So it looks like I'm going to be getting a second hand common rail diesel - to be precise the Ford / PSA 1.6 90 bhp engine fitted to a score of different cars.
What do I need to know about showing mechanical sympathy for the engine, bearing in mind that modern diesels are subject to DMF failures, turbo and intercooler failures, injection pump failures, injector failures, EGR failures, manifold swirl chamber failures, glowplug failures, etc?
(I omitted DPF failures, because I believe that my vehicle will not have one.)
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Speaking from no experience of diesels whatsoever (!), I'd say stick to the low-medium rev range, change the engine oil frequently, and don't put petrol in it :-)
In 30 years of car ownership I've never had a diesel-engined car (or an Asian one either, come to that). I appreciate the virtues of modern units, but when things go wrong they seem to cost many £££ to put right. In an effort to wring higher power outputs, diesels now seem somewhat 'highly strung'. I can only afford to buy out-of-warranty aged vehicles using my own folding stuff, so this has put me off 'taking the plunge' so far.
Last edited by: Old Sock on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 09:49
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Don't ride / slip the clutch.
Give it some beans every so often to blast out the soot and stop the EGR valve gunking up.
As with all turbo cars, don't welly it from cold, and let the engine idle for a few seconds before switching off after a long run.
That's all I've done and had lots of troublefree miles from diesels (common rail and PD)
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Well, I think I know what riding/slipping the clutch is.
How many revs is "some beans"?
And how many revs constitutes "wellying a car from cold"? That may be an important one for me, because the vast majority of my journeys from home involve me driving a few hundred hards, and then arriving at a junction, at which I turn and have to drive up a 15% hill.
I guess I would need to know at what point the turbo kicks in.
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>> Well, I think I know what riding/slipping the clutch is.
>>
>> How many revs is "some beans"?
to within 500 of the the red line. Your journey will be ok, nice oil will be circulating by the time you hit the hill.
The turbo cuts in around 1.5k revs.
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>> Give it some beans every so often to blast out the soot ...........
But don't do it if another vehicle is closer than a half a mile behind you!
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There is no reason why you should expect any of those failures if
1/ Dont run it at low "chuggy" revs or dump the clutch, and nice smooth gear changes. That will save the DMF
2/ Use the full rev range, changing gear high in the rev range - that will save the EGR.
3/ Change the oil every 6-9k miles, for a good fully synth, let it idle for a minute after a hard run, that will save the Turbo.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 10:02
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Use a good quality fuel - avoid supermarket fuels as common rail diesels seems to be quite fuel sensitive. Although you won't know what the engine has been run on previously you can limit any damage.
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>> Use a good quality fuel - avoid supermarket fuels as common rail diesels seems to
>> be quite fuel sensitive.
Complete tripe. Millions of supermarket fed diesels cant be wrong.
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>> Complete tripe. Millions of supermarket fed diesels cant be wrong.
Tell you what tyro. Buy a 1.6 petrol and save yourself the worry.
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Tell you what tyro. Buy a 1.6 petrol and save yourself the worry.
Too late now!
But to be honest, there aren't a lot of 2nd hand 1.6 petrols around in Scotland.
Last edited by: tyro on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 10:30
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RF - that is very helpful.
If I can ask stupid questions (nothing new there)
1. "How many revs is low and 'chuggy'"? 1200? 1500? 1800? (In my old petrol Berlingo, when I wasn't accelerating, I tended to do a lot of driving at between 1500 and 1800 revs.)
2. How high in the rev range should I change gear?
3. What does "dump the clutch" mean? (A quick google tells me that it is revving it hard with the clutch down then bringing it up quickly. Is that right?)
Corax - I don't have much choice of fuel where I am. "Scottish Fuels" is the only brand available for miles.
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>> 1. "How many revs is low and 'chuggy'"? 1200? 1500? 1800? (In my old petrol
>> Berlingo, when I wasn't accelerating, I tended to do a lot of driving at between
>> 1500 and 1800 revs.)
Chuggy is that low range where the engine feels lumpy. The chuggy range is lower than a petrol but feels more pronounced.
Your diesel will pull away on tickover. Easily. The torque (pulling power) is available at very low revs and its tempting to use it, so the chuggy range is by feel, say 0-1k revs.
>>
>> 2. How high in the rev range should I change gear?
You will feel the right moment in a diesel, but dont forget it has a very restricted rev range compared to a diesel. redline at 4.5k possibly. Generally to toddle about in the rane 1.2 to 2k revs, BUT its important to regularly run it up through the gears to within 500 revs of the red line or it will gum up.
>>
>> 3. What does "dump the clutch" mean? (A quick google tells me that it is
>> revving it hard with the clutch down then bringing it up quickly. Is that right?)
Traffic light grand prix is what i meant.
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Diesel maladies are infrequent.
I just drive quietly from cold.
If, however, I turn left out of our drive, I drive 1 mile up a very twisty road and climb about 500 feet... So all second and third gear 2-3 k revs. From cold.
Once a week I try to drive hard up to 4 k revs when warmed for 2-3 miles.
Injector cleaner once a year.
Oil and filter change 6 k miles.
Some mechanical sympathy.
So far no issues in 18 years of diesels..
As long as you avoid Renaults,Mazdas and GM diesels - which with a Ford you have - you should have no problems...
And misfueling..
|Most of the issues are due to bad design. And the makers above have form)
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Can't disagree with what anyone says on here and it's how I take care of my own car. Interesting to note though that all the cars at work (almost all Diesels) are thrashed from cold, redlined and generally abused on a daily basis, and they're still fine at high miles. I wonder if we can care a little too much with a modern car.
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Modern diesels are quite 'petrol like' in the way they drive, so the difference is not as pronounced as it once was.
The 2.0TDCi in the CC3 revs very cleanly and it's easy to come up against the limiter.
A little red upward arrow light appears on the dash - 'change up, you hooligan'.
It's no multi-valve, multi-cam Italian firecracker, but the red line, and the way it gets there, is not so different from my old Cortina.
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SWMBO has the 1.6 PSA Engine in the C4
She has Zero Mechanical Sympathy, its done 40 K trouble free miles
Loads of tourque, very smooth power deleivery.
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Nothing like this type of thread to bring the common rail diesel doom merchants out of the woodwork. The vast majority of them have never owned one and are talking absolute rubbish.
1. Don't thrash it from cold.
2. When warm use the full rev range once a week.
3. If you have thrashed it to within an inch of destruction, let it idle for a minute before switching off. (Climbed a real alpine mountain towing a big caravan). Motorway use is light load use.
4. As it is your first diesel drive between 2 and 3 thousand revs until you get used to the different engine characteristics.
5. Its a car, it is designed to work in all conditions of heat, cold, and abuse throughout the world. Just drive and enjoy it.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 12:05
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...Its a car, it is designed to work in all conditions of heat, cold, and abuse throughout the world. Just drive and enjoy it...
Spot on.
I've done 100,000 trouble-free miles in two Ford common rail diesels, both with DMF and DPF.
Last edited by: Iffy on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 12:10
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The only real killer is putting petrol in it - avoid that at all costs!
They can be a bit marginal on the turbo lubrication front, so make sure the oil is changed on time, and is drained out the bottom when hot, not sucked out from the top.
Other than that, it's French designed, so drive it like you stole it most of the time and it will thrive!
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I must admit that although I have owned only diesels for the last 20 years I have a "Fuel Angel" anti misfuel device fitted. Petrol will kill a common rail diesel. And as we have had three missfuels in the family, (not me) I am not taking that risk.
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>>>The only real killer is putting petrol in it - avoid that at all costs!
If it is a quite recent model it may have the fuel filler device that prevents this happening - a good enough reason to consider and maybe favour second hand Ford diesels IMO.
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It might be in need of a good thrashing when you get it - I hired a useless Citroen Relay van a few years ago and after beating it to within an inch of its life on a trip to Scotland and back it was much more refined to drive.
Tough clutches, too - took me until Carlisle to realise I'd been pulling away in 3rd gear since leaving Leeds.
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Remember WorkshopTech used to mention the variable vanes on the Ford 1.6 diesels, he was saying that mechanism could choke up sometimes, and i think he thought these diesels were pretty dirty and benefited from more frequent oil / filter changes. I can't remember exactly what wisdom he shared but google will :-)
Bring back WT! I think i've maybe spotted him on Briskoda, but very infrequent posts under another name and possibly on PistonHeads under a similar name to HJ. Might be completely different guy in both cases though. Half tempted to send a private message to both...
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...Half tempted to send a private message to both...
No reason not to, he might not know we're here, and if he's knowledgeable mechanically, he'd be welcome anyway.
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>> Remember WorkshopTech used to mention the variable vanes on the Ford 1.6 diesels, he was
>> saying that mechanism could choke up sometimes, and i think he thought these diesels were
>> pretty dirty and benefited from more frequent oil / filter changes. I can't remember exactly
>> what wisdom he shared but google will :-)
For what it's worth
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=82125
post location - wednesday 20th Jan 00:30
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>> As long as you avoid Renaults
Shame as the engines are brilliant. The 1.9dCi in our old Scenic racked up 63,000 miles without so much as a misfire. Frugal, smooth, sweet and gutsy.
Unfortunately, what it was bolted into was falling to bits, and wired up by monkeys. Great engine though.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 16:07
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1.6 psa engine in the focus needs double the oil changes to reduce the turbo gumming up & its pipe work but the 1.6 PSA in the Fiesta doesn't suffer the same!
Even the Turbo rebuilders can't explain why other than asume the Focus runs hotter under the bonnet.
Cracking little engine , very responsive, drive with care cold & allow a min to spool down when you stop & use decent fuel
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Never, ever, rev it when it's cold, which means for about half an hour from stone cold. Wait until it has stopped clattering and the temperature has been stable for ten minutes.
Change the oil and filter religiously. Diesels are hard on oil.
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>> Never, ever, rev it when it's cold, which means for about half an hour from
>> stone cold.
How many diesels do you know of that have been damaged by this treatment and what was the damage?
I agree it is not a good idea to treat a diesel such, but mine warms up in a lot less than 30 minutes, (miles).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 18:47
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>> How many diesels do you know of that have been damaged by this treatment and what was the damage?
Never owned one for long enough to have objective proof ON. It's just mechanical sympathy. To me, if it's clattering, it's more likely to have metal to metal contact and suffer wear. Purely intuitive, perhaps wrong even, but I don't care. I'm happy with it as an attitude.
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I can't understand this paranoia about letting the turbo "spool down" If you come off a motorway, 80mph cruise is 2000ish revs at low power. By the time you have slowed to negotiate the roundabout or service area car park, the turbo will have slowed down, and as most diesels have oil coolers (it is often integral with the oil filter), it will have cooled down too. Diesel engines only work hard when accelerating, (a small proportion of use), or hill climbing with a full load.
I believe this turbo cool down myth comes from the early days of petrol turbo's which run hotter than diesels and had poorer quality oils. Use the correct oil and drive sensibly and you will not have a problem.
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I have a friend who agreed with you ON. He carried it further though, pulling his V6 diesel Discovery off the motorway after an hour at 100mph and turning the engine off immediately. I warned him but he didn't listen. The turbo lunched itself at 8,000 miles from new.
It's true that he had lent it to a slightly dodgy henchman of his in Caledonian Road, and it had come back with some dirty tow ropes stuffed in the boot space. But I think he did the damage himself. He's not an idiot but he's a bit arrogant about some things. He's an enthusiast up to a point, used to drive air-cooled Porsche 911s.
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Just get in it and drive the thing it's not rocket science let it warm up before you thrash it and get it serviced on time.
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>> I have a friend who agreed with you ON. He carried it further though, pulling
>> his V6 diesel Discovery off the motorway after an hour at 100mph and turning the
>> engine off immediately. I warned him but he didn't listen. The turbo lunched itself at
>> 8,000 miles from new.
>>
>> It's true that he had lent it to a slightly dodgy henchman of his in
>> Caledonian Road, and it had come back with some dirty tow ropes stuffed in the
>> boot space. But I think he did the damage himself. He's not an idiot but
>> he's a bit arrogant about some things. He's an enthusiast up to a point, used
>> to drive air-cooled Porsche 911s.
>>
The key words were "drive sensibly". :-)
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Quote from my C5 handbook
Never stop the engine without having
first allowed it to run at idle for
a few seconds, thus allowing the
turbo to return to normal speed.
Do not press the accelerator pedal
as the ignition is being switched
off. This could severely damage
the turbo unit.
Mine is the 1.6 HDi
Last edited by: mikeyb on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 19:32
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>> Do not press the accelerator pedal
as the ignition is being switched
off.
They needed to put that in the handbook?! I don't doubt it's there for a reason though :-(
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Note, a few seconds. By the time you have parked in a motorway service area I think your time is up!
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Tyro you might remember I said in another of your threads, like mikeyb, my Citroen has the 1.6HDi. I think you will find they have a 12.5k service interval rather than the (daft) 20k interval of many other Citroen diesel models.
As long as you don't exceed 12.5k/yr then a service a year will be fine with quality oil unless you're obsessive and do it yourself at the 6k midpoint (I'm asssumimg you won't want to travel a 300ml round trip to the dealer for an interim oil change!).
As said above there is a directive from Citroen about the way to change the oil on these, if you DIY or use an indy make sure the correct procedure is used.
Other wise I'd just enjoy driving it and don't worry.
Mine always runs for 2/3 mins on the drive before I set off and I never exceed 2500rpm until the temp gauge has come up. Once warm I drive it like a petrol hitting the red line several times a day in 2nd/3rd. I've found it doesn't save any fuel really to obsessively keep the revs down and change up early. Also it always idles (or is being driven slowly) for a minute or two before switching off.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 20:07
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Ere we go.
Regular oil changes with good quality stuff, and a new filter.
Let the oil get round before you drive it, and then take it gently till it's warm.
Let it tick over for up to 2 or 3 minutes after working it hard, progressively lower tickover times needed if less hard worked or been ticking over in traffic/parking.
Most importantly get yourself some Millers Diesel Power Ecomax (formerly DPS4) and use in every tankful.www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_AUTO_RETAIL.htm
The last is my opinion only, others will disagree even though they are wrong.:-)
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Lets be honest who's going to sit there really for 2-3 mins to let the turbo spool down after a thrash?
No need because you don't do 100mph then come to a complete stop do you?
After the speed is wound down and your back to the slower speeds or coming off the motorway to a slip rd the blower is back to normal.
And when you come to a stop a 10-20 seconds is all you really need.
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>> Lets be honest who's going to sit there really for 2-3 mins to let the
>> turbo spool down after a thrash?
The person who's isn't going to replacing their turbo.
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>> >> Lets be honest who's going to sit there really for 2-3 mins to let
>> the
>> >> turbo spool down after a thrash?
>>
>> The person who's isn't going to replacing their turbo.
>>
Come off it GB, I have driven over 500,000 miles in turbo diesel cars and have never let them idle for more than 30 seconds before stopping the engine regardless of use. I have never had an engine, turbo, or any other mechanical fault.
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30 seconds in most cases will be enough to let the turbo spool down.
But another 30 seconds wouldn't do any harm either.
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The turbo spools down as you slow on the slip road, as soon as you ease off the accelerator it slows down. The idle period is to allow cool (er) oil to circulate through the turbo.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 22:30
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The turbo spools down as you slow on the slip road, as soon as you ease off the accelerator it slows down. The idle period is to allow cool (er) oil to circulate through the turbo.
Spot on.!!
So long as the oil is all good in the engine the turbo will live on for monster mileage if the oil feed pipe becomes blocked with sludge no matter how much time you allow for spool down those bearings will die.
The important factor with turbo's is v good oil supply and they work.
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Synthetic oils have made a huge difference to turbo life. The problem used to be that switching off a turbo at its normal operating temperature would fry the oil that happened to stop inside the bearing housing. This would leave behind a residue which over time would block the turbo's oil supply and cause failure. Synthetic oils are much more resistant to this, and combined with a diesel engine's lower exhaust gas temperatures give the turbo a much easier time.
It doesn't matter how well designed your turbo installation is though, if the turbo isn't given time to spool down before the engine is turned off, it will be running at something like 80,000 RPM with no fresh oil supply and that won't do it any good.
In most cases with my VW PD (and the Renault dCi before it), I let it idle for about 10 seconds, usually the time it takes to take off my seatbelt and gather my bits and pieces from door bins etc, before switching off. This gives the turbo time to spool down to its normal idle speed. If I'm coming off a motorway or have consciously been giving the car stick, I allow about 30 seconds.
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>> It doesn't matter how well designed your turbo installation is though, if the turbo isn't
>> given time to spool down before the engine is turned off, it will be running
>> at something like 80,000 RPM with no fresh oil supply and that won't do it
>> any good.
If you think your turbo is doing 80,000 revs when you arrive at a MSA car park, try accelerating on the slip road from 1,000 revs. You will soon find that your turbo slowed down a soon as you took your foot off the accelerator.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 7 Jan 11 at 10:17
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Apart from a service station, most of us live some distance from the motorway junction, so by the time you have got home after a long journey, the turbo is barely spinning and the oil is much cooler.
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>> If you think your turbo is doing 80,000 revs when you arrive at a MSA
>> car park, try accelerating on the slip road from 1,000 revs. You will soon find
>> that your turbo slowed down a soon as you took your foot off the accelerator.
I meant that in the context of ensuring the engine is at idle for a few seconds before switching off. I still know people who swing into a space and cut the engine almost before the car has stopped. Either that or blip the throttle before shutting down.
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>> 80mph cruise is 2000ish revs at low power
How much power does an average car actually use at 80 MPH, and at different speeds?
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Years ago we all let the engine idle in a lorry to cool the turbo down after we stopped for a few minutes.
More recently we are insrtucted that it isn't necessary and consumes too much deisel across a whole fleet.
Make your own conclusion from this and don't shoot the messenger, shoot SAFED!
Pat
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All down to better oil, Pat.
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>> More recently we are insrtucted that it isn't necessary and consumes too much deisel
In recent years truck turbo's blowing have become a regular thing, unheard of in proper trucks in them dark old days.
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Many thanks, everybody.
54 posts of good advice and interesting discussion was as much as anyone could hope for.
I like to hope that I'm now somewhat the wiser.
And even if not, I'm definitely better informed.
:-)
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Mechanical sympathy and care for a diesel - Old Sock
