Last October was my cars MOT
With over 120k miles -I knew I had to replace the headlights - as they hadn't worked for months , on an Espace, Renault quoted 1200 Each for XENON lights. -Yeah right !!
A week before the MOT the exhaust Fell off , it needed replacing immediately, shame I couldn't have got one off Ebay, or similar - £600 ish due to the cats - I then suffered radiator problems , and needed a new one fitted- this combined with the lights ( i bought some on ebay for £45 work brilliantly) and got the new radiator and new front disks and brakes ALL done by a local 1 man French specialist for £900 - then in December my battery needed replacing £85
When the snow was down, I noticed I had little grip, and upon checking had to buy 4 new tyres - because I thought all my works had been complete I spent 500+ on them.
Last monday week I went out to drive the car, it wouldn't start see my previous post - Mr AA came out 1.5hrs before towing it to Renault - where they spent 3 days trouble shooting before finding it needed a microchip ( micro it might be but expensive) including investigation and fitting around 900.
On friday they got it fitted, and apparantly is now loaded with my details so no use to anyone else - when they noticed the engine was noisy.
They rang me to say there was a " cracked manifold inlet " which to replace is about £300 but with problems associated with breaking glow plugs and necessary items is about 1k in total.
I have investigated getting a 2nd hand engine, been offered one from a scrapy 03/04 82k for 650 + vat , A Recon engine from "Engine World" for 1395 + Renault have quoted 1100 for fitting
now in hindsight back in August if Id known all the rest I'd have spent the 600+900+85+500+900 = nearly 3k already, either on a good holiday or a 2nd hand van - do I go for just the replacement inlet job that will cost a minimum 1200 or spend 2.5 on a recon and get it fitted.... or just go to bed and take a long drink.....
any suggestions - I live in Weybridge and will contact Hardys(Leatherhead and my 1 man on monday but what would you do
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 03:49
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Its an Espace. This has been building for some time. Its a pity you didnt check the "old place" for espace stories and done a runner a year ago.
Cut your losses. Ebay is the place for this while its still running and hasn't taken another 3 grand out of your pocket.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 18:50
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I am amazed you have let this carry on so long. You need to spend more time on car forums :) They make you wise.
Plus £1200 for a headlight? Did the dealer of an SW1 postcode?
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Did I read the OP correctly; the headlights hadn't worked for MONTHS?
I do hope he means something like the adjustment, and not the actual lights themselves; why leave it till the MOT?
Might I suggest, sir, that if and when you do replace the Espace, you pay a little more attention to checking its consumables on a more regular basis?
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 19:06
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when do you stop spending on a money pit ?? - Harleyman
Yesterday. :-)
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"Its an Espace. This has been building for some time. Its a pity you didnt check the "old place" for espace stories and done a runner a year ago. "
Or even looked at Which? - which rates the Espace as about the least reliable car on the market.
The answer to your question as to when to stop money, of course, depends on whether you are in love with the vehicle, or really want to get rid of it.
And if your heart isn't giving you an answer, then it's probably time for it to go.
Last edited by: tyro on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 19:38
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I am struggling with this.
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Speaking from experience wasting money on old cars :-)
I would ask firstly what possessed you to buy an Espace, were you perhaps drunk?
Secondly, what else is wrong with the car? I would make a full appraisal of whats looming as while spending more on this heap sounds madness, you may have fixed all the faults for now - for £3k you must have made some impression on it.
If you can get a couple more years outta the thing, you may recoup some value from it so I would say get the thing fully inspected, appraise yourself of all possible faults relating to these cars aswell as the usual and judge it on its merits.
Work out what its going to cost you to fix any outstanding faults, then balance this against what it would cost to replace it with something else, bearing in mind that what new car you buy may need a degree of work done too unless you spend alotta money on something very fresh.
Hindsight is wonderful and many may scoff, but Im sure you spent the money hoping it would be the end of it and the end never came, most people who have owned older cars will have experienced this, the trick is knowing when to stop.
My current car has needed a fair bit spending, but now ive fixed its little issues, is basically sound. Im not sure your Espace is though. I predict in 6 months time you will be here bemoaning a £5k total spend... me Im at £450 :)
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By the way, Wotspur - how old is it, and how long have you had it?
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I fail to see how a cracked inlet manifold would make an engine noisy. Do they mean exhaust? If so, I'd suggest a scrappy for another, just before you flog it.
Could this have been damaged when the exhaust was fitted, or perhaps not sealing properly to the new exhaust?
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Its a known issue on the Espace.
One of a very long list.
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January is not the time to get a high price for a pile of junk.
Clean it up properly and sell in Spring when more punters are about..
BTW.. I assume this is a windup as the list of money and sums involved suggest that - or too much vino?
Apologies if serious.. (but anyone who spends £3k on an Espace in 6 months!!!)
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To answer many replies to my initial listing
I have had the car from new, 2002 , but I was the unfortunate one who is now on the 4th engine, (see old listings found from HJ years ago- further down) - this current engine has done from 55k ish to 120, over the last 5 years with few problems baring normal services and tyres.
So when the exhaust went it was basic maintainence - who would change the car just because of an exhaust problem - then the headlights, yes they had been flickering for a while , but I rarely did late journeys and 2nd hand lights weren't readily available - it was lucky if you like that it was only the week before getting them changed that the radiator went -
so when the battery failed , has no other person at winter needd to change their battery... I think most of the recent problems have been unfortunate and un predicted.
So am I in love with the car - not really but it is comfortable to drive and I can't really afford to buy much else
so if you had 3k would you buy a vehicle that might be as unreliable or spend it on something you at least know the problems and one that you've already spent 3k on - NONE of which is worth much as a re sell
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wotspur - I don't know how much your Espace cost new in 2002, but I suspect many contemporary 'quality marque' alternatives would have been significantly more expensive. Very possibly as much as the 3k you have spent in repairs. To 'break even', such an alternative would have had to be completely fault-free during your ownership.
From a 'whole-life' cost perspective over eight or so years, it's probably worked out okay for you.
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>> I am struggling with this.
>>
Do not worry, someone with a similar name to OP had form on HJ from their very first post years ago.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=41237
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=41566
Last edited by: John H on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 20:16
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Ah a mindup...sorry a windup..
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The problem with Renaults in my experience is not so much the reliability, but what they cost to put right. Renault repair costs are in supercar territory.
Everything costs a grand. Or more.
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Crikey! But let's not pick on Wotspur - that's a story to frighten anyone nursing a car through its late middle age. My Volvo cost me close to £2,000 last November, after eight years and 114,000 miles without unscheduled repairs. I paid up with reasonable confidence that that would be that; I've had notice of a couple of more minor things coming up, but the money seems to have done the trick.
But who's to say? I still - for now - have a car that's worth more to me than to anyone else. But I also know that my car - like most other types - has a couple of other potential problems that could cost similar amounts to fix, and I wonder and I worry a bit.
So to try to answer the question, I suspect another four-digit problem might be my cue to part company, given that I don't plan to keep the car past its tenth birthday anyway.
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>> So to try to answer the question, I suspect another four-digit problem might be my
>> cue to part company, given that I don't plan to keep the car past its
>> tenth birthday anyway.
>>
IMHO most current cars will not make it much part 7 years old, due to the cost of repairs.
A grand for an ECU on a car worth £2500? naw....not worth spending it, because it will only be the start, as the OP has found out.
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>>IMHO most current cars will not make it much past 7 years old, due to the cost of repairs
This is why having a car with a strong aftermarket backup makes sense, because you can virtually obtain anything secondhand and at much more palatable prices.
And combining the above with a well engineered car that is relatively easy to work on.
My mechanic says that in the case of an older cars always go for quality, that way you know that all those hidden components, electrical connections, sensors e.t.c are going to stand the test of time.
There are plenty of cars out there that will last well beyond 7 years.
Last edited by: corax on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 21:30
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Betsy would have been 9 next month...
:-(
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my 190e is 20yrs old and never hadf a problem. they seem well built from the factory though so should last a few more yrsr
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>> Betsy would have been 9 next month...
>>
>> :-(
Not this again. I know she had a special place in your heart but you have to move on man - let sleeping dogs lie, and all that....
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And to think, he could have sold her to my lad....
The lyrics of maggie may spring to mind.
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When you posted about his Primera that thought crossed my mind actually. Good home and all that. Having said that, the chances are it'd have totally collapsed around him within a couple of months and I'd never have heard the last of it would I ?!
Re the OP's Espace, Just sell it. It won't get better.
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>> Re the OP's Espace, Just sell it. It won't get better.
Yes, I think I would have drawn the line at replacing the engine.
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Maggie Maggie May, they've taken her away and she'll never walk down Lime Street any more? or
She had a figure so divine; like a frigate of the line?
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>>The lyrics of maggie may spring to mind.
"Oh Maggie I wish I'd never seen your face
You made a first-class fool out of me"
????????
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and i was blind as a fool can be
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>> I know she had a special place in your heart but you
>> have to move on man>>
Its only a bit of bashed out tin, some oily bits, and a few seats.
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I thought you liked your cee'd :)
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>> I thought you liked your cee'd :)
>>
I do, but the same applies. Definitely no affection for a lump of iron. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 21:51
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>> Its only a bit of bashed out tin, some oily bits, and a few seats.
Now look here ON, just steady on...
:-)
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I should point out my friends clio is now on 90,000 miles. It has had one oil change in the past 40,000 miles and only just had its cambelt renewed. It has had a new waterpump and new plugs too. Despite the serious lack of servicing the engine now sounds like new and runs like new. She bought it at 30k something miles and has spent less than £600 on repairs including the recent full service including cambelt. In fact other than the camelt the biggest expense has been new front pads.
At 90k the discs are still like new, not a single mark on them. The clutch is warn though but that is her own fault for riding it. It is a top spec Clio too with all the luxeries (climate control etc) she paid £3500 for it at four years old (a friend offered it to her at the trade in price).
Her family bought her off saying buy a Toyota etc but I said at the price it is a bargain. The clio has needed a lot less work than any of her families Janpeneese stuff. She is now a Renault fan.
I am still staggered how well the car runs considered how badly the engine has been deglected. I think with Renaults like most French or Italian cars it is the bigger ones which have the most problems.
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Every car forum is full of Renault horror stories.
If they are that bad, how come they are still is business??
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>> Every car forum is full of Renault horror stories.
>>
>> If they are that bad, how come they are still is business??
>>
Firstly, no car marque is as bad as forum horror stories would suggest.
Secondly, even if they were, most people don't read forums or do any other meaningful research before buying a car.
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>> Every car forum is full of Renault horror stories.
Two friends of mine have owned Renaults, one a Megane, the other a Laguna. Both were still under guarantee. Both developed serious problems and spent much time off the road.
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Time for a moment of shared superiority: many customers choose their cars on the strength of finance packages, servicing and insurance promotions, of special editions with extra kit. I bought one that way myself, as a newly employed 21-year-old with no insurance record, and got a Ford Escort that served me very well. Check the adverts in your Saturday paper - it's Peugeot and Toyota in mine this week, but Renault and Citroen are often there too. It looks shiner than your old car, the monthly payments are manageable and they'll service it 'free' for the first three years. Find enough customers who work that way and you have a business model.
Back to big bills. When I had mine, colleagues commiserated but said things like, "It'll be worth it; Volvos go on for ever." I suspect people don't say that about Renaults, but is that enough to make a Volvo worth preserving and an Espace a money pit?
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>> Time for a moment of shared superiority: many customers choose their cars on the strength
>> of finance packages, servicing and insurance promotions, of special editions with extra kit.
The new Megane has been pushed recently. Rarely is there not a magazine that doesn't have it's seductive curves plastered over the page at some point linked with special deals. Or the odd detective programme sponsored by the 'New Renault Megane'. In the Auto Express Driver Power Survey it came fifth out of one hundred. "Best of all, it's proving very reliable". I should hope so, given they are at the most two years old! It's a nice looking car, but I'll be interested to see how all those bits underneath last.
>> Back to big bills. When I had mine, colleagues commiserated but said things like, "It'll
>> be worth it; Volvos go on for ever." I suspect people don't say that about
>> Renaults, but is that enough to make a Volvo worth preserving and an Espace a
>> money pit?
Volvo's do last a long time, but they aren't cheap to run. I've always thought the dealers charge a premium. The sort of person that owns a Volvo is usually flush enough to afford the bills, and comfort is one of their priorities, something Volvo has always done well*. And once a foible has been sorted they tend to be OK again for a while. The Espace seems to laugh in owners faces even when they've treated the thing.
* Am I right WDB, or have I got it all wrong?
:)
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>>If they are that bad, how come they are still is business??
Most cars are sold in France, where they are probably a lot cheaper to repair, and the French are loyal to the marque. Most cars sold here are Clio's, one of the more reliable models. The Espace always had a bad reputation.
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The Espace I had from new in 2002 was quite simply the worst car in terms of reliability I've ever had by a considerable margin.
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SQ
>> There are plenty of cars out there that will last well beyond 7 years.
>>
I agree entirely.
As you may recall I run a Yaris diesel. Almost all parts are available second hand - or non OE- at prices half Toyota's for new ones - or 25% of Toyota's if second hand.
Eg radiator for son's Yaris: Toyota £130. Ebay new £70 delivered. Back box exhaust Toyota £125, ebay £40 (from Germany)
But I looked to buy an Audi A2. Where parts are common with VW then prices are not too bad. BUT VW consumables cost twice Toyota's. Try to get any ABS part and you are talking £100s plus loads of aggro as the fitting has to be very precise.. and the list of owner's problems on their website vs the Yaris website is approx 3:1 (more Audi) despite Toyota selling at least 5 times as many Yaris as Audi sold A2s.
Son's Yaris is 11 years old. Bodywork is unrusted. All parts available cheap new or secondhand.. engines £300...etc.. And the electrical connectors work at 11 years old.
Ditto Fiestas.. and Micras (apart from rust). 12 years old Mercedes S class..? Brings a new meaning to moneypit.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 17:34
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Buying a car that's made by a company owned by the government is always a bad idea. We used to have BL.
Anything french is a money pit. Used to own a Citroen. Very comfortable car to be in but servicing and parts prices horrendous. Not the most reliable form of transportation either.
They're just not that good at making cars, let's face it.
Would you be able to concentrate on your work if you'd just had slugs for lunch? :)
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>> >>IMHO most current cars will not make it much past 7 years old, due to
>> the cost of repairs
>>
>> This is why having a car with a strong aftermarket backup makes sense, because you
>> can virtually obtain anything secondhand and at much more palatable prices.
I work in a dealer for a prestige make.
The top of the range cars are living into 10 years old, the lower models are getting written of at 7-10 years old due to, on the whole electrical issues.
>> And combining the above with a well engineered car that is relatively easy to work
>> on.
>>
Yeah.... for people with the correct tools.
Not always easy to obtain said tools, and often no way around using them.
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>> I work in a dealer for a prestige make.
>> The top of the range cars are living into 10 years old, the lower models
>> are getting written of at 7-10 years old due to, on the whole electrical issues.
I take it that wouldn't be Lexus then?
>> Yeah.... for people with the correct tools.
>> Not always easy to obtain said tools, and often no way around using them.
You go to a specialist. They are usually able to obtain any special tools.
Last edited by: corax on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 12:16
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Tthanks for MOST of the responses - prior to this Espace, I'd had 2 others,and a Peugeot 806 over the last 20 years from 2nd hand to new without ANY major problems -
In HINDSIGHT I should have bought a van , but at the time the style and design of the Espace suited my requirements, but those have changed since 2002
In hindsight, last Oct I should have bought something else, but each unrelated problem came one at a time- Ive spent the money and feel loathe just to off set it, as funds are really tight
so do I now buy a 3k van - if so what could I be looking for
or spend 1500-3k on a recon engine, a 2nd hand from ebay or similar
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Commercial vehicles make very strong money because even a battered van is useful, whereas a battered car has less kerb appeal. I wouldnt start spending in the £3k range on vans, its a minefield.
Better to spend it on another MPV, but maybe not an Espace, maybe a Honda Shuttle which comes highly recommended. £3k would get a lovely example.
Last edited by: stunorthants29 on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 14:42
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I'd have to say stop.
The inlet manifold leak, is it able to be filled as a semi permanent repair...say 6 months worth, which would give you time to tart it up and a bit and get rid.
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It's just occured to me that the advice to anyone buying a car is the same as the advice when gambling - never spend more than you can afford to lose.
If you think you can afford a new car, that means being able to afford a succession of high-priced main agent repairs and spares. You might be lucky, but that's the game you are in. If you have to ask when to stop, then you can't afford it.
I buy tried and tested old cars that I am familiar with, and have lots of spares left over from the previous one. They pay for themselves in useage terms in one year, but being Volvos that tends to mean 5, 10 or 15 years. I wouldn't spend more than £1000 on the whole car. I can afford to lose that.
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>> so do I now buy a 3k van - if so what could I be looking for?
www.ukmgparts.com/carsale.aspx?PID=764DF3C8-00BB-4BB8-B4A1-64AAB783708D
These classic MG specialists are selling their 8-year old parts delivery Sprinter van. It's only done 15,000 miles a year and they have a reputation to keep so it will be immaculately presented and maintained.
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Heck wotspur, this is a real dilemma for you isn't it ?
My own opinion would be "amateur", but it occurs to me that my chosen Indy is a Renault specialist, I have no connection other than a completely satisfied customer, and they may be too far away from you, but they were originally recommended to me ( when i had a Renault Master van ) by probably the best mechanic i have ever met in over 40 yrs motoring, ( one of the co-owners was his first foreman )
Hope i am allowed to post this link, they may be at least worth a phone call, i am sure they would be happy to advise you.
www.steadfastautos.co.uk/index.html
cheers .. S.
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when do you stop spending on a money pit ?? - Zero
