Dear All,
There has been a lot of debate surrounding winter tyres and I too have joined in in some discussions regarding the excellent Autosocks that have saved me twice this winter, once getting me 25 miles from work in the most appaling conditions I have ever experienced.
However, my general feeling that it would be better and safer to have winter tyres for the months when they are nessasary for both my company car and my wifes car.
Thats the simple bit.
I remember reading some good arguments from some contributors here and on 'the other site' that have explained more detailed things like wear rates between summer and winter tyres and giving further strong arguments to justify winter tyres (in addition to the extra grip and shorter braking diustances that I am already sold on completely and don't need convincing on further).
I have spnt the last 40 minutes trying to find the most detailed conversation on the technical benefits and can't find them for the life of me now when I want to refer to them. Can someone remenmber under what subject it was listed, or provide me with a link, or even give me the extra info I need?
This is to persuade my employer that this is money well spent (I am sure I read that winter tyres cost less and so save on expensive 'summer' tyres) on the company BMW 5 series touring, and to help justify the expense on my wifes car which will be coming out of my own pocket.
Many people also recommend getting a set of steel wheels with a bigger profile tyre to go with the tyres. Good idea, but where would I source such a thing and ensure compatability with my particular car (to ensure brakes dont foul rims, etc)? Or do I just budget £40 twice a year to change them over on my existing wheels?
BMW are offering these as sets and on the 3 series they are very affordable with wheel and tyre complete sets from about £600. For my 5 series though the sets start at £1,500 which is just too steep.
Many thanks in advance!
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I posted this test a while ago...
www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259582/tyre_test_2010.html
My tyres have steel wheel / winter tyre combinations, though their prices have shot up recently
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>> This is to persuade my employer that this is money well spent (I am sure
>> I read that winter tyres cost less and so save on expensive 'summer' tyres) on
>> the company BMW 5 series touring,
That will be an interesting conversation. Probably along the lines of "they are not fitted as standard so its not a safety reason, now convince us about the financial benefits of doing so"
There are none, at all, of any kind.
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>>There are none, at all, of any kind.
Not so if OP uses the car to visit clients, and (its being a 5 series and so useless RWD) he cannot visit them in the snow.
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>> >>There are none, at all, of any kind.
>>
>> Not so if OP uses the car to visit clients, and (its being a 5
>> series and so useless RWD) he cannot visit them in the snow.
For 5 days a year? max? if that? maybe no snow at all next year?
Request rejected.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 4 Jan 11 at 15:34
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Not to mention getting stuck behind everyone else. "All weather" tyres all year might (just) be worthwhile. Learning how to actually drive in snow would seem to be the priority for most drivers.
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>> Learning how to actually drive in snow would seem to be the priority for most drivers.
Or fit some winters and just drive :-)
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>> >> Learning how to actually drive in snow would seem to be the priority for
>> most drivers.
>>
>> Or fit some winters and just drive :-)
Bzzt. That does not follow. I have summer tyres on the van, and had no problem whatsoever - even when the snow was fresh and people were failing to get up slight inclines, goiung sideways, falling off the camber, wheelspinning, etc. Driving ability is the major function of getting around in the snow. People still crash in huge numbers despite all sorts of issues - once they get going, there would be carnage.
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£1500 for 4 x OEM BMW alloys (£275+ / each) + 4 x brand name, (relatively) low profile, runflat winter tyres (£260+ / each) is alright. Probably hold reasonable resale value too.
I know what you're saying though. On some models BMW will offer to supply steelies instead. I'm not sure if this applies to the 5 though, maybe only the 1 and the 3 :-(
If you're buying from anywhere other than the dealer, call the local parts desk and ask for -
- Minimum rim size to clear the calipers (16" ?)
- Number of bolt holes (5)
- Pitch Circle Diameter, or PCD - that's the diameter of the circle the bolt holes are on
- Centre hole diameter - the hole the neck on the hub fits through, you can go for bigger than your cars hub size with spigot rings but who wants to do that. Obviously you can't go for smaller.
- Offset, the distance between the rim face and the edge of the wheel - affects clearance between wheel and suspension / inside the wheel arch when turning the wheels. Expressed as an ET number, e.g. ET52
- Width of the rim, e.g. 5.5 inches on a 16" diameter wheel
- Rim type (often "J") but on runflats it's different i think
Width of the rim dictates what tyres you'll need, you'll have 2 or 3 tyre widths you can choose for a given rim width.
- Tyre profile, dictates the rolling radius of the wheel / tyre, needs to be within 4% of the original fit for BMW
Can't think of anything else that might trip you up doing a DIY package :-)
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I very nearly ticked the Winter Tyre option on the X1 - seen them on the net with steel wheels. I'd be interested in those..
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Kwik-fit were offering sets and summer storage.
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Might have a look at that JC - occurred to me after posting that run-flats might have to be considered as there is no spare..
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>> Learning how to actually drive in snow would seem to be the priority for most drivers.
Unfortunately if someone is daft enough to be trying to run their BMW on 255/35x18 or some other nonsesical summer tyre, I'd defy a Finnish rally king to drive in fresh or compacted snow.
The problem is moving from standstill - once moving most cars are ok but some of these lumps will happily follow the camber rather than go in a semi-straight line.
I've never had any problem in FWD or RWD cars as long as the tyres were 205/55 or taller, but I found it impossible to move one of my friend's Mercs after it was 'stuck' on virtually level ground - some human-power was required to get the car moving initially.
Obviously some summer tyres seem more effective in snow than others, and winter tyres really are impressive, but as Zero says - for 5 days a year is it worth it ?
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The problem is that with 'climate change' our winters could actually end up being colder and more snowy than the last 30 winters. If we knew they would be, we would all buy winter tyres.
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As Zero says above, they're not justifiable on a cost basis. You'll never make that leap unless you've wasted money on the wrong car for the job initially.
Snow's only one part of their talent. The wet weather performance, the refusal to aquaplane when provoked with wholly inappropriate speed is amazing. The slush performance is reassuring.
The simple fact that i might do something wrong one time, or M might not have grasped all the snow driving techniques yet means that they're a no brainer fit. I know she's a better chance of coming home in one piece choosing the tyres that are a best fit for the conditions at the time.
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>> Snow's only one part of their talent. The wet weather performance
The M&S tyres I had on my van did performed rather poorly on dry roads. Rather worryingly so.
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>> The M&S tyres I had on my van did performed rather poorly on dry roads. Rather worryingly so.
Seems to go against the grain those findings. Most of the testing shows less than half a car length at reasonable speeds in dry weather above 7 degrees C.
Were they studded ice tyres or something? If it was ice tyres, you're not supposed to go above 35mph or whatever on dry tarmac. Not sure we need studded tyres in the UK. Modern winter rubber compounds are often more effective than old school studs on a variety of ice conditions too.
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Michelin M&S 330.
If these things are so good all year 'round, why is anything else still used?
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If it were for 5 days only, the case would be hard to make. The snow and ice lay around here (NW) for over two weeks so far. More snow today. But there are also very real braking and grip advantages in the colder months. The snag is that you never know when snow is about to arrive: if you did you could rearrange your schedule.
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M&S has no real meaning in the context of road tyres, SFAIUK. No testing required, just artistic arrangement of the tread blocks in an appealing (?) macho fashion. For grip on roads, the mountain/snowflake is your only man.
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M+S tyres are not winter tyres. They are Mud and Snow and have a tread pattern said to be more appropriate. The main reason why winter tyres are better is they are made of rubber that does not harden in the cold and therefore continues to grip.
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SFD, unless your company will agree to a BMW dealer deal, then i think for this winter you are probably going to be out of luck.
Winter, even all season tyres are extremely hard to find now in most sizes, and those that are available are either of dubious make or have gone up to extrortionate prices or indeed both.
Even for your wife's car the story will be much the same, the usual 3 or 4 internet sources i and my family use are out of stock on almost everything with no dates given for restocking.
Might be worth checking Rochford Tyres, as their alloy wheel and tyre packages are as cheap in most cases as steel wheel and tyre sets, though when i tried to get a set for the C2 they told me by email that they are struggling to find any winter tyres to sell at all such has been the unprecedented demand.
I have winter/summer sets on alloy wheels (used alloys for the winter's off ebay) which i bought several years ago before good all season's became available in better speed ratings, having a complete second set can be cost effective 'if' the car is being kept long term...several years...my pick up's winter set are on their 4th season and still have 7mm tread left.
Price wise i've found good winter's to be more expensive than the equivalent summer's before the rises we are now seeing...i kept an eye open on several sites for my size and when quality bargains appeared snapped them up, otherwise expect winter's to be 20 to 40% (more like 60 to 80% at the mo) more than summer's of a similar quality.
By the way i disagree that low profile tyres are NBG in winter spec, the 225/45x17 Nokian NRG2's fitted previously to my aged MB were superb, maybe not as nimble as a high profile, but i could without a problem go anywhere other car went regardles of it's drive configuration, the pick up's are 265 section and that doesn't struggle either.
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>> M&S has no real meaning in the context of road tyres, SFAIUK. No testing required,
>> just artistic arrangement of the tread blocks in an appealing (?) macho fashion. For grip
>> on roads, the mountain/snowflake is your only man.
The Mitchelin things I had did have two (3?) "snowflake" symbols on the sidewall. I don't recall any mountain sign. I can't find a decent image of the things on the 'net, either.
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Thanks for the interesting and often helpful replies, particularly SKODA who has spent a lot of time on a detailsed and valuable response for us, thanks.
Well, one cost benefit is that whilst I am on the winter ones I am not wearing out the summer ones I suppose. Mind you, after 70,000 miles I am still on the original fronts and only replaced the rears at 60,000 so extending their wear will mean they will last the life of the car!
Actually my boss has come round to the idea and is even contemplating a 4x4 for his own use (believe me, this is a sea-change in attitude, but we have both had a number of travel days knarled up and frequent days when neither of us can get into work). If you cost our time in hourly pay is does not take too many weeks for a recouping of the outlay on the extra set of tyres.
We were both stranded in Calais for a night and had to book a hotel as the weather was so bad in the UK recently and it sure was a buttock clenching journey from Folkestone to my house in East Sussex - not exactly an epic distance.
Another journey just 25 miles home took 5 1/4 hours due to the most amazing sheet ice and -9 degrees. Used my snow socks the whole way which removed the fear element and gave me superb traction the whole way, but they are not a long term solution and fitting them is a pain with big wheels / small arches.
Winter tyres cover all +7 degrees to minus lots degrees and so cover much more than a few days a year don't they?
Oh, and I have done a skid pad course and do know how to drive reasonably well too (23 years and 30k+ miles a year). To all those that have never had a problem I applaud you and wish you continued good experience. I am just thinking of keeping myself safe and less likely to be involved in an accident.
I spent a while on the Rieder.com website and can't seem to get a complete set of steel wheels and tyres, but could get alloys in a more sensible 16" size with tyres for about £1,000 + transport from Germany that makes BMW's deal not so bad at £1,500.
I am sure I have read a certain Honest person saying a 2 wheel drive on winter tyres is safer than a 4x4 on summer ones, or did I imagine that?
Keep the comments coming! :)
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For FT: I think you can get, for mid-European conditions, snowflake only, or snowflake within a "mountain" symbol. I suspect the first is for all-weather tyres, whilst the combo is for more severe conditions. Then, for Scandinavian cold, there are stickier friction tyres, and the ultimate, the studded variety. I haven't seen a thorough analysis of the permutations. The Nokian site is not especially helpful...
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Tue 4 Jan 11 at 22:53
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Winter Tyres - I am sold, but need some detail - PR
