analysis reveals that modern diesel cars are actually better for the environment than battery ones.
pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es903729a
The revelations come in a new report issued by Swiss government research lab EMPA, titled Contribution of Li-Ion Batteries to the Environmental Impact of Electric Vehicles. The Swiss boffins, having done some major research into the environmental burdens of making and disposing of li-ion batteries - to add to the established bodies of work on existing cars - say that battery manufacture and disposal aren't that big a deal. However, in today's world, with electricity often made by burning coal or gas, a battery car is still a noticeable eco burden:
The main finding of this study is that the impact of a Li-ion battery used in [a battery-powered car] for transport service is relatively small. In contrast, it is the operation phase that remains the dominant contributor to the environmental burden caused by transport service as long as the electricity for the [battery car] is not produced by renewable hydropower ...
A break even analysis shows that an [internal combustion engined vehicle] would need to consume less than 3.9 L/100km to cause lower [environmental impacts] than a [battery car] ... Consumptions in this range are achieved by some small and very efficient diesel [cars], for example, from Ford and Volkswagen.
Actually quite a lot of the new diesels are in the better-than-battery ballpark, according to UK government figures. The notional battery car considered by the EMPA analysts was a Volkswagen Golf with its normal drivetrain replaced by a battery one: but it seems that you would be doing slightly better for the environment to buy an ordinary new Golf with a 1.6 litre "BlueMotion" injected turbodiesel - which would be a lot cheaper. That would consume 3.8 l/100km, not 3.9.
So would a new Mini Cooper D hatchback or a new Ford Focus, actually. And if you could bear to go for something a little smaller - VW Polo rather than Golf - you'd be streets ahead on the environmental front, down as low as 3.4 l/100km with more than 15 per cent of the car's in-service emissions clipped off compared to the 3.9 l/100km battery-car baseline. As the Swiss boffins tell us, it's the in-service energy use and emissions which count most.
You could even treat yourself to a small estate car - the Skoda Fabia - and beat a battery Golf by a large margin in terms of eco-credentials, according to the EMPA analysis.
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Yep, I read somewhere a while ago that a diesel Mini built in Oxford has far less environmental impact over its lifespan than, say, a Prius, for UK drivers at least.
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And then you see hybrid Priuses (Priii ?) being thrashed up the fast lane of the motorway where their petrol motor will be performing a lot worse than a diesel.
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>> And then you see hybrid Priuses (Priii ?) being thrashed up the fast lane of
>> the motorway where their petrol motor will be performing a lot worse than a diesel.
I have to say, most Priuses I see are doing 90+ in lane three. Frustrated company car drivers saving BIK tax perhaps?
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Yes I remember this article from 2008...
tinyurl.com/6cqopd
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Depends where your starting point for measuring and comparison is.
tinyurl.com/2vqtbft (Telegraph link) shows some surprisingly dirty small engined cars when hydrocarbons and NOx are considered.
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Until other countries clean up their emissions I don't give a stuff what my car puts out. I have been to many places where cars, trucks, busses, trains, boats, diesel powered electricity generating plants, and all manner of diesel using machines are not regulated at all. The UK is a tiny little island and its contribution to world pollution is minute, why should we be held responsible for the worlds pollution, (other than an excuse to tax us more).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 11:41
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No doubt once (if) electric cars become more widely adopted the government will dig up this research to justify higher taxes on electric cars to bring them into line with IC cars.
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>> The UK is a tiny little island and its contribution to world pollution is
>> minute, why should we be held responsible for the worlds pollution, (other than an excuse
>> to tax us more).
>>
Pollution is not based on the size of the country, more on the population/industrialisation.
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>>
>> A break even analysis shows that an [internal combustion engined vehicle] would need to consume
>> less than 3.9 L/100km to cause lower [environmental impacts] than a [battery car] ... Consumptions
>> in this range are achieved by some small and very efficient diesel [cars], for example,
>> from Ford and Volkswagen.
>>
>> Actually quite a lot of the new diesels are in the better-than-battery ballpark, according to
>> UK government figures. The notional battery car considered by the EMPA analysts was a Volkswagen
>> Golf with its normal drivetrain replaced by a battery one: but it seems that you
>> would be doing slightly better for the environment to buy an ordinary new Golf with
>> a 1.6 litre "BlueMotion" injected turbodiesel - which would be a lot cheaper. That would
>> consume 3.8 l/100km, not 3.9.
>>
>> So would a new Mini Cooper D hatchback or a new Ford Focus, actually. And
>> if you could bear to go for something a little smaller - VW Polo rather
>> than Golf - you'd be streets ahead on the environmental front, down as low as
>> 3.4 l/100km with more than 15 per cent of the car's in-service emissions clipped off
>> compared to the 3.9 l/100km battery-car baseline. As the Swiss boffins tell us, it's the
>> in-service energy use and emissions which count most.
>>
Come back to the real world Zero, not the government/manufacturers statistics
Look at road tests for mpg figures, they are more realistic.
There isn't an automatic, diesel or petrol, car that will come anywhere near a Prius on mpg. The Prius flying up the motorway at 90mph is still getting 45-50mpg and running an atkinson cycle engine, produces less emissions than a miller cycle engine.
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> The Prius flying up the motorway at 90mph is still getting 45-50mpg
A 1.5 pulling a hundred kilos of batteries along? In your dreams my old son, your prius flying up the motorway is lucky to nudge 40mpg. probably not reaching it.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 13:39
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analysis reveals that modern diesel cars are actually better for the environment than battery ones.
Well, some modern diesels. Those that are more economical than 3.9 L/100km - i.e. 72.4 mpg.
Last edited by: tyro on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 13:40
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>> Come back to the real world Zero, not the government/manufacturers statistics
>> Look at road tests for mpg figures, they are more realistic.
>> There isn't an automatic, diesel or petrol, car that will come anywhere near a Prius
>> on mpg.
Did you actually read the BMW 520d vs Prius article in the earlier link?
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seeing as talk of $250 a barrel is being mentioned in the new order of the world and china buying up effluent debt in euro member countries to keep the euro alive i dont think we need worry about diesel versus electric power
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>> Did you actually read the BMW 520d vs Prius article in the earlier link?
>>
Yes, but the 520D was a MANUAL gearbox, the Prius is an AUTOMATIC, compare like for like.
Also, Jason Dawe test driving a Prius, gimme a break, it might as well have been Jezza or the Stig.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 18:52
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I assume you have a prius Kithmo?
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>> I assume you have a prius Kithmo?
>>
Yes a Gen 3, how did you guess ;0)
P.S. the prius in the link was the old Gen 2, 1.5 model, the Gen 3 1.8 is better on MPG and emissions.
Last edited by: Kithmo on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 14:09
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>> >> I assume you have a prius Kithmo?
>> >>
>> Yes a Gen 3, how did you guess ;0)
Just a feeling.
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Something along the lines of "it can do no wrong" perhaps...
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>> >> I assume you have a prius Kithmo?
>> >>
>> Yes a Gen 3, how did you guess ;0)
>> P.S. the prius in the link was the old Gen 2, 1.5 model, the Gen
>> 3 1.8 is better on MPG and emissions.
>>
You carry on saving your world, I will stay in my realistic one. :-)
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>>
>> You carry on saving your world, I will stay in my realistic one. :-)
>>
Sorry if this sounds selfish, but TBH, I don't really care much about saving the world, the state it's in now, I bought the Prius because I like technology, it's reliable and it's cheap to run. E.g. No VED, low insurance, high mpg, low servicing costs.
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Yeah but it cost 20,000 to buy.
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>> Yeah but it cost 20,000 to buy.
>>
Doh !, er, you got me there. It was £22K actually, it's the T-Spirit but residuals are good and as they are becoming more acceptable as an everyday car, I think they may be even better than they were.
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>> Yeah but it cost 20,000 to buy.
>>
>>
>>
What, could have bought a real car for that !
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But all of us could buy a cheaper car, Z. Apart from bathtub tom of course.
The matter of how much you're willing to blow on a car purchase isn't really the issue here. The running costs of the car you're going to spend your 22k on will probably come in to the decision, as I'm sure they did when you bought your Bitsofmushi, and in Kithmo's case it was evidently the deciding factor, seeing as there are dozens of cars I'd have before a Pious if I were spnding 22k.
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It is the issue really. You pay a premium for the technology,
Sticking with Toyota.
The Auris is listed at 12k for the regular, 19k for the hybrid.
Avensis 16k, Prius 20k
They have dropped the LS400/LS400h, all the big lexi are now hybrids, where you can hide the extra cost under toys.
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"Yes, but the 520D was a MANUAL gearbox, the Prius is an AUTOMATIC,"
There's a funny thing. If Toyota was so keen to push the virtues of hybrid technology - including how economical it was - why did they not make the Prius available with a manual gearbox?
And am I right in thinking that Toyota / Lexus have not made any of the hybrids they sell in the UK available with a manual gearbox?
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Is that because a hybrid car can not have a gearbox?
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Just goes to prove it's all a marketing exercise aimed at suggestible Yanks.
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>> "Yes, but the 520D was a MANUAL gearbox, the Prius is an AUTOMATIC,"
>>
>> There's a funny thing. If Toyota was so keen to push the virtues of hybrid
>> technology - including how economical it was - why did they not make the Prius
>> available with a manual gearbox?
>>
>> And am I right in thinking that Toyota / Lexus have not made any of
>> the hybrids they sell in the UK available with a manual gearbox?
>>
It doesn't work like that, it's not a gearbox its a Hybrid Synergy drive. It works on a set of planetary gears connecting an engine, an electric motor and an electric motor/generator, all computer controlled to give a similar effect to a CVT gearbox, putting the petrol engine in the most efficient rev range at all times. Toyota market it as an ECVT (electronic continuously variable transmission). To add a gearbox would take away the facility to use electric only mode so it would function like a Honda Insight (automatic) or the Honda Civic IMA (manual) where the engine runs all the time the car is moving and only stops when the car is stationary.
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>> It doesn't work like that, it's not a gearbox its a Hybrid Synergy drive. >>
I may be a gadget freak but its a car, an A to B transport device, why do you need to drag all that junk around as well ? At least it isn't a 4X4 that would only be useful for a few days a year (maybe).
When the big fleets buy them by the thousand you will know they are cost effective, over three years at least.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 15:16
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>>
>> I may be a gadget freak but its a car, an A to B transport
>> device, why do you need to drag all that junk around as well ?
All that junk weighs around the same more or less as a gearbox, the extra weight is only the battery.
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Unless automatic transmission is a deal breaker, I still can't see the point of all this over a good diesel, that is unless you do a significant majority of your driving in stop/start city traffic.
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I imagine in some circumstances, a hybrid like a Prius would be fantastically economical to run. A modern diesel with a bias towards economy must take some beating at motorway speeds though. I was reading a review of a new Seat in the Guardian magazine at the weekend; the fuel efficiency offered by the new generation diesels is incredible! On a related note, my father in law has a Honda Civic IMA and on long runs, used to give significantly fewer MPG than my old BX TD!
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a real alternaive would be a diesel hybrid, but no one makes them.
I have no idea why ?
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 17:05
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There is an enormous degree of hypocrisy with hybrid cars.
There's no way on this planet that a well thrapped hybrid up a m/way will get anywhere near an equivalent diesel comparison...and neither would the average lengthy 'A' road journey either. There's no point whatsoever having one unless you do regular city centre stuff.
Then there's the real world comparitors. Where was the hybrid built, how far has it travelled to get to the donor country, what's gone in to the making of the vehicle e.g. divide the cost of the fuel of the ship that brought it here into the real life cost of the vehicle.
Same as the re-charging costs of an electric one, it's powered by coal in part.
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The overall greenest motorists on here will be those who run bangers.
Fair play to Kithmo, he says he bought his Prius mostly because he likes the idea of one.
Can't argue with that - it's how I buy my cars.
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I would consider a Prius if I did more urban driving. I like the acceleration kick from rest from the electric motor and the silent gliding at 50km/h with the engine switched off. I also liked the bonkers dashboard in the Series 2 model. As mentioned above, the batteries add a weight penalty but the car does not have a clutch, torque converter or gearbox as it uses what in other cars is the differential to marry the electric motor, the petrol engine and the generator. For me it's the most desirable thing Toyota presently offer
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I note the perceived retained value of the Prius - I think this will be a point to watch keenly. If more and more hybrids make it onto the market, at gradually falling purchase prices, then surely the increased number on the used market will cause their value to fall? Factor in doubts about the longevity of the batteries and that will help values fall further. A brave decision for the private motorist at the moment I think.
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I had quite a long argument with Prius owner about this. He asked what mpg I got, so that he could boast about getting 63mpg as opposed to my average of 22 (it was my old thirsty Focus at the time).
I countered by asking how many miles per year he drove. He told me 30,000, so I pointed out that even at his 63mpg I would use less fuel over the year simply by virtue of driving less. He soon shut up.
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Some years ago, when the slightly Japanesey (but pleasing-looking all the same) Series 1 Prius had been out for a year or so, one of the doctors in my London practice, an Asian lady pleasant and good at her work, acquired one new or nearly new. I asked her what it was like. She said it was all right.
She's still got it I noticed the other day. The things are solid.
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And there are countless other cars that have been owned for a similar period. What does it tell us that's specific to the Prius debate?
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It's as good as other cars over a ten-year period. Batteries either good for ten years or affordable by a not very rich young GP. The car would have spent most of its working life in London I would think.
True though Woodster, some cars are merely 'owned' while others are used. This is one of the latter I imagine.
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The Prius has consistently done very well, even by the standards of other Japanese cars, in the reliability statistics compiled by Consumer Reports in the USA.
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This seems to have become a battle between Diesel and Prius.
I don't own a Prius but i like them for how they drive, silent silky smooth take off which is very controllable making tight manoeuvering and traffic a pleasure..you have to feel carefully for the engine to fire up such is the refinement of the drive, the most economical Diesel auto's have some form of automated clutch hell box and in traffic/manoeuver are quite unpleasant.
I wouldn't buy one to belt up the motorway, and comparing them with Diesels purely on motorway or main road thrashing is not realistic for the majority of people who buy them (as against company car thrashers).
I've been keeping an eye on various Toyota forums and one Prius specific forum and some of them in taxi use have attained huge mileages without serious problems, so far the batteries seem to be holding their own.
To be honest i don't know how much a set of batteries would cost (does anyone, can you get aftermarket?), but if they last 7 or 8 years which they seem to do then should a set cost £2k, that compares quite well with likely repair costs for the average Diesel over the same period...DMF/clutch/DSG repair and any other costs...the Diesel may not need them however, indeed some here cover hundreds of thousands of miles without ever encountering a problem, but some don't and the costs to fix modern Diesels can be eye watering.
I will seriously consider a Prius 3, but i shall be researching further the whole life costs of running one.
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I looked at the latest Prius and specifically made the nice Toyota man look up the price of replacement batteries should they ever be required. Took a lot of doing, but he did in the end get the info.
Seven thousand was the quote.
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>> Seven thousand was the quote.
>>
>>
Plus VAT ?
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>> >> Seven thousand was the quote.
>> >>
>> >>
>> Plus VAT ?
>>
AAARGH!
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>> Seven thousand was the quote.
Gulp...in the back of mind i can hear Lionel Bart singing...'i think i'd better think it out again''
Reviewing the situation.
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To be fair, GB, that was if every cell had failed, and he said if the battery failed at all it was more likely to be just one cell, which makes a difference.
But I'd already decided 23k was WAY over my budget.
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I'm still swooning over that figure CC, not easy to find information though.
textio.co.uk/cars/toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-costs/
This seems to quote Prius 1 and 2 battery replacement much less.
Doubt i'd be spending 23K either, used my man.
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Battery packs are currently rumoured to be in the £3k range and last 8-10 years or 150-200K miles. But when you think about it, if the battery lasts for 8-10 years then £3k for another 8-10 years is not a lot. In fact it's a lot less than the depreciation on most new cars in the first 6-9 months (or less).
Automatic transmission was a big factor in my decision as I have problems with my left knee which makes it painful to press a clutch pedal sometimes, especially in traffic. I had a Mk3 Mondeo TDCi manual which gave me 40 mpg winter and 45mpg summer on my 3 mile commute to work and near 60 mpg best on a long run (55mpg at 70mph on motorways), until my knee problem. But it was like sitting on a time bomb, was the DMF going to fail, were the injectors going to go out of code etc. I then upgraded to Mk4 2.0 TDCi Auto which gave me 28 mpg winter and 32 mpg summer on my commute and 55 mpg best on a run (nearer 50 mpg at motorway speeds). But as you probably know the Mk4 Mondeo is a large cumbersome car and although it handled well when pushed, it always felt as if it was straining to pull the bulk of it about and the DPF filter was always in the back of my mind, was I going to block it with my regular short runs.
The Prius has everything I need for my short commute (except the heated front screen I miss from the Mondeos) and is the easiest car in the world to drive. It has more rear legroom than the Mondeo did even though it's smaller and it's quicker than the Auto Mondeo (except top speed) especially from a standstill, it can suprise many boy racers if I'm in the mood ;0)
I will admit that if I had to do many motorway miles everyday then a small diesel would be my choice every time, but doing 6K miles of short urban with the odd run to the seaside, then it has to be the Prius.
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Interesting post there Kithmo, what fuel figures do you see from your Prius given your short commute.
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Over the 8 months I've had it, it's averaged 52 mpg, the worst through the snow and ice, letting the car idle to defrost/demist the screens, it did 43 mpg and the best tank I had in the Summer was 59 mpg all calculated by brimming the tank, the trip shows about 5% better.
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My diesel averages 43mpg around town and 50mpg on the motorway, I have never been accused of holding up the traffic.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 21:50
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>> My diesel averages 43mpg around town and 50mpg on the motorway, I have never been
>> accused of holding up the traffic.
>>
43mpg was my worst, average 52mpg around town in an AUTOMATIC and I get 55mpg minimum on the motorway at 70mph and I never hold up traffic, I travel at ;0) the limits.
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Many thanks for that K, some real life short commute figures, our two Diesels took a tremendous nose dive in the really cold snap too, the Hilux dropping to 20mpg over the month, even the C2 only managed 45mpg in the same period, again brim to brim.
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Auris hybrid has better figures and cheaper than Prius.
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>> Auris hybrid has better figures
You'd have to be it's mother to love it, can't quite understand why an apparently highly paid design team wasn't kicked all round the boardroom for coming up with that ungainly shape.
I quite like the car itself, and you're not looking at it from the driving seat, but there are limits.
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You can't compare a Prius with a turbo diesel for urban use, the Prius is much nicer, that's why it sells so well in America. No turbo lag and no horrible diesel clatter. Even if a diesel with automatic eeks 1 or 2 mpg more out of a tankful around town, the Prius is a nicer drive which would swing it for me even if it's a very long way from being perfect.
I think Toyota sell the Prius short trying to market it as a tree hugger's car. They should emphasise the driving experience which, if you're not expecting Porsche handling, is pretty unique.
No way I would take an Auris Hybrid though, what were Toyota thinking. Awful styling, nasty interior and (in Germany anyway) very high prices.
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>> much nicer, that's why it sells so well in America.
It only sold in California, because it was film star chic. It never really sold anywhere else, and now its not chic, sales have fallen through the floor.
More minis have been sold than priiuiseses in the states.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 19 Jan 11 at 23:26
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>> More minis have been sold than priiuiseses in the states.
Eh?
New car sales USA December 2010:
Mini 4,320
Toyota Prius 15,639
New car sales USA total 2010:
Mini 45,644
Toyota Prius 140,928
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Ok I lied, but mini sales are rising and prius sales are falling.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 20 Jan 11 at 00:01
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>> You can't compare a Prius with a turbo diesel for urban use, the Prius is
>> much nicer, that's why it sells so well in America. No turbo lag and no
>> horrible diesel clatter. Even if a diesel with automatic eeks 1 or 2 mpg more
>> out of a tankful around town, the Prius is a nicer drive which would swing
>> it for me even if it's a very long way from being perfect.
>>
That's your opinion.
Personally, I can't stand the whine that you get from CVT gearboxes on any car - hybrid or otherwise, and so that would rule it out for me. Having said that, a whine quiet suits the 'character' of a Pious.
Diesels don't sell in America. Period. (Those septics are just sooo enlightened, aren't they :-0 ) That's why the Prius has very little competition in the US when it comes to 'economy/green' cars.
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The Prius hasn't got a CVT gearbox. So any whining is imaginary.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Thu 20 Jan 11 at 13:26
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>> The Prius hasn't got a CVT gearbox. So any whining is imaginary.
>>
Milk floats whine, so do trolley busses.
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>> The Prius hasn't got a CVT gearbox. So any whining is imaginary.
>>
Kithmo said his has an ECVT (Electronic Continously Variable Transmission).
Then perhaps the whining was the driver, frustrated at not driving a nice manual diesel?
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>> Auris hybrid has better figures and cheaper than Prius.
>>
As mentioned above, it doesn't look as good as the Gen 3 Prius and it's got a lot less boot space and a little less rear legroom.
A work colleagu has an Auris Hybrid as a company car (and he drives it like a company car !), his commute is 30 miles each way by motorway and he is averaging 52mpg. This is about the same as he was getting with his Mini Diesel manual but he now pays less company car tax and has a more relaxed drive. He does about 30K miles a year and petrol is 4-5p cheaper per litre than diesel so he is saving a bit there as well.
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>> All that junk weighs around the same more or less as a gearbox, the extra
>> weight is only the battery.
>>
As the Prius hasn't got a "normal" car to compare with, I looked at the Auris... the Hybrid version is 100kg heavier than the normal i/c version... so you can assume the same of the Prius if they did a normal i/c version...
Its also worth mentioning that the Prius is a slippery little sod when it comes to the coefficient of drag, at .25... It would be interesting to see how much it would benefit an i/c car if they were that good and not over .3 as most are... Not such a level playing field at the moment...
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So "Diesels greener than battery cars" is true for electricity generated by fossil fuel resources, but not when it's generated by "green" methods such as nuclear, renewables, wind, water, what-have-you.
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>> So "Diesels greener than battery cars" is true for electricity generated by fossil fuel resources,
>> but not when it's generated by "green" methods such as nuclear, renewables, wind, water, what-have-you.
>>
How do you tell the difference, is the electricity green in colour? :-)
With the average annual wind speed in my area, (I live about 500ft above sea level) a garden wind turbine (fan) is not financially viable.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 20 Jan 11 at 11:20
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My understanding is that no wind turbine would be financially viable at the moment without substantial subsidies from the tax-payer.
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I have to respect the view of those that like the Prius and the fact that car makers seek to make 'greener'cars. However, the Prius is a 1.8 litre, 98 hp petrol driven car. It's going nowhere without petrol. I think the official claim is 70 mpg. A BMW 320d 'efficient dynamics' is a 161 hp, torque laden Diesel. 69 mpg amd 109 g/km, dirty old beast. Poor old prius. It's a bit like the ugly girl at the party. Someone will do the deed!
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"It's a bit like the ugly girl at the party. Someone will do the deed!"
Me.
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and after how many beers ?
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>> However, the Prius is a 1.8 litre, 98 hp petrol driven car. It's going nowhere without petrol.
AUTOMATIC & 134 bhp with the (torque laden) electric motor.
A BMW 320d 'efficient dynamics' is a 161 hp, torque laden Diesel. 69 mpg amd 109 g/km.
MANUAL & if you use all those 161 horses you ain't gonna get anywhere near 69 mpg.
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If you use all those 98 horses (whoa!, steady now.....) you won't get the Prius economy either. I respect your choice. My point is, the Prius runs on petrol and absolutely nothing else. That it may recapture some of the energy used from burning petrol and store it as electricity is a bit of a side show. It runs on petrol and has an overall economy figure and emissions figure. That's a starting point for comparison with other cars. Looks, space, driving feel, depreciation are all other points for comparison. I also rather suspect that the emissions figure benefits from the urban part of the test. I can't believe it's below the 100g/km at 70 mph, or at any other speed where the electrics have given way to the engine. There seem to be precious few reviews where the Prius achieves it's claimed economoy. I note particularly the Prius v. BMW 520D from London to Geneva, with the BMW having better economy. The start of this thread was the scientists stating that small diesels are less polluting, but they could be wrong.
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If you are just going purely on the quoted figures then its worth looking at the latest technology that seems to be coming with the "green" (!) versions of diesel cars, engine stop/start... I know its been around for a while but recent reviews seem to indicate that they've got it sorted... Current Fabia Estate is 68 urban, 94 extra and 83 combined... and its got a bigger boot than the Prius...
Depends if you want quiet auto or can stand the noise of the diesel and having to change gear... personal preference...
I've just been looking at some Prius Forums and its interesting seeing the figures most of them are getting which is in the early to mid 50s... I'm getting that from my Roomster which is a much more versatile car all round...
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and cheaper to buy I bet !
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Considerably... TBH thats my major issue with Hybrids and Electric cars... It will take far too long to recoup the initial extra outlay, as most people don't tend to keep their car for more than a few years any saving on fuel (which is debatable) and tax (which is peanuts) it just doesn't make economic sense to by a hybrid or electric...
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Diesels greener than battery cars - Dave_
