Morning all,
I could do with some sage words of advice here please.
A few weeks ago I was diagnosed with clinical depression and put on medication (citamaprol). These little blighters caused me to feel more than a little woozy; indeed, I had to come home from work as I did not feel safe driving. My medication was then changed to fluoxetine and this does not have the same effect. My operations manager requested that I see the company doctor before I returned to work and he concluded that, as side-effects from fluoxetine can take up to three months to show I should not return to work for at least one month, perhaps up to the full three months. So, I am not off work as a direct result of my depression but because of the possible (not actual) side-effects of the medication I am on.
This morning, I have received a letter from my operations manager requesting that I inform the DVLA in writing of my 'medical condition'. Now, I am a responsible sort of fellow (honestly!) and, if I thought that I was a risk behind the wheel I would do something about it. However, on looking at the DVLA website ( tinyurl.com/69ktld2 ), it states that, for both my car and PCV licence, if depression does not affect my driving I do not need to tell the DVLA.
I am entirely confident that no side-effects from the fluoxetine that will affect my driving will show and that, when I return to the company doctor I will be passed fit to return to work. However, I am more than a little concerned that informing the DVLA of this will open a can of worms and may lead to my PCV licence at least being suspended. It probably won't help my cause that my GP has put depression as the reason for my absence on my sick-note.
As always, your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
Cheers.
Last edited by: Badwolf on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 10:38
|
Unsure whether depression affects your driving
If you are unsure whether depression affects your driving - you will need to check with your doctor or consultant who will be able to advise you.
If you need to tell DVLA please download the medical questionnaire 'M1V' and send it to DVLA.
Sorry but its pretty clear. The medical conditions include any medication you are on to counteract it. If your company doctor has decided to put you off driving due to your condition AND medication, I feel you are legally obliged to dell the DVLA.
Its already official in one way because the company doctor is involved.
|
That's the way I was leaning, Z. It just feels that, should I have my licence suspended, I will be penalised for bad things happening to me. And that will, very definitely, hinder my recovery rather than help it.
Please take this in the manner in which it is intended, but I do appreciate your forthright-ness (if that is such a word). You have a habit of cutting through the carp and seeing things as they are and that, in my opinion, is a Good Thing.
|
>> That's the way I was leaning, Z. It just feels that, should I have my
>> licence suspended, I will be penalised for bad things happening to me. And that will,
>> very definitely, hinder my recovery rather than help it>>
I had that in mind when I replied, Its like hooking a pride lifeline away from you. I just feel the fallout from not informing the DVLA would be greater, as its already a matter of medical history.
|
>>I just feel the fallout from not informing the DVLA would be greater, as its already a >>matter of medical history.
Dammit, will you have a day of from being right just once please?! ;-)
|
You informed them but the form must have got lost in the post :)
I wonder if your bosses are worried about insurance issues?
|
I would not consider a straight-forward depression to be notifiable to the DVLA and Fluoxetine is highly unlikely to impair your driving ability at any stage of taking it.
Fluoxetine side-effects become apparent within days if they are going to appear. The effect that is slower to appear is the therapeutic benefit of the drug that can take up to 6 weeks to show.
A lot of people seem to be covering their backsides in dealing with you.
Preventing you getting out and about whilst you are recovering by stopping you driving is going to adversely affect your recovery from depression.
|
"Notifiable" doesn't necessarily mean your licence is suspended? Wouldn't they then refer it to their own medical advisers, and probably get a report from your own doctor as to your driving impairment, if any, and then possibly limit your licence to 3 years, subject to a further doctor's report?
That's how it works with diabetes, which can have much more serious consequences, I'd have thought.
|
Take the issue to your GP. The company doctors could be engaged in backside covering.
While if the rules say, 'notify' then that's the rules, but my initial experience with the drivers medical group was not good so unless you should, I'd keep my mouth closed.
|
|
I agree - there could be a knock on to your own private driving as well - especially with the insurance aspect. You need a yes or no from your own GP.
|
I would advise you to refer your Operations Manager to the DVLA page and the requirements for reporting depression.
If he still insists then he is putting undue pressure on you.
The initial treatment wasn't suitable but your GP has changed this for one that doesn't affect your driving.
Your driving hasn't been affected while taking the second medication so there is no requirement to inform DVLA.
I have known cases where it has taken almost two years for a licence to be returned after a person being declared medically fit to drive again by their GP.
It worth considering this when making the decision.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 13:26
|
Thanks for your replies folks.
Sadly, I don't think that I have any choice but to report my 'condition' to the DVLA.
The company I work for (Stagecoach) may be many things, but they are thorough and they are very conscious of doing things by the book. Mainly, as alluded to by others, to cover their own back should something go horribly wrong.
I'm in a Catch-22 situation here as, if I don't report the condition (even if my own GP doesn't think it necessary) I won't be allowed back to work, and if I don't get back to work then the chances of me making a full and speedy recovery are diminished.
I think that the clincher is the final line in the letter from my operations manager: "I require seeing a copy of your letter [to the DVLA] and their reply stating that you are fit to drive a PCV vehicle before you can resume your duties." There is no way that this condition will be waived, as my OM is a stickler for the rules and is as stubborn as a mule.
So my choices are:
1) Don't inform the DVLA, but not be allowed back to work, or
2) Inform the DVLA and run the risk of one, or both, of my licences being suspended.
This is *really* helping me at the moment. What started out as one of my bad days has turned into a ruddy awful day. Thankfully I've got my daughters staying so I've been kept fairly busy.
|
Sorry to hear about this Badwolf. I think Stagecoach are just, as you say, covering themselves. For what it's worth I was on similar medication a few years back and as I was commuting 70 miles a day at the time I had to ask my GP if it would affect my ability to drive. His answer was a definite no - hopefully the DVLA will see it this way too.
If you've not done so already would it be worth speaking to your union rep to see if there any other options open to you at present?
|
I've been lurking for months, but here's my view:
Get your doctor to confirm in writing his opinion that the depression and treatment won't affect your abilities.
Enclose this with your notification to DVLC, explaining that it is your employer who is instigating it
HTH
|
Ok
Way out of this,
Get your doctor to examine you, and write a letter stating that in his opinion there is no effect on your driving skills. Make sure he states he knows you are a PSV driver. ( he will probably charge for this service but hey ho)
Attach letter with form to DVLA, copy the lot for your transport manager.
The DVLA should take no further action, and your transport manager should then shut his trap.
Couple of points. (sorry if they sound blunt)
1/ Your Transport Manager is probably trying to find ways to get shot of you. A driver on long term sick, with the prospect of more to come is no use to him.
2/ If your doctor wont write the letter for medical reasons, you shouldn't be driving anyway.
|
WOW!
If I hadn't stopped to check grammer and spelling, I'd have beaten Z by a minute!
|
HA! raspberry to you
Now you know why my posts are full of grammar errors.
|
Focus all that nasty depressive energy in their direction, might help you get rid of it.
So tell the transport manager you are not reporting anything you don't have to, and he must stop putting pressure on you to do so.
Tell him if he does not stop harassing in you in this way, you will make a written complaint to his boss.
Remind the pair of them, somehow, that you know your way around an employment tribunal.
You were thinking of going back on the coaches, anyway.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 17:27
|
|
Not if his transport manager reports him the DVLA he isnt. He will never get it back then.
|
There is no requirement to report the CURRENT situation to the DVLA whatsoever, and to do so could result in far more problems.
The Operations manager should and does know this and his covering his own back.
DVLA do exactly the same, and then take forever to rectify a situation that need never have happened in the first place.
Pat
|
|
It's not just the transport manager who'll be worried,the insurance company will be as well and,if your firm covers it's own insurance as many do,they'll be worried.
|
>> Not if his transport manager reports him the DVLA he isnt. He will never get
>> it back then.
IF he has sign-off from his GP that he has no need to notify DVLA then that sounds like constructive dismissal/bullying.
And indeed I'm not entirely certain on what basis DVLA will take away a licence on the say so of a third party when the person involved has been cleared by his GP. (Perhaps I'm just being too logical here.)
Talk to your Union rep.
And indeed talk to your boss/company doctor once you have visited your GP and have his bit of paper. They're covering themselves, they don't have to bully you. They perfectly possibly don't *want* to bully you, but have procedures.
So:
1. Talk to your GP.
2. On the basis of what he says, talk to the company.
No point in trying to do it the other way round.
|
Very good advice mapmaker...though it may pain me to say it:)
Pat
|
talk to the gp.
the company have no legal right to make you take their course of action and if they wont let you back to work on the say so of your gp saying you are ok to drive then they will leave themselves open to a lawsuit from you are your union if you involve them.
just decide if you want to play hardball or if you think its too much for yuoat the moment leave this carp to your wife or children to sort for you.
|
Al this talk of bullying, covering asses.
Has anyone considered we are talking about a bus driver here, and that people might be taking their responsibilities to public safety seriously?
|
"Al this talk of bullying, covering asses..."
Zero wants fewer asses covered. So do I.
|
What we're actually talking about is someone who is ill and on medication for it.
Medication that doesn't affect his driving.
What we are looking at is someone who stands to lose the ability to earn a living for well over a year to satisfy his Managers over caution.
If the word of his GP is not good enough then the Ops Manager needs to stand before a tribunal and explain why.
Pat
|
The transport manager has a legal responsibility to ensure the safety of passengers and he is acting on information received from the company doctor who, using his, not your, medical expertise has said there may be side effects from the medication.
Therefore the transport manger is is making the correct decision given the information to hand.
So the correct course of action is to dispute the word of the company doctor, NOT the transport manager. Hence all the advice to get, in writing, the word of his GP.
It may happen, that when push comes to shove, BWs doctor may not wish to put the assertion that BW is fit to drive.
|
>> If the word of his GP is not good enough then the Ops Manager needs
>> to stand before a tribunal and explain why.
Do you know how long it takes to get to a tribunal? about 6 months.
Do you know what happens to a driver that takes his employer to a tribunal? he never works again.
|
...Do you know what happens to a driver that takes his employer to a tribunal? he never works again....
Apart from the OP.
He took his last company to a tribunal, won, and is working again.
|
Sorry Wolfie this is gonna sound bad
He has had trouble at his last depot and been moved.
He has taken his employer to a tribunual once
He is off long term sick with depression.
I would keep my head down, you know? A second tribunal is a very bad idea indeed.
And that is the end of my input to this thread so it stays practical and does not turn personal.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 18:56
|
Among the common adverse effects associated with fluoxetine and listed in the prescribing information, the effects with the greatest difference from placebo are nausea (22% vs 9% for placebo), insomnia (19% vs 10% for placebo), somnolence (12% vs 5% for placebo), anorexia (10% vs 3% for placebo), anxiety (12% vs 6% for placebo), nervousness (13% vs 8% for placebo), asthenia (11% vs 6% for placebo) and tremor (9% vs 2% for placebo).
Insomnia
Insomnia is most often defined by an individual's report of sleeping difficulties
Somnolence
(or "drowsiness") is a state of near-sleep, a strong desire for sleep, or sleeping for unusually long periods
Asthenia
is a medical term denoting symptoms of physical weakness, and may also refer specifically to muscle weakness.
A tremor
is an involuntary, somewhat rhythmic, muscle contraction and relaxation involving to-and-fro movements (oscillations or twitching) of one or more body parts. It is the most common of all involuntary movements and can affect the hands, arms, eyes, face, head, vocal cords, trunk, and legs
And now I shall depart this thread.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 19:30
|
As others have said speak to
1. Your Union Rep
and
2. Your GP
And see what they have to say, then take it from there... I'm not medical expert so won't comment on the drug or the condition ... Your beef is with the Company Doctor, not the Transport Manager who is only doing what he has to based on the advice of the Doc.
|
While the OP is signed off as unfit it is a moot point.
The reason he is signed of is the illness, not the side-effects of treatment.
The DVLA guidelines suggest that a "very short, minor illness [depression/anxiety]" need not be notified.
One where there are significant symptoms of mental disturbance (poor concentration, suicidal thoughts, or behavioural changes for example) may lead to a suspension of licence, and for PCV licence entitlement this may be until 6 months of stability have been noted.
There is a huge difference between popping into the car to go to the shops, and spending 8-10 hours behind the wheel of a double-decker threading through an urban environment - especially if the job itself may be a factor in the illness.
Unlike many posters I am a 'medical expert' and the guidance given by the DVLA is very clear - a significant mental illness or impairment requires notification to the DVLA.
End of.
Yes it might seem unfair, but it isn't as bad as if someone takes a seizure - no matter what the reason this is an automatic 12 month exclusion from ALL driving (not just PCV/HGV for which there is a 5 year exclusion - 10 if diagnosed epileptic).
My experience of the DVLA is they do assess all cases individually and they do read the stuff that GPs send them - but they are bound by the law, as is a professional driver.
Fail to inform the DVLA and cause a death or two as a result of poor driving standards and jail may beckon, and a lengthy driving ban.
Bottom line is that the OP should discuss this with his GP - if the GP says he need not inform the DVLA make sure they note that advice in the medical record.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 22 Feb 11 at 21:19
|
There's an emerging theme here I think. Talk to the GP first and take his advice to the company. If that still throws up an insoluble conflict then it might be time to think about informally involving a union.
I took citalopram for about 18 months from November 2008. Certainly felt very odd at first but whether that was an effect of the drug or the disabling work related anxiety that put me on it I cannot tell. If the GP said anything about driving it was to say it wasn't a problem but I'm not doing it professionally; wasn't even driving to the station as I was off sick!!
Mrs B has been on SSRI's for years and I think she has been warned to be careful of side effects until treatment settled down. Suggestion was that these were unlikely and if they occurred were of the same order as might be experienced with a cold cure or otc analgesic such as Syndol. But again she's not driving for a living.
|
Chaps (and chapesses, Pat!)
I value your input greatly, all of you. There is no need for any of you (Zero!) to feel that you have said enough. I know most of you well enough now to accept what you say in the manner in which it was intended.
I will be informing the DVLA as that is what is expected of me. I, as Iffy has said, have been through one tribunal recently. I have no wish to make it a regular occurence. I value my employment higher than 'scoring points'.
|
|
Remember that some of us have nothing to lose from an industrial tribunal as we're retired!
|
Zero,
You have mail to your registered account.
|
I can fully understand you taking that route Badwolf and not feeling like fighting it just at the moment.
I can also understand your fears over DVLA and vocational Drivers licences, when most of the horror stories are true.
My own opinion is that to have refused initially and with a letter from your GP and possibly an appointment with the Company Doctor, your Ops Manager would have refined his request.
I certainly wasn't suggesting pushing for an immediate tribunal situation...there's a lot of middle ground between the situation we have here and that outcome.
Having said that I do understand you not feeling like a fight at the moment.
I wish you well with DVLA, but when the time comes let me know via my email address if you have any problems getting your licence back.
It's a situation the PDA has had dealings with before, and as a vocational licence holder you fit our criteria.
Pat
|
|
Thanks, Pat. Much appreciated.
|
|
Sorry to hear about your depression BW. Reading right through the input on the thread I not that suprised to see that one side-effect of you medication is "Nervousness"! Doesn't seem too useful, in your circumstances. Just a casual observation BTW, not making light of your condition.
|
The commonest side effect of fluoxetine is nausea which usually settles within a week or so of starting. Occasionally people feel it makes them more agitated.
If it causes significant side effects that don't settle quickly it's always worth asking for an alternative.
My view on antidepressants is that (when they work which is 60-70% of the time) they simply treat the symptoms of anxiety and depression - the underlying cause still usually takes many weeks to resolve.
They do not 'cure' depression in the same way as paracetamol doesn't cure a headache - it treats the symptoms until the body repairs itself.
With respect to the OP - try not to get frustrated if you feel you are making slow progress getting back to normal, only be concerned if you feel you are getting worse - the real 'cure' isn't when the depression/anxiety goes - it is when you feel your confidence has returned which usually takes longer.
|
If dealing with a genuine "clinical" or "biological" depression, antidepressants such as Fluoxetine do genuinely treat the underlying cause of that depression, namely an imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain. After a while, the neurotransmitter levels become self regulating again in most cases and the drugs can be withdrawn. However, diagnosing the precise cause of depression is far from an exact science so that the response to drugs can be highly variable.
Personal and professional experience of antidepressant drugs over many years has led me to conclude that they are nothing like as effective as the medical profession would like to think and recovery from depression depends on many therapeutic and non-therapeutic factors.
I now believe that properly administered cognitive therapy, where the patient is trained to alter their thinking to overcome depression, is by far the most effective treatment for depression but it is hard to obtain really good cognitive therapy as the therapist needs to fully understand the depressed mind.
60-70% effectiveness of antidepressant drugs, no way! Maybe 30-40%.
The OP in this case has been harshly treated by his employer and very insensitively handled by the medical practitioner involved. The general feeling, that the involvement of the DVLA in health problems as they relate to driving leads to unsatisfactory outcomes, is in keeping with my own experience.
|
>> The OP in this case has been harshly treated by his employer and very insensitively
>> handled by the medical practitioner involved.
You should have heard what my Operations Manager said to me when I went with my Union rep to explain about all the time off I've had due to not being able to face leaving the house.
"My mum had trouble with that - if you get as bad as she did then you've really got problems, mate."
See what I'm up against...?
|
...See what I'm up against...?...
I do, but when he next tells you to inform the DVLA, he won't mind if you reply: "Get stuffed."
|
Why not firstly ask the DVLA, anonymously, whether depression and this particular medication is notifiable, and if so, whether they would want a GP's certificate as well.
If they say no, then you can go back to the MO and say you can't notify them because it isn't notifiable.
If they say yes, then get a GP's certificate and notify them and take it from there.
|
|
Well, I'm going back to work on Tuesday. The DVLA have written to me to tell me that I can continue to drive whilst their medical advisor considers my case. I'm feeling a little better, but still having days when Black Dog isn't far away. Hopefully I'm not going back too soon...
|
>> Well, I'm going back to work on Tuesday. The DVLA have written to me to
>> tell me that I can continue to drive whilst their medical advisor considers my case.
>> I'm feeling a little better, but still having days when Black Dog isn't far away.
>> Hopefully I'm not going back too soon...
>>
My darkest days were 10 years ago, and that black dog keeps sniffing around from time to time...
Its very hard to give advice/comment partly because each persons illness is different, but I find keeping well away from booze is very important when feeling even slightly down - I haven't had a mouthful since Xmas....
In my dark times thinking of the hole I would leave behind and the feeling my family and friends would have have helped me on the way back up..
Its very hard to put into words, the feelings that go through your mind... I really really hope things are on the way up for you - NOBODY can know exactly how you feel.
Good luck.
|
|
I agree wholeheartedly with ST - the best tip I can give is to take is the exercise that Black Dog now and again. Fresh air works wonders.
|
Good to hear you're back at work this week Badwolf, I'm sure that in itself, will help the depression.
I see that DVLA are being contrary as usual in allowing you to drive a bus load of people about for probably 3 months while they consider your case. Don't be surprised if they decide after all that you can't drive and refuse to listen to reason about you being perfectly safe for the last three months.
It's the way they work and mess with people's lives.
Having said that, I really do hope this doesn't happen in your case, but is the reason I advised not telling them in the first place.
Pat
|
Bus and lorry drivers crash.
People can die.
It's more likely if they are seriously mentally unwell.
Same goes for epileptics.
The law is how it is for a reason.
Sometimes those reasons are inconvenient - that's life.
|
I agree with that...what I don't agree with is the way DVLA handles the situation.
I absolutely fail to see 'the reason' for them to allow it to be this way.
How can the justify stating that Badwolf can go back to work, if in time they may consider it isn't?
Have you any idea what a decision like this can have on a persons depression?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 13 Mar 11 at 16:59
|
They get evidence, they decide what course to take with said evidence.
From whatever Badwolf has told them already they have decided not to revoke his licence at the current time.
Imagine if he was an airline pilot - what would your advice be then?
|
My advice would be, as it was in my original post on the matter, to follow the airline pilots controlling body's own guidelines on the issue.
If that published advice was that it didn't need reporting, then I wouldn't have done so, or been pressurised to by my employer.
DVLA have a long history of sitting on the fence as regards peoples rights to hold a vocational driving licence, and to allow them to use it, while considering if it should be revoked, it's simply not good enough.
More so in Badwolfs case where his cargo is real live people, which makes the decision as critical as that in your scenario.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 13 Mar 11 at 17:19
|
"DVLA have a long history of sitting on the fence as regards peoples rights to hold a vocational driving licence, and to allow them to use it, while considering if it should be revoked, it's simply not good enough."
Its not so much they they sit on the fence, its that if you hold a driving licence the DVLA do not actually have the right to arbitrarily withdraw that entitlement without full consideration of the medical reports. In view of the impact that loss of a driving licence can have on someones life this procedure takes some time. .
During the period it takes the DVLA to arrive at a decision your own doctor should advise as to whether he think you are fit to drive.
|
I've hesitated before writing this and I apologise if it seems inappropriate.
I am a fellow-sufferer. There have been two periods in my life when I have been diagnosed with clinical depresssion; at the moment I am working through another major crisis, having over the past 15 months consulted my GP, tried two anti-depressants and counselling and rejected all three.
The drugs produced side effects that I could not cope with (They were not the kind Badwolf seems to have encountered, by the way, but other well-known issues.) The counselling made me feel very uncomfortable.
At the moment I am working through a Cognitive Behavioural Therapy program online. I am aware of two such programs: eCouch ( ecouch.anu.edu.au/welcome ) and the one I'm with, MoodGym ( www.moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome ). So far, I've found it very helpful, though it's possible that starting it has coincided with an upturn in my condition that might have happened anyway, as a result of changes I have made to my life myself.
I'm mentioning this purely in case there's someone reading this who is unaware of this type of alternative to other, better known treatments.
Links edited so that they now work. The closed bracket right at the end was previously preventing it
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 14 Mar 11 at 01:18
|
>> I've hesitated before writing this and I apologise if it seems inappropriate.
Not at all, Chris. Wholly appropriate. Without wishing to sound patronising, your post was thoughtful, considered and certainly helpful, to me at least.
Thank you for posting the links to the CBT sites, I shall certainly take a look.
I'm not sure if I'm having a 'wobble' but I'm very apprehensive about going back to work. I'm absolutely sure that I'll be fine but I do feel that my confidence has taken a bit of a knock. And, like I mentioned before, I'm a little worried that I'm going back too soon.
>>The counselling made me feel very uncomfortable.
Me too. I don't know whether that was due to the counsellor's technique of saying absolutely nothing though.
I hope that your upturn is long-lived. Black Dog needs to be sent to his kennel...
|
Depression - DVLA Notifiable Condition. - Zero
