Reading the discussions about Lidl own brand screen wash made me think.
You can buy supermarket own brand products like beans and bread and even electronic gadgets so why don't the major car makers produce a value car for the masses?
Something that would be cheap to buy, dirt cheap to insure and pennies to run., a bit like a modern equivalent of the Ford model T.
Just doing a quick web search I found one car priced between £4k - £6k, A Perodua but even this comes with electric front windows, a CD player, central locking and a rear parking sensor as standard. Others up to the £8k range have Ipod holes and power steering too, so if a car was made which had none of these things, came in just two colours, say red and blue, had skinny tyres and vinyl covered mdf panels instead of fancy padding, vinyl seats and no carpets, would it appeal if you were determined to 'get motoring' in a brand new car for a pittance?
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This car exists already. Dacia Logan. Only they don't sell it in the UK.
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Used car price is already very low in UK compared to other countries (not just Europe but whole world).
But I think withing next few years, supermarkets will start selling cars. But don't think they will sell their own make rather they will be dealership of multiple makes.
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A value car with only the basics is something that many people would think is a great idea, but none would actually buy.
Even if you could price it at four grand you would be competing with second hand cars that still have possibly ten years of life left and come with all the modern comforts.
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In reality the Perodua will be even cheaper, the basic Panda was £5995 for a while for that you got:-
Twin airbags
ABS with EBD
Electric Windows
Power steering
CD Player with four speakers
Central locking
Good solid build quality
12v output
£30 to tax each year.
etc
There is a versions old in Europe which has none of those things apart from an Airbag but FIAT felt it would not sell in the UK and didn't market it. Even at £5995 people still moaned that it didn't have air conditioning!
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 7 Jan 11 at 22:46
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'would it appeal if you were determined to 'get motoring' in a brand new car for a pittance?'
No it wouldn't. Your running cost would be much the same and you could get a decent second hand car for the same price.
It wouldn't appeal to the car manufacturers either there are already very small margins at the bottom of the market. A very basic car would not cost much less to produce than the bottom of the range vehicles already available and there would not be huge reduction in price. It would still have to comply with all the current safety requirements, airbags, ABS, etc.
A choice of colours, a basic CD player, and carpet instead of rubber mats only cost a few pounds. Electric windows are probably cheaper to manufacture than those with manual winders.
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Remember back in the 1970's, when Ford and Vauxhall competed with each other to produce the "least-frills" car? We ended up with horrors like the Escort Popular, and a Viva (forget the tag) which only had a driver's side sun visor.
It then emerged that these cars were either more expensive, or at least no cheaper, to produce than the "base" model. The Japanese never bothered; they simply produced their base model with a higher spec than a British mid-range model, and swept the board.
Car buyers these days expect a minimum standard of equipment which would have been in the Ghia class not so many years ago. That will only go upwards, not down.
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In the 80s Ford had the Popular and Popular Plus trims. The Plus for example would have the rear-wash wipe. How bad were cars back then?
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The original 1976 Fiesta Populars didn't even have brake servos either, not sure if all the UK ones did.
My mate had a 1990 Fiesta Popular, no rear wipe, no glove box but it did have ABS as it was a fleet car.
The original populars had no head rests either, in fact the only luxery you got was a heater and even then the controls were poor.
In contrast my dads Lada had a lot of luxeries for a 1987 car which cost less than a brand new Fiesta Popular new.
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I very much doubt that a 1990 Fiesta Popular had ABS, Rattolo? ABS didn't become mainstream until the mid-90s IIRC?
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It did have ABS, ABS was an option on all MK3 Fiestas from their introduction in 1989. This was just very unusual being a popular. It was a machanical ABS system rather than the modern computerised ones.
It was highly unusual for such a basic car to have ABS I admit. It surprised us both when he discovered that.
Even in the mid 90's it wasn't mainstream, you're average Escort or Astra didn't have it. The only car I have had with is the Panda and is only because it is now a legal requirement.
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>> It did have ABS, ABS was an option on all MK3 Fiestas from their introduction in 1989.
Correct, I had 3 early Mk3 Fiestas. A 1989 1.1L, a 1990 XR2i and a 1991 XR2i (after someone drove into the previous one and wrote it off). All had ABS.
Ford used an electromechanical control system rather than the electronic system used in the Sierra and Granada and it didn't work particularly well - I could cadence brake almost as fast. Looked good in the brochure though.
Also once drove a Mk3 Fiesta around 1990 in Germany as a rental car which was fitted with air conditioning - one of the first cars I saw with it fitted.
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the only abs equiped mk3 fiesta ive ever ever seen was on a jersey import on a j plate ie 1991 and the thing had to be taken off because fords couldnt supply the bands for the front driveshafts
trust me ive had one or 2 fiesta mk3 's and it was NOT an option anyone took up if indeed if it was an option in this country, your car was probably a jersey market ex spanish model just like mine was
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>> trust me ive had one or 2 fiesta mk3 's and it was NOT an
>> option anyone took up if indeed if it was an option in this country, your
>> car was probably a jersey market ex spanish model just like mine was
Funny you should mention that. My 1.1L came from Northern Ireland. But the XR2is were both ordered by me new from a Ford dealer in Manchester who specified the ABS free of charge.
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...ABS...
My 2002 Focus didn't have ABS.
I think it was made standard the following year.
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>> The original 1976 Fiesta Populars didn't even have brake servos either, not sure if all
>> the UK ones did.
950 Fiestas didn't always have a servo, IIRC it was an option on pop's and pop +'s, L and upwards all had servos (i think)
Seems to me people forget, or don't realise that time moves on, and things 'improve'.
up to the mid 60's many cars didn't have heaters or carpets!
in the early days, cars only had brakes on one or 2 wheels - rod or cable operated at that.
This vehicles were perfectly suitable for the use they got at the time.
Think about it, many houses had outside loo's no baths, heating in one room only...
people survived!
they must have done, we are here today, moaning about the fact our budget cars don't have sat-nav fitted.... that our internet went down for 10 minutes last night...
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>> Remember back in the 1970's, when Ford and Vauxhall competed with each other to produce
>> the "least-frills" car? We ended up with horrors like the Escort Popular, and a Viva
>> (forget the tag) which only had a driver's side sun visor.
>>
>
BMC/Austin or whatever they were called at the time also had them - the "City" versions of the Mini and Metro and "Clubman" version of the Maestro - no rear wash/wipe on hatchbacks seem to be the standard for them and just the speedo on the Mini!
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I think that the stripped down Vivas were designated "E" or somesuch. There was even a classy looking 2 door coupe Viva from a Firenza bodyshell - as stated no heater, one visor, rubber carpets, basic drum brakes and cros-ply tyres.....
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>>>classy looking 2 door coupe Viva from a Firenza bodyshell.
Classy... hmm. I shudder to think in the late 70s I thought the Firenza was so cool when I had one in met blue with a white vinyl roof and Wolfrace alloys.... and a bog standard 1156cc engine. Traded a P6 V8 Rover for it. Soon traded back for another V8 Rover.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Sat 8 Jan 11 at 10:06
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The Firenza was a sharp looking car in more ways than one.
www.firenza.net/
I would find room for one of those on my motoring catwalk driveway.
Along with
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Manta
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_15/17
The 70s was a dream for good looking affordable crumpet pullers.
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I think there would be a market for a budget label car IF it had a badge on it everyone recognised like VW or Ford etc. If it had a Tata badge for instance, few would make the leap of faith.
I think the key to a profitable budget car is at the design stage where you can make it as cheap to produce as possible - deleting bits of equipment makes little difference.
So yes theres a market, cheap cars always have a market, but whether you could make a profitable business from such a car is another matter.
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With the Panda they used all the standard Punto bits but also making sure the body was cheap to produce. The result is a very reliable car as most the bits are designed for heavier more power vehicles.
It is what FIAT is an expert at these days, designed in low production costs.
This was the big mistake BL made, they never spent enough on R&D so they ended up with crap cars which cost more than they should have done to produce.
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>> With the Panda they used all the standard Punto bits but also making sure the
>> body was cheap to produce.
>>
IIRC The much earlier FIAT Panda was an attempt at a cheap car that could be produced in less developed countries and to KISS it had all flat glass and the doors were similarly less shapely.
www.autogaleria.pl/fotografie/fiat/fiat_panda_1980_01.jpg
A Panda Jolly looks cheap to make ? A lot less parts !
www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/panda/prototypes.html
Rattle - you could have a jet powered version for use in Manchester :-)
tinyurl.com/3358x84
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I think the great thing about the current Panda is FIAT have made so many different versions. It is a cheap car which has a high cool factor like the original Mini. It has been on sale since 2003 and now and not due to be replaced until 2012 at the earliest.
I know most times I drive it just keeps surprising me. It is one of the few cars which all the Top Gear pressenters like too, Hammand even said in his book not to buy a Fiesta but buy a Panda instead.
The Picanto and i10 can't manage that.
When I bought it I had planned to keep it for the four years (finance) but now I plan to keep it until I am 40 if I am still living by then and I don't crash it.
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>>It is a cheap car which has a high cool factor like the original Mini<<
Er no. Theres nothing cool about buying a cheapskate car. It is white goods. Very good white goods, but thats all. Dont kid yourself.
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...The Firenza was a sharp looking car in more ways than one...
A pal of mine had a 'droop snoot' 1.8 Firenza which I believe was called a Magnum.
It was a bright, reddish orange and went very well.
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Getting back to the original question, the answer (for reasons given above) is clearly "no."
If there was a market, someone would have exploited it. And of course there have been "value" cars over the past 10 years. Peroduas and the Panda has been mentioned, and there are others. But they have only sold in small numbers.
So what sold in big numbers? The interesting success stories, in terms of market share, over the past 10 years have been Audi (up from 1.94% of the market in 2000 to 4.92% in 2010), BMW (from 3.05% to 5.39%), and to a lesser extent, Mercedes (up from 2.87% to 3.69%). (Yes, Kia and Hyundai have done well, too - but in a way, that is less surprising.)
I think the rise in Audi and BMW sales points to the reasons why there is no market for a value label car.
1) There is, contrary to what many people say, a lot of money around today. Audi and BMW had their biggest share of the market ever in 2010 - even bigger than in 2006 and 2007 when, in theory, there was a lot more money about. Yes, they didn't sell as many cars in 2010 as they were selling in 2007, but the numbers weren't far off.
2) We are a very image conscious society, especially when it comes to cars. A huge number of people wouldn't want to be seen dead in a "value label" car.
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Merc, Audi and BMW have all widened their ranges considerably in the last 10 years, which might explain some of the increased market share.
The same could be said of Kia and Hyundai.
The likes of VW, Vauxhall and Ford didn't have so many places to go in terms of widening their ranges, although they have tried.
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"Merc, Audi and BMW have all widened their ranges considerably in the last 10 years, which might explain some of the increased market share.
The same could be said of Kia and Hyundai."
Thanks, Iffy. That's a good point.
It would also explain things like Honda's falling market share (2010 was their lowest year for market share since 2004) (small range of cars, none particularly interesting as far as many people were concerned) - and Nissan's rising market share (2010 their best year - at least of this century) (the Qashqai.)
But I am going off topic.
But, back on topic - it seems to me that even the number of people driving the old Audi bread and butter models - the A4 & A6 - seems to have mushroomed over the last few years.
It's also worth pointing out that while Vauxhall and (esp) Ford have seen their market share declining, Volkswagen's has been rising. Of course, VW has expanded its range, too.
Last edited by: tyro on Sat 8 Jan 11 at 19:06
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>> good looking affordable crumpet
Sounds like what I need...
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im pretty sure they had a heater and radial tyres but happy to be put right
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I don't think a value car would sell well enough to be viable. People would buy better equipped second hand cars, and in the UK many will pay more for a nothing more, (and often less), than a badge.
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I think the argument against them would be the comparable used car you could get for the same money.
I think for this idea to succeed, it would need to be a complete package as opposed to just the car itself ie basic car, 3 year fully inclusive servicing, warranty, breakdown and maybe even a guaranteed future value?
So that a buyer could make the choice that by buying that, they knew to the penny what their costs would be over the 3 years of ownership.
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Don't get me wrong, I do know life has moved on and some brands which were once regarded as pretty rubbish are now very much better.
But...the only personal experience I can relate to this thread is the tale of my father-in-law who retired 12 years ago. He'd never had a new car in his life but some insurance policy kicked in and he decided to treat himself to a car as a retirement present to himself. He could afford +/- £7.5k.
At that time, it would have bought him a very nice not very second hand Golf or something. Despite strong advice against the notion from me and my b.i.l. he went and bought a brand new Proton Compact. A horrible little car in which he was utterly disappointed. I drove it on a few occasions and it was quite simply the most repugnant thing in every way.
He attempted to sell it once or twice but more or less couldn't give it away. In the end, it was written off in an accident some three years ago or so now.
He replaced it with a then mildly second hand Fiesta. He loves it. Different class of car despite its humble badge.
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Well he didnt have to buy a Proton did he? Could have bought something mainstream for that money. Just made a poor choice. Its no argument against new budget cars.
12 years ago I bought a brand new Matiz for £8k. I did 55,000 happy miles in that car and with the servicing deal, it never cost me a penny in unforseen expenses. I never even looked at a Compact. No good reason to.
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As I say you only need to see the reviews of the Panda or the Hyunfdai I10. The c1/107/Argo would also count. They are all well build proper cars with decent warranties. A golf at the same price would not have much warranty and could be a lot of trouble.
I could have bought a much bigger and a much better equiped Proton for the same money as I paid for my Panda, in fact I could have bought a brand new Corsa for just a few hundered more but reliability charts was enough for me think thrice.
I could have bought a 40k Fiesta for the money I paid for my Panda even if it had a warranty it would have needed a lot of wear and tear items. The way I see it if you take out a decent loan for a car everything needs to be covered. I could not imagine paying £120 a month for a car and then having to pay for new breaks etc.
So far the brand new Panda has cost me less than the Corsa did and considering the Panda is brand new and the Corsa was ten years old it is quite amazing. That said the £850 Fiesta my dad has had for nearly three and half years is really good value. On 91k now and still runs brillaintly, I now think only rust could stop him owning for five years. Of course the great think about the Fiesta is the silly gadgets, heated windscreen and electric seats.
The Panda is far nicer to drive though in terms of driving position and comfort.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 9 Jan 11 at 03:31
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Is there a market for a 'value label' car? - FotheringtonTomas
