"... the first site in the UK where average speed cameras are installed on a major urban road, according to TfL."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12315512
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Great :).
I am a big fan of average speed cameras, they are a lot fairer than normal GATSO type things.
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84 Cameras !!!!!!
Mind you they're putting the limit UP to 50mph from 40mph so that's something.
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Average speed cameras and cruise control are made for each other. The lane three flyers who slow down for average speed cameras make me :-)))).
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>> The lane three flyers
>> who slow down for average speed cameras make me :-)))).
I see this every day in the 50 mph SPECS stretch on the southbound M3 at J1. It really does make you question the intelligence level of some people.
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>> >> The lane three flyers
>> >> who slow down for average speed cameras make me :-)))).
>>
>> I see this every day in the 50 mph SPECS stretch on the southbound M3
>> at J1. It really does make you question the intelligence level of some people.
Or possibly make you question if the Specs at J1 are actually working or not? I dont think they are at that point.
Why did they install Specs there anyway?
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>> does make you question
It never pays to overestimate comprehension. Some people ( quite a lot of them actually ) simply won't grasp the intended meaning of the word "average" believe it or not.
At one time I was involved in the running of a large chain of high st shops. Like any retail business we used to run clearance and overstock offers. We had 800+ shops so it was possible to experiment with different methods of communication across a fairly useful sample.
An example I recall was the claim we ran on the same product but expressed in different ways to see which created the most demand. We deliberately chose a group of items with a simple to understand original price of £100.
In one control group of shops we promoted them as having 66% off. In the second we said 2/3 off and in the third "Was £100, now £33".
The results were startlingly different. The sales in the third group rocketed overnght. The effect on the second group was noticeable but much less effective and in the "percentage" claim group only slight growth was seen.
On asking the store managers for their take on it they were pretty convinced that most shoppers thought the price was now £66 in the percentage claim group.
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>> In one control group of shops we promoted them as having 66% off. In the
>> second we said 2/3 off and in the third "Was £100, now £33".
>>
>> The results were startlingly different. The sales in the third group rocketed overnght. The effect
>> on the second group was noticeable but much less effective and in the "percentage" claim
>> group only slight growth was seen.
Not so hard to understand. Sales items are real instant impulse buys. If you have to pause, however briefly, to work out what it will cost and how much you save, the impulse has gone. Within that pause of rational thought required for the maths, comes the little tweedling bird of doubt "do i really need it - tweet tweet"
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Quite right, and that's sort of my point re average speed cameras. If you ask people to work something out for themselves they either won't bother or can't. Information has to be pitched at the lowest common denominator of comprension to be at its most effective.
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I dont travel through Specs sections at 50mph indicated.
I travel through specs sections at 55mph GPS max. Which may appear to others as tho I am flying through them.
I am still, however, beginning to doubt if many of these Specs cameras are actually working.
I see a very few sections where the camera area is now being lit by bright lights at night. I dont think the normal weedy IR lights are sufficient to provide an image at night. Nor do I think they have the required computer hardware set up most of the time.
In fact, I think most SPecs cameras are a scam.
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There are those who recognise that if you tuck up tight behind a truck where the Specs are sited that they can't see your ( sorry I mean "their" of course ) number plates...
Highly irresponsible naturally.
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>> Highly irresponsible naturally.
>>
And some who time their overtaking of a truck so they are hidden from the NS gatso by said truck....good use of all available cover i'd say.
As an aside, i use the A414 between Hertford and Harlow nearly every day, there's a 50mph section down there with 2 N/S Gatso's on either carriageway...i'm going through the whole section at 50mph on cruise...why do drivers overtake me at around 60 then brake to 40 for the camera whilst alongside...a smidgen of common sense would tell them i'm not blatting through to get a nick.
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For sale: One bike rack, not half-price or 50 per cent off, but it was £50 and it's now £25.
Watch 'em form a orderly queue.
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Got to be worth a try Iffy.
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>> I am a big fan of average speed cameras, they are a lot fairer than
>> normal GATSO type things.
>>
How do you work that out?
A Gatso is so obvious to the observant driver, they generally don't have to worry about them. To those without observation skills, they have to slow down or eventually lose their licences....which is good for all....the observant can grab a bit more now and again when reasonable and those with no forward vision and are potentially dangerous, have to drive slowly all the time.
Average speed cameras however catch both those groups....safe in the knowledge that group 3 i.e. the totally lawless, driving something unregistered or stolen can carry on as they wish.
In a sliding scale of danger, guess who should be targetted first and who should be left alone.
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>> A Gatso is so obvious to the observant driver, they generally don't have to worry
>> about them. To those without observation skills, they have to slow down
And then speed up again... as such they are only effective for about 100 yds either side of the camera... At least average cameras keep the speed down over the whole section. If you want to keep people from exceeding a speed limit then average cameras are more effective than gatsos.
TBH there's only one definite way of enforcing speed limits and that's an onboard limiter worked by roadside equipment - unless people start to actually obey limits I can see them being introduced, after all the technology is already in existence...
Is that what we want?
Last edited by: hobby on Sun 30 Jan 11 at 09:11
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>> And then speed up again... as such they are only effective for about 100 yds
>> either side of the camera...
That was entirely my point.
They are only placed at accident blackspots...aren't they?
They are often relevant at some times, but not at others. We have a 'catch all' speed limit system. This isn't too bad if it's intelligently thought out and introduced, in conjunction with other intelligent road safety systems e.g. solid white lines. Trouble is nowadays it has been dumbed down the lowest common denominator...
...so the safe speed for a cold, wet, congested morning is the speed limit....and that is not relevant to the sunny, dry, uncongested morning.
Do we really want average cameras everywhere forcing us to drive like automatons? I don't.
The other negative is we now have a generation of drivers who can't think for themselves. They don't 'think for the circumstances', they just plough on regardless, because "I always drive at that speed"...or "Always use that lane"..or can't overtake...or don't notice things.
It's horrifying what the average driver doesn't know that they can't see.
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>> They are only placed at accident blackspots...aren't they?
>>
No... and why should they? They are often placed at spots where the limit *should* be the limit but is often ignored, but just slowing the traffic down for 200 yds is next to useless, but they have to do something, but lots of roads which cross the road would make average cameras useless - Hagley Road in Brum is one example...
>> They are often relevant at some times, but not at others. We have a 'catch
>> all' speed limit system. This isn't too bad if it's intelligently thought out and introduced,
>> in conjunction with other intelligent road safety systems e.g. solid white lines. Trouble is nowadays
>> it has been dumbed down the lowest common denominator...
>>
>> ...so the safe speed for a cold, wet, congested morning is the speed limit....and that
>> is not relevant to the sunny, dry, uncongested morning.
>>
Entirely agree...
>> Do we really want average cameras everywhere forcing us to drive like automatons? I don't.
>>
Neither do I as I've said in the past... but...
>> we now have a generation of drivers who can't think for
>> themselves.
And a league of older drivers who think they know better...
So what are they supposed to do when the new drivers are mainly useless at judgement and the rest are over confident...
Sooner or later we'll get stitched up with some sort of on board speed control and we will only have ourselves to blame...
TBH I find this sort of thread very frustrating, we all know the answer to it, that is to regulate our speed to one which is acceptable for the road and conditions, however there seems to be a majority of drivers who either aren't capable of doing that or just don't want to and the result is cameras which know-one likes... For Pete's sake, Drivers, its YOUR fault the damn things are there, so stop blaming the Police/Council and start behaving sensibly!
Last edited by: hobby on Sun 30 Jan 11 at 16:13
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Our locals started this in December.
100km limit, and 3.4 km between cameras.
586 caught in first month, despite massive media reports of the scheme, highlighting camera locations.
FRIGHTENING that one chap caught at 163 AVERAGE! (101 mph, to you lot who don't speak metric.)
"This person will have to face the music in court. That is license-revoking speed." - Kennith Patrick, department of safety and security.
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Wonder what music they'll actually choose ?
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"Going Down" by The Pretty Reckless?
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>>>"Going Down" by The Pretty Reckless?
Must be a first mention for The Pretty Reckless on here CGN... as opposed to being pretty reckless which has no doubt been mentioned before.
Either you are too young for this place or, like me, need to claim teen children alerted you to them!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LziWnyeKa5Q&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
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Nearly correct - teenage grand-daughter in Canada where I spent some weeks summer
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 2 Feb 11 at 12:14
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>> "... the first site in the UK where average speed cameras are installed on a
>> major urban road, according to TfL."
Well I guess it depends on definition of 'major' & 'urban' but we've had them on the A43 through well built up Northampton for at least five years.
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The A77 has had 30odd miles of average speed cameras for about five years. TFL may like to think they are first but the UK goes further north than Watford.
tinyurl.com/4e4phtj
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 30 Jan 11 at 09:07
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Where does this rubbish that says driving at the speed limit somehow means you have a lower level of driving skill than someone who breaks it? Why does it mean that you must be on the verge of falling asleep? Why does it mean that valuing your license means you cannot also take into account road conditions? Who is it who dreams up these pathetic excuses for going above the limit?
Frankly most major routes in this country are terminally boring, only made interesting if you attempt them at over 100mph or more, so that would seem to be the solution if boredom is really such a problem. Of course its not though.
Its just some poor excuse to attack law abiding drivers rather than the law itself, which penalises you at random, meaning that those who value their license do stick to the imposed limit. Remove the penalties and people will drive faster, simple as.
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>> Where does this rubbish that says driving at the speed limit somehow means you >>have a lower level of driving skill than someone who breaks it?
Who has ever said that?
>>Why does it mean that you must be on the verge of falling asleep? Why does it mean >>that valuing your license means you cannot also take into account road conditions? >>Who is it who dreams up these pathetic excuses for going above the limit?
You are twisting things somewhat and overplaying things to fit your arguement. A long journey at a constant low speed is boring and monotonous, a faster speed can keep your wits up..but..only if you're concentrating properly.
My points, when I post, are to try to highlight the absurdity of speed cameras versus all the other things that go on and are ignored.... The 40mph brigade that do it everywhere, whether in the 30mph limit or on the NSL; the Centre Lane Owners Group who cause frustration and congestion; those that actively prevent others from over taking or flash headlights; the terminally unaware; etc,etc.
All of the above are free to mimse as much as they like, yet an aware driver with their wits about them and who on occasions will break a limit when it's safe to do so..which let's face it with most of our limits nowadays that has become more often, is now going to be subject to average cameras to prevent them from grabbing a bit more when it's safe to do so.
The partial or truly criminal won't be affected, the unaware mimser who mimses all the time won't be affected, the aware driver who always keeps to the limit won't be affected, but the aware driver who drives faster sometimes will be...that's the category I am in..and why i'm moaning. There can't be very many people who drive fast, are not aware and are othwerwise legal..otherwise by now they wouldn't have a licence, would they?
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Actually WP, my problem with your argument is that whilst it might be ok for you (most of the time?) and some others (again most of the time), from what I see the majority of drivers who would take that opportunity to drive faster would be just the ones who we don't want to as they are not "aware", just over confident.
Personally I'd rather have cameras controlling speed and Police Patrol Cars out there to catch bad driving... Now THAT would make a big impact on driving standards...
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>> The partial or truly criminal won't be affected, the unaware mimser who mimses all the
>> time won't be affected, the aware driver who always keeps to the limit won't be
>> affected, but the aware driver who drives faster sometimes will be...that's the category I am
>> in..and why i'm moaning.
No doubt you are right that aware drivers should ideally be able to adapt their driving for the conditions, but there is the issue of practicality.
How can we have a system that is that fine tuned?
It'll be some time before we have a camera that not only measures speed and takes pictures, but also takes account of the road conditions second by second, and can also judge whether the driver is sufficiently aware of what they are doing.
If you are just bemoaning the unfairness, then I agree, but there seems no alternative, except to just have no speed limits at all (or only have tickets issued by the police, following an awareness interview with the driver).
Personally I think average speed cameras are much better than single point cameras. I must admit to being distracted to watching my speedo too much, in areas where I don't know the location of cameras, and I doubt I am the only one.
Very easy to average under 40 over a mile, not so easy to make sure that you never go over 40 for a split second. Maybe I worry too much but the point is, from a safety point of view, so do many others.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 31 Jan 11 at 09:43
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I think speed enforcement, by cameras or humans, is ok. I have a problem with people who get caught speeding. Getting caught shows a general lack of awareness, it goes hand in hand with risk perception.
If you can't see far enough ahead to see you are not going to get snapped, its not safe to speed anyway. If you dont see the camera, or plod in his orange vest, your observation skills are not up to the mark and you are not safe to speed.
In my book, sensible speeding is ok, getting caught isnt.
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My main problem is the holier than thou brigade that think all speeding is a sin, when it plainly isn't. Some is definitely, but it's a time and place thing, combined with experience, knowledge and self restraint. By all means lock up the clown who does a silly speed past a school when the kids are about..but...the biker doing warp factor five up the near empty 'A' road, give him a fine or something, look how hard it is to get people locked up for quite serious offences nowadays.
If I did 130mph plus up a motorway on my motorcycle and got caught, apart from being sacked, i'd be seriously worried about a short (hopefully) jail sentence..yet in reality, the only person at any real risk would be myself and even then it wouldn't necssarily be that great. The driver of a car doing 45mph plus past the school on a wet winter's morning when all the kids are trying to bolt from mummy's car into the school..and are more concerned about the rain than the road..they are at real risk of some serious harm, if not death...the car driver wouldn't be looking at a jail sentence, would they?...what a hypocritical lack of thought goes in to that process then.
The other thing is the myriad of other things going on..i.e. outright criminality such as stealing cars; drink/drug driving; lack of vehicle maintenance;, no insurance; etc, etc..
.. but it's alright, Mr Average is complying with the average speed cameras, that'll sort the country out.
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Its all about how you use the limited resources the Police have, though, WP... Personally I'd rather have the average cameras to keep people's speed down and use the Plod to sort out all the other bad driving we all see... Perhaps if people had to drive better the speed issue might just resolve itself?
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Perhaps if people didn't have to concentrate on speed cameras in some ridiculously low limits, they would be able to concentrate on driving better.
Abolish the 20MPH limit around schools and ban all parking within half a mile unless within the school grounds. Permits to be available for school ground parking for those who have no option.
All dual carriageways should be 50MPH LOWEST limit anywhere and everywhere.
No more than one change of speed limit with 1 mile.
Motorway speed raised to 90MPH.
Problem solved.
Pat
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>> Perhaps if people didn't have to concentrate on speed cameras in some ridiculously low limits,
>> they would be able to concentrate on driving better.
>>
>
Sorry, Pat, but I strongly disagree with you (if I've understood you correctly!).
If you can't judge your speed without your eyes being permanently fixed on your speedo then you should not be driving at all. Its a myth that speed cameras cause people to loose concentration on what is going on around them because they somehow have to concentrate on their speed, and one which is used too often by the ban cameras brigade.
If you are aware of your surroundings then you should be able to judge your speed within a few mph by observation of what's around you, what gear you are in and the sound of your engine, and just the odd glance should be needed to confirm, I don't see why having cameras around (or not) should make any difference as its what you should be doing anyhow...
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 11:42
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>> Sorry, Pat, but I strongly disagree with you
I happen to agree with her.
(passes Pat the smelling salts)
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Perhaps just to clarify, Pats suggestions about speed limits are sensible, but its the bit where she implies that cameras cause danger due to people concentrating on their speedo that I disagree with... Any decent driver does not need to keep checking their speedo every 20 yards... Though it is a myth that is often perpetuated by the anti camera brigade as an excuse for poor drivers... As I said if I've misunderstood her, then I apologise.
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>> Any decent driver does not need to keep checking their speedo every 20 yards...
That's the problem. Not every driver is a decent one. some can't leave a safety gap, some can't nagivate their indicators, some don't know what engine braking is and continually dab on the brakes.
Also, have you ever driven an automatic? Not always easy to work out what speed you're doing from the engine noise, or what gear you're in.
There are enough distractions on our roads already without umpteen speed cameras joining in.
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>> >> Any decent driver does not need to keep checking their speedo every 20 yards...
>>
>>
>> That's the problem. Not every driver is a decent one. some can't leave a safety
>> gap, some can't nagivate their indicators, some don't know what engine braking is and continually
>> dab on the brakes.
>>
>> There are enough distractions on our roads already without umpteen speed cameras >> joining in.
Exactly.
Obviously, bad drivers like me that keep checking their speedo need taking off the road.
Perhaps there should be an amnesty.
I'm sure we'll all come quietly but, in the highly unlikely event that we don't, the roads will still be populated by a large number of us, and any safety measures will need to take account of us.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 13:30
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So these drivers you are talking about would be suddenly be perfectly ok if cameras weren't there? They would find no problem controlling their speed if they were expected to self regulate to a sensible speed for the prevailing conditions?
I don't think so.
You are just giving them an 'excuse' to cover up for their poor driving, VXM... If they were driving properly then cameras wouldn't even come into the equation... Hence my prefernce to keep the cameras (as long as we have speed limits) and get the Plod to concentrate on the other types poor driving.
And two of my cars are autos, thanks...
(Post refers to VXM's post, not SS's)
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 13:37
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VXM - who he?
Anyway, one of Pat's comments was "No more than one change of speed limit with 1 mile"
With the frequent need to change speed limits every 100 yrds, some people are unable to self regulate without continually having to look at their speedo. Couple that with cameras everywhere and it's a recipe for disaster. People will be too busy checking their speeds to bother looking where they're going.
"It's like this your honour, I turned that little lad who ran out into the road into a pizza because I was distracted by my speedo to make sure I wasn't speeding"
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>> I happen to agree with her.
So do all right-minded drivers, especially with two of her contentions: that many (not just some) speed limits are ridiculously low, and that the motorway limit should be raised.
However much they protest that they are decent drivers who just want the reckless minority to be curbed, those who approve of speed cameras are really people obsessed with control and repression who are almost certainly afraid of other vehicles on the road, and perhaps terrified of what they themselves might do if they were not restrained by 'the law'.
These people claim they drive at the posted limit on the rare occasions they think it is safe to do so. Personally I find it hard to believe them. I doubt if they ever get within 5 mph of the limit on any road. The carphounds are in my way almost every time I try to go anywhere. They are bad for my blood pressure and damn well ought to go by bus or train. They'd be much happier if they did, and so would drivers.
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As you can tell, the slow pace of life in the country has really mellowed our irascible old friend
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 14:07
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>> pace of life in the country has really mellowed our irascible old friend
You can say that again. You don't know the meaning of mimsing until you've followed one of these rural jobs, with the obligatory train of five halfwits tailgating along behind to render safe passing impossible, at 35mph down an open 60-limited Roman road.
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>> You can say that again. You don't know the meaning of mimsing until you've followed
>> one of these rural jobs, with the obligatory train of five halfwits tailgating along behind
>> to render safe passing impossible, at 35mph down an open 60-limited Roman road.
Maybe your overly cautious driving is at fault AC. Even if you stick to the speed limit, your 25 mph advantage would give you 36 feet a second.
If they happen to be widely spaced, you can always duck in between them.
I know your type. Hanging at the back, whining that you can't get past, when all that is required is some nuts, and a blatant disregard for public safety. :)
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 14:30
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>> If they happen to be widely spaced, you can always duck in between them.
They never are, or only once in a blue moon.
>> all that is required is some nuts
Used to have those when I was younger and more foolish. Went past one of those lines in my Dyane, on just such a sinuous, narrow but open Roman road. The car behind the cardinal mimser pulled out on me as I hammered, not all that fast of course, past the line. I saw the smoke from my own tyres in the rv mirror as I braked and went off the road onto the verge on the wrong side, and just as a vehicle coming quickly the other way appeared over the horizon. Just, and I mean just, managed to get past the miscreant in time. He was a family man in a Renault 4, two nippers and wife in the car.
Nuts indeed! Nothing to do with Cadbury, but they damn nearly got covered in chocolate that time. On reaching my destination saw from the bent n/s front bumper and slightly sprung wing that my car had actually nudged the rear o/s quarter of the R4, something I didn't notice at the time owing to the screaming tyres and strong g-forces in play.
One of my three nearest misses. I only overtake such lines with immense caution now. I expect the drivers to be blind, stupid and homicidal.
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You did say a Dyane, AC? I just can't reconcile that car and your description of the overtake...
(VXFan - oops, sorry!)
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A Dyane, yes, a newish lime green day-glo one. Surprisingly rapid with the right driving technique, but I believe you may be right hobby when you say you can't visualise the occasion. Just as well because if you could it might kill you.
:o}
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Oooo pfd!
After having driven an 850 Mini I think I can safely say that I've had plenty of experience of overtaking with an underpowered car... However I bow to your superior (?) knowledge of my driving history...
;-) :-)
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 2 Feb 11 at 12:15
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>> your superior (?) knowledge of my driving history...
You know I don't have any hobby. Just extrapolating backwards in time from what seems your current line on speed limit enforcement.
Evidently frightened yourself once too often in your salad days then. I must say it's dog-in-the-mangerish of you to want to stop everyone else's fun.
(gallop gallop gallop)
Heh heh....
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 1 Feb 11 at 23:35
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Wrong again, AC... but never mind, it suits your argument, so who am I to disagree with you, eh!
My "current" line has always been consistent, I support those who want an increase in some limits at certain times and in certain conditions...
However, and this is my key point, I feel with the current low level of driving standards across the board it would just not work and therefore is a dead duck.... My view is that average cameras would free up the Police to concentrate on poor diving, drink/drug driving and ensuring that 'banned' means just that and not, as it currently seems, "I'm banned but I'll still drive 'cause the chances are I won't get caught" - we might be in a position in a few years time where variable limits may work... I will welcome them if they do get introduced... I also don't have a problem with average cameras, and do not believe the myth that they take peoples' concentration away from the road, at least not if they are any sort of half-decent driver...
Oh, and I don't mimse, and never have done! ;-)
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>> I don't mimse, and never have done! ;-)
I think you have said so before, and I believe you of course.
Variable speed limits aren't a practical option on most roads. But a lot of speed limits are set absurdly low and could be raised without risk. That includes the overall limit on most motorways.
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>> I feel with the current low level of driving standards across the board it would just >> not work and therefore is a dead duck
Why do you think driving standards are worse and continuing to get worse? Could it possibly be that our road furniture and laws continually dumb things down and that this is combined with less police available to catch those that badly transgress.
>> .... My view is that average cameras would free up the Police to
I disagree. It will encourage more plebbish behaviour, the unthinking, sheep mentality. If you think mimsering is bad now, think what it will be like then.
We all drive down 'A' roads now with 60mph limits with people dawdling at 40mph because they aren't aware of the limit, they haven't noticed, so they drive at their default. The reality is of course if they stuck the needle on 66mph, allowed the 3 or 4 mph off that most modern cars overread, they'd be really doing 62mph...and there's nowhere in the country that would prosecute you for that.
Do we all want our journeys to be so sodding boring that we might as well not bother?
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"We all drive down 'A' roads now with 60mph limits with people dawdling at 40mph because they aren't aware of the limit, they haven't noticed, so they drive at their default. "
True of some. Some drive at 40 because they feel safe at that speed and some simply elect not to drive any faster because they don't want to and they are quite within the law not to.
The thing is that whilst most on this forum would choose to drive at the limit some people don't and our roads and legislation have to cater for a range of drivers from the occasional and nervous to the regular and confidant. Our road system could support higher speed limits if everyone out there was at the upper end of the scale but they aren't
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 2 Feb 11 at 18:18
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>> could support higher speed limits if everyone out there was at the upper end of
>> the scale but they aren't
I believe your point is valid, but the scale need only be mid scale. Trouble is drivers are fast becoming low scale only..because...everything is dumbed down so much. This will only get worse. The only way to get good at anything is to gain experience.
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Seems that the cameras on my work run are being switched off in April... It'll be interesting to see what the result is...
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>> It'll be interesting to see what the result is...
Nothing different from today i'd wager, lots of emergency braking immediately before the cameras.
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Living (as I understand) in the same county as AC, I can vouch for this - increasingly frequently these days I come across processions of such folk, nose to tail at 38 mph when the conditions (albeit not the speed limit) would allow for peaceful progress at double that speed. Yes, the Bravo has sufficient poke to pass rapidly enough but I do not much care for doing multi-vehicle overtakes, unless I'm on the bike.
There are also worrying numbers of people hereabouts who appear to lose all ability to see the road ahead after about 4.30 pm. You can imagine the sort of thing - cautious, not to say wobbly progress on the straights, punctuated by disproportionately hard braking for the slightest curve, lavish use of main beam. Not comfortable people to follow, and I should imagine not comfortable for their passengers either.
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FIXED average speed cameras on A13. - RattleandSmoke
