safer.
The safest distance is actually touching the car in front, leaning on him as hard as you can.
Only skilled M25 drivers can do it tho.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 28 Apr 11 at 16:00
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>> Are you allowing for the outer lane being longer than the inner one, Z?
>> }:---)
To be honest, no. Lets say inner, anticlockwise, to be on the safe side.
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>> Are you allowing for the outer lane being longer than the inner one, Z?
Radio 2 picked the nation's brains on exactly this question a couple of months ago. The definitive answer, reached by calculation, use of satellite images and from a truck driver who'd driven round it for charity, is that the outermost clockwise lane of the M25 is about 100 metres longer than the innermost anticlockwise lane.
So that's 100m/15m = 6 and a bit more cars then :)
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C = 2*(pi)*R
= 6.3*R
Assuming the outermost lane in 20m further out than the innermost gives an extra 120m or so.
Increasing radius has a much more obvious effect when the circle is smaller.
ie. if you tied a rope around the entire circumference of the Earth, and then wanted it to be lifted up 2m by people around the circumference, you'd only need an exta 12m of rope.
/Johnny Ball
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>> Don't be so argumentative.
Why? It's a discussion forum.
Same old MM. You twist and turn like a twisty turny thing.
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Excellent! :-) Thanks, Alanovic.
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HJ has really gone over the top today.
Some soul moaning about small cracks in his house that he thinks might be related to a speed hump in the road (unlikely in my professional opinion). His advice is to sue the council for the full cost of rebuilding the whole house!! Like a judge is really going to award that!
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Wow, have to wonder what he smokes...
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