My car stood idle for nearly a week recently, which is unusual as it's normally used most days.
When I started it, there was the unmistakeable sound of oil starvation rattle for a few seconds.
A lot more oil had drained into the sump than happens overnight.
This made me think about oil changes.
Warm the car and drop the oil, everyone does that.
But it seems to me you might get more oil out if you left the car standing for a few days and did the change cold.
The CC3 is a diesel, and the oil is fairly watery hot or cold, so I'm not sure viscosity is a big issue here.
Any thoughts?
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I would go for hot and left to stand for about 15 minutes to get a good fast flush out. If it is left to stand for days suspended crap could settle out and stay in the sump when drained.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 9 Feb 11 at 18:57
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Agree with Navy and remove the oil filter early too.
Purely out of interest as we all have our rigid views on oil change intervals, what sort of service mileage are you running and what oil's in the car.
Be nice to know which muck (that makes it rattle) to avoid..:-)
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...what sort of service mileage are you running and what oil's in the car...
Ford say 12,500miles, but I do an extra intermediate change using my Pela vacuum sucker.
Don't bother with the filter.
I extracted 5litres last time, which the handbook says is the capacity, not including the filter.
As regards the oil, it's a Ford built within the last 30 years, so it's 5w-30.
I think I used Halfords own brand last time, which was on offer for about £25 with a 'free' screwdriver set which I've added to the caravan toolkit.
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>> As regards the oil, it's a Ford built within the last 30 years, so it's
>> 5w-30.
>>
Ford changed their oil spec in 2006 (I think) and now specify 5W/30 full synthetic for post 06 (I think) cars.
I could get 5L out of my Focus with a Pela (no filter change).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 9 Feb 11 at 19:34
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Iffy, many years ago i was told in no uncertain terms by a real Toyota mechanic (used to strip, prepare and overland rally Landcruisers, so knew a thing or two) to drain the censored muck that was in my Diesel's sump and put some proper oil in, it worked, the rattly death sounding engine i took in for him to listen to went on for many years sounding as sweet as can be, a Eureka moment in my home mechanic life that, the stuff i'd put in had all the relevant SAE/C numbers but not the quality.
I'd changed the oil a thousand miles before with a very well known brand, not the name you put in i hasten to add, but might be food for thought for you.
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...put some proper oil in...
gb,
I'm afraid I can't crack the code.
What are you recommending as proper oil?
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>> I'm afraid I can't crack the code.
>> What are you recommending as proper oil?
Not suggesting what you've got in there isn't ok Iffy, just relating my experience of hearing alarming engine sounds in a recently serviced Diesel, which vanished forever once i'd got rid of the regular commonly available aftermarket brand i'd put in and replaced with seemingly superior oil...which i have continued to buy, several brands spring to mind.
Just thought it might be something for you to keep in mind when you buy your next batch.
Interestingly, my Toyota dealer mech's don't advise using 5W 30 in the pick up, even though it's one of the recommended indeed preferred grade, they've told me it's likely to make the engine rattly...which my limited knowledge suggests to me is not a good thing.
Toyota handbook gives a range of oil viscosities that can be used, and a minimum C rating, which i exceed as CF is now quite an old rating, i actually use Millers XFD 5W40 Full synthetic Diesel specific oil with a CH4/C14 rating at present..Toyota dealer also puts it in for me at service time, i provide it as i buy bulk.
The engine runs quieter than on the normal dealer supplied which the tell me is 10W 40 semi, so incidentally does the C2..SWM remarked when she next used it after i slipped a swift change in a couple of weeks ago..again it's in the handbook as within spec, even with the FAP.
I'm happy to buy other makes reputed to be good and recommended in the sorts of discussions you'd take notice of...Valvoline, Fuchs (Silkolene) are two that come to mind, but some main dealers notably Vauxhall seem to offer high quality oils at bargain prices especially if you can buy 20 litres or more.
Sorry i've gone into waffle mode again...but i always change the filter if i'm doing the oil, so cheap it seems a shame not to.
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Has it got hydraulic tappets? Maybe it was one or more of them you heard chattering.
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...Maybe it was one or more of them you heard chattering...
Could be.
It's parked on a slope, which might have made it worse...
...or better. :)
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The Escort had its oil changed 2,000 miles ago, with Castrol Magnatec to Ford Zetec A1 spec. Currently it sits around for several days at a time. It makes a hydraulic tappet-y noise for about 10 revolutions of the engine when starting from stone cold, but doesn't seem to suffer any ill effects from it.
One of my neighbours, by contrast, starts his Megane with his foot to the floor every morning, and gives it a good bootful at night when he switches it off. I wonder if he's actually *trying* to kill it?
In answer to your question, I would think that 95% of the oil volume changed is the best you could reasonably hope for, whether hot or cold, left for minutes or days. A better way to flush more contaminants out would be to change the oil twice, a day apart - this would only leave 5% of the 5% of the dirty oil in there, IYSWIM. Not worth doing IMO, otherwise we'd all do it.
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My car sounds quite clattery in the morning for the first minute so, no hyrdraulic tappets here but it does have a no fangled over head cam well, new fangled 50 years ago!
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Its quite normal for hydraulic tappets to rattle for a few seconds after a cold start.
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Castrol Magnatec - when I last looked - appeared to be a triumph of marketing over substance....Poor vfm I thought.
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I'm one of those OCD/ADD/ADHD types that listen *intently* to his engine every time its starts from cold :)
Car is usually garaged, but if I leave it outside (on a slope) it 'Rattles' from cold start up.
Car was last serviced in June by The Pain Dealer so not due again til flaming June.
I did buy 4 ltrs of Magnatec to stick in it the other week but I found that for some peculiar reason its more comfortable to be in a centrally heated home than laying on a cold concrete floor.
I'm not a Pela man btw.
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Oil last changed 12k miles/10 months ago using Halfords Semi Synth.
When I check the oil I always drop a bit on my finger, to see the colour/opacity and how well it spreads and fluid it is.
It needs changing now.
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I'm surprised at how watery the oil is in the CC3 even after a few thousand miles.
I reckon 12,500 miles is pushing it, although there's bound to be lots of Fords on the road running well enough on that interval.
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Watery is good. You need it to spread and circulate easily. Thick and gooey is not.
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...Thick and gooey is not....
True, but I think the oil in my diesel is a lot more watery than you would find in a similar car with a petrol engine.
It also turns black as pitch almost instantly, which I know diesels do, but I was brought up on being able to judge the cleanliness of the oil.
You can't do that with a diesel, or if you did, you would be changing it every week.
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>> True, but I think the oil in my diesel is a lot more watery than
>> you would find in a similar car with a petrol engine.
>>
I think that your thinking that is just a product of your fertile imagination. ;-)
Myth.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 10:14
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...Myth...
I've not done a viscosity test, but the oil in my diesel car looked and felt thinner to me than the oil in mother's hatchback when I last dipped it for her.
It is also thinner than the oil in the cars I used to service at the garage many years ago, although we put 20/50 multigrade in everything back then.
If you came across a car without any history, one of the way of judging if it needed a service was to dip the oil and feel a few drops between thumb and forefinger.
As I said, no point trying that with a modern diesel, since it feels like water after a few hundred miles, and still feels much the same 5,000miles later.
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>> I've not done a viscosity test, but the oil in my diesel car looked and
>> felt thinner to me than the oil in mother's hatchback when I last dipped it
>> for her.
>>
A given viscosity oil (say, 5W30) should feel the same "thinness" whether it is marked for use in "diesel" or "petrol" engines.
If you are comparing 5W30 in a diesel with a 20W50 in a petrol, it is not like with like.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 10:38
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>> Thick and gooey....
Duckhams oil a few years ago, IIRC.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 10:35
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Not relevant to today's engines, but the J.A.P. engine in my Morgan three wheeler gets fed with nice sticky 50 grade oil - about 20 to 30 drips in the sight gauge per minute.
It's a total loss dry sump system and what comes out appears to flow nearer to 30 weight. Certainly had the stuffing knocked out of it by the bearings. The environmentalists among you will be pleased to hear that the used oil is no longer discharged on the road as designed, but caught in a nifty catch tank fitted with a tap so I can dispose of the contents at the council tip.
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...but the J.A.P. engine in my Morgan three wheeler...
I read somewhere the driver leans out whilst going along and uses an engineer's can to oil the rocker gear/pushrods.
Or is that just one of those made-up stories?
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>>The environmentalists among you will be pleased to hear that the used oil is no longer discharged on the road as designed
What about the stuff directed to the sliding pillars? Is most of that over the wheels and mudguards, or is that only later models with a pressurised system? ;>)
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>> Not relevant to today's engines, but the J.A.P. engine in my Morgan three wheeler gets
>> fed with nice sticky 50 grade oil
I use same in both old Harleys; Morris Elite is the preferred brand. Like you I find it comes out thinner than it went in!
The old side-valve has a drip-feed to the primary chain, which causes it to mark its territory when parked. The usual reply to well-meaning people who point out the "leak" is that it serves as a warning; when it stops leaking it's time to top it up.
Second nature to anyone who's owned British bikes of course! ;-)
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Diesels, especially with DPF, can suffer fuel dilution, where diesel gets into the sump oil.
Over time engine oil will become thinner rather than thicker by virtue of the molecules being mashed up.
Combine fuel dilution (does happen on petrol cars but not to the same degree as DPF diesels) and mileage and I can imagine a reduction in oil viscosity would be evident.
Remember, though, a thinner oil means a greater oil flow around the engine which will reduce hot-spots. Assuming the oil film is maintained of course...
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>> Diesels, especially with DPF, can suffer fuel dilution, where diesel gets into the sump oil.
>>
But mythology also says that that is more than countered by the soot contamination.
Last edited by: John H on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 14:11
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>>I read somewhere the driver leans out whilst going along and uses an engineer's can to oil the rocker gear/pushrods.
>>
Can't reach, arms not long enough! Rocker gear and valve guides though really are oiled by me with oil can. Oil for can use though is anything remotely car, ie mutigrade, monograde, diesel oil. Tend to get given odd bits of oil so use that. Usually oiled before I start, at destination and back at home.
A happy Morgan trike driver is a bit like a happy motorcyclist, with fly stained teeth but with added oil stains!
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Thu 10 Feb 11 at 15:51
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Going back to brands, I've just bought five litres of Halfords part synthetic for the Astra's first oil change while it's in my keep. I've always found Halfords own brand stuff to be ok and good value, £27.65 for oil, filter and new plug and washer.
I never exceed 6000 on the same oil.
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RR, as hinted at by GB above, from the Vauxhall dealer you can get good oil at a good price for your Vauxhall - especially if you buy in 20 litre quantity. GM's Dexos 2 oil meets quite a number of modern specs, including MB229.51 - which means you can use it in modern Mb diesels with a DPF.
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>> RR, as hinted at by GB above, from the Vauxhall dealer you can get good
>> oil at a good price for your Vauxhall - especially if you buy in 20
>> litre quantity.
Really good prices are available from a VX parts dept with a Trade Club card otherwise eBay is the best place for 5W/30 fully synthetic GM oil or 10W/40 semi synth. Autovaux also do GM oil at good prices.
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>> Really good prices are available from a VX parts dept with a Trade Club card
>>
What are the requirements to qualify for a trade Club card? How/where do you apply for one?
Last edited by: John H on Mon 14 Feb 11 at 10:07
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...Can't reach, arms not long enough!...
We'll have to get you a longer spout. :)
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There are cheap oil filters around that don't have proper non-return valves. A filter with a nrv will keep the oil-ways full of oil even after indefinite standing, so there will always be virtually instant oil pressure.
You can tell if your filter is a good one when you change it. If you get a gush of oil from the block, it means the nrv was working. If all you get is the can full of oil, then it's not the proper one.
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Depends on your engine. If the filter inlet is at the top, ie Ford crossflow of mk1 & 2 Escorts (and my 4/4 Morgan) then you don't need a valve. But if the inlet is at the side (Ford Pinto) or at the bottom, then you do. Check OE filter if unsure.
Oh in response to the writer who remarked on oil on the sliding pillars. All three wheelers are grease, I've converted my 4/4 from oil to grease and in any event, if too much oil is used it gets on the brakes. Not a terribly good idea!
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>> If the filter inlet is at the top, ie Ford crossflow
>> of mk1 & 2 Escorts (and my 4/4 Morgan) then you don't need a valve.
>>
>>
I don't see that. I don't just mean oil may siphon out of the filter itself, I mean the valve has to maintain the head of oil above the filter, in the block, cylinder head and valve gear, and not run back down when the pump stops.
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AFAIK, no engine does that! Certainly on the crossflow, the head is fed by the oil gallery above the filter and that also feeds everything else. So there are lots of ways for oil to flow back and it does. With a engine that has stood, the oil from everywhere has drained, back, but the filter remains full. So a non return valve would just be a restriction to normal flow and would make no difference to a stopped engine.
I've used the crossflow as an example as I know the engine and the oil routing but I don't believe any more modern engine is that different.
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As I understand it, the pump circulates oil through the filter and then along lots of galleries and feed pipes etc until it encounters various bearings. These represent a restriction on the flow, which is why the pressure builds up. No oil ever returns from the outward-bound pressure side of the circuit unless there is a leak, oil only returns, under gravity, after it has been forced through the various bearings.
So when the engine stops, the pressure will gradually die away as oil continues to be forced through the bearings, but the pressure-side oilways will still be full of oil. If there is no non-return valve then that oil will slowly drain back to the filter, leaving empty oilways that will have to be re-filled next time the engine starts. But if there is a non-return valve then the oilways stay full of oil.
That appears to be how my Volvo engine works, anyway. If I fit a cheap filter, unscrewing it merely releases a bit of spilled oil from the angled filter. But with a proper filter with a non-return valve I remove the filter and oil continues to gush from the port in the block, far more than merely the volume of the filter. Is this not oil from the upper regions of the engine oilways, previously held there by the nrv?
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>>No oil ever returns from the outward-bound pressure side of the circuit unless there is a leak, oil only returns, under gravity, after it has been forced through the various bearings.
There are at least two mechanisms for oil to return from the high pressure side other than via doing good work in a bearing or jet or hydraulic lifter.
The first, academic, one is the leakage flow which occurs from the high side of the oil pump to the low side - this effectively reduces the efficiency of the pump, but is very difficult to reduce without making the pumps much more expensive. When designing gear type oil pumps, especially when efficiency or metering is important, it's important to estimate the volume which leaks back via the volume between the meshing gears.
The second one is via the oil pressure relief valve where oil may return directly to the sump when the oil pressure is too high, and the oil is thick. In this situation, you can get the odd situation of having very high oil pressure, but, inadequate oil flow at the bearings.
One of the misunderstood things about hydrodynamic engine bearings is that they require oil flow to work - they don't rely on the supply pressure to work - they will work if there is sufficient oil there with no oil pressure forcing the oil into the bearing. We use oil pressure as a proxy measurement - we assume if there is sufficient pressure that there must be sufficient flow. Wear in a bearing means that the bearing requires higher and higher rates of oil flow - when this demand outstrips the pump's ability to supply, the oil pressure drops.
There is usually another releif valve across the oil filter - when the filter becomes blocked and the pressure drop across the filter rises, a relief valve opens which allows oil to bypass what is normally a full flow filter - yes, unfiltered oil gets into the engine, but, unfiltered oil is much better than none!
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I'm guessing your engine is a bit more advanced. The crossflow gallery feeds everything with oil so at cessation of supply, will carry on till the pressure has gone then allow drain down from the head supply to the lowest point, the crank bearings.
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Changed my engine oil today, no big deal I hear you say but - I haven't crawled underneath a car since 92!
I drained it out *properly* as I'm no sucker, and I left it to drain for 1 hour, proper job as they say in Cornwall.
I refilled it with Magnatec semi-syn, yes I know there are better oils out there but I've always got on OK with Castrol.
Oh what joy it is to get my hands dirty again and quite pleased in the knowledge that I've saved myself a few Shekels as well.
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Changed mine today too.
Plenty of plastic sheeting under the bowl that was catching the oil like a good boy, yet still managed to get some on the drive which had to be franticly scrubbed off before Mrs RR got home and started shouting.
Why does it always start blowing a howling gale as soon as you undo the sump plug? And why do plastic sheets immediately tip upside down as they blow from under the car?
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>>yet still managed to get some on the drive which had to be franticly scrubbed off before Mrs RR got home<<
I hardly got so much as one drop on the floor - more luck than judgment though as I've never changed the oil on the Almera myself before, and I've had it 4 years now - piece of cake to do mind, I could have actually managed to do it without jacking the car up and removing a wheel (made it easier though, innit)
I reckon it's the first time that sump plug has been orf since the car left Sunderland!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 13 Feb 11 at 03:01
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>>Fit a new washer Perro?<<
(hehe!) That's why I reckon the sump plug has never been orf - it looked like the original (to me)
They always charge me for one of course.
I didn't change the filter btw (shock, horror, aghast!), the car only does about 8000 miles pa and the only reason I changed the oil is because most engine wear takes place upon cold starting, and I want all them intelligent molecules up the top end when I turn the key (I believe all that bumph)
I even used to use Molyslip years ago with Castrol GTX 20w50 :)
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>> I didn't change the filter btw (shock, horror, aghast!), the car only does about 8000
>> miles pa
She'll be fine D, when the bypass valve opens due to accumulated crud (seeing as the sump hasn't been drained) nice fresh oil will pass now through into those bearings and splash feeds....assuming the oilways are not already furred up like a smokers lungs.
:-))
I'd be having kittens and nightmarish visions of the hell that is your filter...for pete's sake go and get one and bung it on.
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>>I'd be having kittens and nightmarish visions of the hell that is your filter...for pete's sake go and get one and bung it on<<
Shirley if the engine (petrol) has only done 39k miles & is serviced regularly, it should be OK gord?
If there was any doubt whatsoever, I'd nip down to the pain dealer and get one.
Engine sounded sweet this morning btw, but they always do after an oil change :)
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>> Shirley if the engine (petrol) has only done 39k miles & is serviced regularly, it
>> should be OK gord?
And don't call me Shirley..another good un gone.
I'm sure it'll be fine D, i couldn't change the oil without slipping a filter in unless it was a half mileage change of the sort OCD's might briefly consider..;)
By the way i do if possible get a genuine filter, but will also buy what i assume to be good aftermarket...eg Mahle, Mann, Purolator...which i haven't seen for years, are they still available.
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>>By the way i do if possible get a genuine filter, but will also buy what i assume to be good aftermarket...eg Mahle, Mann, Purolator<<
Aye! - I'm with you on that one gordon - stay well away from the likes of TJ, Champion etc.
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- stay well away from the
>> likes of TJ, Champion etc.
Agreed, example...i once got an accessory shop el cheapo fuel filter for a Diesel i had at the time, can't remember which one for the life of me, fitted fuel filter, couldn't prime it no matter what i did.
Took the thing off and on close examination found the stamping round the O ring fitting was malformed, didn't look like damage more like a poor stamping....it would have taken a tube of instant gasket to have got it sealed.
Another valuable lesson learned.
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I had an experience..nay,two, with misformed oil filters.------
Serviced a 3 series Beemer in the 80s, went for a road test and got the oil pressure light on after a while. Pool of oil under the car and a trail, presumably all the way back to the garage.
Had to get a taxi home and go back with the truck.
Filter was tight but obviously leaking. Took it off and the face was well out of true.
Never got any compensation, new filter/oil/engine cleaner/taxi fare, etc so never used that supplier again.
A couple of weeks later, called out by Mondial Assistance to a BMW 316 with same problem.
Filter just the same deformation. Got a new one from a local car shop with a gallon of oil and got them on their way.
If I recall, the filters were both Fram....orange/white boxes.
Must have been the same batch...wonder how many more got used !
Ted
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...If I recall, the filters were both Fram....orange/white boxes...
The second filter might have been overtightened.
A lot of home bodgers did that.
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>> By the way i do if possible get a genuine filter, but will also buy
>> what i assume to be good aftermarket...eg Mahle, Mann, Purolator...which i haven't seen for years,
>> are they still available.
Well, Mann are still available, I use them on the Beemer. I don't know what the name of the oil my mechanic uses but I know it's semi synth bought in bulk from Vauxhall, and I trust him to use decent stuff. Done once a year which is about 6-7000 miles. Occasionally it will rattle on start up but only when it's cold and I can forgive the engine after 158000 miles. The hydraulic tappets must have a bit of wear in them by now.
I have to be careful in car parks though - the thing is so damn quiet that people on foot don't notice I'm behind them until I'm inches from their behinds :)
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>>it will rattle on start up but only when it's cold and I can forgive the engine after 158000 miles<<
I reckon that if you used Magnatec, the rattle on start up would cease.
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>> I reckon that if you used Magnatec, the rattle on start up would cease.
Magnatec is a triumph of marketing over reality.
Anyway threw 3.5 litres of Mobil S2000 Semi synth into the lancer today. And changed the filter. Thats 11,500 miles since the last change. The service manual says 9k or 1 year, but i think 12k max or one year is ok.
The used filter, even with the oil drained out, is much heavier than the new unused filter.
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>> Well, Mann are still available, I use them on the Beemer.
Yep, i get them too from the very useful CAS motor factor group close by, together with pukka aftermarket brakes etc, Eurocarparts and GSF though good are too far away for ease.
Anyone passing through Birmingham will find GSF's main warehouse just over the road from the Jag factory, not half a mile from Jct 5 M6, the chaps on the desk really know their stuff and the parts are good, i often called in there on my last job for parts, plenty of room outside to park too.
Used to get Purolator from Northampton Diesels years ago, good stuff they were (filters and ND) but haven't seen Purolator's stuff for years.
Interesting Ted had the same problem, could have been nasty should the average non mechanical driver carried on regardless.
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An oily question. - Old Navy
