The Audi A7 that surprised me the other day got me thinking. Audi already has its not-much-smaller A5, BMW has the curious but (to me) appealing 5 GT and, er, Ford has the Mondeo.
So far that's it but in recent years, others - notably Saab - have followed where the Germans have led. Big hatchbacks are ideal for many purposes, but we've been persuaded that a saloon or estate is more 'prestigious'. But unless you routinely carry wardrobes, dogs or sheep, a hatch holds just as much real luggage as an estate (and I once brought home a sideboard in my Saab 900), while being nicer in everyday use and more secure without having to fiddle with a roller blind -and, of course, much easier to load than a saloon. Put me down for a Volvo S80 Tourer, please - but do make sure it has a rear wiper. Anyone else?
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Most estate versions of hatchbacks have bigger boots... The saloon and estate versions tend to have a longer rear overhang... One advantage the hatch has over an estate is that the rear windscreen doesn't tend to get as mucky, though...
That all relates to small and middle sized cars, though, can't say I've ever looked at the higher end of the market! ;-)
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 10:09
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Estates tend to have a flatter floor and lower loading lip. Essential for doggies, and much easier to get stuff in and out of.
They also have expensive rear wiper blades! grrrr
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Only at the Golf and Focus end of the market, Hobby. A Mondeo hatch is much the same length as the estate, isn't it?
Both the big Audi hatches have more than a metre of rear overhang - crucial to me as it means cricket bags will fit lengthways in the boot.
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I did say I'd only looked at the middle and small end of the market... A quick look at the Carpages site shows that the Mondeo hatch is 528l and the estate 542l up to window cill level, so not a vast difference, but it does depend on what you carry! Insignia is 530 vs 540!
I have noticed at the top end they are sold less as estates and more as "tourers" (or some other silly name!) and the emphasis seems to be on style rather than capacity... Volvo used to have proper big estates, but just look at them now...
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Perhaps this happened, hobby, since the introduction of MPVs. People who need big load carrying capacity may well favour those nowadays, meaning there's more sales to be had of styish tourers for occasional weekend-away type stuff than full size estates, whose sales are being eaten by MPVs.
Personally, I'd still far rather a proper estate than either a tourer or an MPV, but needs dictate an MPV at the moment (for number and size of seats).
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Last time I looked at this was 18 years ago and the cars were Citroen BX hatch or estate. We ran the former and changed to the latter after arrival of our first bundle of joy!!
Situation pretty much as hobby & Zeddo describe. The estate had the same wheelbase as the hatch but longer rear overhang meant the boot was about 6 inches deeper & had no lip. Meant the pushchair could just be rolled in fore/aft instead of a back wrenching manoeuvre to stow it transversly. Other stuff went in alongside it instead of on top so it came out easily at stops.
The hatch's rear screen was self clearing above 30 but the estate needed interval wip all the time on a wet motorway.
It was a great car; sometimes wish I'd held onto it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 10:27
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We always had an estate in the family fleet, when we retired we dropped to one car, (the penny soon dropped that we were only using one at a time). That car was a Focus, the kids have MPV type cars as they have young familys. I missed the versatility of an estate so replaced the Focus with the Ceed estate, partly because the Ceed hatchback has a marginally smaller boot than the Focus and occasionally we found the Focus a bit tight for space.
I am sure Zero will be overjoyed that as my Ceed is European designed it has a standard, easily available Bosch rear wiper blade, :-)
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>> I am sure Zero will be overjoyed that as my Ceed is European designed it
>> has a standard, easily available Bosch rear wiper blade, :-)
I have a possible solution. Watch this space.
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>> I have a possible solution. Watch this space.
Weld on a ceed arm end? :-)
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Give the Lancer to charity and buy a Cee'd?
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Think you mean a museum :-)
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I'll probably get a big hatchback in one or two cars time. For now we carry too much stuff of a type where the squared off low load height & space of a roomy tourer is helpful. Dog, deflated inflatable boat, outboard, mower, timber etc all goes in with ease.
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Estates are men's cars. Saloons are boring men's cars and hatchbacks are girl's cars unless they're SUVs in which case they swing both ways.
So there.
Oh and MPVs are just rubbish. I've had three so I know.
So there.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 18:33
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That confirms it, I always wondered why I prefer estate cars. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 18:35
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Manly grunt of agreement with the erstwhile matelot...
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>> Estates are men's cars. Saloons are boring men's cars and hatchbacks are girl's cars unless
>> they're SUVs in which case they swing both ways.
snip
Estates are junior versions of a hearse. Ugly and a constant reminder of death.
Saloons are for people who don't need to get their hands dirty.
Hatchbacks are the practical man's car who can have the best of both worlds - style and practicality.
Coupes are for cads and bounders.
SUVs are for posey wannabe types (if they live in towns), or a semi-necessity (for country dwellers).
Tiny convertables are for hairdressers.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 17 Feb 11 at 00:44
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Booted saloons round here have FAR more luggage space than their hatch equivalents. More secure too. Compare the Toyota Corolla hatch v. the 3-box saloon variant. And I'd bet that the Mondeo saloon has more useable space than the 5-door hatch with its sloping rear window?
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Mondeo saloon...wozzat then? It should have more room than the hatch (of the estate, for that matter) because it's longer, but you'll have to find one first. Ford seems to have quietly dropped it in the UK, presumably because prestige-hungry big saloon buyers don't want a Ford.
But big saloons aren't really my point: there are plenty out there for people who want them. What I'm saying is that I like estate cars in general but that a big hatch has a lot to commend it. In particular, while it may not have the physical security of a saloon car's boot, anything in a hatchback's boot is discreetly invisible. An estate, on the other hand, requires a roller cover, which is fiddly and curiously ostentatious - leaving it closed draws attention to the car and suggests it has something worth hiding.
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>> a big hatch has a lot to commend it. In particular, while it may not
>> have the physical security of a saloon car's boot, anything in a hatchback's boot is
>> discreetly invisible. An estate, on the other hand, requires a roller cover, which is fiddly
>> and curiously ostentatious - leaving it closed draws attention to the car and suggests it
>> has something worth hiding.
>>
Excellent points, WDB!
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>> Booted saloons round here have FAR more luggage space than their hatch equivalents.
You may be lucky in that respect, but here in the UK booted saloons are far less practical than a hatchback. The boot may be a tad larger in some cases, but with a hatchback you can always remove the parcel shelf to create a big, wide opening. With a saloon, you are stuck with the fact that the boot lid limits the height of objects that you can carry.
I love the looks of a saloon, and wish that my personal circumstances meant that I could have one - but I've lost count of the number of times when I've had to carry stuff that I just know I could never get in a saloon.
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>> Oh and MPVs are just rubbish. I've had three so I know.
>>
What? Even MPVs on the same platform as a hallowed Mondeo, like my S-Max?
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Could this be the S80 Tourer - or more likely C80 - I was wishing for?
mobilemedia.volvocars.com/global/enhanced/en-gb/Newsroom/Images.aspx
Considering how visually similar the eventual production S60 was to the exhibition car, this might only need proper rear doors, a more normal interior and a less space-stealing rear roofline. I'll have one - in that colour too, please.
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I've just received an emailed Volvo newsletter, which they tell me was sent because I signed up to it.
I didn't.
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Ah, sorry, I'll try again later from a proper PC. Meanwhile, you can google "Volvo Concept You", which is what I did to find that page.
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Erm...a closer look at one of those pictures suggests it's not a hatchback after all, just a short-tailed, XJ-ish saloon. I suppose those big, individual rear seats don't really look designed to fold. Still, what a let-down. BAW-RING!
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Im glad i bought a Vectra Hatchback and moved away from the Astra, on wednesday the seats are going down for the fridge freezer to go in , since i have had this 18 months it's been a good work horse for the things most wouldn't dare put in a car, there's been bricks, stone, sand cement, a bath, wood posts, it's a car to me which is a tool.
Well done vauxhall.!!
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I have a small hatchback Yaris which has carried a fridge freezer.. and then a tumble drier.
How big is a BIG hatchback? Can it carry a horse? Or a cow or something useful like a double bed.?
Otherwise it's just a bigger car capable of no more and costing more to run..
A triumph of marketing over function.
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Stop faffing about and get a proper estate ! Men's cars estates...
:-)
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What an extraordinary assertion, Madf! Are you seriously suggesting that one size fits all? My family of four would not fit into a Yaris - I know because we've had one as a 'courtesy' car from a Toyota dealer. I thought it was abominable, and I won't repeat Mrs Beest's opinion in full; 'biscuit' and 'tin' were the more forum-friendly words she used.
In fairness to the Yaris, it's no worse than the Colt or the Fiesta, the other tiny tubs we've had in recent memory. And yes, of course we'd cope somehow with one if it was all there was. I'm sure I'm as susceptible to marketing as the next man insists he's not, but a car with enough space is nicer to travel in than one without, and marketing has nothing to do with that.
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There's no substitute for space.
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I don't care. I have one of each, saloon, hatch and estate. I can't get much in the saloon, mebbe a couple of cases, but there's always the back seat. Hardly ever lift the back door on the hatch unless SWM does the shopping without me.
Normally use the estate for the big shop. Proper door, hinged on the offside by the Japs.
I like the higher driving position of the 4WD but it ain't really needed round here unless the caravan gets bogged down on a field...and it hasn't yet.
The best load-carrier I had was an '83 Nissan Prairie. Low floor, very flat. High roof.
Got a complete BSA Bantam in once by the easy removal of the back seat and putting the front n/s seat full forward. No ' B ' posts, sliding back doors and a good towcar as well. Don't see 'em around now.
Have what suits you........we all have differing needs.
Ted
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Absolutely, Ted - horses for courses.
At home I much prefer an estate: my Octavia estate is little longer than the hatch but has more space and is easier to see out of. And it's more in demand so holds its value better.
But as NZ Nick reminds us, with a Corolla-sized car the saloon has a much bigger boot. When we hire a car on holiday in S. Africa we usually get a Corolla or Nissan Tiida saloon - boring to drive but the boot easily holds our suitcases and hand baggage. A couple of times we've had a VW Polo Classic (= SEAT Cordoba) - just as much room in the boot and good to drive as well. I'm not sure they are still made.
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Does anyone know where an estate begins and a hatch ends.......what's the difference ?
It used to be easier to differentiate.......estates were usually derived from saloons, even going back eons to the pre-war ' shooting brake ' era. Then, probably '60s onward, hatches came into being...some even spawning saloons...Orion, Jetta, etc.
So, what's the difference now, SWM's Note...is it a hatch or an estate ? The door is almost vertical, like any Volvo estate. The floor inside the back is flat, the seat folds and can even be rolled forward a few inches to give more ' boot ' space whilst still carrying rear seat passengers.
I'm sure the answer is going to be somewhat blurred around the edges !
Ted
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For starters I'd suggest the rigid 'parcel shelf' as the mark of a hatchback. An estate has one of those fiddly roller blinds or, in the old days, nothing at all.
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WDB
I agree. but interior space and ease of parking in Multi storey car parks are often not synonymous....
( I smile when I see estates parked in them .. nose pointing out asking to be hit)
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>> An estate has one of those fiddly roller blinds
The Merc, when you press the automatic tailgate lifter thingy, also lifts the roller blind up out of the way at the same time. That's cool too. It also has a built in dog guard in the roller blind doofer which you can pull up. That's kinda neat as well...
Estates rule OK !
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And just to muddy the waters, there is the "Shooting Brake", like this stunner from Mercedes.
tinyurl.com/6ebsoco
There's something about Mercedes estate cars. They are the only estate cars that I like the look of.
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There's something about that Mercedes estate car (and all Sportwagons, Tourers and the like are estate cars) that makes it look like a dachshund having a, hmm, private moment. The CLS saloon is bad enough but that's revolting.
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>> And just to muddy the waters, there is the "Shooting Brake", like this stunner from
>> Mercedes.
Inspired by the Ssangyong Rodius, by the look of it.
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>> Inspired by the Ssangyong Rodius, by the look of it.
It's a hearse that's melted in the sun.
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Gosh, Humph!
The last hatchback we had (a 2000 Skoda Fabia) accomplished that with two pieces of string. One eventually broke, and the remaining one did the job on its own. Does your estate have a redundant system to match that?
}:---D
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Electric string. German electric string what's more...
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Hatchbacks usually look like Quasimodo. Estates are a much more elegant and gentlemanly configuration. Hatchbacks have horrid tippy uppy rattly parcel shelves. Who in all civilisation wants to put a parcel there? Don't get me started on saloons...
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Don't get me started on saloons...
Saloons? Not a big fan of them but I would have thought them more gentlemanly than estates. Estates are for active types with muddy salomons and half a weeks stubble. Anyway, gentlemen are a fast disappearing breed, along with handle bar moustaches and tweed jackets. Not sure if that's a good thing.
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Saloons are fast disappearing. Might be a reason for that as in they're not much use...
:-)
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>> Hatchbacks usually look like Quasimodo.
A tad harsh, but I agree that most of them won't win any beauty competitions.
>> Estates are a much more elegant and gentlemanly configuration.
Estates look like hearses, mostly. Even worse than hatchbacks.
Come on. You are not seriously telling me that any estate cars is as elegant as the Aston Martin Vantage Hatchback? ;-)
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>> Come on. You are not seriously telling me that any estate cars is as elegant
>> as the Aston Martin Vantage Hatchback? ;-)
>>
>>
My Ceed, and Zeros Lancer for two. Well my Ceed anyway. :-)
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>>
>> My Ceed, and Zeros Lancer for two. Well my Ceed anyway. :-)
>>
Love really is blind! :-) ;-)
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>> Love really is blind! :-) ;-)
>>
I upset a few people on another forum who were going on about "loving" their cars, I reminded them that a car is only some bashed out sheet steel with some oily bits and a few seats. :-)
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>> >> Love really is blind! :-) ;-)
>> >>
>>
>> I upset a few people on another forum who were going on about "loving" their
>> cars, I reminded them that a car is only some bashed out sheet steel with
>> some oily bits and a few seats. :-)
>>
You old romantic you !
I suppose you could take that to the extreme and apply it to humans. That model on the catwalk. What's to get worked up about ? A bag of water with a few bones and some offal. :-)
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>> That
>> model on the catwalk. What's to get worked up about ? A bag of water
>> with a few bones and some offal. :-)
a lot of them are mostly bones though
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Ah, but if the current 'E' is the same as the previous generation, then the blind is retracted and returned by a motor. That's a significant improvement on the BMW 5 series touring where the roller blind lifts when the boot opens but doesn't return when it's closed, leading to the irritating procedure of close boot, open driver's door, sit down, close door, check rear view mirror, open door, open boot, pull down roller blind, close boot, sit down... ;-)
Last edited by: PeterS on Wed 12 Oct 11 at 21:35
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Big hatchback revival: more to come? - hobby
