Motoring Discussion > Parking Charge Notice? Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Duncan Replies: 63

 Parking Charge Notice? - Duncan
I have recently received a document headed 'Parking Charge Notice' from a company called ParkingEye car park management. This asks me to pay £40 within ten days or £70 if not paid promptly.

The alleged offence is overstaying time in a private car park.

What should I do?

1. Pay
2. Argue
3. Ignore

Advice gratefully received.
 Parking Charge Notice? - RattleandSmoke
Send it to Ted, he uses them to fuel is boiler :).
 Parking Charge Notice? - Old Navy
3.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted
3 3 3 3 Use it to wipe your nipsy !

Have a read about it on Pepipoo.com

Ted
Last edited by: Ted on Thu 31 Mar 11 at 18:31
 Parking Charge Notice? - nyx2k
3
 Parking Charge Notice? - Mark
Currently a good thread on Pepipoo about Parking Eye

Although general wisdom about Private Parking Companies is to ignore them; do not contact them at all.

Maybe worth a post over there

tinyurl.com/5uuz8wy

It seems more and more PPCs are becoming desperate as more and more punters ignore their invoices which are purely based in contract law, that is not real law which is of course Police or Mags Courts law.

If you look on Pepipoo there is a company called OPC which was spanked at court this week to the tune of £30k for issuing the same sort of "toilet paper" invoices as they have sent you.

So have a read over there and relax

As always

Mark
Last edited by: Mark on Thu 31 Mar 11 at 18:39
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
Ignore.

Lots of threads on this on moneysavingexpert.com:

forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=163

Also some dodgy bloke called Iffy posted this on here:

www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3519&v=f

You will get a series of letters threatening dire consequences and then the company will give up.

Making any contact is the worst thing you can do, because the company see that as a 'bite' and will hassle you all the more.

Last edited by: Iffy on Thu 31 Mar 11 at 19:01
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
IF you decide to write to them (you see that the advice is no contact at all) don't sign your letter as it has been known for signatures to be scanned and then added to letters made to look as they are from you, allegedly!
 Parking Charge Notice? - Duncan
>> >> Also some dodgy bloke called Iffy posted this on here:
>>
>> www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3519&v=f
>>


I had forgotten about that thread. Have you heard any more?

How was prison life?

Is Big Ron as friendly as they say?
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
... Have you heard any more?...

Nothing since November.

I think they sent either three or four letters.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
Hasnt seen his car since December tho...
 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

Big Ron's been getting into politics recently.

Sorry....that should read politicians !

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Skoda
>> Hasnt seen his car since December tho...

Parked at the top of Richmond market square yesterday?

Only cc3 ive seen down here and ive had one eye open for one.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...Parked at the top of Richmond market square yesterday?...

Nope, but I'm not far away if you want to pop round for a coffee.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Skoda
Thanks, any choc biscuits left ? :-)

M's packing up and im skiving just now, err i mean looking up driving directions. Id come here again, force 9 gale for putting up the tent on friday then torrential rain and thunderstorm last night, this would qualify as the best summer on record if it were scotland :-)
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
Traditional weather in Yorkshire - April showers in April.

Where exactly did you stay?

I'm between Leyburn and Bedale, so you could swing by on your way out to the A1.



Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 10:09
 Parking Charge Notice? - Skoda
>> Where exactly did you stay?

Just outside Richmond, can't remember the name now, Swale view? Right on the river bank and it was pretty full when we arrived, that sustained rain had me wondering if it'd burst its banks but it seemed unchanged.

We picked based on weather forecast too...

Ho hum, was a good change of scenery and the afternoons were dry and pleasantly warm, if windy. Excellent roads and easy navigation, which was a bonus since the tom-tom was dead when I tired to turn it on for the way down :-(

Need to visit Wales soon now too for a yomp about.

Edit: we live just off the m74 so m6 / a66 was easier than the a1 / east coast route for us.
Last edited by: Skoda on Sun 3 Apr 11 at 12:35
 Parking Charge Notice? - L'escargot
>> The alleged offence is overstaying time in a private car park.

Alleged? Did you overstay the allowed time or didn't you?
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
This seems to be a moral question. Whether he did or did not overstay, the notice issued is unenforceable, in law, and will go away if ignored.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 10:36
 Parking Charge Notice? - L'escargot
>> This seems to be a moral question.

I prefer to consider factual questions. Moral questions depend on an individual's moral standards.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...Alleged? Did you overstay the allowed time or didn't you?...

A lot of these car parks are 'free for two hours', but do not have any attendants or ticket machines.

If you return to your car after, say, 2hrs 20mins, there's no visible sign you've done anything wrong, so you drive away.

First thing you know is when you get a demand for money in the post a week or two later.


Edit: Perky is spot on, the demand is unenforceable in law - as I've proved, twice now.

Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 10:38
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
Well done ifffy!!!!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 10:41
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...Well done ifffy!!!!...

Thanks.

As I've said many times, I would probably have paid a reasonable sum, say six or eight quid, for the overstay.

But they don't ask for that, they come straight in with demands for £70 or £80.

No way am I going to accept being fined and punished by some scam parking company.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Clk Sec
>>Moral questions depend on an individual's moral standards.

It would be option 3 for you, then?
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
A VERY full but 4 year old statement of the law, as opposed to the moral position, here:-

forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autocom=ibwiki&cmd=article&id=56
 Parking Charge Notice? - Duncan
As iffy said above, if parking is free for two hours, what could/should they reasonably ask for, say, thirty minutes over the two hours?

25% of nothing is nothing. Well if it were a pound an hour, that would be 50 pence. That wouldn't be worth collecting. The chap on the other forum suggests sending £5 or £10 (I think). The accounts that I have heard seem to say that the parking companies send these lesser amounts back.

What is an honest parker who made a genuine mistake to do? Should he/she enter into discussions or negotiations with the parking company?
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...Should he/she enter into discussions or negotiations with the parking company?...

Absolutely not.

Their appeals processes have been shown to be a sham time and time again.

As I said earlier, they will take any contact as a 'bite' and hassle you all the more.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Duncan
>> ...Should he/she enter into discussions or negotiations with the parking company?...
>>
>> Absolutely not.
>>
>>

I was thinking out loud and perhaps I imagined that I lived in a perfect world. Just for the record I have no intention of contacting them.

Just supposing there was a test case and it went to court and all the great legal brains put their heads together and decided on an appropriate penalty (surcharge?) for someone who had overstayed 30 minutes in a 'two hour free' car park. What would they come up with?

I wonder what the man on the Clapham omnibus would say? My guess is around a fiver.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
Well, lets see.

If you overstay at a meter in, say, Lambeth, you get a 60 quid fine. SO is the "penalty" charge by the parking company that far out of line?
 Parking Charge Notice? - swiss tony
>> Well, lets see.
>>
>> If you overstay at a meter in, say, Lambeth, you get a 60 quid fine.
>> SO is the "penalty" charge by the parking company that far out of line?
>>
But, you do (often) have the choice of feeding the meter, thus extending your stay.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
No, usually its an offence to feed the meter.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
It is disproportionate it it is a penalty for over staying a "2 hours free" car park!
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
>> It is disproportionate it it is a penalty for over staying a "2 hours free"
>> car park!

There are plenty of council "free 1 hour parking" zones where it is an offence to stay over the free period and the fine is 60 pounds.

The free part has no bearing on the matter.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
It it went to a court hearing they could not claim that they had suffered any financial loss and I don't think £60 or more would be judged "proportionate". We don't know, or do we, what signage was at OP's parking place.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
>> It it went to a court hearing they could not claim that they had suffered
>> any financial loss and I don't think £60 or more would be judged "proportionate". We
>> don't know, or do we, what signage was at OP's parking place.

And how much would the council loose in revenue if you overstayed a parking meter for 20 minutes? A pound? A 60 pound fine for that is not proportionate either, yet its legally enforceable by a council.

The answer of course is its a deterrent. They don't want you hogging the same parking meter bay all day. As the parking enforcement company don't want you hogging the private parking bay all day.

So if the council can set a deterrent at 60 pounds, its not unreasonable to expect a private parking company to set it at a similar amount, is it.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
No private company has the right to fine or punish the citizen - criminal courts do that.

Therefore, the parking company - acting on behalf of the landlord - can only make a civil claim for its losses.

The loss is next to nothing, particularly if parking is free.

That is one of many reasons why these cases are almost never taken to court.

Another reason is the difficulty of establishing any contract existed in the first place.

If you leave your car somewhere for two hours or three, it is daft to suggest you have automatically made a contract with the owner of the land to park.

This is why you will read of arguments over signs.

But even that is flawed, because the courts are reluctant to find you have formed a contract simply because of a sign on a lamppost which you may or may not have read.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
>> No private company has the right to fine or punish the citizen - criminal courts
>> do that.
In law that is the case.

But on moral grounds, in what way does "pirate parking inc" differ from Lambeth council in acting as arbiters of parking and "over staying excess charges", other than one being a legal penalty?

You cant claim the Lambeth fine is unfair in court, because its more than loss of parking revenue.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...other than one being a legal penalty...

No difference, really.

Lambeth Council has statutory backing, Pirate Parking Inc does not.

The council is regulated, so you know exactly where you stand, it doesn't pluck figures out of the air and fire off invoices and threats willy-nilly.

The council's appeals process - carried out by an independent body in London - is also reasonably fair and genuine.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
>> and fire off invoices and threats willy-nilly.

Think you'll find they do


No I was coming at it from the angle of the penalty sum of money. It does not differ that much from the legal fines. Which I hasten to add, is equally outrageous. Even the clamping, release fees, towing charges, and storage fees are much the same.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 13:40
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...No I was coming at it from the angle of the penalty sum of money. It does not differ that much from the legal fines...

True, although that wasn't always the case.

There were stories years ago of private companies sending out demands for hundreds.

At least the councils work to a published and enforceable framework.

I think the biggest invoice I received from the scam company was £165, but it could have been £16,500 - they can demand whatever they like, which the councils can not.
 Parking Charge Notice? - L'escargot
We still don't know how long Duncan (the o.p.) stayed for, and for how long he overstayed.
 Parking Charge Notice? - SteelSpark
I got one a few months back, for a different firm.

They had a picture of the car going in the car park and one coming out. They even went to the trouble of putting what appeared, at first glance, to be zoomed in images of the number plates under the photos.

On closer inspection it was obvious that they had generated the number plate images, but had tried to make them look like real photos (they were at a slight angle and slightly blurred). If only their attention to detail had stretched far enough to make the rear plate yellow, rather than white! :)

Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 14:00
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...They had a picture of the car going in the car park and one coming out...

In many car parks the information is gathered by ANPR cameras.

Thus the scam company can send out a demand with a pic of your car on it, although most do not because of printing costs.

It's a balancing act from their point of view.

The more official-looking the document, the more likely they are to fool the recipient into paying it.

Buy official-looking documents cost more money to produce.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

Our local car park is run by Excel. It has been free for 40 odd years. They photo you in and if no ticket is bought from the machine with your rag no. on then you gat a PCN later.

This leads to folk who've gone in to drop someone off or just to turn round getting outrageous demands....Over £120. The shysters issue a PCN printed and coloured to look official, which strikes fear into many, particularly older people who strive to keep on the right side of the law. That's how they make their money...immorally !

Since I found out how the system works, I've made it a bit of a campaign locally to try and help folks who get trapped and write to the local rag.

I had no address for one elderly chap but I noted he'd contacted his MP.
I EMailed the MP and got a reply saying he was unaware that these charges were not enforceable ! He knows now !...and the guy didn't pay up.

The papers seem reluctant to publicise anything about this and I do get annoyed when I read about some poor soul paying £80 or more just for dropping Granny at the shops.

I constantly drive through now, I cuts a busy corner off and it used to be a road. There's some thought that it probably is a public right of way afte so many years.
They never contact me, My cars must be on their database of repeat offenders !

I'm not sure these people have ANPR, in my case it took them 8 months to send me their toilet paper. I think they have to pay the DVLA each time. I was hoping to rack up so many hits that their paperwork ran out...but alas , not to be.! I keep a watching eye !

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
Well done Ted. Perhaps you could write a letter for publication in your local paper "Drawing attention to the questionable legality of the operation of The ??? Car Park"?
 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

Done that twice, PP...and to the daily evening paper.

They don't publish...frustrating !

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
People who own the car park maybe advertise in the paper? I went to the Parking firm's website, lots of guff and puff and no mention of the fact that the charges/penalties are not legally enforceable.
 Parking Charge Notice? - L'escargot
>> I have recently received a document headed 'Parking Charge Notice' from a company called ParkingEye
>> car park management.

At least it doesn't look like a fly-by-night company. www.parkingeye.co.uk/index.html
It's used by some major retailers ~ see Testimonials.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 2 Apr 11 at 15:18
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...At least it doesn't look like a fly-by-night company...

It issues scam threat invoices and bullies the vulnerable and gullible into parting with hundreds at a time.

The way the company does its business is despicable.

Profitable, yes, but then so is drug dealing.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

Too ruddy true, Iffers !

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Armel Coussine
>> despicable.

>> Profitable, yes, but then so is drug dealing.


As a dedicated tabloid reader, Iffy, you can perhaps be forgiven for seeing little difference between people who extort large sums from vulnerable wimps by uttering semi-fraudulent documents and people who supply other people with something they need, or anyway want, for money.

To a reasonable man though, morally speaking, the first are criminals and thieves and the second are businessmen or traders. You may imagine that you don't like their business, perhaps only because it's illegal, but that's another matter.

Thoughtless stereotyping leads to a lurid but inaccurate picture of the world.
 Parking Charge Notice? - -
people
>> who supply other people with something they need, or anyway want, for money.

The good lord wept.

Sometimes AC your utterences astound, those that supply illegal drugs are not misunderstood social workers, they are parasites who are responsible for destroying the lives and minds of the idiots who use the muck and often the families of the victims in the process.

In the unfortunate event that someone was daft enough to put me in charge of this country, i'd put drug dealer swine against the wall and shoot 'em without a moments hesitation...i doubt there'd be a shortage of those willing to assist, fathers of drug addicted children would form a long orderly queue.



 Parking Charge Notice? - CGNorwich
"those that supply illegal drugs are not misunderstood social workers, they are parasites"

Is not blaming the existence of the use of drugs on drug dealers the same as blaming drunken behaviour on supermarkets selling drink or prostitution on prostitutes a cockeyed way of seeing the world. Demand leads to supply. Drug users seek out suppliers and not vice versa.
 Parking Charge Notice? - SteelSpark
>> Is not blaming the existence of the use of drugs on drug dealers the same
>> as blaming drunken behaviour on supermarkets selling drink or prostitution on prostitutes a cockeyed way
>> of seeing the world. Demand leads to supply. Drug users seek out suppliers and not
>> vice versa.

Yeah, it's not as if they give heroin away for free just to create new users.

Well...that one guy did...but James Bond blew him up with that gas canister pellet...
 Parking Charge Notice? - Armel Coussine
I know what you think gb, and I know why you think it. You feel justified in holding these extreme views, and who am I to say you aren't? We have had this conversation before and I don't want to cause you or myself any grief by pursuing it here.

My point in the reply to iffy, which was by way of being a provocative joke, still stands however. Selling something for money seems to me less morally reprehensible than extortion.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Perky Penguin
GB - while your ideas may have much support you will need to include some sort of judicial process into your Utopian world of round 'em up and shoot 'em!
 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

Well, these people could easily and quietly disappear.
The Krays managed it with Jack ' the hat '. Where he is now will never be found, as Tony Lambrianou tells in his book.

Plenty would be interested and keep shtum if the price was right.

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
Jack "the hat" McVitie did not quietly disappear, his death lead to the conviction and jailing of Reggie and Ronnie Cray.

Plus, the EEC now forbids the dumping of bodies in the English Channel, just off Newhaven.
 Parking Charge Notice? - Ted

He was taken to a Suffolk country churchyard at night, a grave had been prepared for the following day's funeral and it was made deeper for him. Frazer was ' buried at sea '.

The Krays tried to get into the Manchester club scene in about '67.
Although the Quality Street gang claimed to have warned them off, they were actually met at the station by Det Ch Supt Nimmo and a posse of big policemen and escorted to a leaving London train. They never returned.

Ted
 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
Seems our friends north of the border are alive to scam parking companies.

Quoting from the Dunoon Observer:

A Glasgow lawyer who has handled a number of cases relating to private car parking firms said: “The bills these companies send out are not bills - they are invitations to pay. I would advise people not to accept the invitation.
“This particular company takes photographs of vehicles’ registration numbers and issues its invoices to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They do not know who was driving it.
“They do not have authority to make the keeper name the driver – and they can’t sue a car.
“Unless somebody admits liability - maybe by writing back with an excuse - it would be very difficult, probably impossible, for them to successfully sue.”


The article goes on to say the scam company refused to comment.

They would, you can't defend the indefensible.

www.dunoon-observer.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2134:parking-shock&catid=1:news
 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
Frazer? who was Frazer?

Frank (The Mad Axeman) Mitchell's body was dumped at sea off the Essex coast by Freddie Foreman, after being shot in the back of a van.

George Cornell was shot in the Blind Beggar pub, he body was left there to be buried in the normal manner.

McVitie was stabbed at a party in Stoke Newington, and Reggie admitted in an interview just before his death that he dumped the body from a boat off Newhaven.


Not getting your mad axeman mixed up are you? Thinking of Mad Frankie Fraser?




 Parking Charge Notice? - Iffy
...Not getting your mad axeman mixed up are you?...

I bet Mad Foreman Frankie the Axe Hat McVitie wouldn't have paid a scam parking ticket.

 Parking Charge Notice? - Zero
The crays would have been running a scam parking company tho! You wouldnt have refused to pay them!
 Parking Charge Notice? - Armel Coussine
>> The crays would have been running a scam parking company tho! You wouldnt have refused to pay them!

At last, the mystery of Jack the Hat's murder explained.

I have never bought the story that he was an unpleasant drunken thug who didn't even have the sense not to diss the Krays for their sexual inclinations. It's far more likely that he left his Ford Pilot on a Kray-controlled bombsite for five minutes too long.

Thank you Zeddo.
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