www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8467135/Charity-worker-escapes-sinking-car-as-four-family-members-die.html
I wonder how much of it was frustration at one driver driving slowly and looking at the view...and the other one wishing to travel faster than that and making a hash of an overtake.
In Scotland, there's Police notices about pulling in and letting following vehicles overtake. The locals do that very well. Tourists often don't.
In England you'd have no hope in hell of anyone being that courteous..or even thinking about it...it is either completely off the agenda i.e. doesn't cross anyone's mind...or the view seems to be 'sod you, you can stay where you are'.
I can't remember the exact wording, but the Scottish signs say something like 'Allow overtaking, frustration causes accidents'.
They're not wrong are they.
Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 13:13
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"In England you'd have no hope in hell of anyone being that courteous..or even thinking about it"
I see it quite a lot round here actually. Must say I didn't see much evidence of this wonderfully courteous driving in Scotland last year. Drivers were about the same mix of good driving, impatience and incompetence as they are everywhere else.
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You wait. Some plonker will suggest a speed camera...
Perhaps those that are on holiday and doing touristy things could put a little sign in the rear window saying 'admiring the scenery, please pass' Then following drivers will know why they are dawdling and will probably more patient with someone looking at the view rather than seeming to be dawdling for the sake of it.
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>> but the Scottish signs say something like 'Allow overtaking, frustration causes accidents'.
Yeah i know the ones, orange background and white lettering, there's some on the A9 but i can't remember where and it's too long to streetview looking for them :-)
>> I didn't see much evidence of this wonderfully courteous driving in Scotland last year
Drivers are mostly the same everywhere in the UK, Scotland has about the same share of muppets as England i'd guess.
The one bit that you will notice a distinct difference in Scotland is if you're waiting to pull out a junction into busy traffic.
Any idea that we have lane discipline up here or no impatient types would be a bit far fetched though!
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"In England you'd have no hope in hell of anyone being that courteous..or even thinking about it...it is either completely off the agenda i.e. doesn't cross anyone's mind...or the view seems to be 'sod you, you can stay where you are'."
In deepest darkest Staffordshire, everyone gives way on ountry roads: many are single track with passing places.
My last journey to Leek included stopping and giving way for:
several cars
several horses
a tractor - ginormous.
a lorry
a pheasant (male) with no brains or road sense.
a rabbit
Last edited by: madf on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 14:32
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A driver who suffers from frustration issues behind the wheel needs taking off the road rather than having traffic part like the Red Sea to avoid them having a tantrum.
Cause of this accident appears to be inability to drive properly, overtaking isnt rocket science, infact its one of the simpler tasks on the road and clipping the back of a car when overtaking is simply a matter of being too close ( have to wonder how he thought he could see round an 807 if he was close enough to hit it ).
I was stuck behind many cars on a temporary basis across the Fens Weds night and had no problem waiting for suitable opportunities to pass, it never occurred to me to demand the person infront jump out my way.
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No-one yet knows the cause of this accident. The rest is just mere speculation.
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>> No-one yet knows the cause of this accident. The rest is just mere speculation.
>>
Agreed. The photos in the Mail show the Mondeo with damage on the driver's side.
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/21/article-1378963-0BB6F33D00000578-418_634x307.jpg
Strong possibility that Mondeo driver came around a bend to find a slow moving car in his path.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 16:24
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>> No-one yet knows the cause of this accident. The rest is just mere speculation.
>>
I agree.
Press reports say
Tthe Mondeo driver was a garage mechanic aged 23 who had recentl passed his test.
He was overtaking ? The front of the Mondeo was damaged.
Lots there to speculate about.
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i think the inability to drive properly lies with the people who think its ok to drive at 10mph while looking the wrong way at the views. if you want to look at the scenery get out of your car and stop being so selfish to keep all other traffic behind you.
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I don't think any sightseers drive at 10 mph and the people involved in the tragedy were all local in any event, and presumably familiar with the scenery, so far as the reports can be relied on.
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It's weird, a few seconds either side of the location M posted there's good visibility for overtaking. Could be the young drivers inexperience. Its not as if we teach learners how to overtake, it's not hard to understand how some people end up dangerous at it.
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'part like the Red Sea'...'jump out of my way'.
Can I take it then that you would not consider pulling over to let another vehicle past, if you weren't in a particular hurry?
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No I wouldnt unless I had a need to travel well below the limit, but I would make sure I gave them good sight on any given overtaking opprtunity and back off if they made a move.
I dont have a preference for cars infront of me diving into lay-bys at short notice because they perceive I want to pass, id rather make up my own mind how to get around them rather than be waiting for them to do something they may or may not do.
I had a car following on my tail the other day, posh looking girl in a Volvo. You would assume from her proximity that she wanted to pass given that she could have jumped from her bonnet onto my car, but when presented with over a mile of well-sighted overtaking opportunity, totally clear from traffic, she stuck resolutely to my bumper - I even shaved 10 mph off my speed and still the stupid woman wouldnt go away so I booted it and left her behind.
Point being, unless you have a clear indication from the driver behind, theres no way of knowing whether they are an insanely stupid tailgater or they want to pass. You could spend a huge amount of a journey pulling over everytime there was a car behind you.
On a quiet Sunday morning, the principle may work, in rush hour, if everyone pulls over at the sight of a car behind them, your gonna need ALOT more lay-bys.
Last edited by: KosaiIggypop on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 22:50
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>> You would assume from her proximity that she wanted to pass given that she could have
>> jumped from her bonnet onto my car, but when presented with over a mile of well-sighted
>> overtaking opportunity, totally clear from traffic, she stuck resolutely to my bumper - I even
>> shaved 10 mph off my speed and still the stupid woman wouldnt go away so I booted it and
>> left her behind.
Happens all to often this. They think they want to and can go faster and then for some reason decide not to.
When I was test driving a Passat CC I did the Snake Pass in daylight and night. In the day I felt confident in a fairly unfamiliar car to press on. But on two occasions there was someone behind who could and would go faster and I let them by when safely - they then were speeding.
At night there was someone wanting me to press on but I was out to get an opinion of the bi-xenons so happy for them to get on past but they wouldn't/couldn't. Right up behind just before corners but powering out they dropped back. Then they sped on the straights and caught be just before the next bends and then it was repeated. If I felt more confident in the car and wasn't also trying to get an opinion on the adaptive bi-xenon light maybe I'd have got faster into/through some corners. But the idiot soon dropped back when I accelerated. Not many places on the Snake Pass to pull in.
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>> I dont have a preference for cars infront of me diving into lay-bys at short
>> notice because they perceive I want to pass, id rather make up my own mind
>> how to get around them rather than be waiting for them to do something they
>> may or may not do.
>>
I'm talking about driving along a scenic route (Dartmoor, North Wales, Peak District, Scottish Highlands or wherever it may be). Taking in the view, not in a particular hurry, but not at walking pace either...
...someone comes up behind you that clearly wishes to travel faster than you. Do you:
A, Ignore them, it's their problem.
B, Try and facilitate their progress (pull in tight to the left, left hand indicator, throttle off a bit on a brief straight bit, pull in to a lay by and then pull straight out again, etc)
I think it should be Option B.
...and 'no' i'm not suggesting a busy road should have you constantly pulling in, you'd take an age getting anywhere.
I am however saying 'common sense should be applied'.
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I think B is what should be done. This is what I tried recently.
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>> B, Try and facilitate their progress (pull in tight to the left, left hand indicator,
>> throttle off a bit on a brief straight bit, pull in to a lay by
>> and then pull straight out again, etc)
>>
>> I think it should be Option B.
>>
>> ...and 'no' i'm not suggesting a busy road should have you constantly pulling in, you'd
>> take an age getting anywhere.
>>
>> I am however saying 'common sense should be applied'.
Indeed, however its a very short step between facilitating an overtake and being dangerously unpredictable.
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>> Indeed, however its a very short step between facilitating an overtake and being dangerously unpredictable.
I expect that most experienced drivers would recognise the difference between the two.
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>> very short step between facilitating an overtake and being dangerously unpredictable.
The vehicles that come up very fast from behind on A roads are nearly always motor bikes, quite often in groups of two or three. There's no need to slow down for them but when I think they can overtake I blip the left flasher. I am usually well in on my side of the road anyway. More often than not they acknowledge the courtesy with a lift of the left hand as they pass.
On the fairly rare occasions when a car comes up very fast I do the same thing, but car drivers are a different kettle of fish and more often than not, don't have the bottle to overtake even in easy places. Usually though they creep up on one until they are tailgating, then stay there through thick and thin, the twerps. Any sequence of difficult bends will see them drop back quite a long way. Then they creep back up one's jaxie. The twerps.
I don't understand what happened in the reservoir crash. Offside front damage to the mechanic's car suggests though that the victim vehicle was heading across the road to a layby on the right side, and the mechanic was simply too impatient in his undertaking manoeuvre. If so, a clear case of dangerous driving even if the victim vehicle hesitated or jinked back in mid-manoeuvre (the sort of thing people often do). An unusually awful outcome though.
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"in deepest darkest Staffordshire, everyone gives way on ountry roads:"
I think it's the same in most rural areas.
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If I'm out for a dawdle on the minor roads around the caravan, I will pull over or slow to let someone pass.
Provided it's not some muppet tailgating me in his X-Type. :)
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 18:15
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>> Provided it's not some muppet tailgating me in his X-Type. :)
>>
Glorified Mondeo, surely?....;-)
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I know that road - it's a stunningly beautiful bit of road and largely off the beaten track. The locals use it to avoid large chunks of the A470 which can be busy. Used it last time on Rememberence Sunday on a trip back from Swansea (no rush to get home).
The item has led the headlines on the BBC Wales news this week- unbelievably sad, the victims were all round good eggs in Pontypridd - long term foster parents and pillars of the local community. No insight into the accident on the news other than both cars were going in the same direction so WP's theory holds water.
There was a vox-pop from Llanidloes on the news most of the locals seemed to think "something needs to be done".
Unimaginable grief for the relatives of the deceased...very, very sad.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 18:16
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>> orange background and white lettering, there's some on the A9
I'd suggest they are targeted more towards lorry drivers on the single carriageway stretches, who have to stick to 40mph while cars are permitted to do 60.
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The A9 is of course a notorious road for overtaking accidents. Single carriageway, some very fast traffic, bends and crests. I quite like the A9 myself, and it's hard to see why anybody should come to grief if all behaved sensibly, but there it is.
On topic, it appears to be accepted that the family were travelling slowly and sightseeing. Frustrating though that can be for others wanting to knock on, it is a fact of life on scenic routes and something a good driver should expect and deal with - not get wound up by.
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Why is it "accepted" the family were travelling "slowly"? The accident investigation has not been published. I suppose this is only semi victim-blaming.
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>> Why is it "accepted" the family were travelling "slowly"? The accident investigation has not been
>> published. I suppose this is only semi victim-blaming.
>>
No.
I am going by the news report linked in the OP.
"It is understood she was travelling slowly, taking in the views at the Bwlch y Gle Dam when the Mondeo allegedly overtook, clipping their car at about 2.30pm. "
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On reflection NortonES2, I infer that you might think I am blaming the victim by my choice of word. That was not intended. I meant accepted in the sense of "not in dispute" - as lawyers say, "admitted", but I avoided that word for the very reason of not wanting to sound condemnatory.
It is a terrible tragedy for the poor woman, and blame is largely irrelevant - I dare say that, as the driver, she will feel terrible guilt regardless of whether she could reasonably have avoided what happened.
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As I said: the facts are not necessarily as reported. I know only what has been published, but as someone who has been involved in a number of coroners inquests/fatal accident investigations I think most press reports are agenda driven. Not to mention lousy.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Fri 22 Apr 11 at 20:55
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Driving up the A65 from Skipton to Settle early this am I was stuck in a long queue behind a Jazz, pootling along at 30/35 in a NSL. There were several potentially suicidal overtaking manoeuvres ahead of me which made me cringe and I was still in the queue 14 miles later.
However, if the driver had pulled over, assuming he/she was aware of the traffic behind, then some 5 minutes later there would be another queue given the amount of traffic on the road this BH Friday.
My best option was to stick on a Dr Hook CD, enjoy the sun with the roof down, and watch the fun & games up front.
Easy to see why collisions occur.
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...I think most press reports are agenda driven. Not to mention lousy...
You are looking for conspiracies where there are none.
Simple report of a road traffic collision, pieced together as best as possible on the information available, which won't have been much.
A bit more caution required than usual because the Mondeo driver has been arrested, so proceedings are clearly active.
Equally, there's a police appeal for witnesses which the press are more or less obliged - and quite content - to publish.
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>>The distraught garage mechanic - who The Sun revealed yesterday recently completed a driving ban - claimed Denise suddenly veered in front of him after spotting a layby.
<<
Should his previous ban reflect upon the speculation?
Pat
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Death by dangerous x 4 is a long stretch in anybody's book.
"She veered in front of me" is as good a defence as any, and to be fair to the lad he's come up with it straight away.
If there's a trial, it will be an unusual one because both drivers will be able to give evidence.
There's usually no witness account from the injured party's car for obvious reasons.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 23 Apr 11 at 08:46
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An earlier post quotes a press report saying
The Mondeo driver was a garage mechanic aged 23 who had recently passed his test.
and another report says he had just completed a driving ban, length not stated.
Wherever he finishes up, insurance in the future, is going to present a problem
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Whatever any possible prosecution is brought he has to live with the consequences of what happened.
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Reservoir car crash
>>>>
>>>>>> i drive down this road whenever im on holiday in the region,i will drive very slowly taking in the view,i will stop where it is safe to,i will be 100% alert for other road users,however i cannot be the eyes for every other driver and taking in the fact that this is a b road you should drive within your safety zone as round the next bend could be a child a sheep a horse or a cyclist so i always find the problem drivers are locals who know local roads and believe unjustifiably that they wont have an accident
dont believe me?
pick up your local rag and read who died in the latest local car accident and see how local they were to the scene or if they were involved in the accident but lived
i have the same problem where i live but have recently had the police cautioning and if necessary giving tickets for driving in a manner that affects lives,none of us goes out and expects to be in an RTA especially if on holiday so next time any of you are in a hurry to get to some pointless meeting think your own family could be coming the other way
............................message ends.........
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In a situation where people want to drive slowly doing something else such as sightseeing and are not fully aware of what's going off around them, a couple of quick peeps on the horn would help stop many accidents.
In other countries, people beep to show their presence and beep back to acknowledge, but in the UK, the EGO rules the road, and the person being beeped at would often go berserk with rage. (as I have often observed)
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>> In other countries, people beep to show their presence
Same with a brief flash of headlamps. It ought to mean 'just letting you know there's someone here'.....in reality, for some it's evolved in to ' get out of the f'ing way' and even if you meant the former when doing it, many interpret it as the latter.
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>> In other countries, people beep to show their presence and beep back to acknowledge, but
>> in the UK, the EGO rules the road, and the person being beeped at would
>> often go berserk with rage. (as I have often observed)
See that from the push bike sometimes. Pedestrian in road or about to step out so I ping bell as a warning. Intention is to draw their attention and establish eye contact. That done it's easy to wave them across or otherwise manage the pass.Save them from them spotting me at last minute and dancing around in road. Most times it works and theirs a smile and acknowledement but just occasionally it results in a mouthful of abuse.
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>> it results in a mouthful of abuse.
So often the case Bromptonaut. Some people have a pathological hatred of cyclists. Only yesterday I was cycling on a section near here where the pavement is split into walking and cycling areas. I came up behind a family walking spread out across the two areas. A polite "excuse me" resulted in a tirade of abuse despite the fact they were walking in the cycle lane which for added visibility is a different colour of surface to the rest of the pavement and has large white painted stylised illustrations of bikes on it...
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My mountain bike brake levers have a very strong spring and make a loud clack when touched and released... they act as my bell. In circumstances like you describe Humph a couple of clacks about 10ft behind the group and they look round to see what's dropped on the path then usually move over.
That's assuming they haven't already heard the hum of my tractor tyres from a way back :-)
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Fault on both sides.
There are a significant number of cyclists who seem to think their environmentally superior mode of transport gives them rights over and above other road users.
Holier than thou idiots who deserve to get knocked off.
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Still doesn't excuse the regular verbal abuse even polite and legal cyclists suffer at the hands of ignorant prejudiced twonks who fail to grasp the basic principles of sharing public spaces. Works both ways.
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>> Still doesn't excuse the regular verbal abuse even polite and legal cyclists suffer at the
>> hands of ignorant prejudiced twonks who fail to grasp the basic principles of sharing public
>> spaces. Works both ways.
There is no sharing of public spaces. Where there is no marked cycle path, cyclists have to give way to pedestrians. End of.
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Try reading my post again. The example I gave is a cycle path but don't let that stand in the way of your prejudice will you...
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If you read my post (which clearly you didnt) you will see I acknowledged that. If you look closely you can just make out the words "Where there is no marked cycle path" see them? they are there.
And just for good measure you are just as prejudiced about your cycling as those who are not so dont you start getting stroppy with me Humph!
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>> And just for good measure you are just as prejudiced about your cycling as those
>> who are not so dont you start getting stroppy with me Humph!
It's the heat.
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Yeah prickly heat brought on by wearing that skin tight spandex cycling suit.
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>> There are a significant number of cyclists who seem to think their environmentally superior mode
>> of transport gives them rights over and above other road users.
>>
>> Holier than thou idiots who deserve to get knocked off
I'd see it slightly differently. Cyclists have rights as road users but some car drivers ignore them, others lack the skills to observe and react. For example I was out two weeks ago with 20 other folder riders on a trip round Princes Risborough & Thame. Apart from the close passes there were two instances where driver commences overtake of a skein of cyclists 100m before he needs to turn left. Of course he cannot possibly complete the manouvre and either pushes between the bikes or has to wait until we re-pass and he's behind again.
Cyclists need to be assertive in claiming their part of the road and some of our number edge over from assertive to aggressive,
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>> I'd see it slightly differently. Cyclists have rights as road users but some car drivers
>> ignore them, others lack the skills to observe and react. For example I was out
>> two weeks ago with 20 other folder riders on a trip round Princes Risborough &
>> Thame. Apart from the close passes there were two instances where driver commences overtake of a skein of cyclists.....
20 riders in one group, or split into groups of say 5?
IF its 20 in one group, that is nothing more than a dangerous, wobbly, mobile road block.
I know P.R. and Thame fairly well, and the roads are NOT suitable for a block of 20 cycles, without causing major hold-ups.
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Re "the roads are NOT suitable for a block of 20 cycles". Same applies to cars. Tend to congregate in long lines, coagulation for miles, blocking the road, driving along pavements, jumping the lights. Should be stamped out:)
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TBH swiss you have a point.
We were on the Phoenix sustrans route from PR to Thame and back was mostly on unclassified lanes. There was however a short stretch on B road. If I were the ride leader, as well as instructing us to single up, I'd have dispatched in groups but the guy in charge this time did not. It was only half a mile or so and an each way call.
However, whatever the obstruction of a skein of bikes there's no explanation for starting to pass when you know you're turning left before you've passed more than three of them.
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I bet they wern't riding in single file to keep all the other road users moving as well.
Pat
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>> in single file to keep all the other road users moving as well.
Bit like trucks then...
:-)
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At least we can steer in a straight line without wobbling.
Pat
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Indeed, some are very good at that, particularly on busy motorways I find. Side by side, speeds matched almost perfectly, straight as a die, mile after mile after mile after mile...Admirable skill...
:-)
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>> I came up behind a family walking spread out across the two
>> areas. A polite "excuse me" resulted in a tirade of abuse
Great example to the children then, who will probably grow up aggressively kicking off about everything that is not exactly as they would like it to be.
Trite as it may be, the most useful thing children can learn is that to be happy, you have to be happy... including when encountering sporran-wearing red-haired ciclisti. Instead of which these parents are training up sociopaths.
Mutter mutter... no wonder the country's going to the dogs...
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>> Great example to the children then, who will probably grow up aggressively kicking off about
>> everything that is not exactly as they would like it to be.
Biked round Lake Vyrnywy yesterday. Most cars OK except the 307 who's child passengers were allowed/encouraged to chant 'get off the road' while waiting for a space to get past.
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>> Yeah i know the ones, orange background and white lettering, there's some on the A9
>> but i can't remember where and it's too long to streetview looking for them :-)
Was up that way yesterday and today, so here's one set...
goo.gl/tTVgh
and
goo.gl/Aefb3
The A9 is actually pretty nice now. It's mostly resurfaced as far as near inverness, which is still like the dark side of the moon in some parts.
A lot of the turns have been eliminated or made simpler -- often with helpful elevation changes giving better visibility for overtaking.
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>> >>
>> In England ....>>
>>
Llanidloes is in Wales.
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Cliff,
I saw a clip on Youtube quoting the OED as follows. "Wales - See England" I couldn't disagree more btw
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>> >> In England ....>>
>> >>
>> Llanidloes is in Wales.
>>
So? The OP didn't say otherwise.
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It was implied. He was refering to the standard of English driving with reference to the reservoir crash.
There would be no point in drawing attention to poor English driving with a reference to an accident in, say, Mongolia.
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Picking up Humph's comments about blocks of pedestrians, I think all road users need to think about the effect they have when they travel in clumps.
Some examples from my own experience, a couple from each point of view.
Cyclists. I'm one, both for transport (solo) and for fun with the family. We think four of us in line would be too much for drivers to pass safely - especially when one of us is only eight years old - so when we're on trafficked roads we travel in two pairs, youngest Beest just in front of me and his 10yo brother in charge of his mum, a minute or so ahead.
Cars in convoy. Those here who, like me, play recreational team sports will know this one. Only two out of eleven have been to the opposition's ground before; none of the others have bothered to look it up. "Don't worry, we'll follow you!" Driving the lead car is awful - you find yourself waiting for gaps at roundabouts that are big enough for four rather than one and I don't suppose we're popular with other road users. Worst of all is missing a turning in the suburbs of Nuneaton and having three cars follow you into a cul-de-sac. So at my old club I appointed myself Transport Coordinator and made sure everyone had a map - and someone in the passenger seat who could read one.
At least now satnavs make people think they can find the place without following someone else.
Motorcyclists. Pet peeve time. You're as welcome as anyone else to trundle your Kawazuki Midlifecrisis 900 along the A40 in Monmouthshire on a sunny April Saturday, and to pass mere car drivers like me who are constrained by speed limits and oncoming vehicles. But for heaven's sake do it one at a time, not with twenty of your paunchy mates creating the effect of being buzzed by a cloud of overweight wasps.
You may be delighting in being a rebellious nonconformist just like all your friends, but you really do all look the same to the rest of us and that effectively means we have no idea where any one of you is. It's dangerous, discourteous and - at your age - really rather silly. Please stop it.
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I agree with you despite having a preference for motorcycling. This crowds of born-agains are a right pain and really dangerous. (I've owned and ridden fast bikes regularly for nearly thirty years and am definitely not born again !) - the things I've seen make my hair curl at times. I read a marvelous article on stereotyping in this month's Ride Magazine - bikers do it as well. I'll expand on it in another thread later.
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i would go further and say these born agains are a danger to themselves but even more of a danger to other road users,i dont go out to get killed by inconsiderate people who have no idea how to use a loaded weapon,
they are selfish to the point i dont enjoy a sunday afternoon drive anymore, as they have taken over my favourite and until 5 years ago unknown (to these idiots)roads
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They scare me as well and scared me enough to almost stop me riding at weekends - especially in Snowdonia where many of them come to lay down their lives. I've got over that now but I would advocate anyone who is a bike rider to take Bikesafe course, I reckon that even the best riders (in their own opinion of course) can learn something that may save their own or another's life.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Tue 26 Apr 11 at 20:40
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>> They scare me as well and scared me enough to almost stop me riding at
>> weekends - especially in Snowdonia where many of them come to lay down their lives.
There are swarms of them ride to box hill every weekend. The ambulance crews know where most of them shed skin on the road, and park in waiting accordingly. Never short of customers.
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This morning I was crawling off the Marylebone flyover on to Marylebone Road, traffic on both sides of me of course. A scooter dashed between me and the car to my right, and whilst he was doing this some bonehead on a more powerful motorbike of some sort dashed between HIM and the car on my right, cutting in front of the scooter just in front of me, almost causing the scooter rider to fall off in front of my car.
If only I could have caught him.
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>>> This morning I was crawling off the Marylebone flyover on to Marylebone Road, traffic on both sides
Stop it Alanovic. You're making me homesick.
By the way, at congested times you are better off running below and parallel on the Harrow Road. At the beginning of Marylebone Rd you are better off on the nearside anyway. Once engaged, it's best to get back out to lane 3 - all serious right turns have some form of slip road - until you are through the TCR underpass. If that's stuffed it's better to jockey back onto the n/s for that too. And from Euston to King's Cross the n/s or middle lane is the one.
Gotta be quick on your toes though and have eyes all round your head. Bus lanes are a big hazard but crucially, just past Euston the n/s looks like a bus lane, but isn't.
You probably know all that but just in case you don't...
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Handy hints, AC. I seldom use the route - as a Berkcestershestershire resident I'm more au fait with the Cromwell Road. I'm quite used to London traffic, pretty quick on my toes, even in the old Volvo 360 as I was this morning (good to give it a proper run now and again).
I was heading to Camden Town this morning, the traffic on the M4, M25, M40 and A40 was spookily light, no hold ups anywhere. 30 limit on the Westway is a joke, no? Did they forget to remove the signs on April 2nd?
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 27 Apr 11 at 14:16
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>> It was implied.
The post is a bit disjointed maybe...but... I used the Welsh reservoir crash as a starter, then went on to discuss in general terms the positive Scottish road signs, then decried the poor English driving. Couldn't speak for Welsh driving as I rarely go there, but in any case wasn't intending to specifically discuss the reservoir case. Was mildy aware at some point that it was in Wales but can't remember if I did when I posted, but in reality that bit didn't matter.
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I don't know why there is the emphasis on the so-called "born again" segment. The stats show that it is the younger element who are the majority of KSI. My own observations, of local (Ribble Valley) and more distant (Cat and Fiddle road from Macclesfield, and Manchester Rd into Buxton), for what they are worth, is that slender lunatics are in the ascendancy, by far. Visual recognition is almost impossible due to obscuring visors, so rotundity is my yardstick:)
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Tue 26 Apr 11 at 21:18
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without sounding offensive nortones i hope you dont use those same blinkers when you shop in buxton and have to cross a road
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I can't really take offence, as I know not what you mean. Care to explain?
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go to any bike cafe
watch sky3 on the tv now
look in the bbc news site today
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Is it the stats? Or my impressions you question? I'm not too good at riddles. Are you the Oracle of Delphi?
I don't mind you saying your impressions are different to mine, but if you consider I'm blinkered at least have the courtesy to explain. As to the stats, they are pretty conclusive.
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I think Bellboy's point is older bikers race through Buxton....might be a glitch in the office Enigma machine though...!
I tend to agree with Norton - when I stop off at Betws y Coed (think sticky fly-paper for bikes on a Sunday) a lot of relative youngsters on mega-bikes older gents tend to ride less racious machines don't stop them being a menace though.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13364879
A pretty poignant picture painted in words by the driver of the car.
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I've just come on to post a similar link:
tinyurl.com/5vujfk2
Seems that quite a lot of people jumped to the wrong conclusion at the time.
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...Seems that quite a lot of people jumped to the wrong conclusion at the time...
What wrong conclusion is that?
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I though we agreed there was not sufficient information to reach a conclusion?
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>> ...Seems that quite a lot of people jumped to the wrong conclusion at the time...>>
>> What wrong conclusion is that?>>
For the reasons that Zero wrote very early on in the thread: "No-one yet knows the cause of this accident. The rest is just mere speculation."
It was something certainly not confined to this particular website.
Last edited by: Stuartli on Thu 12 May 11 at 12:39
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In the original link I posted, there's long distance photo of a silver Mondeo estate with severe frontal damage, inc to a degree the offside part of the front of the car, difficult to se eif all of the front is the same (i.e. damage to the front not the offside). The written report says both cars were going in the same direction and the Peugeot occs were looking at the view. Several reports state the Peugeot was going to go in to a layby.
There's only so much that could have happened.
1, Mondeo caught it up quicker than he expected and hit it prior to or during an overtake at a time the Peugeot was considering turning in to a layby
2, Peugeot went to turn in to a layby at a time the Mondeo was overtaking
...are the two most obvious ones so far.
It's all speculation to a degree..but this is a motoring website for people to discuss things motoring...what's the problem with that?
The road in the picture looks like a good overtaking spot. If the lady that survived ended up turning when someone else was overtaking, she'll have that on her shoulders as well. Isn't life unpleasant at times. I can't even state I hope it wasn't her fault, because then that's lumbering the mechanic.
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>> There's only so much that could have happened.
>>
>> 1, Mondeo caught it up quicker than he expected and hit it prior to or
>> during an overtake at a time the Peugeot was considering turning in to a layby
>>
>> 2, Peugeot went to turn in to a layby at a time the Mondeo was
>> overtaking
>>
>> ...are the two most obvious ones so far.
>>
>> It's all speculation to a degree..but this is a motoring website for people to discuss
>> things motoring...what's the problem with that?
>>
>> The road in the picture looks like a good overtaking spot. If the lady that
>> survived ended up turning when someone else was overtaking, she'll have that on her shoulders
>> as well. Isn't life unpleasant at times. I can't even state I hope it wasn't
>> her fault, because then that's lumbering the mechanic.
>>
.... I speculate the event happened just slightly differently.
Using streetview link tinyurl.com/3us2lwm posted earlier in this thread and Stuartli's link tinyurl.com/5vujfk2 where it says
"'On the way home my mother and Emyr were discussing the lovely view. We were pulling into the lay-by when we felt a shunt from the back,' she reveals today in an open letter published in local paper The Rhondda Leader.
'We felt a shunt from the back. The car turned over and rolled and unfortunately there was nowhere other than the reservoir for it to end up.'"
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/21/article-1378963-0BB81D2C00000578-495_634x366.jpg
I speculate that while driving South, the Peugeot suddenly slowed down and moved right to park in the unofficial "layby". Mondeo driver came up behind, not anticipating the Peugeot slowing suddenly and moving to the right. He tried to avoid/pass the slowing Peugeot on the left but clipped his front right on the rear* of the Peugeot which was already turning/pointing towards the reservoir.
* like a PIT manouever
Last edited by: Suppose on Fri 13 May 11 at 17:46
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Looks to me (for what it's worth) as if the people carrier headed for an (informal, perhaps unsigned) layby on the other side of the road and either didn't see, or miscalculated the speed of, the Mondeo coming up behind. In one of the links there's a photo back up the road there, and it's a stretch of road where someone in the mood might be doing a fairly indecent lick.
Mondeo perhaps going pretty damn quickly is pulling out to overtake when the people carrier starts to cross in front of it. Tries to go back and pass on the left but the closing speed is too great and he doesn't make it. The front o/s damage to the Mondeo sort of suggests that. Something along those lines anyway. The unfortunate lady's statement makes no mention of being aware of the other vehicle before impact.
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Two minds with but a single thought, Suppose...
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Reservoir car crash - CGNorwich
