A police officer who drove at 93mph in a 30mph limit before crashing his patrol car into the street furniture has been cleared of dangerous driving.
PC Andrew Barry had a teenage runaway in the back of the car at the time, and drove so fast because she 'kicked off'.
Most drivers when confronted with an unruly passenger would be inclined to slow down, or even stop, rather than speed up.
Most people would regard driving at 93mph in a built-up area as 'driving far below the standards of a careful and competent driver'.
Not to mention the risk to his passenger and other road users.
The jury must have grasped this, so I wonder if they acquitted on the basis there was no harm done, and a feeling their area needs more policemen, not fewer.
It's certainly one in the eye for all the coppers who moan they get a bad trot in court - you or I would have been convicted for sure.
tinyurl.com/6jxwssy links to liverpoolecho.co.uk
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 15 Apr 11 at 12:29
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Your link is not working, Iffy.
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Thanks.
This one should work:
tinyurl.com/6jxwssy
Now corrected the other one.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 15 Apr 11 at 12:30
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There are a lot of negative comments on the newspaper article. However...
From what I gather after reading blogs by police officers and social services workers (Inspector Gadget, 200weeks, Winston Smith), the reality of police work is rather different to the general (law-abiding) public's perception of it. We don't know from the article whether the child in question was a meek, timid little girl or a feral, spitting swearing thug hell-bent on causing harm to the officer and damn the consequences. I can guess which description's closer.
I had people unrecoverably "kick off" in the back of my minicab three times, the remedy for me was to anchor up hard, bail out and leave them to it until the police arrived. What you do when you ARE the police, though...
I say the jury got it right.
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He got 8 points on his license and a £500 fine - what sort of offence does that usually equate to?
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He believes he was fully in control at >90 in an urban area.) Therefore it wasn't dangerous:) His logic seems to be dodgy. Possibly like the jury.
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I've not read the whole article (moving house), but I'm a tad uneasy with doing 93 in a 30 limit,
I would call that reckless driving.
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Surely his best option would have been to stop the car and call for assistance.
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>>I've not read the whole article (moving house)
Thread drift.
Best of luck, Dog. I hope it all goes well.
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>>
Thread drift.
Best of luck, Dog. I hope it all goes well<<
Thanks C/S - we're not actually moving until next Thursday, but I'm getting rid of a load of 'stuff' + the old washing machine (which weighs a ton!)
Also got an (almost) double garage to clear out :(
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>> He believes he was fully in control at >90 in an urban area.) Therefore it
>> wasn't dangerous:) His logic seems to be dodgy. Possibly like the jury.
>>
Speaking of logic....does that mean you think that on every occasion anyone does 90+ in an urban area then it is automatically dangerous?
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Well maybe in an urban area like the dreamy car ads.... No pedestrians, no cyclists, no other cars, no HGV's, no intersections, no lights, in fact sterile. Yes, I'd say 90 is automatically dangerous in the real world. Assessing the danger against the reason for speeding might enable a different outcome, but the reasoning seems thin. But then the investiagtion of traffic accidents is still heavily influenced by outcomes rather than latent risk.
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>> Yes, I'd say 90 is automatically dangerous in the real world.
Then how come police officers, paramedics etc can legitimately do this then?..in a world of increased H&S concerns. How come it hasn't already been banned?
Do you speak with any knowledge?
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They get away with it until they have an accident. Then all is open to question. As I hinted, there is a degree of lattitude, but that doesn't make 90 less dangerous. It might be justified. It might not. It could be in the course of duty, or a frolic of his own. But only when the outcome is an incident, is the onion unpeeled.
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...He got 8 points on his license and a £500 fine - what sort of offence does that usually equate to?...
It's a stiff penalty for careless driving - which he admitted.
...I say the jury got it right...
The jury is told to try the case 'on the evidence'.
If they did that, surely they would have convicted?
More than 90mph, with an unruly passenger, and a crash.
Sounds dangerous to me.
I tend to think things such as the copper losing his job entered the jury's thinking, which they should not have done.
It certainly illustrates the power of a jury - they can acquit and no one bats an eyelid.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 15 Apr 11 at 11:24
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Possibly a perverse verdict; impossible to tell unless you heard all the evidence. But that's what juries are there for, just ocassionally, to say 'yes but'. The most outstanding case in my lifetime was Clive Ponting. Lady Chatterley in the generation before.
Note that it was tried before a High Ct Judge. Wouldn't this sort of thing normally be Circuit Judge territory?
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...Wouldn't this sort of thing normally be Circuit Judge territory?...
It would.
Each circuit has a presiding High Court or 'red' judge - so called because of the colour of their robes.
The red judge will sit for short periods at the various crown courts on his circuit.
It follows that the court staff will give him something interesting to do, if they have it.
Often it will be a serious case - rape or murder - but a copper up for dangerous driving also passes the 'interesting' test.
There was once a red judge at Durham who insisted on doing a fortnight of run-of-the-mill work.
What he says, goes, so that is what he was given to do.
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>> Often it will be a serious case - rape or murder - but a copper
>> up for dangerous driving also passes the 'interesting' test.
I was thinking of the different 'classes' of offence but wondered if my knowledge was getting out of date. Seems that Murder is still generally red judge territory:-
www.judiciary.gov.uk/you-and-the-judiciary/going-to-court/crown-court
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... Seems that Murder is still generally red judge territory:-...
It is, but there are grades of circuit judges, called informally 'tickets'.
So a judge with a few years in may have his 'murderers ticket'.
There used to be a 'rapists ticket', but I think any circuit judge can try a rape now.
This is also where court listings officers earn their corn - putting the right case in front of the right judge.
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>> He got 8 points on his license and a £500 fine - what sort of
>> offence does that usually equate to?
I got 9 points and 400 quid for driving without due care and attention,
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/Zero I assume you must have caused an accident to such a harsh punishment? e.g they didn't give you 9 points for being on the wrong lane on a roundabout I assume.
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The bus rattle, the bus.
It was however, a genuine lack of concentration, not a 90mph road rage like the copper.
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If he wasn't on an emergency call (i.e with lights/sirenon) etc then surely theres no justification at all for that sort of speed?
A young girl was killed in the north east by a speeding plod doing the same sort of thing. (i.e 90+ in a 30 with no lights on)
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Surely part of a policeman's training is to balance the risks of one action against another?
To intervene and provoke a riot, or to stand back and condone lawbreaking?
So in this case, he would have had to weigh up the dangers of having a tiger loose in the car versus the risk of mowing down a score of pedestrians by losing control at 90mph.
Personally I'd have stopped, got out and locked the doors. They do have child locks on police cars, I presume?
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I agree Cliff.
He may be have been a good driver but no matter how experienced you are, you can never pre-empt the actions of individuals around you - other drivers, pedestrians, animals etc.
Plus, he surely had a duty of care regards himself and his passenger no matter how nasty she was.
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Secret masonic handsake - anyone?
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>> Secret masonic handsake - anyone?
Assume this post is ironic. It would need a handshake x12 as a jury acquited on the more serious charge. The fine/ponts on the admitted lesser offence are square with the guidelines.
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>>square with the guidelines.
Would that be as in set-square and compasses?
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>> Personally I'd have stopped, got out and locked the doors. They do have child locks
>> on police cars, I presume?
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There's a number of things to weigh up.
How far is your back up, how close is the police station, how badly behaved is the prisoner, what sort of area are you in, if she trashes that vehicle are there any more left, will there be allegations if a male officer manhandles a female prisoner etc, etc.
Women can be a nightmare to deal with when they kick off. Most men don't like to clout them and to restrain them you can come in to contact with dangly bits. The other thing is, contrary to what you see on the t.v. restraining people of either sex is harder than you might think..even if they're in handcuffs.
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Seems harsh, my had one once, went through a major junction on red, it was a sunny day all the road markings were worn and in a very bad state. It was an unfamiliar junction but he still wrote off two cars and put somebody in hospital with minor injuries.
The cops looked at my dads evidence of the poor junction and agreed that the junction was dangerous and my dad didn't get any points or anything for the offence despite admitting it was his fault.
Still amazed he got away with that.
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not a 90mph road rage like the copper.
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Where did road rage appear in this article?
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Are you ever going to be able to drive safely at 90mph with a teenage girl kicking off in the back? I would suggest its impossible.
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>> Are you ever going to be able to drive safely at 90mph with a teenage
>> girl kicking off in the back? I would suggest its impossible.
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Clearly not in this case...and maybe not ever..however sweeping statements from the armchair critics safe in their own houses and from a knowledge base of nothing... does rile.
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>> Are you ever going to be able to drive safely at 90mph with a teenage
>> girl kicking off in the back?
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A teenage girl kicking off in the back. Ah, the memories ;-)
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Surely it would have been safer to empty his CS spray into the feral hellcats face and lock the thing in the boot?
:)
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A merciful jury? - Clk Sec
