I just read this on another forum:
"I understand the latest BMWs have no dipstick, just a light that comes on when the oil's low. And guess what, no oil filler cap on the engine - you have to take it to a dealer for a top up! madness....."
Surely it can't be true.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 26 Jul 11 at 10:22
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Yes it can. Mercs have no dispstick either - you rely on an electronic guage, but can at least top it up yourself. Not good!
But is it ever criticized in the motoring press? Of course not, they would rather take the money for all the glossy ads to keep them alive.
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I believe some Mercs are dipstick free.
Not sure if there's an oil filler cap.
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Nope, its not April 1st is it?
Something else I would stay very clear of.
Yes, I can be a Luddite at times.
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Who checks the oil? Very few of the motoring public. Now it's in their faces, net benefit in my book!
As for topping up, I've never seen a BMW without a normal oil filler.
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>> I believe some Mercs are dipstick free.
>>
I've seen plenty driven by dipsticks ;0)
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>>just a light that comes on when the oil's low
>>
The only car I have driven with such a system was a hire car Renault and it was a PITA.
I had to park on a slope. Every start up the warning light and a message lit up and of course stayed on until I stopped, switched off, let the oil sink down and then restart.
With the common "its just another white goods item" attitude there appears to be a polorisation of those that have an interest in the oily bits and those that throw it away when it stops.
IMO KISS for the vast majority of users..
I think the washer bottle should be moved to the rear wing with a the filler inside the boot to reduce the risk of "miss fueling" and then things "should" be much simpler. Just two things that need topping up and do not lift the bonnet.
All other fluids with low levels have warning lights / indicators/ voices alarms.
IMO tyre pressure monitors should be mandatory on cars.
I still like the Citroen SM idea of a very big red light saying STOP when critical things fail.
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How far away is the sealed-for-life car with no provision for checking, topping up or adjusting anything?
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"How far away is the sealed-for-life car with no provision for checking, topping up or adjusting anything?"
Not too far I hope
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Latest BMW's? Our 120i is 5 years old and has no dip stick. No problem, we are used to it, our Clio is 13 years old and has a very good electronic oil level gauge that tells you the oil level every time you turn the ignition on, better that the BMW system perhaps in that respect.
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>
>> we are used to it, our Clio is 13 years old and has a very
>> good electronic oil level gauge that tells you the oil level every time you turn
>> the ignition on, better that the BMW system perhaps in that respect.
Indeed, it was a superbly simple system that worked very well. I used the dipstick once in 50k miles on my Renault.
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>> >
I used the dipstick once in 50k miles on my Renault.
>>
The trouble is that most drivers without an electronic gauge do the same.
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>> "How far away is the sealed-for-life car with no provision for checking, topping up or
>> adjusting anything?"
>>
>> Not too far I hope
>>
Interesting reaction.
You buy a sealed box for £10,000. There is no servicing, nothing is replaceable, no repairs of any kind are possible. After 5 years or 100,000 miles you throw it away.
There are no garages. No bodywork repairs. No tyre dealers. No spare parts. It either works or a red light comes on, the car stops, and that is the end of its life. Like with a toaster, no one will want to know if you try to get it repaired.
The entire car will then be fed into a giant crushing/shredding machine, and all metals, fluids, plastics will be extracted automatically. The plant can process 5 million cars a year, and will be situated in your back yard. :)
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The original statement said nothing about not being repairable it just said no provision for checking, topping up or adjusting anything, presumably by the driver. Pretty near to that goal now with only the oil and tyres needing checking. If they could eliminate that it would be step forward.
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>> The original statement said nothing about not being repairable it just said
>>
I know. That's why I extrapolated the trend and asked whether cars were likely to go down the throw-away route like other consumer goods.
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"I know. That's why I extrapolated the trend and asked whether cars were likely to go down the throw-away route like other consumer goods.
Aren't they already? Most people don't buy cars to keep indefinitely. In fact most people keep their much maligned white goods far longer than they do cars. I would like to be able to buy a car that was as little trouble as my cooker or fridge
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ISTR there was a small Audi with the very small flap at the front of the bonnet for oil, screen wash and brake fluid topping up but one couldn't get at the engine to access spark plugs etc
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PP you're thinking of the A2. The bonnet was only meant to be opened by the dealer.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A2
Nice cars but expensive.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 20 Apr 11 at 12:36
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>> PP you're thinking of the A2. The bonnet was only meant to be opened by
>> the dealer.
>>
>> Nice cars but expensive.
>>
And the Porsche Boxster.
Nicer cars and but more expensive!
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Since 1992 I've have four VW petrol-engine used cars (the first had already done 66.5k miles). None of them have ever required the oil to be topped up nor, indeed, used any oil in between the normal oil and filter changes. My light grey paved front drive area is completely free of oil stains.
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>>Since 1992 I've have four VW petrol-engine used cars
>> None of them have ever required the oil to be topped up nor, indeed,
>> used any oil in between the normal oil and filter changes.
I haven't needed to top up the oil in my cars since I bought my first 16 valve in 1991. I'm a low mileage driver, though.
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I read somewhere that BMW is working on a car where engine will be sealed for life!
More like Apple products - you can't even replace battery yourself, no file system access etc.
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My 120d has an electronic dipstick, but if you root around in the engine bay you can find the old-fashioned kind, which I believe has been dispatched with on the very newest models.
Glad I checked it - the eDipstick shows the level on max, the actual one shows it some way above. Have taken photos of both, would expect BMW to cover any engine problems even out of the warranty period if high oil level suspected as a cause.
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How reassuring Alfa Floor.
It would worry me to have to rely on a silly Heath Robinson electric oil level indicator. I would expect it to be inaccurate, as yours is, and I would expect it to go on the blink at the most dangerous and damaging moment.
Of course I have owned and driven cars with such devices. But they have no purpose except to keep the white fingers of wimps and idiots oil-free while misleading them, quite often, on the oil reserve in their jalopies. Damn rubbish. Over-engineering for the sake of it.
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>> I believe some Mercs are dipstick free
>> Not sure if there's an oil filler cap
Dad's C270CDI has no dipstick, just a dashboard readout.
Boss's ML270CDI (same engine) does have a dipstick.
Both have a conventional oil filler cap.
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C5 hs a dipstick, and performs an electronic check at each start up. Used no oil upto the first service so I havent bothered checking since assuming the electronic check will let me know if I need to.
I am sure some will be shuddering at this thought!
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>> My 120d>>
What variant is it? M-Sport or SE, I am thinking of buying one or a 123d, around three years old, any thoughts?
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...More like Apple products - you can't even replace battery yourself...
Apple sell replacement batteries for my MacBook Pro.
Changing instructions are on their website.
"You'll need a screwdriver to take the back off," is about what it amounts to.
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Mine is all manual and has the all important temperature gauge, something some city cars lack.
Also has a coil pack which is easy to get to which has some very old fashioned things called HT leads coming out of it.
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>> More like Apple products - you can't even replace battery yourself
Plenty of DIY vids showing you how2
eg, www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuaHt_jRSo8
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>> And guess what, no oil filler cap on the engine - you have to take it to a dealer for a top up!
Ahhh i think i've twigged, DE - possibly wires crossed somewhere, did you mean no sump plug? Reading Dave's post RE: his old man's merc, it came back to me. That merc wont have a sump plug.
No sump plug, no dipstick tube to put a sooky straw into... how do you extract the oil? :-) (via the filter port i believe?)
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For the majority of car users an electric oil level check is probably for the best.
a, they won't check anything under the bonnet anyway, and
b, if they ever looked at the oil anything wrong wouldn't register.
I believe driver's who care for their cars will always want to see the oil for themselves.
Trucks have been going electronic dipsticks for some years now too, proper drivers bemoan the fact, new drivers that wouldn't bother otherwise think it's good.
Brilliant design on the new Iveco Stralis;), have to tilt the cab to put oil in, therefore nearly every one is on or below min before i use them, once you've got the cab up, low and behold there is a proper dipstick.
I would like a gearbox dipstick, my lads Imprezza has one (mind you he has a new box every couple of years so doesn't need it), i wonder if newer Scoobies still have them.
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Am I the only one who gets some kind of reassurance by checking the engine oil level, and all other fluid levels (brake fluid, coolant, washer) wiper blades, tyres and tyre pressures, once a week.
Not only on my car, but SWMBO sometimes twice a week as she drives 35k + a year, and future step daughters x 3 when their cars are 'at home'.
Doesn't take me long and I feel better knowing that all is as it should be...I hope.
And I check all my/their lights are working on a regular basis.
Takes me 30 mins but better than watching carp on the goggle box.
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I don't do it every week but I do it every couple of weeks.
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>> Am I the only one who gets some kind of reassurance by checking the engine
>> oil level, and all other fluid levels (brake fluid, coolant, washer) wiper blades, tyres and
>> tyre pressures, once a week.
Nope, its not only you.
One thing I have noticed - in the last few years there are more cars in the workshop with bald and damaged tyres.
I beleive this to be because people no longer look at them weekly/monthly.
the dashboard tells them the tyres are fine, and ABS and traction control mask some of the handling and traction deficiencies.
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Everything is low profile - much more prone to wearing rapidly with minor steering/suspension issues - generally heavier and more powerful cars maybe accelerate this too.
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>> Everything is low profile - much more prone to wearing rapidly with minor steering/suspension issues
>> - generally heavier and more powerful cars maybe accelerate this too.
>>
Plus the fact that most cars ride lower than they used to (seems to me anyway), making it trickier to even see much of the tread.
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>>Plus the fact that most cars ride lower than they used to (seems to me anyway), making it trickier to even see much of the tread.>>
..or see the inside tyre walls.
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>> Not only on my car, but SWMBO sometimes twice a week as she drives 35k
>> + a year, and future step daughters x 3 when their cars are 'at home'.
Absolutely, it's part of being a proper man, caring for all the lovely ladies in your life, what else are we here for.
Anyway, left to those lovely ladies the bonnet cable could seize solid and they'd never know..;)
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>> Ahhh i think i've twigged, DE - possibly wires crossed somewhere, did you mean no
>> sump plug? Reading Dave's post RE: his old man's merc, it came back to me.
>> That merc wont have a sump plug.
>>
>> No sump plug, no dipstick tube to put a sooky straw into... how do you
>> extract the oil? :-) (via the filter port i believe?)
>>
Mercs DO have sump plugs, but many dealers suck the oil out.
There IS a 'dipstick' tube, but it is blanked off with a plug.
The original Smart cars do not have a drain plug, they have to have the oil sucked out, or tip the car upside down........ ;-)
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I seem to recall a top Honda engineer saying they could make a petrol engine that wouldn't need touched for 100,000 miles, but research suggested there was too much skepticism for it to be a sale-winner.
The engine would have a sump of approximately 20 litres but would otherwise be largely 'normal'.
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>> I seem to recall a top Honda engineer saying they could make a petrol engine
>> that wouldn't need touched for 100,000 miles,
When Cadillac launched the STS in the 90's wasn't the service interval 100K ?
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>>When Cadillac launched the STS in the 90's wasn't the service interval 100K ?>>
I recall the Ford Taurus had a lengthy interval between services in the 1990s with platinum spark plugs, for instance, needing changing only every 60,000 miles.
news.drive.com.au/drive/used-car-reviews/ford-taurus-19961998-20100824-13o9c.html
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The still seem to like 6k or even less for oil changes in the US.
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>> They still seem to like 6k or even less for oil changes in the US.
I sometimes look at ebay USA cars, they all seem to have 200,000, 300,000 even 400,000 miles up and still going strong. That's a LOT of oil changes.
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>> When Cadillac launched the STS in the 90's wasn't the service interval 100K ?
>>
IIRC Cadillac were a little economical on that one - the detail was "full" service at 100K - still needed oil changes inbetween. Was the engine called a weststar or something similar?
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>> Was the engine called a weststar or something similar?
Close en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar_engine_series
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi {P} on Wed 20 Apr 11 at 22:53
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'One notable feature, advertised at the time, was the "limp home" fail-safe mode which allowed the engine to continue running for a limited time without any coolant. Supplying fuel to only one cylinder bank in turn, the engine would "air cool" the inactive bank. This technique, combined with its all-aluminum construction and large oil capacity, allows the engine to maintain safe temperatures, allowing a Northstar-equipped car to be driven with no coolant for about 100 mi (161 km) without damage.'
Funky.
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My 1983 Sierra had an electronic oil level display but the sensor was also the dipstick!
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Most yank cars don't go particularly fast in normal use so the oil doesn't get hot like in the EU.Also there are a large number of roadside oil/filter change places where they will change them in minutes-I've known colleages of mine have an oil change on the way to work.
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>> Mercs DO have sump plugs, but many dealers suck the oil out.
>> The original Smart cars do not have a drain plug, they have to have the
>> oil sucked out, or tip the car upside down........ ;-)
>>
I'm not sure I like the idea of sucking engine oil out - would all the dregs come out too? Get it nice and warm and let gravity do it, I say.
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>> I'm not sure I like the idea of sucking engine oil out - would all
>> the dregs come out too? Get it nice and warm and let gravity do it,
>> I say.
>>
Some Americans (who take this sort of thing *very* seriously) did some tests and the same amount of oil came out either way.
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I got the quoted capacity out using my Pela 'home' sucker.
A proper workshop tool would probably suck out a little more.
Anyway, what dregs?
That's why you have a filter.
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>>I'm not sure I like the idea of sucking engine oil out
I think that's quite a coomon reaction. While there are some engines where you can't extract the oil using vacuum, in most cases, it works perfectly well.
>>would all the dregs come out too?
On engines which are designed for vacuum extraction, you typically get *more* out using the vacuum pump than you do via the sump plug. As mentioned above, if there are any significant solid "dregs", you have much bigger problems than deciding how best to do an oil change!
The hidden advantage to using a vacuum pump is that the oil is much more likely to be changed on time. Especially if the oil filter is accessible from above, you don't need to go underneath, and you probably don't even need overalls to do the job. There's also no danger of any problem with the sump plug or the threads in the sump.
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I'd love to use a 'sucker' on my cars, but the dipstick tubes are such a small diameter I haven't bothered yet.
I still need to get under for the filters.
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When i first got the Golf, i serviced it. Undid the sump plug and nearly wet myself when i saw how much swarf was dropped into the drain tray.
Is the engine eating itself? That much swarf has to be terminal, that amounts to a notch out a piston or something. Dropped the sump, took off the oil pickup and cleaned it out - just as well, there was some swarf in the mesh on the pickup face.
Seemed to run ok but paid special attention when i next changed the oil... no swarf. Up to temperature just like before, left to drain while i got on with other stuff, but still no swarf.
Can only guess that it's been serviced with a vacuum pump until now.
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>> Can only guess that it's been serviced with a vacuum pump until now.
>>
Careful Sk, you'll be branded a luddite too..;)
This oil change lark does make for amusing reading, minutes to jack the front end up, secure it and undo the blessed sump bung, no wonder some want to leave it 20K miles..it sound like a major operation.
If it's an awkward devil, buy a Fumoto oil drain vale, henceforth all oil changes can be done in your Sunday best....sheesh.
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...I'd love to use a 'sucker' on my cars, but the dipstick tubes are such a small diameter I haven't bothered yet...
The tube on the Pela suckers is very narrow, so I would be very surprised if it wouldn't fit.
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I acquired a Silverline model. Both the supplied pipes are far too large.
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...I acquired a Silverline model. Both the supplied pipes are far too large...
Not sure what a Silverline is, some of the pumps are for boats which are sucker only and have larger tubes.
The tube on my Pela would be narrow enough, unless your car has a very unusual dipstick.
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You haven't done a proper oil change unless you've scalded your hand as it came out, dropped the sump plug into the bowl, left a couple of large stains on the drive and got a roasting from the other half for leaving oily hand prints on all the door handles from the front of the house to the bathroom sink.
You boys, make me laugh you do...
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>>You boys, make me laugh you do...>>
Brought back memories there from a few decades ago...:-)
Mind you I did once try to emulate washing emulsion paint out of paint brushes in the "composite" type kitchen sink, but forgot I'd been using Solo gloss..... The filmy cream stains are still there despite Herculean attempts to get rid of them.
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>> dropped the sump plug into the bowl
You say it like there's another way ;-)
The Haynes manuals crack me up for oil changes, they spell out the "it'll run up your sleeve", it strikes me that theyre being too helpful, you're supposed to learn that one the hard way.
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Still got my bottle of distilled water for topping up batteries.
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>> Still got my bottle of distilled water for topping up batteries.
>>
One thing i miss about the Hilux, first vehicle for years with a proper battery able to be checked for levels.
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New car - no dip-stick? - Boxsterboy
