| Motoring Discussion > Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) | Miscellaneous |
Thread Author: R.P. |
Replies: 64 |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 09:26
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - R.P.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8583551.stm Another way to penalise motorists or common sense ? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 09:49
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Common sense, although I'm not sure because of the health arguments. If they are cracking down on people eating and drinking behind the wheel because of demonstrated impairment of driving, surely having a lit cigarette in your mouth is worse? Especially when lighting it (a 2-handed operation? Not sure, have never smoked). Saying that, the rise in road-rage from nicotine-starved nutters could become a problem. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 09:54
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - teabelly
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The nicotine addiction could be controlled with either patches before driving or gum. Both less risky then fiddling with lit objects. As the mobile phone use is barely enforceable I don't see how a smoking ban could be enforced. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 09:50
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Alanovich
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Common sense. I've always thought it a very danerous activity, lighting and holding a burning object whilst in control of a highly flammable projectile travelling at up tp 70mph (and beyond). But I've always wondered why people smoking at the wheel are not pulled up for dangerous driving under existing legislation, when they are for doing things like eating. Then again I suppose this would cover passengers also. A better law would be to disallow smoking in the presence of children, though, regardless of cars, but I would support a ban on smoking whilst driving for safety reasons. My cousin dropped a lit fag whilst driving a Mini once, and slammed in to a tree. Nearly did for him that did. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 09:52
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - teabelly
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If they're going to get uppity about people eating, drinking and using a mobile phone then smoking has to be considered a risk anyway. If you're messing around with a lit cigarette in a confined space you're not really in control of your vehicle and the potential for accident is higher. Yes you can manage the risk to some degree by choosing your moments but it is still an anti social habit to inflict on passengers and lots of smokers drop ash and cigarettes out of the window. I've never understood why a grown adult would want to have burning dried leaves within inches of their nose by choice anyway as it seems such a bizarre passtime! |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 11:37
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Bromptonaut
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The reccomandation is from the RC of Physicians and is about child health from passive smoking. Common sense not to smoke with kids in the car but not territory for the law on grounds of enforceability. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 12:23
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - idle_chatterer
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As a child in the 1970s my Mum used to smoke in the front of the car, this invariably made my sister and I feel nauseous. She thought that meant we got travel sick, the stupidity, ignorance and selfishness of this still astounds me to this day - and I loved my Mum who was an intelligent, well educated professional (deputy head teacher). I think this is symptomatic of the smoker's addiction that they are blinded to the obvious, the evidence has been around for 40 years that it's a harmful thing to do to yourself and those around you. However whilst banning it from public spaces is enforceable this isn't, the only way to get people to stop smoking near to children (at home or in the car) is to try to get through to them, something which is a significant challenge given that smokers are already choosing to ignore stark facts in the first place ? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 12:31
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Alanovich
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Just remembered that I was watching Planes, Trains and Automobiles last night. The case against smoking in cars was made very clear in that film! |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 13:09
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - FotheringtonTomas
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>> Common sense not to smoke with kids in the car but not territory for the >> law on grounds of enforceability. I agree with this post - that it's a recommendation from the RCPhys about passive smoking. The point of the article is not relevant to safety considerations in driving. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 12:38
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Telb
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IMHO, an unenforceable measure. They can't even police telephone usage when driving properly, so this has no chance. Terry |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 13:23
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Fursty Ferret
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Good. Sorry to sound one sided but almost invariably if someone has made a stupid decision, cut me up, pulled out unexpectedly or simply failed to say thank you after I let them through they'll have one hand clamped around a cigarette. I'm astonished that I'm not allowed to eat a snack but someone is allowed to set fire to something at the wheel. I would actually like to see a study looking at the decision making impact and short term psychological effects of nicotine. No doubt the smokers will see this is a personal attack. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 13:39
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - FotheringtonTomas
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>> I'm astonished that I'm not allowed to eat a snack (at the wheel) There's no law against it, AFAIK. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 14:10
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - L'escargot
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4788910.stm "When it comes to things like eating, smoking, applying make-up, map reading and tuning in the car stereo, they are not against the law but drivers can be charged with careless driving or not being in proper control of their vehicle." |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 14:19
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Focusless
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>> news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4788910.stm Applying makeup while actually moving probably deserves a ticket, but haven't people been fined for the less obviously dangerous activity of eating while stationary at traffic lights? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 14:38
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Stuartli
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>>..of eating while stationary at traffic lights?>> Yes, and also for drinking (such as from a bottle of water or pop). I've been driving on four wheels since 1964 and regularly smoked whilst driving. Never caused me or others on the roads any problem, although I don't smoke if there's a passenger. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 14:58
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Armel Coussine
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Can't bear these smoking threads (or threads in which people give their worthless opinions on whether it ought to be illegal to scratch your bum or take a swig out of a bottle of poteen at the wheel without pulling into a layby and turning the engine off). I don't know which is more annoying, non-smokers who want to interfere with other people's addictions or smokers showing how reasonable and responsible they can be. I was raised in a chainsmoking world in the middle of a horrible war, but in many ways it was preferable to this one. People had less time for sanctimonious, vacuous faffing in those days. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 24 Mar 10 at 14:58
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 15:58
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Pat
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There speaks a man after me own heart! Pat |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 16:33
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Ted
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I bet some crank comes up with the idea that smoking's bad for the smoker as well ! Whatever next...someone'll be advertising leather suites on TV if we're not careful ! Ted |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 21:57
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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OK, devil's advocate here. Smoking threads always bring out the rabid anti-smokers but can I pose a couple (well, maybe more!!) questions? But first, a confession - I am a smoker - grew up in the '60s when almost everybody smoked (yes, including my Doctor who used to offer his patients a ciggy at a consultation!) but since my children were born I have not smoked in the car or in the house or anywhere else where they were close by. It's common sense init? and they are both rabid anti-smokers!! First, can you point me in the way of any research which definitely proves that passive smoking has harmful effects? As for the dangers of smoking when driving, the average smoker can light up in seconds (no it's not a two handed operation). Can all you non-smokers unwrap a toffee in less time, open a packet of Polos; change a CD, radio station, adjust satnav; adjust your seat, tell the kids off for messing about in the back; do you never get distracted by that pretty girl in the short skirt across the road; do you ever glance at the countryside you are passing? is using your bluetooth/hands free phone less distracting; is talking (or having a row) with your wife in the passenger seat less distracting? Do you never have only one hand on the wheel? Ever driven with a hangover or when feeling unwell? Have you never done any of these things at the wheel? Yes smoking is bad for the smoker, but then I presume that none of you ever eat fatty fast food, put salt on your dinner, put salt in your veg when cooking, have a few units of alcohol too many per week. You are not overweight are you? You exercise regularly? Eat your 5 fruit and veg per day? etc etc. And of course, having a spliff would never have occurred to you. Yes, I know; "but my weight problem doesn't affect other people" but then neither does my smoking since I am only allowed to smoke in the presence of other smokers, not non-smokers. Why do we have to have new laws for everything when there are existing laws? Driving without due care etc. Same with binge drinking in our cities - what's wrong with the "drunk and disorderly " law? Tell you what drinkers, you (we) will be next - no drinking in a public place - bang goes that bottle of chilled white or can of beer on a picnic- sets the kids a bad example (like having a beer at home or a glass of wine in their presence). Here's a new law for you all which I now propose. All cars should be fitted with a tachograph and be subject to the same restrictions as HGV drivers. More accidents are caused by tired drivers than smoking drivers. Why should I have a tacho on a 4x4 towing a car trailer but you can hitch up your caravan and drive 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you want? Judging from the thread on longest drives some of you could do with a tacho. Oh, and while we are about it, you will be limited to 60 mph on motorways. Now I guarantee that that would save more children's lives than banning smoking in cars (with or without children). Or a ban on car exhausts - now they are really harmful to children's lungs. OK, devil's advocate mode switched off - need a cigar and top up of the red stuff. Happy motoring all! Phil Last edited by: PhilW on Wed 24 Mar 10 at 21:59
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:07
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - zookeeper
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| i take my elderly mother to the shops on saturdays ( shes 72) she likes to tug on a benson during the car journey, im her 50 year old child ..will any smoking ban that disallows a parent smoking in a car whilst their children are present count in this case ? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:57
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Bromptonaut
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Phil, I'm generally with you on the libertarian aspect but without bringing Roy Castle in to the argument I think child's coughing etc is sufficient evidence of the health risk. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:06
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Robin O'Reliant
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Roy Castle himself decided that his cancer was caused by passive smoking, there was no medical evidence to say this was actually so. Passive smoking seems to me to be a bit of an invention by the health facists, we can't convince everyone to give them up for their own sake so let's try a bit of emotional blackmail by telling them they are killing everyone else. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:17
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Manatee
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>>Passive smoking seems to me to be a bit of an invention by the health facists, we can't >>convince everyone to give them up for their own sake so let's try a bit of emotional >>blackmail by telling them they are killing everyone else. For a smoker to hold to this view is fairly risk-free. For a non-smoker it might be unwise. The fact that annuity rates are much higher for properly dedicated smokers suggests it's not a healthy pastime. Passive smoking might be less risky but it's on the same axis. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:29
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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"Passive smoking might be less risky but it's on the same axis." Sorry to harp on, but could you point me in the direction of the research papers which prove this? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:45
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Manatee
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>> Sorry to harp on but could you point me in the direction of the research >> papers which prove this? I assert nothing, except that smoking is a health hazard and that passive smoking is just a variation thereof, albeit involving less smoke than having the same number of fags yourself. I could equally ask for proof of its harmlessness, but I'm not trying to win an argument, just having a chat ;-) Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 24 Mar 10 at 23:46
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:17
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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"coughing etc is sufficient evidence of the health risk" Worst coughing fit I ever had was when a bit of merangue went down the wrong way - nearly choked to death! Ban merangue!! Especially in cars - the bits flew everywhere - could have blinded a driver! |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 09:44
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Phil, I know that nicotine is a powerful addiction, and has an ability to rob the user of the ability to reason soundly, but your stance on passive smoking is still quite breathtaking (no pun intended). 99% of you won't read this massive post, but please please believe me that passive smoking is nearly as bad as smoking, and that's really bad. I'm not suggesting banning smoking by the way, just pointing out that it is incredibly harmful to those around, and tehrefore teh restrictions are there with good cause. Kids are not getting cancer, and there are no long term studies that I can find that show if this happens later, but asthma and other respiratory / pulmonary damage are real and proven. The horrible toxins in the smoke are diluted by being absorbed into your blood, but they are not going away; you are not breathing out sweet mountain air. Evidence? Initial Pubmed search on children and passive smoking threw up more than 3500 peer reviewed journal papers. So I narrowed the search down to just 2007, 2008 and 2009. I think followed up any interesting links back to about 2001. I've included the URL with every paper so that you can go and judge for yourself (Sorry, the forum is cutting it in half, you can put it back together and use it still).. Highlights: Cardiac effects: Childhood exposure to tobacco smoke (verified with serum cotinine levels) decreases aortic elastic properties in healthy children (Kallio et al., 2009). The evidence that active smoking is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease (CVD) and the leading cause of preventable death is overwhelming. However, numerous epidemiological findings indicate that even passive exposure to cigarette smoke may exert detrimental effects on vascular homoeostasis. Recent experimental data provide a deeper insight into the pathophysiological mechanisms linking secondhand smoke (SHS) to CVD. Importantly, most of these effects appear to be characterized by a rapid onset. For example, the relatively low doses of toxins inhaled by passive smoking are sufficient to elicit acute endothelial dysfunction, and these effects may be related, at least in part, to the inactivation of nitric oxide. Moreover, passive smoking may directly impair the viability of endothelial cells and reduce the number and functional activity of circulating endothelial progenitor cells. In addition, platelets of non-smokers appear to be susceptible to pro-aggregatory changes with every passive smoke exposure. Overall, SHS induces oxidative stress and promotes vascular inflammation. Apart from vasoconstriction and thrombus formation, however, the myocardial oxygen balance is further impaired by SHS-induced adrenergic stimulation and autonomic dysfunction. These data strongly suggest that passive smoking is capable of precipitating acute manifestations of CVD (atherothrombosis) and may also have a negative impact on the outcome of patients who suffer acute coronary syndromes (Raupach et al., 2006). Asthma Passive smoke exposure affects different aspects of asthma control not only diurnal and nocturnal symptoms and exacerbations but also rescue medication use and lung functions as well as bronchial hyperreactivity, school absenteeism and quality of life. Immediate effects of passive smoke exposure in all these asthma parameters seem to be additive to those of chronic exposure (Bakirtas, 2009). FEV1/FVC ratio and FEF25%-75% (forced expiratory flow at 25%-75% of vital capacity) were significantly lower in the subjects exposed to paternal smoking as compared to non-smokers. CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest a significant reduction in indices of lung functions of adolescents exposed to paternal smoke (Bhargava & Khaliq, 2008). Our study confirms previous studies, that in particular prenatal ETS exposure is a risk factor for wheezing and asthma in preschool children. Despite this, children exposed to ETS also live a "less healthier life" in terms of breast feeding and antioxidant intake. In the light of recent studies reporting increased oxidative stress in children exposed to passive smoking, the low intake of fruits and vegetables is a further concern (Horak et al., 2007). The effects of tobacco smoke exposure on the respiratory health of school-aged children relate to persisting effects of exposure to tobacco smoke during pregnancy and early infancy, passive exposure to environmental tobacco smoke in the home and elsewhere, and active smoking during later childhood. Much of the current evidence comes from cross-sectional and longitudinal observational studies and suggests that, for asthma and pulmonary function outcomes, the strongest associations are with smoke exposure in pregnancy and early childhood, although independent effects of later exposure are reported. Exposure in later childhood to environmental tobacco smoke is associated with increased respiratory symptoms, although for some of these, the effect appears to diminish with increasing age of the child. There is currently a paucity of evidence on the long-term adverse respiratory consequences of active smoking by children and adolescents, but such evidence there is suggests that these may be substantial (Henderson, 2008). References used above: Bakirtas, A. (2009) "Acute effects of passive smoking on asthma in childhood" Inflamm Allergy Drug Targets, 8(5), pp. 353-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=20025582. Bhargava, E. K. & Khaliq, F. (2008) "Effect of paternal smoking on the pulmonary functions of adolescent males" Indian J Physiol Pharmacol, 52(4), pp. 413-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19585760. Henderson, A. J. (2008) "The effects of tobacco smoke exposure on respiratory health in school-aged children" Paediatr Respir Rev, 9(1), pp. 21-7; quiz 27-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18280976. Horak, E., Morass, B. & Ulmer, H. (2007) "Association between environmental tobacco smoke exposure and wheezing disorders in Austrian preschool children" Swiss Med Wkly, 137(43-44), pp. 608-13. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17990155. Kallio, K., Jokinen, E., Hamalainen, M., Saarinen, M., Volanen, I., Kaitosaari, T., Viikari, J., Ronnemaa, T., Simell, O. & Raitakari, O. T. (2009) "Decreased aortic elasticity in healthy 11-year-old children exposed to tobacco smoke" Pediatrics, 123(2), pp. e267-73. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19171579. Raupach, T., Schafer, K., Konstantinides, S. & Andreas, S. (2006) "Secondhand smoke as an acute threat for the cardiovascular system: a change in paradigm" Eur Heart J, 27(4), pp. 386-92. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=16230308. Other references that may be of interest (Found in a 10 min search of Pubmed) Ahmadzadehfar, H., Oguogho, A., Efthimiou, Y., Kritz, H. & Sinzinger, H. (2006) "Passive cigarette smoking increases isoprostane formation" Life Sci, 78(8), pp. 894-7. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=16165164. Alberg, A. (2002) "The influence of cigarette smoking on circulating concentrations of antioxidant micronutrients" Toxicology, 180(2), pp. 121-37. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=12324189. Alwan, N., Siddiqi, K., Thomson, H. & Cameron, I. (2009) "Children's exposure to second-hand smoke in the home: A household survey in the North of England" Health Soc Care Community. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=20050935. Argacha, J. F., Fontaine, D., Adamopoulos, D., Ajose, A., van de Borne, P., Fontaine, J. & Berkenboom, G. (2008) "Acute effect of sidestream cigarette smoke extract on vascular endothelial function" J Cardiovasc Pharmacol, 52(3), pp. 262-7. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18806607. Arif, A. A. & Shah, S. M. (2007) "Association between personal exposure to volatile organic compounds and asthma among US adult population" Int Arch Occup Environ Health, 80(8), pp. 711-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17357796. Atef, A., Zeid, I. A., Qotb, M. & El Rab, E. G. (2009) "Effect of passive smoking on ciliary regeneration of nasal mucosa after functional endoscopic sinus surgery in children" J Laryngol Otol, 123(1), pp. 75-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18845033. Aycicek, A., Erel, O. & Kocyigit, A. (2005a) "Decreased total antioxidant capacity and increased oxidative stress in passive smoker infants and their mothers" Pediatr Int, 47(6), pp. 635-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=16354215. Aycicek, A., Erel, O. & Kocyigit, A. (2005b) "Increased oxidative stress in infants exposed to passive smoking" Eur J Pediatr, 164(12), pp. 775-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=16025297. Aycicek, A. & Ipek, A. (2008) "Maternal active or passive smoking causes oxidative stress in cord blood" Eur J Pediatr, 167(1), pp. 81-5. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17297611. Bakirtas, A. (2009) "Acute effects of passive smoking on asthma in childhood" Inflamm Allergy Drug Targets, 8(5), pp. 353-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=20025582. Barnoya, J. & Glantz, S. A. (2005) "Cardiovascular effects of secondhand smoke: nearly as large as smoking" Circulation, 111(20), pp. 2684-98. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=15911719. Beyer, D., Mitfessel, H. & Gillissen, A. 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M., Caceres, M. E., Jossen, R. & Baena-Cagnani, C. E. (2009) "Adolescent smokers are at greater risk for current asthma and rhinitis" Int J Tuberc Lung Dis, 13(8), pp. 1023-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19723384. Han, Y. Y., Lee, Y. L. & Guo, Y. L. (2009) "Indoor environmental risk factors and seasonal variation of childhood asthma" Pediatr Allergy Immunol, 20(8), pp. 748-56. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19236600. Henderson, A. J. (2008) "The effects of tobacco smoke exposure on respiratory health in school-aged children" Paediatr Respir Rev, 9(1), pp. 21-7; quiz 27-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18280976. Hong, R., Betancourt, J. A. & Ruiz-Beltran, M. 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Review on long-term outcome until adulthood after early childhood wheezing" Acta Paediatr, 97(1), pp. 5-11. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18052998. Pirogowicz, I., Joniec, L., Guzikowski, W. & Gwiazda, E. (2008) "[Influence of smoking cigarettes on the development of the child and its health condition]" Przegl Lek, 65(10), pp. 427-31. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19189516. Raupach, T., Schafer, K., Konstantinides, S. & Andreas, S. (2006) "Secondhand smoke as an acute threat for the cardiovascular system: a change in paradigm" Eur Heart J, 27(4), pp. 386-92. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=16230308. Rennie, D. C., Lawson, J. A., Kirychuk, S. P., Paterson, C., Willson, P. J., Senthilselvan, A. & Cockcroft, D. W. 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(2007) "Asthma score: predictive ability and risk factors" Allergy, 62(2), pp. 142-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17298422. Tanaka, K., Miyake, Y., Arakawa, M., Sasaki, S. & Ohya, Y. (2007) "Prevalence of asthma and wheeze in relation to passive smoking in Japanese children" Ann Epidemiol, 17(12), pp. 1004-10. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17855117. Tyc, V. L., Lensing, S., Vukadinovich, C. M. & Hovell, M. F. (2009) "Can parents of children with cancer accurately report their child's passive smoking exposure?" Nicotine Tob Res, 11(11), pp. 1289-95. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19696308. Valkonen, M. M. & Kuusi, T. (2000) "Vitamin C prevents the acute atherogenic effects of passive smoking" Free Radic Biol Med, 28(3), pp. 428-36. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=10699755. Vardavas, C. I. & Panagiotakos, D. B. (2009) "The causal relationship between passive smoking and inflammation on the development of cardiovascular disease: a review of the evidence" Inflamm Allergy Drug Targets, 8(5), pp. 328-33. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=20025578. Vogt, R., Bersamin, A., Ellemberg, C. & Winkleby, M. A. (2008) "Evaluation of risk factors and a community intervention to increase control and treatment of asthma in a low-income semi-rural California community" J Asthma, 45(7), pp. 568-74. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18773328. Wang, C. P., Ma, S. J., Xu, X. F., Wang, J. F., Mei, C. Z. & Yang, G. H. (2009) "The prevalence of household second-hand smoke exposure and its correlated factors in six counties of China" Tob Control, 18(2), pp. 121-6. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19131456. Xepapadaki, P., Manios, Y., Liarigkovinos, T., Grammatikaki, E., Douladiris, N., Kortsalioudaki, C. & Papadopoulos, N. G. (2009) "Association of passive exposure of pregnant women to environmental tobacco smoke with asthma symptoms in children" Pediatr Allergy Immunol, 20(5), pp. 423-9. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=19674350. Yogev-Baggio, T., Bibi, H., Dubnov, J., Or-Hen, K., Carel, R. & Portnov, B. A. "Who is affected more by air pollution-sick or healthy? Some evidence from a health survey of schoolchildren living in the vicinity of a coal-fired power plant in Northern Israel" Health Place, 16(2), pp. 399-408. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=20018550. Yunesian, M., Homayoun-Vash, J., Asghari, F., Foruzanfar, M. H., Hosein-Poor, A. R. & Farhud, D. (2008) "Smoking-related respiratory symptoms in tehran: a cross-sectional study" Arch Iran Med, 11(5), pp. 507-14. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=18759517. Zalata, A., Yahia, S., El-Bakary, A. & Elsheikha, H. M. (2007) "Increased DNA damage in children caused by passive smoking as assessed by comet assay and oxidative stress" Mutat Res, 629(2), pp. 140-7. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed& dopt=Citation&list_uids=17368083. Last edited by: Statistical Outlier on Thu 25 Mar 10 at 09:46
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 12:22
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - FotheringtonTomas
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My God, what a wodge of cut'n'paste. This should go to "non-motoring", or possibly just "non". P.S. nicotine isn't the issue (unless you have too much - like salt, alcohol, etc. it can be a deadly poison). The health risks come from tar and associated crap. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 12:32
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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| FT, fair point, only the top few paras are interesting. The rest are a selection of relevant papers from the last 3 years demonstrating passive smoking is a real risk. There are many interesting and relevant arguments, passive smoking not being dangerous is not one of them. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 21:35
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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SO, Thanks for taking the time to do that - it may take me a while to read your references but I will! PS A quick glance at references doesn't suggest many from Britain (but may be wrong on that!!!) |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 23:14
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Phil, it's really not very organised, the long list was a dump of all the papers that I'd spotted. The links will take you through to Pubmed, where you can look at who was cited. You can also use Google Scholar to look at who has since cited that paper - can be useful to follow a trail through to see where the research went. I didn't make any effort to look for UK data, but author address is a searchable field, so you could do so if you wanted to. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 23:32
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Bromptonaut
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>> A quick glance at references doesn't suggest many from Britain Are British passive smokers likely to be different from those in the US, France or Germany? |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:09
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Manatee
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If someone wants to inhale carcinogenic smoke on their own or with other consenting adults in their own car then it shouldn't be the government's business to stop them - especially as they are paying large amounts of tax for the privilege. On the other hand, if the case is being made on safety grounds I wouldn't argue, having been threatened with being run in by an obnoxious copper for the lethally irresponsible eating of a ham sandwich at the wheel in a traffic jam in Leeds in 1986. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:30
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Robin O'Reliant
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PhilW has hit the nail on the head with unerring accuracy. Well said sir. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:40
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - tyro
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"Why do we have to have new laws for everything when there are existing laws?" (PhilW) Because making laws keeps politicians in a job. Apparently almost 4,300 new criminal offences have been created since 1997. tinyurl.com/y8cgfcr Last edited by: tyro on Wed 24 Mar 10 at 22:42
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 22:44
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Ted
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I smoked ciggies until about 1970 when I moved to a different base in the suburbs. I found it hard to get into the City to get the fags I liked so gave up and concentrated on my pipe. I still smoke the old pipe, I've found a good Dutch baccy, available locally. I used to smoke cigars until a few years back but they were getting expensive and my biking mate and I went cold turkey on the same day. We both miss them like hell though. SWMBO has just stopped but both son and sil, who work together, smoke roll-ups. Never when the ankle biters are around, though. They always go out the back.. On long trips, I used to lay out a few cigars on the dash and have a lighter handy, no struggling with packets. They were good at keeping you alert on night runs. Life's too short to go through it without any enjoyment. Smoke, drink, do dangerous sports, enjoy it all....there's no second go ! Ted |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:27
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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And as for eating a bag of crisps - tinyurl.com/yzgg5u5 ban crisps! They kill kids! and that's not even taking account of the deadly effect of your greasy fingers on the steering wheel if you eat them while driving! |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:32
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Manatee
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tinyurl.com/yzgg5u5 Good grief. Not a lot to be said for salt is there? I'll chuck out the Cerebos immediately if not sooner. |
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New Wed 24 Mar 10 23:46
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - rtj70
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| All I can add about smoking is it killed my father (his childhood asthma returned in his thirties) when he was 43 and I was 9. Was smoking a cause....... yes it was. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 05:11
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Pat
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This is supposed to be about protecting children from their parents, not whether smoking is dangerous/unhealthy or whatever. ( we all know the risks and make an educated choice to take them). How about using this money to educate the parents in parenting skills? Why use a sledgehammer to crack a nut? The parents of today seem to have very little control over their children and even less so over themselves. Source the problem and deal with it, not a blanket ban on the very many families ( yes we are still families) who have taken a decision not to have children and never have them in a car. There are no bad dogs, only bad owners...................>>>insert children<<< Pat |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 07:44
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Focusless
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These put me off: images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=smokers+lungs (in response to PhilW) Last edited by: Focus on Thu 25 Mar 10 at 07:45
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 10:56
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Ted
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>> These put me off: >> images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=smokers+lungs >> >If you've ever smelled these black horrors being removed from a cadaver, you'd need to be smoking at the time. The pong is absolutely awful. Manchester had a pathologist working at the Central Mortuary in the 60s, Dr Blench. He was never without a ciggie and didn't ever seem concerned about the ash dropping off into his day's ' projects ' Horrible. Ted |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 10:58
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Focusless
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>> If you've ever smelled these black horrors being removed from a cadaver you'd need to >> be smoking at the time. The pong is absolutely awful. I'm guessing the pink ones don't smell that great either though... :) Last edited by: Focus on Thu 25 Mar 10 at 10:58
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 08:25
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - tyro
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tinyurl.com/yzgg5u5 Thanks for the link, Phil. And in the bottom right hand corner on the poster, 9 charities that I'm not likely to be giving to in future. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 09:46
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - John H
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BMJ 2005;330:277 (5 February), doi:10.1136/bmj.38327.648472.82 (published 28 January 2005) Paper Environmental tobacco smoke and risk of respiratory cancer and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease in former smokers and never smokers in the EPIC prospective study P Vineis, epidemiologist1, for the EPIC Prospective Study Group 1 Imperial College, London W2 1PG Childhood exposure Environmental tobacco smoke exposure during childhood showed an association with lung cancer, particularly among those who had never smoked; the association was significant for daily exposure for many hours. The observation is not new, but the literature is not entirely consistent.9 10 To our knowledge, ours is the first prospective study to report such association. Of course, the reliability of information on exposure to environmental tobacco smoke in childhood can be questioned, although most people should be able to recall whether their parents smoked. The uptake of carcinogens in children exposed to environmental tobacco smoke is widespread and quantitatively important.11 BMJ 2006;333 (19 August), doi:10.1136/bmj.333.7564.0-c Women exposed to environmental tobacco smoke have increased mortality Environmental tobacco smoke and mortality in Chinese women who have never smoked: prospective cohort study Wanqing Wen, Xiao Ou Shu, Yu-Tang Gao, Gong Yang, Qi Li, Honglan Li, and Wei Zheng BMJ 2006 333: 376. In non-smoking Chinese women exposure to environmental tobacco smoke is related to moderately increased mortality from all causes, from lung cancer, and from cardiovascular disease. Wen and colleagues (p 376) analysed data of over 72 000 women who had never smoked and found that exposure to tobacco smoke from husbands was associated with increased mortality from all causes and from cardiovascular disease. Exposure to environmental tobacco smoke at work was associated with increased mortality from cancer, especially lung cancer. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 09:53
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Fursty Ferret
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Phil - you might be able to light up quickly with little brainpower, but (honestly) what would your reaction be if you dropped your lit cigarette into your lap and it went out of sight, or fell down the side of the seat? I suppose the other impact is on the resale value of your car, since I can always tell if a car used to belong to a smoker and walk away. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 10:33
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Pat
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This issue is solely about stopping smoking in cars specifically to protect children from passive smoking. As usual, the non smokers and the anti smokers see fit to turn it into a tirade of horror stories and 'what if' scenarios, completely ignoring the point in question. I accept that those of you don't smoke for your own personal reasons, I don't question your right to make that decision for yourself. Please stop questioning my right to do what I like with my body and my money. I don't have children in my car, I don't smoke at work, I don't smoke in a public place so but out and leave me alone. Pat |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 10:40
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Pat, you're right, we are off topic, but the original point is actually not that interesting. Smoking with kids in the car is clearly wrong. Smoking when there aren't is probably wrong too, much as eating / drinking / phoning is, but banning it is a bit pointless as it won't be enforced and there are other things far higher on my agenda. I think the wider personal freedom vs. protection of society as a whole is far more interesting. It is none of my business if you smoke, and I defend your right to do so. My long point above was a plea to Phil and others to realise that passive smoking is a real and proven harm to others, and therefore that that harm should be taken into account in the risk/benefit calculations. From the sounds of it, you're not causing risk to anyone, so I don't see why you should be stopped any more than I should be stopped from mountain biking. They are both unnecessary risks that some would say are stupid and likely to maim, but it's a free country and it would be nice if it could stay that way. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 21:27
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - PhilW
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"Phil - you might be able to light up quickly with little brainpower, but (honestly) what would your reaction be if you dropped your lit cigarette into your lap and it went out of sight, or fell down the side of the seat?" I don't smoke cigarettes (small cigars) I don't smoke in the car.........but.... I take your point |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 12:24
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - FotheringtonTomas
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>> having been threatened with being run in by an obnoxious copper for the lethally >> irresponsible eating of a ham sandwich at the wheel in a traffic jam in Leeds >> in 1986. Good grounds to make an official complaint against obnoxious person. It might not get a result, but it might make the officious sod think twice next time. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 12:34
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - movilogo
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Teenage hairdresser dies in explosion after her cigarette ignites hair bleach left in her car www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 14:12
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Pat
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Now there's a case for hairdressers needing an ADR certificate Pat |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 12:55
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Back on topic, opinion piece firmly against the bad in the Telegraph today: tinyurl.com/yzzacq6 |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 14:58
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Armel Coussine
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The campaign against smoking has achieved very considerable change. Quite a lot of people now forbid, or (if polite) discourage gently, smoking in their houses. Smoking is banned in public transport, offices and other workplaces, pubs and restaurants. Cigarette sales are in long-term decline, unsurprisingly as a single coffin nail now costs more than six bob, and about to rise again. I smoked around my children. Two of them now sternly forbid me to smoke in their houses. They must have felt the same as I did around my chainsmoking parents and their nicotine-head friends. In my late adolescence I was at a public school where smoking was allowed, every other Sunday evening, for over-16s. A lot of my contemporaries were enthusiastic smokers, but I wasn't. Tobacco made me feel sick and faint. Nevertheless I got addicted to the damn stuff in early adulthood, by roundabout means. In the sixties I worked in market research for a tobacco company which gave me all the free snout I wanted (the work had interesting moments too). But the habit to the individual is very useless, anti-social and generally baleful. It certainly killed three of my close relations. No one in their right mind would take it up. But: I am too old not to resent the cheek, the effrontery, of those who are prepared to confront me about something that harms, really, only me. The risk posed to children or others by the ideologically-termed 'passive smoking' is minuscule and statistical. I am not harming anyone around me by smoking and if they think I am they know what they can do. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 15:02
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Pat
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How is it you can put my point across far better than I can? Pat:) |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 15:16
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Alanovich
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A few small contradictions there it seems to me, AC. You call smoking anti-social, but do not accept it is harmful to others. If the latter, why is it anti-social? Should anti-social behaviour not be proscribed by society? statistics showing it is harmful to others. So how can you say it is not harmful to others by saying it is harmful only to yourself? Apologies if you find this effrontery or cheeky. Smoking in the presence of anyone who finds it distasteful or is too young to object is plain and simple bad manners and selfishness, it is withdrawing the other party's choice. I am delighted that it is no longer imposed upon people who wish to socialise in pubs and restaurants without inhaling harmful smoke. Fortunately my mother never smoked, and my father gave up when their first child was born. But we suffered the second hand smoke of all our grandparents, who, at the ages of 45, 60, 62 and 67 all succumbed to smoking related illnesses and bought the farm. Three heart disease, one cancer. They meant no harm, but I still resent their behaviour. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 15:35
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - movilogo
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As I am a non-smoker I'm in favor of banning smoking in cars ;) Please don't assume that I'm supporting govt's big brother attitude. Smoking leaves an odour in car which doesn't go easily and any non-smoker entering the car can feel it. I am also reluctant to equate smoking with eating on wheels. Smoking involves fire which is a dangerous thing to handle during driving (yes, many smokers handle it without any issue but I still...). |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 15:47
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Robin O'Reliant
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>> Smoking leaves an odour in car which doesn't go easily and any non-smoker entering the >> car can feel it. >> >> Any non-smoker who enters my car - I emphasise MY car - and objects to having their delicate little nose offended by any lingering cigarette smoke will be quickly shown where the nearest bus stop is. |
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New Thu 25 Mar 10 16:02
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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>> But: I am too old not to resent the cheek the effrontery of those who >> are prepared to confront me about something that harms really only me. The risk posed >> to children or others by the ideologically-termed 'passive smoking' is minuscule and statistical. I am >> not harming anyone around me by smoking and if they think I am they know >> what they can do. Not really confronting you AC, I'm pretty sure you're right and you're not really harming anyone. The smoking ban has seen to that, it's now easy for non-smokers (myself included) to avoid passive smoking should we wish to. As a result, I'm against any further unnecessary infringement of your liberty. The effects of passive smoking are neither minuscule nor trivial though. Not at all. Oh, and I can't remember who posted it and I can't be bothered to check, but 'people should be banned from smoking in their cars as non smokers will find the smell unpleasant if they have a lift'. What? What business of mine or any other non-smokers is it what someone elses car smells like?? I can't abide air-fresheners, doesn't mean they should be banned. |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 14:12
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Dog
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| If passive smoking is so bad, how come all our pets don't get lung cancer? |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 14:21
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Zero
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I would say, that most of the poster on here, who are 50 or over had parents that smoked in the car. Yet here we are, all still living despite all the wails of gloom and death. All these "ban this and ban that" doo gooders ever achieve is a nation of people who are medically intolerant to anything other than sterile food mush and pure oxygen. |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 14:36
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Dog
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>>> All these "ban this and ban that" doo gooders ever achieve is a nation of people who are medically intolerant to anything other than sterile food mush and pure <<< Scuse me whilst I check my shares in Bayer & GSK. |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 21:19
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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With lung cancer, smoking doesn't guarantee you'll get it, not by a long way. Not smoking pretty much guarantees you won't though. You pays yer money... |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 21:23
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Statistical Outlier
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Dog, I'm not sure, but I can guess. In humans the tumour takes 5-15 years to develop. I'd not be surprised if the same isn't true in a dog, or at least is not accelerated enough to catch up with the truncated lifespan. |
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New Sun 28 Mar 10 21:45
Well - it was bound to happen (smoking in cars) - Dog
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>>> In humans the tumour takes 5-15 years to develop <<< Yes, I can see your point Stat Outlier, as in - people are living longer today than than their forefathers, and so will suffer more from geriatric diseases. But then in 'dog age' my 10 year old Ridgeback is 56 :-) |
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