Apologies for the source, a friend told me about it... honest!
Watch the video clip as well - amazing!
tinyurl.com/yhkfptx
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Speechless, in the 3 stills it looks like the truck brake lights are on, but when you view the video(ish) it seems not, terrifying for the car occupants.
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Chuffin heck - wonder how the LGV driver doesn't seem to notice it. Good grief....
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This begs the question what exactly do lorry drivers see?
There should be mirrors/cameras to monitor all blinds spots around the lorry and trailer!
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GB, Pat (if about) , what do you think has been the cause here? Driver error or do you think with modern cabs and high dashboards etc that he may genuinely not have seen it from his seating point?
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...Apologies for the source...
No need to, it's Britain's best-read and most skilfully produced newspaper - we should be proud of it.
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>> No need to it's Britain's best-read and most skilfully produced newspaper - we should be
>> proud of it.
On that basis I suppose 'The X-Factor' might be a TV equivalent, which I admit to watching, but tend to feel dirty afterward :)
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...The X-Factor' might be a TV equivalent...
I'd put The Sun a bit higher than that.
They get some good stories - this lorry one being a good example.
It's a quality product with mass-market appeal.
The Daily Mail is in a similar bracket, and it is another newspaper some people like to disparage.
Pick up any copy of either, and there are tens of thousands of words with barely a single typo or literal among them.
Then there's all the work involved in gathering the content.
The whole thing's put together in a few hours before it's time to start the next one.
That each edition comes out on time is a minor miracle.
To me, The Sun and the Mail are top of the heap, but the work involved in the production of all our daily newspapers should be celebrated and applauded, not derided.
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>>...the work involved in the production of all our daily newspapers should be celebrated and applauded, not derided.>>
As a retired journalist, I couldn't agree with you more, whilst adding the not unimportant matter of distributing them to all parts of the UK during the early hours.
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>> They get some good stories - this lorry one being a good example.
they make up many more
>> To me The Sun and the Mail are top of the heap but the work
>> involved in the production of all our daily newspapers should be celebrated and applauded not
>> derided.
To me, the Sun and the Daily Mail ARE to be derided. The political slant they place upon the whole newspaper, and the unfairness of some of the reporting is frankly scandalous. Neither are sources of news, but someone elses politcal agenda.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 18 Mar 10 at 18:20
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Z this is worrying.;) i agree with you completely.
The way the popular red top has changed it's allegiances again presumably to suit some agenda is quite sickening, they are not alone either in being purveyors of propaganda.
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...it's allegiances again presumably to suit some agenda is quite sickening...
gb,
The newspaper doesn't lead public opinion, it follows it.
At election time, The Sun wants to be seen to back the winning team, that is, the one most of its readers are going to vote for.
You sell more papers this way, by telling the readers what they want to hear, reinforcing their view.
"Good for my Sun," they tend to think, and hopefully buy a copy the next day.
So the only agenda is really: "Which party do we back to sell the most papers?"
Followed by: "Let's do what we can to make sure we're right."
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>> At election time The Sun wants to be seen to back the winning team that
>> is the one most of its readers are going to vote for.
Yes and it suits the owner for some reasion this time where it didn't before.
The lack of spine and conviction leaves a bad taste in my mouth, luckily the only time i read the thing is whilst waiting for a tasty sandwich at a butty wagon, and the few times i've subjected meself has only reinforced my intense dislike of such blatant propaganda.
I really don't agree that papers such as this go by public opinion, i believe they make the opinion for those easily led to follow.
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...Yes and it suits the owner for some reasion this time where it didn't before...
gb,
There is no conspiracy here, it is just about trying to pick the winning horse, same as it was when The Sun backed Blair.
...what will they do if there's a hung parliament...
Nothing, the election has yet to be called, but the colours are already nailed to the mast.
The Sun's not infallible, they could be wrong.
Not ideal from their point of view, but the paper will survive.
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...any comment on this ifithelps?...
Difficult, without unfairly pushing the boundaries of our new, relaxed, modding style, but lest I be accused of completely ducking the issue:
I don't think all the fans that day covered themselves in glory.
That story was the one The Sun had at the time and you could say it was a brave decision to run it.
Some people in Liverpool will clearly never let The Sun forget it, which is their choice, and it may be lessons were learned at the paper.
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So what they gonna do now it looks like a hung parliament, sit on the fence?
Its sickening
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...they make up many more...
Zero,
That really is tripe.
All I can suggest is that now you are retired you spend a few days in a newspaper's newsroom.
If you do, I feel sure you will modify your opinion.
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>> ...they make up many more...
>>
>> Zero
>>
>> That really is tripe.
>>
>> All I can suggest is that now you are retired you spend a few days
>> in a newspaper's newsroom.
>>
>> If you do I feel sure you will modify your opinion.
Far sooner work in the Press Complaints Commision. Job for life that place.
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I have to confess that I've actually done this to a car but only at 20MPH.
It happened in slow moving traffic on the M25.
All three lanes had crawled from the M4 and when we got alongside the exit for the A41 it started to move a bit better.
I was in the middle lane and wanted to return to the nearside lane. I checked my mirror and there was a small red car at the back of the trailer, I checked it again along with the kerbside mirror and it had gone. I assumed he had taken the slip road that we were still adjacent to, and in fact his rear end was right on the nearside point of my front bumper. It slowly flipped him round and from the wihdscreen I saw nothing of this and in fact felt nothing.
I heard a noise and leaned forward andwas horrified to see him in front of me.
No-one was injured and very little damage to the car either but the driver and passenger were shaken, quite rightly so.
This happened about 20 years ago and now we have to have mirrors over the windscreen to get rid of that particular blind spot. The legislation isn't retrospective though and I notice that the lorry in the video hadn't got one.
This blind spot is one of the major problems with traffic lights in towns when pedestrians can be in front of the bumper and you can't see them from the drivers seat, children are especially vulnerable and we try and do demo's at schools to show this to them.
I really can't understand how that happened without him knowing at that speed though.
I do have some reservations about the authenticity of it, too.
>>>> head down, and off out for the afternoon to avoid the criticism:)<<<<
Pat
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...head down, and off out for the afternoon to avoid the criticism...
Pat,
Why should you expect any?
We all know you know your onions - and the bag they come in - when it comes to lorries.
It's not criticism if someone disagrees with you.
Which in this case, I don't.
I, too, wonder about the authenticity of the whole thing.
But on t'other hand, it would seem particularly stupid to set this up on a trunk road such as the A1(M) at Wetherby.
Mind, I'm the guy who was conned out of a fiver at the roadside by some lying Serbo-Croat, so what do I know? :)
Last edited by: ifithelps on Thu 18 Mar 10 at 12:01
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Well, I've read the comments under the video!
In my defence I could have said that the car 'undertook' me, which is what the BiB said when they arrived, but in my book, I should have not let that happen.
Pat
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Assuming this does not turn out to be some sort of cleverly put together video, I think one of the comments is correct in that the Clio driver was lucky that it wasn't dry or the tyres might have gripped better!
An advert for not getting winter tyres!!!
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> I assumed he had
Assumptions. Realy must be the number one cause of accidents. The favourite example being the roundabout "Look right, gap he's gone, gap - my turn OOPPS He hadnt gone after all.
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...Assumptions. Realy must be the number one cause of accidents...
There's an old saying beloved of editors when talking to junior reporters:
"Don't assume anything, you will make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'."
Last edited by: ifithelps on Thu 18 Mar 10 at 12:31
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Classic lorry driver tip is NEVER to take your eyes off the vehicle in front at a roundabout or T junction until it has pulled away, then start looking for a gap to pull out.
Pat
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Pat, you're missing an environmental trick here I think:
tinyurl.com/ydj75q4
(Note - article itself safe for work, but some swearwords in the links around it)
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I'm not going to get drawn into the why's and wherefore's other than to say this is a common accident on our roads involving foreign trucks, but the truck driver normally feels the impact and brakes immediately, assuming the car has become tangled around the front bumper of the truck and physics have taken over.
I've watched this video on a better source and the truck is powering along for at least 17 seconds and presumably several more before and after the shots were taken.
Pat's quite right about better mirror specs on modern trucks, however if the truck driver really didn't know the car was there he wouldn't be checking his 2 'down' mirrors unless about to execute a lane change in heavy traffic even if they were fitted, unless he suspected something.
Pat's a proper truck driver though, even though she was probably not to blame for her episode she takes responsibility seriously, she also didn't push the car for half a mile i wager.
Something not quite right about the whole thing, i don't think it was staged but i have other gut feelings about it best not said, though i imagine others have felt the same.
I saw similar to this happening many years ago with terrible results and i locked eyes with the poor chap in the car involved just before impact...i can still see him.
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Are we suggesting it was deliberate in some way?
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Well on the Sky report the lorry company is confirming its not a hoax, there was an incident, the lady driver escaped unscathed but they are re opening their investigation based on this video now....
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Who was around to take a video out of a moving vehicle and had all their kit set-up to do it at a second's notice, illegally or otherewise?
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Stepping slightly aside I have to say that the standard of lorry driving, here in North Devon, on roads other than Dual Carriageways or Motorways is quite appalling.
Can PDA or others please confirm. What is the Maximum speed allowed for the likes of a Milk collection Tanker and an Oil delivery Tanker on A and B and unclassified roads and obviously I don't mean domestic/transit sized stuff. I believe I know, but I do not wish to guess.
Best regards.......Martin D.
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ive had this done to me on the m1, foreign lorry driver didnt see me in lane 3 (where he shouldnt have been trying to get )
shunted me about 100 yards sideways similar to the video
luckily we were all doing 40 as a wide load was ahead ( the driver of the wide load was my witness for the claim against foreign lorry) very frightening experience, the only way to explain it , it all seemed to happen in slow motion without any sound ...very odd
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The speed limit is 40MPH on any single carriageway road Martin and 50mph on dual carriageways.
It's always difficult to know what to do to be right on sone A Roads though.
At 40MPH we tend to gather a long queue of cars behind us all vying to overtake where there is any chink of vision.
At 50 ish they do seem more content to stay behind.
The A39 and milk tankers used to amaze me though around the bottom end before Camelford. The road is bad for two lorries meeting in opposite directions on a foggy morning, but they never seemed to slow down much.
On the other hand, we have a delivery to a farm at Ipplepen where we turn left off the main road and are confronted with a sign saying 'Unsuitable for HGV's'.
We have to do about 4 miles along that road causing chaos to get to the farm, and frequently get bombarded with insults from local car drivers in the process who have to back up for us. It's the only access and presumambly the local planning committee have given permission for the farm to run a potato business from there, supplying the local fish & chip shops?
Mortonhampstead is another one that springs to mind. It once took me 45 minutes to do about 9 miles from the A38 to deliver there, because of meeting coaches and lorries on every bend, yet still a Haulage Firm is run from that village despite having premises elsewhere.
Is it better to approach from the top or the bottom?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 19 Mar 10 at 05:11
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A true, brown-trouser moment!!
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i think she was wearing a beige skirt actually :-)
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Surely the lorry driver must have heard the noise of a car being scraped along at nearly 60mph even if he couldn't actually see it?
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What noise does rubber tyres make as they aquaplane over wet tarmac?
More worrying for me is the fact he didn't feel the impact and didn't see the car in front of him.
Wonder when his interview will hit the BBC website???? :)
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>> news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/8579523.stm
>>
>> The victim speaks
Saw an 'exclusive' interview on ITV news yesterday. Don't understand why she didn't try sounding her horn? Stress of the situation I guess.
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Well, she was on her mobile at the time.....
She was also a little evasive as to how she got herself under the front of the truck. Lane-changing without due care perchance?
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/10162158.stm
Here is the sequel to the above much publicised event.
I have to say here that Beverley Bell is one of the most feared Traffic Commissioners for lorry drivers.
She is known to be very, very strict and few lorry drivers or operators go before her and come away with a licence.
As a lot of us said at the time, there was more to this than met the eye, and the only guilty person here is the one who posted it on You Tube.
Pat
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>> the only guilty person here is the one who posted it
>> on You Tube.
Sorry Pat - you mean for not doing more to alert the lorry driver, or something else?
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No I don't F.
I mean for putting it in the public domain and getting his own 5 minutes of fame at the cost of the lorry driver being judged by everyone who had an opinion.
An totally unqualified opinion to judge his actions I might add.
Beverley Bells opening words to the lorry driver in question would have been '' As a professional driver how do you explain this''
Remember that, every newspaper/media report/internet forum had carried this story and there were very few members of the public who had not already passed their judgement, in most cases, very loudly.
The facts, as they became available, ( the Police had investigated and had decided there was no case for him to answer) made no difference to the judgements made by those who had no knowledge of the situation.
They had him hung drawn and quartered.
What we need to remember is just what he felt when he realised what had happened. Despite being cleared of any blame he will feel, as a professional driver that he should have avoided this situation, a situation he couldn't have avoided. He will blame himself forever. He will be ridiculed forever.
He has had his integrity and his licence put on trial twice, once by the Police and secondly by the Traffic Commisioners. He's been found blameless twice, I think that says it all.
If I see an accident happening I dive for my phone.................to dial 999, and I suspect all of us on here do the same.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 27 May 10 at 08:21
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What I don't understand is
"The slip road joins the middle lane of the motorway"
Never seen that and regularly drive though there!
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That is confusing I have to admit!
Is it along the stretch where the right hand 2 lanes go down the M1 and the left hand lane is for the A1? There is always a lot of jostling for position there despite loads of room to get in lane.
Pat
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The company in question deliver to our mill. I asked a driver what was going on with the chap in question and was told that he had been suspended pending the outcome of the enquiry.
I will try and get an update as and when, but I do hope he hasn't lost his job over this.
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Pat,
You say everyone had passed judgment, and that may be so.
But the only judgments that matter have come out in favour of the driver.
The police/CPS decided he did nothing wrong.
Better yet, he has a ringing endorsement from the traffic commissioner.
And your criticism of this incident appearing in the public domain is as unjust as it is laughable.
This happened on two of the busiest roads in the country - there was always a bit moee than a feint chance someone would hear about it.
The woman in the Clio spoke to the media about what happened.
Neither you, I, or anybody else, has any right to tell her to whom she should or should not speak.
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IIH,
I think the words unjust and laughable are out of place. The Clio driver had every right to comment, the person who filmed & posted on u-tube has no such defence.
The trucker would have faced the justice system and the Commissioner whatever, the public comment is neither needed nor helpful.
Interesting to see the TC's work publicised outside the trucking and/or Administrative Justice worlds though!!
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> I mean for putting it in the public domain and getting his own 5 minutes of fame
Because it happened in the public domain. The person who shot the film has the right to do whatever they want with it. Its factual, not false or made up, and represents a scene at a time at a place.
> at the cost of the lorry driver being judged by everyone who had an opinion.
The last time I checked, opinion wasnt illegal.
To try and place any blame on the person who shot and sold the film to the press is, quite frankly, utterly rediculous.
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The film may also have helped to establish the driver's innocence.
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>>And your criticism of this incident appearing in the public domain is as unjust as it is laughable.<<
IIH, I have not made any criticism of this incident appearing in the public domain.
I have criticised the reactions of the public when it appeared in the domain.
I have also (Z) criticised the actions of the moron who used a mobile phone to film an accident with apparent glee, listening to the footage, and then chose to post it on You Tube.
Chronologically the accident happened in January, yet it was mid March before it was made public.
During that time, the Police had investigated and decided they didn't need to get involved.
The lorry drivers firm had investigated and along with the Police report had also decided the lorry driver was not to blame.
Now for any other profession the matter would have been closed.
Two months later, due to a media circus and subsequent public outcry, the Police decide to investigate again, yet still come to the same conclusion.
The lorry drivers firm re-open their investigation and find that no other facts have emerged than what was available in January.
BUT, due entirely to the publicity, the Traffic Commissioners get involved ( and quite rightly so) and they uphold the good repute of both the firm and the lorry driver.
To explain, you own your car driving licence, but the Secretary of State owns your HGV Licence and only loans it to you while you conform to conditions laid out very clearly. This means the Traffic Commissioners have the power to revoke that HGV Licence at any time for any period they wish, sometimes for life and to stop the firm you work for from operating as a haulage business in extreme cases.
Pending this enquiry, the lorry driver and his employer would have feared for their future livelihood, and must have feared that the negative public outcry would affect the findings.
Thankfully, it didn't.
But when you have people like GMTV discussing it on national TV and comments from actress Leslie Joseph on morning tv debating it with Paul Ross (who's father was a lorry driver ) saying 'the problem is drivers of these big trucks dont like the fact that women overtake them' it is bound to make us angry.
I still maintain that the car driver should have blown her horn instead of making a phone call, and I still maintain the person who filmed it instead of dialling 999 should never be allowed to use a mobile phone again, for the months of heartache he has put so many people through.
As for opinions, yes, we are all entitled to them, but rarely does anyone admit publicly that those opinions they made at the time, publicly, were wrong.
Nor do they stop to think of the impact those 'publicly made' opinions can have on other people, when they make them.
Pat
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>> Because it happened in the public domain. The person who shot the film has the
>> right to do whatever they want with it. Its factual, not false or made up,
>> and represents a scene at a time at a place.
They may have had a right but what about responsibility?
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>> They may have had a right but what about responsibility?
Its a very unique piece of footage. I doubt we will see its like again. The person who took it probably has a responsibility to share it with all of us. What possible justification can there be for censoring it?
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None whatsoever Z, but one would hope that personal standards would have 'self' censored it.
Pat
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why? for what possible reason? what standards?
Have you considered, if you take your lorry driving chip off your shoulder, that it might have done some good to be in the public domain? That possibly it might have remided people how restricted a lorry drivers view might be? That before they zip out into a tiny gap in front of the lorry, that video might ring an alarm bell in their mind?
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And have you considered that the phone could have saved a life had it been used as it should have been if the accident had resulted in serious injury?
Have you considered the damage the video and the accompanying press coverage has done to our profession?
Will the report I posted receive that much coverage? No, we all know it won't.
I don't have a lorry driving chip on my shoulder Z, the chip I have on myshoulder, and that arrived long before I became a lorry driver is to see everyone treated equally AND fairly.
If I felt you were being treated unfairly I would come out, all guns blazing, for you in just the same way.
Whether you wanted it or not, as AC will confirm :)
Pat
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Perhaps there's video of a certain encounter between a Laguna and a bus out there in cyberspace :-)
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I thought it was educational.
At the time it happened (when I started this thread), I felt sorry for both the Lorry driver and the car driver.
What have I learned from it, Give lorries more time and space and respect.
So I don't think it was a bad thing showing the video on the web.
Regarding the lorry driver, I am glad that common sense does exist and that he was not prosecuted.
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I mostly agree with pda - especially he remarks about the actress' comments. I disagree on the posting of the footage on YouTube - it was an unique event, the person who filmed it happened to be there and was lucky enough to record what had happened, the press would have done the same thing in the same situation - it happened in a public place there was little or no breach of privacy...... the video clip shares the same standards as those grainy CCTV shots occasionally screened of Police Officers "dealing" with a miscreant. Fortunately we have a Justice System that most of the time gets it right and resolves stuff like this.
Sadly Pat non lorry drivers find it difficult to understand that the driver could not have been aware of what was going on and we need experts to explain that to us. I do accept that he didn't know given the exchanges on here.
I also agree with Zero's comments.
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Diddy expressed so much better than I managed to.
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The film must have helped the investigation and therefore exonerate the driver.
I would say the person who took it had a moral duty to make it available.
Pat seems to want everything dealt with behind closed doors, but secret justice is no justice at all.
And what's all this stuff about me owning my car licence, but a HGV driver's licence being on loan?
There are any number of ways I can lose my car licence, so I don't own it any more than a HGV driver does.
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IIH
Watch my lips!
You seem intent upon putting words into my mouth and I will not allow that.
I want a fair trial for the lorry driver, car driver and all concerned.
I've never advocated that this should happen behind closed doors, just that it had already happened and been resolved. What then happened 2 months later was neither fair or reasonable, for the lorry driver to have to deal with.
You have a right to apply for a car licence and have one granted. This isn't so for an HGV Licence.
Here is a link fron DSA telling you the criteria for obtaining an HGV licence.
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022549
This can be revoked at any time without your car licence being affected.
Pat
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I agree that the person had the right to show the footage, but I also agree with Pat that there is also a moral obligation before posting it to ensure that the correct facts are also made public at the same time... in this case that the incident had already been invrestigated by the powers that be and no-one was found to be at fault and it was just a fluke with, luckily, a happy ending...
It would also have helped if the driver of the car would have made that clear when she was interviewed by the press!
Trouble is, many people who post on YouTube don't think about the consequences of their actions.
Last edited by: hobby on Fri 28 May 10 at 09:34
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Good point hobby - Pat has explained it nicely here - there are learning points for everyone involved in this ?
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I'm always in 2 minds when I see these life threatening situations appearing on Youtube and the like. On the one hand there is always a morbid fascination and the assertion that it could be educational in some way.
On the other hand there is a horrific video in the public domain in Russia of a road accident which happened in Moscow. A driver lost control of his SUV and rammed it into a traffic bollard. The video shows a large group of people filming the ensuing inferno with their mobile phones. Noone apparently came up with the bright idea of using their phone to call the emergency services until the unfortunate occupants of the vehicle had burned to death.
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I think the tanker driver needs a thorough medical. For hearing and sight.
The initial inpact would have been obvious.
The car displays braking. Should make noise along the carriageway, even in the wet. Cats eyes etc.
The headlights on the truck would have been obscurred. Didn't he wonder why the beams weren't stretched out ahead.
Look closly at the footage.The cars headlights light up the central barrier. Didn't his peripheral vision not clock that. I would have.
I find it hard to believe he couldn't see any part of the car from his driving position.
So I have to conclude that his hearing was impaired. Either medically or he had loud music blarring in the cab. Either from a radio or from wearing an MP3 device.
His eyesight is in doubt.
Either way, driving without due care IMO. And before you pounce Pat, I have an LGV licence.
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Good for you Capt Flack, then you should be well aware of the facts that Beverley Bell expressed so well..........and also fear her as we all do:)
Pat
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Did you read the article and note what was said?
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From an non HGV drivers perspective I think Cpt Flacks post sums up what I would have believed to be true - there must have been some indications, and maybe they were missed.
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>>there must have been some indications
Not necessarily.
If the car was flipped round while both car and truck were travelling at similar speeds, there wouldn't necessarily have been any significant impact - possibly nothing more than you might feel going over an all too typical bump in the road.
The noise caused by the 4 skidding tyres of the car against the wet road surface wouldn't be particularly loud - truck cabs aren't particularly quiet places - I can easily imagine the driver would not have heard it.
The driver would have been looking forward into the middle and far distance - there would generally be no need to be looking at the central reservation so close to the truck, or leaning forward to look down the front of the cab.
I wouldn't be surprised to find it was by seeing flashing lights and gesticulations from oncoming traffic that first raised the alarm to the truck driver.
Way back in the mists of time, my cousin pushed a Triumph Herald out onto a roundabout while driving our Scammell Crusader. We don't let him forget about it!
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A properly alert driver might have wondered what happened to that Clio that was in my nearside mirror a second ago, and that was heading to join the main carriageway just in front of me.
I suppose lorry drivers can't see what's immediately behind them - or in front of them in this case.
He may have thought the Clio had tucked in behind.
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>> A properly alert driver might have wondered what happened to that Clio that was in
>> my nearside mirror a second ago.....
Maybe the Clio went down the slip road so fast the truck driver didn't have a chance to see it?
I think someone has stated that junction has a slip that becomes a running lane?
Im not a fan of those, there is a lot of accidents on the M40 J3 (Loudwater) and I believe a lot of those are caused in part by lane one becoming lane two.....
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>>
>> I suppose lorry drivers can't see what's immediately behind them - or in front of
>> them in this case.
>>
>> He may have thought the Clio had tucked in behind.
>>
>>
>>
They can't, and a properly alert car driver should be well aware of this; this is why most lorries now have the "If you can't see my mirrors etc" sticker on the back door.
Not that some drivers take much notice; I'm lucky enough to have a reversing camera fitted to mine which has a pop-up screen which I can activate by a dashboard switch. I have on occasion had to use this to check whether someone's tailgating me, or if they've turned off.
On one occasion, a persistent tailgater pulled up behind me at a set of traffic lights where i knew we'd be stood for a couple of minutes. I got out, walked round the back, opened the back door and asked him none too politely if he wanted to get inside for a closer look!
He got the message and kept back when we moved.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Fri 28 May 10 at 19:12
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Frankly this is completely ridiculous!
1/ Rather than keep his license the truck driver should be locked up, I am not saying that he knew the car was there rather the fact that he did not know the car was there means he was not driving with due care and attention.
2/ If, I say IF, it is true that it is possible for a truck driver to not be aware of a car in such circumstances then truck design is seriously flawed.
Last edited by: Cheddar on Sat 29 May 10 at 09:02
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Why are some people assuming that the car driver is innocent... we only have her word for it?
Quite honestly I supect that its actually her thats at fault rather than the lorry driver... I remember in my biking days just how stupid car drivers can be when passing or being passed by an artic, one driver actually went up the inside of one when approaching a roundabout and got mashed when the artic used both lanes when exiting... common sense and car drivers when faced with artics doesn't exist... hence "long vehicle" and other signs on the back of them to allert the dim witted car driver!
I suspect what happened is that she moved out of her lane into his without checking she was clear and got turned in front of him... but I can hardly see he admitting to that mistake... just blame someone else...
Last edited by: hobby on Sat 29 May 10 at 09:18
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>> Why are some people assuming that the car driver is innocent... we only have her word for it?
>>
Whether or not the car driver was at fault is a different matter to whether or not the truck driver should have been aware of the car.
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Cheddar, I get the impression from your two posts above that you either haven't read much of the preceding discussion, or in your mind car drivers can do no wrong.
Since the police and the traffic commissioner have independently decided that the lorry driver has no case to answer, I can only assume that you consider your expertise and knowledge to be greater than theirs. Might I suggest that you at least take the opportunity to sit in the cab of a modern HGV and see for yourself before parading your one-eyed prejudice before us all.
I've actually witnessed a similar incident, some years ago on the M1 southbound just before Attercliffe viaduct. In that case it was a Sierra which had ended on the lorry's front bumper and was being pushed along sideways; a trawl through Google also suggests that this sort of incident isn't as rare as we might think.
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...before parading your one-eyed prejudice before us all...
At least he's got one eye. :)
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Pity he doesn't use it to read the whole thread:)
Pat
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>> or in your mind car drivers can do no wrong. >>
It is not a matter of the rights and wrongs of the car driver, whatever the car driver may have done wrongly it is totally, completely ridiculous that a truck can be driving at motorway speeds with a car stuck under the cab without the driver being aware of it! So either:
1/ The driver wilfully carried on knowing the car was there.
2/ The driver should have know it was there and was not paying due care and attention.
3/ Truck design is seriously flawed.
>> Since the police and the traffic commissioner have independently decided that the lorry driver has no case to answer>>
Therefore if, as you suggest, we take what the police and traffic commisioner say as gospel without question then I can only conclude that my point 3/ above is the case.
>> your one-eyed prejudice before us all. >>
So is one not allowed to have an opinion that differs with yours Harleyman without be insulted, prejudice and opinion are two different things you know.
I may diagree with your opinon though I dont question your right to express it, I would appreciate the same respect in return.
Last edited by: Cheddar on Sat 29 May 10 at 09:54
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"3/ Truck design is seriously flawed."
That's nonsense of course, trapped Renault Clios under the valance of a truck are not a criteria in truck design.
If you you collected a child's go-cart under your car that you could neither see nor hear would you say the design of your car was seriously flawed.
It was a one off.
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Sat 29 May 10 at 09:56
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>> "3/ Truck design is seriously flawed."
>>
>> That's nonsense of course,
Trucks and Renault Clios share the roads together, go-carts dont.
How can anyone think it is acceptable that a truck driver should not be able to see a car directly in front of it?
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You don't design for an unforseen or once-a-century event.
What are you suggesting? Cow catchers on every truck. Get a grip.
Sometime in the next hundred years a skydiver might land on the top of a cab. Lets plan for that and give every truck a trampoline roof.
Ridiculous.
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Sat 29 May 10 at 10:03
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>> skydiver might land on the top of a cab. >>
Even less relevant that the go-kart analogy.
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"Even less relevant that the go-kart analogy."
That was kind of the idea.
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You had to bring that up, didn't you? I loved that go-kart, and yes, I should have been more careful with where I left it when I went in to watch Count Duckula, but I still think my dad was negligent, reversing his VW transporter van over it, blind spots or no.
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Cheddar, you and I, as non HGV licence holders do not know what its like to be behind the wheel of an HGV, so rather than make wild accusations about this drivers competence (and yes, they are wild bearing in mind the findings of the two investigatory bodies) can I suggest that you liaise with a couple of the HGV drivers on here and arrange a day out so you can see what its really like up there in the cab of an HGV?
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>> Cheddar, ......... can I suggest that you liaise with a couple of the HGV
>> drivers on here and arrange a day out so you can see what its really
>> like up there in the cab of an HGV?
>>
Hear Hear, any chance of sitting Cheddar in a cab?
Myself, having driven all manner of stuff from a 50cc moped to a 7.5 tonner, I feel that (where possible - disability etc excepting) all new drivers should be taken out in/on different forms of road vehicle so that the problems/issues can be seen 1st hand.
maybe this could be done partly in a multimedia way?
IF this was done, I believe rather than costing money, it would save both money and lives.
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>> I may disagree with your opinon though I dont question your right to express it,
>> I would appreciate the same respect in return.
You'd have received had it not been for your assertion that the lorry driver, despite having been cleared by people who know what they're talking about, should have been jailed.
My opinion is based on nearly 30 years experience as a lorry driver, during which time I have seen HGV design improve immeasurably, to the benefit of both HGV drivers and other road users.
Yours is based on......?
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>> Yours is based on......?
>>
It being totally unnaceptable that a truck should be able to be driving at m/way speeds with a car stuck under its valance without the driver being aware of it.
So the driver has been cleared, what has to be done to ensure that it cannot happen again?
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>> So the driver has been cleared, what has to be done to ensure that it
>> cannot happen again?
>>
Make car drivers more aware of the lack of visibilty from an HGV's cab? HGVs already do a lot to alert other drivers, perhaps we car drivers should now take some lessons on board... like being aware of our surroundings and getting out of, or not letting ourselves get into, situations where we would put ourselves at risk...
If there's one thing this story has done is make people more aware of HGVs and be more careful when around them... at least I hope it has!!
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>>> 3/ Truck design is seriously flawed.
Which is the most sensible thing I've read on this topic (with the opposite being the comments about certain trash comics that are laughably called 'newspapers'..)
What the truck driving profession constantly overlook is the massive disparity in size & performance of their beloved behemoths. That a vehicle can be driven (by, let's assume, a competent & diligent truck driver) at speed on a dual carraigeway/m-way pushing along a 1 ton car sideways for hundreds of metres without the driver being aware, points to very serious vehicle design flaws - at the very least.
Truck design isn't moderated by anything other than maximum weight being carried for greatest distance at greatest speed (speed restrictions permitting) - and to heck with any 'co-habitation of road' principles or considerations.
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>>
>> Truck design isn't moderated by anything other than maximum weight being carried for greatest distance
>> at greatest speed (speed restrictions permitting) - and to heck with any 'co-habitation of road'
>> principles or considerations.
>>
Sorry Kensitas but that's just bulldust. If that were the case, HGV's would not have under-run bars, sideguards, spray suppressors, airbags, failsafe brakes and anti-jacknife equipment, all of which add (sometimes considerably) to the unladen weight. That stuff's there to make us safer and by definition to make the roads safer for you.
HGV drivers have to be very aware of the size of their vehicles; you either remember how big your truck is or end up hitting something (or someone) you shouldn't. One of the biggest hazards we face is the other driver who does not take our vehicles' size and limitations in terms of visibility and manoeuverability into account when sharing the road with us.
I must apologise for repeating the old maxim, but if it weren't for those "beloved behemoths" delivering everything everywhere you wouldn't be typing this, unless of course you really believe that Santa dropped your PC down the chimney! ;)
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Thats been sufficiently covered, both by the Police and other investigatory bodies, Chedder... he was not found to be at fault... so unless you know any other facts which prove otherwise then you comments about the lorry driver are well out of order.
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Has it occured to anyone that they could both have been in each others blind spots at the time of contact ?
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>> Has it occured to anyone that they could both have been in each others blind
>> spots at the time of contact ?
Can a car driver have a blind spot that big?
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>> Can a car driver have a blind spot that big?>>
Clearly not though it is equally ridiculous that the truck driver was not aware of the car therefore if the driver was not at fault it must come down to truck design.
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Do you look over your shoulder when entering a motorway from a slip road? I certainly do.
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Sums it up nicely, ON... yes is the answer, Focus, especially if you make the assumption that you have passed the vehicle and thus don't look properly... not looking properly (or at all) is also a blind spot!
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>> Do you look over your shoulder when entering a motorway from a slip road? I
>> certainly do.
Usually, but not to look for lorries.
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How many of us can honestly admit to never ever passing something and pulling back in before realising that they haven't actually got past the other vehicle (usually reminded of such by a toot from the other driver!)?
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>> Usually, but not to look for lorries.
>>
One day you may get a big surprise, I sincerely hope thats all you get.
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>> One day you may get a big surprise, I sincerely hope thats all you get.
Thanks :)
I can accept a lorry has at least one massive blind spot, and to not see something in it isn't necessarily negligent (as in this case). If the car driver claimed she had not seen the lorry because it was in her blind spot, I would say she had been negligent - like you say, allowing for blind spots in cars is as easy as looking over your shoulder.
Her one get-out might be that a mirror had been knocked without her noticing it, although it's more likely that they were just incorrectly set.
Hypothetical of course.
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>> Has it occured to anyone that they could both have been in each others blind
>> spots at the time of contact ?
>>
Quite possibly. Have a look at a modern HGV and you'll notice it's got more mirrors than a 1960's Lambretta, but it'll still have blind spots just like your car has.
In answer to a previous comment, modern HGV's are not noisy in the cab, however they are well insulated from noise for obvious reasons of driver comfort and legislation. This may also have been a contributory factor to the driver not noticing the impact immediately.
The simple solution is for ALL drivers to allow each other more room.
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Cheddar
If you're free on Saturday July 31st I will arrange for you to sit in a lorry cab, you can choose any car in our extensive car park, and I will park it across the front bumper and you can then come back on here and tell us all how much you can see,
I will also allow you to drive up and down the yard, turn it round and reverse into a parking space with a loaded 45' trailer and using your mirrors.
We can then discuss blind spots.
We will also tie some rope onto the wipers and pull it forwards until you can see it ( we usually see how many primary school children can hide in that space).
The school kids go away with a good understanding of lorries danger zones and blind spots.
I only hope we can educate you too.
I might even buy you a baco sarnie for lunch and teach you ti tie a dolly knot:)
Pat
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"If you're free on Saturday July 31st I will arrange for you to sit in a lorry cab"
What? And have facts spoil his tantrum?
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Nice one Pat, fiver to charity if he shows up.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 29 May 10 at 10:21
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My email address is on my profile, if anyone else would like to be there please let me know:)
I shall be rattling the charity tin at the gate when we let you go home!
Pat
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>> Nice one Pat, fiver to charity if he shows up.
>>
make that a tenner!
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I wouldn't mind doing it myself... but I'm working!
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...fiver to charity...tenner to charity...if he turns up...
Steady on.
Goading fellow members to do something is a road down which we don't want to go.
This is one step from bullying, which is something I absolutely cannot stand.
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Second IIH's comment.
One of the things I like about this forum is that by and large there is no campaigning or grudge-bearing against bikers or truckers.
I might have taken umbrage at Cheddar's comment re. jailing the driver, but putting him in the pillory will serve no purpose for any of us.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 29 May 10 at 12:41
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I think people have concentrated far too much on the first part of Chedders post.
To me, his point is simply: THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
Which doesn't seem that unreasonable. He then states two different possibilities for how it came to happen, and therefore what needs to be done to achieve the above aim. Everyone has jumped on the first of the possibilities, but he made no suggestion as to which one he thought was the more likely.
That said, I probably agree with BBD's point about the massive unlikelihood of it anyway meaning there is little advantage to combating it. (Even if he did use such a personally heart-breaking analogy to make it.)
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"(Even if he did use such a personally heart-breaking analogy to make it.)"
I can see two pedal cars on our street just from my kitchen window. There are 37 kids under 8 years old on our street and I'm determined that none of them shall go through what you went through. Best I wait till dark, nick 'em and sell 'em on ebay.
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...Best I wait till dark, nick 'em and sell 'em on ebay...
And what will you do with the pedal cars?
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Lighten up ifit, we don't know if Pat's bash on the 31st July will happen yet, and whether it does or not someone will benefit from my fiver. I am tied up on that date but am negotiating my availability and its 350 miles each way for me.
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The day will happen ON, it happens every year:)
It's a day when we lorry drivers give up part of our weekend to try and encourage new drivers into the industry, to try and give them, at the very beginning, a professional and responsible attitude.
We encourage anyone who hasn't the experience of driving or even just sitting in a large vehicle to come and do that. The emphasis is very much on road safety but we do have to restrict it to adults for insurance purposes.
Unless your left handed we'll teach you to do a dolly knot and how to rope and sheet a complete load.
We would dearly love to take the road safety part of the day into schools and town centre shopping precincts, but sadly the PL Insurance required to do this is beyond us. We can do demonstrations to kids, and show how easily it is to get under trailer wheels and it does seem to stick in their minds.
On July 31st you will get the opportunity to drive a Scania, Volvo, Merecedes and a Daf, auto, semi auto and manaual, and usually we round the day off with the old crash box Bedford going up and down the yard playing tunes on the gear box.
It's hard work for us after a week away from home, it's a hell of a risk to my old Boss, who lets us use any of the lorries and often they are only a couple of moths old, but we've not done any damage in 6 years yet!
It's our small way of trying to break down the barriers and build bridges will all other road users.
Pat
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>> >> Unless your left handed we'll teach you to do a dolly knot and how to
>> rope and sheet a complete load.
>>
>>
I AM left handed - what do I do now?
www.realknots.com/knots/faqknot.htm
Second one down.
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It's incredibly hard for a right handed person to explain to a left haner how to do a dolly know as we've found:)
Pat
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>> It's incredibly hard for a right handed person to explain to a left haner how
>> to do a dolly know as we've found:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Heh heh! Being a left-hander myself, I was never overly popular with the yard staff if they had to unsheet one of my loads!
Here's one I made earlier....
tinyurl.com/3a6t9q5
Loading bagged fertiliser out of Swansea docks in my previous job.
Hope Pat will appreciate this, the art is not yet dead! ;-)
Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 31 May 10 at 21:10
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>> Here's one I made earlier....
>>
>> tinyurl.com/3a6t9q5
>>
Neat and sealed in the rear floor to keep it dry too impressive, were the sheets very good HM or was the weather good enough for no 'fly' sheet?
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were the
>> sheets very good HM or was the weather good enough for no 'fly' sheet?
>>
Flysheet was like a string vest! IIRC I was waiting for a new one.
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>> The day will happen ON, it happens every year:)
Im there pat, save a place for me. Where it gonna be? Sod the knotts, I just wanna reverse the trailor.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 31 May 10 at 19:05
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"I just wanna reverse the trailor"
Lordy. Lock up your buses.
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Here we are
tiny.cc/5oh9h
It's at Brett's Transport Guyhirn PE13 4AG
You'll be very welcome Z and you will reverse a lorry:)
This could turn into a car4play meet the way it's going!
Just email me or let me know on here if you would like to come so we can have enough people around to give you one to one attention when you're driving:)
That is a lovely load HM, and seeing who you used to work for, it was one of the easier ones too:)
Used to see a lot of them in Trostra for coils some years ago and more recently, tin plate from Neath.
Pat
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>> This could turn into a car4play meet the way it's going!
>>
Would like to be there thoufgh cant make 31/07, how about stting a specific date later in the year? Either at Pat's yard or elsewhere.
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We'd be happy to do that if enough people we're interested Cheddar.
It may be difficult convincing another haulage boss to turn over his yard and new/nearly new lorries to a bunch of lorry drivers he doesn't know, and some drivers with no experience though.
If anyone has the powers of persuasion, though we may be able to do something:)
Pat
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Any chance of an email for contact Z?
I don't like to hijack the forum threads for details!
Pat
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If one of you sends the mods an email, we'll forward it on.
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send pat my email address dave.
Done
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 2 Jun 10 at 12:30
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Note for fenlander.
I seem to remember you wanting to do this, although I could be wrong!
I know you've been away during this discussion and just want to say email me at pat.nicholson@tiscali.co.uk if you're interested.
That goes for anyone else too:)
Pat
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I understand there at least three on here turning up. The driver of the dirtiest car will be buying lunch.
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The driver of the dirtiest car gets to park his trailer in the last available spot at the end of the day:)
Pat
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Id like to come, but unsure as yet to whether i'll be available on the day.
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>>THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
It sounds reasonable doesn't it?
But, it's not possible or sensible to design out every possible form of accident or risk of accident, and whenever we venture out onto the road, we HAVE to accept that we are taking a risk, and that we are utterly reliant on the vigilance of ourselves AND others.
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>> But, it's not possible or sensible to design out every possible form of accident or
>> risk of accident, and whenever we venture out onto the road, we HAVE to accept
>> that we are taking a risk, and that we are utterly reliant on the vigilance
>> of ourselves AND others.
>>
I agreed 100% with the sentiments.
Though if it is possible for car to be stuck under the front of a truck at motorway speeds without the truck driver being aware then we need to pay more attention in respect of design or be more vigilant
I am not being judgemental, it is simply not right that this should be able to happen.
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>> it is simply not right that this should be able
>> to happen.
>>
>>
I agree, but occaisionally a large aircraft crashes and kills hundreds despite all the safety systems. It is not right that this should happen but it is a risk, as is driving.
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>> I agree, but occaisionally a large aircraft crashes and kills hundreds despite all the safety systems. It is not right that this should happen but it is a risk, as
>> is driving.
>>
Tragically accident happen and we learn from them though I dont think that is the same point, the point is trucks and cars share the same space so the driver of one should be able to be aware of the other directly in its path, its direction of travel.
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>> >>THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
>>
>> It sounds reasonable doesn't it?
>>
>> But, it's not possible or sensible to design out every possible form of accident or
>> risk of accident, and whenever we venture out onto the road, we HAVE to accept
>> that we are taking a risk, and that we are utterly reliant on the vigilance
>> of ourselves AND others.
>>
>>
>>
Agreed, that's the point I was trying to make with my last paragraph.
Last edited by: Bazzabear on Sat 29 May 10 at 19:54
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>> If you're free on Saturday July 31st I will arrange >>
I shall be in North Wales on that date though I am not against the idea on the basis that half a dozen of this lot put their hands in their pockets in aid of a good cause.
Where is you yard Pat.
>> I only hope we can educate you too.>>
That is patronising Pat, there is no need for that, or shall I turn up on the bike and teach you a thing or two?
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First I want to apologise to Cheddar, I truly didn't mean to patronise you and maybe should have replaced 'educate' with 'show you how this works too'.
In my defense, I was ready to leave for a weekend in Kent and only returned late last night so please accept my apology.
The yard in on the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech at Guyhirn and you will really be very welcome.
I'd love it if you turn up on the bike and I'm always happy to learn a thing or two:)
Pat
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>> so please accept my apology.
>>
Accepted of course!
>> The yard in on the A47 between Peterborough and Wisbech at Guyhirn >>
That's well over 200 miles quite possible in a day though perhaps by car rather than bike ;-)
However as I said I am in North Wales on 31st July, perhaps let us all know if you arrange another similar day.
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I certainly will let you know, but think the bike may produce numb bum syndrome:)
Pat
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>>modern HGV's are not noisy in the cab
Compared with an old truck, yes, they're quiet. However, compared with a car, they aren't - my point was addressed at the car drivers who don't know what the environment in a truck cab is like.
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>> One of the things I like about this forum is that by and large there is no campaigning or grudge-bearing against bikers or truckers. >>
I agree though I dont think the defensive attitude taken by bikers and truckers is constructive, the attitude that car drivers are out to get them. After all to critisise one biker, trucker or car driver is is not a reflection on them all.
I ride a bike and a drive a car (and have driven a 7.5t before now) though I acknowledge that there are nutters in control of all types of vehicle, fortunately there are many more that are responsible road users.
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>> I agree though I dont think the defensive attitude taken by bikers and truckers is
>> constructive,
If someone makes what appears to be an uninformed comment about something you know about, it's only natural that you want to comment - isn't that what's been happening (usually)?
Last edited by: Focus on Sat 29 May 10 at 14:29
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>> If someone makes what appears to be >>
If someone says all bikers are nutters then I will spring to their, rather our, defense and I can understand truckers doing the same. Though when it matter of differring opinions around, say, one biker's actions it is not constructive if opinions all bikers simply rally in support of the biker. Each case on its merits.
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I'm not getting into any arguments, Cheddar does have a good point in the design of truck cabs, mainly regarding forward visibility...however some drivers sit as low as possible in the cab which exacerbates the problem.
Many years ago when i started truck driving cabs were lower with a few exceptions one of which i drove extensively Scammel Crusader which was almost as high as the truck in the clip, but in those old trucks the driver sat high up closer to the screen and looked down and i found the old designs far better for all round visibility.
Another thing that's vanished with the wholesale ditching of good British designed trucks is the windows to the n/s and rear of the cab, almost no trucks have a nsr window and the rear cab window rare as hens teeth and the few that are fitted the driver blocks off...something that i fail to understand as i like all windows clear of junk, it makes my job so much easier for blind side reverses and oblique junctions let alone the subject here.
Some even pull the drivers side window curtain half across the window and hide behind it, i can't work that one out either...must make clocking the lovely girls awkward, maybe blue lighters..;)
There will always be an area unseen except with down mirrors, however i wouldn't expect to be checking my front down mirror travelling at 55mph on an open motorway for trapped cars, maybe we should.
On the subject of car blind spots, i'll make an estimate that at least 30% of car drivers entering a major road from a slip road or merging roads have no idea whatsoever what is travelling on their right shoulder as it were as they meander aimlessly along that bit of narrowing track and only as the point of stop or go is reached do they think to have a look see, in their world the road is always clear.
It's staggering that they can not sense a 50ft long 40 ton vehicle that they are getting steadily closer to beside their right shoulder until they almost connect, then we have to go through the oft observed sequence of major drama swerve panic brake umbrage and then later overtake said truck and make rude gestures at the driver because he didn't give way to them or move over, the irony of other traffic the other side of that truck and the give way line they crossed failed to register anyway just like the truck involved.
I'm as critical of bad truck drivers as anyone, but the many thousands of excellent truck drivers can only do their best to take care of other drivers, you don't see high mileage or experienced competent car drivers putting themselves in the position of getting trapped.
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I want to know whats being done to protect toy bears and other stuffed animals.
I frequently see the poor creatures trapped on the front of trucks, clearly terrified. No-one is coming to thier aid, or championing thier cause.
Its disgraceful. I shall write to watchdog.
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I find little to argue with there, GB, but personally I feel a darn sight safer in my modern Volvo than I ever did in an Atkinson Defender, it's all very well sitting close to the screen but heaven help you if you run into something, or if someone runds into you.. I remember too many reports on accidents in days gone by, which ended with "the lorry driver was trapped/had to be cut out of his cab," sadly many didn't survive.
The only bit of padding on that Atki was the driver's seat, and that was thin enough; whole dashboard was solid, knobs and levers sticking out everywhere.
I do agree about the quarter windows though; mine has a rear window which of course is totally useless as all you can see is the headboard of the body; my old sleeeper cabbed FM had a window on the nearside of the bunk, very useful.
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Couldn't a mirror be put on the front that looks down, I've seen it on several trucks, possibly for parking? Whatever the reason they are already out there, at minimal cost.
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>> Couldn't a mirror be put on the front that looks down, I've seen it on
>> several trucks, possibly for parking?
Newer trucks already have them and some are very good indeed, thing is you don't expect to check for attached cars at cruising speed on a motorway.
HarleyM, i can't say i want to go back to a Mickey Mouse Foden either with a row of spring switches touching each knee cap, but the dash's could be lowered a bit, think of the Renault Magnum the driver sits very high in there and it looks like a commanding down view, not as i've tried one.
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So we want to introduce something to prevent something that didn't kill or hurt anyone? So what are those who want something done going to do about all the accidents that actually did kill or maim someone? Lets see, we can reduce all road speeds, ban certain vehicles from roads at certain times, speed limiters, large amounts of bubble wrap around all pedestrians... the list is endless...
I know that the above is very sarcastic, but I think we need to get our priorites right, there are many more things that need to be sorted before we even begin to look at solutions to this issue, which after all could have been just as likely to be caused by a negligent car driver... so what are we going to do about them?
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Hobby there are many potential accidents out there, and as you say impossible to cater for every possibility.
Thing is HGV's and other large vehicles are very dangerous things the potential for disaster when things go wrong is huge.
If by modifying and tweaking designs we help prevent any accidents along the way it's for the greater good.
Not so many years ago ABS systems were not fitted to trucks, i wonder just how many poor souls perished as an empty overbraked 40ft trailer came slicing down the road sideways.
I well rememeber going for MOT test with a truck after a poor lady was killed when applying the exhaust brake on a certain make of truck automatically applied approx 10% trailer braking pressure..it was viewed as a safety measure at the time but oversensitive trailer brakes caused a tragedy, the DOT immediately issued an instant GV9 for any vehicle found to have that system after the accident.
I see little objection from any sane person to maximise visibilty from a truck.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 30 May 10 at 11:08
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As far as I'm concerned when spending money to improve safety its about priorities... and in this case there is nothing from the story that leads me to believe that if both drivers had been concentrating on what they should have been doing (ie driving) it would never have happenned in the first place. HGVs don't creep up on you, if you are concentrating on driving you should be aware of your surroundings and have made plans to move out of the danger zone...
Sadly I have to agree with your earlier post that a large percentage of drivers just do not appreciate the danegr from an HGV or even bother to look when joining a motorway... To those that doubt that last bit I'd suggest that you approach a junction at a steady speed and see how many drivers actually adjust their speed to fit in rather than just expect you to move over.
One thing that does puzzle me though is the fact that she used her phone when being pushed down the motorway, my phone is not in a position where i could get it that quickly... and its also the last thing I'd be thinking about doing in that situation...
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John Tomlinson, the tanker driver involved gets a favorable write up on page 19 of this weeks Auto Express. Also praise for his "cool and calm" dealing with the situation.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 2 Jun 10 at 17:01
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So is the education day next Saturday still going ahead in Pat's yard??
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I *think* I have just been banned.
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and she has your email address as well!!
Think you should still all get together, have a group hug and then see how good you are at parking a lorry next to a Lancer estate........
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and if anyone crashes into it, I don't want the others stopping to have a look!!!! :)
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Fifi the fierce yard dog wil lbe there to smother saliva over anyone who gets too near to the Lancer.
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>> Think you should still all get together, have a group hug and then see how
>> good you are at parking a lorry next to a Lancer estate........
>>
Don't tempt me, the Ceed will be parked well clear!
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>> and she has your email address as well!!
I shall hire a C'e'e'D' (they are really cheap to hire) and pretend I am the real ON!
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You may need to, the Ceed my not get that far.
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Well done BobbyG, stirring at it's best, in my book.
It is going ahead, mainly because it's designed for newly qualified lorry drivers and NOT for members of the public.
The decision to allow some non lorry drivers to attend this year was mine.
It was obviously a bad decision, since it is now being held up for ridicule.
For your information there will be at least 10 of us giving up our Saturday, voluntarily, to do this. There has been hours of work and organising put into this by myself.
It is primarily to promote safer lorry drivers and to raise funds for our lorry drivers charity, which once more we put hours of work into without even payment of expenses.
Posts like yours make me wonder just why I bothered.
Posts like Zero's saying he doesn't want to know about lorry drivers make me wonder why he bothers to come.
Posts like these would certainly ensure that Brett's who allow us to use their equipment, wouldn't do so if they saw them.
Pat
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 4 Aug 10 at 01:13
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Ok enoughs enough.
I *really* cant take any more of these "drama out of a crisis" "mountain out of molehill" histerionics that explode without provocation.
There was no belittling of you or the event, I was going to contribute to your charity as I said I would, and I have a genuine desire to see what its like to handle a lorry.
I shant be coming Pat.
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That's entirely your choice Zero, but you are still very welcome.
All I ask is you make a decision to allow me to let someone else attend if you decide not to.
>>without provocation<<
I would question that one.
Pat
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Pat, Pat, Pat, I can assure you I was not stirring.
My original thread re rubberneck was as exactly as I explained and it got a bit heated.
I remembered that you and Zero, amongst others were having a get together and thought the way that thread had went was strange as you had met up.
I racked my brain to remember what thread it was that the meet was arranged, finally found this and realised the meet was not until next week which I thought was strange as I had not seen any more mention of it.
I posted on this, to bring it back to the top of the page, but also to maybe "calm things down" back to an agreeable friendly level.
The mention re parking next to Zero's car was just tongue in cheek banter.
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Well, the tactful thing would have been to have let it lie, as I have done.
There are a few car4play members coming but I have assured them that I wouldn't publicise that on the forum, and I won't.
This thread had nothing to do with the rubbernecking thread, just as what happens on an internet forum has nothing to do with what happens in the real world of next Saturday.
I'm big enough to look at it that way, apparently Zero feels differently.
Pat
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...The mention re parking next to Zero's car was just tongue in cheek banter...
Bobby,
I thought that was one of the more comical remarks I've read on here for a while.
The fact you feel the need to point out its humour shows how far some people are out of kilter around here.
I've had the rise taken out of me for buying an ugly car, or one that's suitable only for a hairdresser.
Am I upset? Course not - I'm flattered by the interest.
How anyone connected with this lorry drivers' test day, or whatever it is, can take any of the recent posts in this thread as a sleight on their activities is beyond me.
Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me.
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Don't you ever know when to shut up IIH?
Have you ever considered it may be you out of kilter?
No, thought not.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 22 Jul 10 at 18:50
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...Have you ever considered it may be you out of kilter?...
Me? I've never really fitted in anywhere, so I'm not going to start now.
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>>Me? I've never really fitted in anywhere, so I'm not going to start now.<<
(hahaha!) Join the club :D
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Lorry pushes car along motorway! - -
