This is not the Berlingo replacement thread, but it could well make a useful contribution. I’m starting with a clean sheet, so am open to suggestions. I may well purchase something new, but due to financial constraints, I’m really looking at suggestions for used cars.
Must be:
Roomy. Good size boot essential - but also good leg and head room, especially in the front. (Good head room is important. I don’t like claustrophobic cars). Should also have good cubbies. Prefer an estate, mpv, crossover, 4x4, but would consider a hatch.
Refined: I’m getting to the stage in life where I just don’t like noise.
Rapid - or at least responsive: I don’t care if it won’t do 100 mph, but I would like something that would get up hills fairly effortlessly, and enable me to overtake quickly.
Reliable: The fewer repairs it needs and the longer it will last, the better.
Reasonably priced: Let’s say under £12,000
Desirable:
Good visibility and view: Quite nice to have a raised seating position. I’d like lots of glass. I quite like the idea of these up and over windscreens that you get on some French cars.
Sunroof: It doesn’t need to open, I just want to see the sky above me. I prefer “airy” to “claustrophobic”.
Deep profile tyres: Preferably having profile of at least 60: I would really like more. I don’t low profile tyres at all.
Front or four wheel drive: Don’t want rear wheel drive. (Snow, y'know.)
Cloth seats: Don’t really want leather, but could live with it.
Manual transmission: I could live with automatic transmission, but it wouldn’t be my preference.
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Another Berlingo?
Kia Carens/Sedona
VW Touran
Toyota Verso
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Some sort of Japanese or Korean smallish V6-engined barge. They are quite cheap, glamour-free and undoubtedly just the thing. Always quite fancied one myself.
Trouble is I can't remember any model names.
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Nissan Quashqai
Skoda Octavia Scout
BMW X5 with toys, tad outrageous but if it's good enough for the traffic police... :-)
Hyundai Santa Fe / Kia Sportage (older one is ugly though)
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Buy a nice window van like my Scudo. I've had it about 6 months, and still look forward to driving it, and get out smiling. It's a lovely van.
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Honda CRV with EX spec........
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2003 - 2008 Forester.
Airy - especially with very large glass sunroof.
Powerful - especially with Turbo
Torquey - with most engines offered including diesel
Lots of cubby holes - some very large and easily accessible
Slightly higher driving position - very comfortable and easily accessible
Very reliable
Non-turbo has balloon tyres
Downsides
Petrols not especially economical
Turbo not very quiet at 85mph
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You've made an excellent case, Espada. I would find a Forester very tempting.
The main problem is that there are not many of them, and they are not cheap - mostly within the dealer network. On Autotrader, I can only find 7 in the whole of Scotland. £8000 for a 2004 vehicle seems pretty expensive to me. (I might add that there are not that many used Outbacks or Legacies on the market either.) But yes, I could be seriously interested.
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The Nissan SquashCow ticks ~ all ~ the boxes. Humph likes them so much he has a his and hers.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 16:12
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Toyota Verso ticks all Tyro's boxes on paper. We've had ours nearly three years from new and it's very competent, with headroom to spare even for my long-torsoed 6'6". What it doesn't inspire is love. From the lid-on-dustbin clang of the doors, through the jiggly ride to the dashboard design by Messrs Higgle & Piggle, it involves mainly by mild irritation.
But it holds a lot and covers long distances well. The 2.2D 140 has enough oomph for a full load on a hill, and it's especially pleasant to be driven in. Despite the blunt shape it's noticeably quieter at speed than my Volvo. 430 miles between fills is disappointing, though - it could do with a bigger tank.
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Of the suggestions that I've received on this thread, there are some that I'm a bit doubtful about.
Kia Sedona - strikes me as being too big.
Fiat Scudo - likewise
VW Touran - RF's experience sort of put me off - and what I've read elsewhere suggests that there are rather a lot of disappointed customers out there.
BMW X5 - I'm reluctant to go down the big 4x4 route. Not to mention the drug dealer image.
In fact, my preference would really be for an MPV or estate. I'm prepared to consider the Forester because of the love that owners have for it, and because the old one was more estate than SUV - and, at a pinch, the CRV because it is a Honda - but I'm not drawn towards a Hyundai Santa Fe or a Kia Sportage, or a Ford Kuga.
So here are (some of) the contenders, ranked for luggage space in cubic litres (with seats up). I hope these figures are accurate, but am conscious that luggage space isn't always measured the same way, and hence raw numbers don't tell the whole story.
Berlingo New - 675
Berlingo Old - 628
Honda Accord est - 576
Skoda Octavia est - 560
Ford C Max - 550
Ford Mondeo est - 540
Honda CRV - 527
Avensis est - 520
Citroen C4 Picasso - 500
Volvo V70 - 485
Legacy - 459
Outback - 459
Skoda Roomster - 450
Kia Carens - 430
Corolla Verso - 417
Qashqai - 410
Forester - 387
This suggests that the boot of the 2003-08 Forester isn't really that big - which, if true, does sort of suggest it's not quite my ideal car.
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Forester has a full-sized wheel under the boot floor and a rear-diff beneath this.
It's really an Impreza on stilts and rear seat legroom is a bit limited if the front seats are right back.
The rear seats fold flat for a decent boot when required, however.
The CRV II is roomier and has a much bigger boot but is nowhere near as good to drive as the Foz.
I've been offered £12k as a very good trade-in price for my unmarked 18k mile 58-plate 2.5XT (with PPP upgrade - 260bhp, 300lbft).
Problems? Needed a heated seat element (warranty job). Otherwise flawless.
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Lygonos has it right. All the others in your list are either 2WD or much higher or longer 4WD cars. CRV is part time 4WD only.
Drive a Forester. When you sit in that seat it just feels perfect.
If winter tyres are as good as they say, then avoid the part time 4WD and go for a really good FWD - like a C-Max - also meant to be very comfortable.
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Octavia hatch has the same size boot as the estate, assuming you arn't filling it to the roof.
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I know Humph loves his Qashqai, but my father in law's experience has been less than perfect.
He bought a year old one (1.5 dCi) from a Nissan main dealer a year or so ago. It's been back four times, once for the clonking rear shock problem, once for an ineffective handbrake, and twice for the heater which refuses to warm up properly. The car is currently at the dealership where it has been for the past fortnight awaiting a new thermostat which is apparently on back order. He has a courtesy car, an identically engined Micra, but in the past couple of days that too has started playing up, intermittently losing all accelerator response, and blinking its MIL. This Micra is a 10 reg with 5000 miles on the clock.
It's a shame, as the "Squash" as we call it is a lovely car. But this was supposed to be their 'last' car to see them well into retirement, and he's getting nervous that it's needed so many dealer visits this early in its life, even if it's not been for anything earth shattering, and is understandably concerned what it's going to cost him when out of warranty. The fact that the courtesy car has also gone wrong has not exactly reassured him that a Nissan is what he wants to be in in the long term.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 22:08
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>> Honda CRV with EX spec........
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Too dear. But a CRV II diesel would hit just about every requirement. Just track down a lowish miles, well looked after one.
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Try a Forester, if you can afford the petrol, its all the car you will ever need.
The reason the boot capacity is smaller is because it is shallower than some BUT it still has a very decent load area as opposed to volume.
Last edited by: stunorthants29 on Wed 22 Dec 10 at 20:10
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Try a Forester, if you can afford the petrol, its all the car you will ever need.
Good idea.
There is a slight problem with trying them. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, but my location is a little bit of a problem. For example, I've been onto Autotrader, and looked at used Mondeo estates. The closest at under £10,000 is 180 miles away.
However, I do have a neighbour (well, 20 miles down the road) with a Forester, so I might call him and ask for a look at his!
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We had a 2.0 XT auto. If we could have afforded the fuel, I dont think you could top it as a car for every eventuality. Great in snow too.
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As a matter of fact the Octavia 1.8T, with that trick 4wd system, is a very nice car. But available examples may be a bit old by now. A really good one could be a bargain though. Quick motor, and safe.
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I agree about the Forester too. My BiL in New Zealand has one, 2.5 litre I think. Excellent to drive, and smooth enough to pass for a six.
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Thanks for all suggestions.
I suppose that Movilogo is pretty close to the mark with "Another Berlingo?"
And a Berlingo does, just about, hit the target. Pretty much 5/5 for "roomy" and "reasonably priced". 4/5 for "refined" and "rapid" - at least with the 1.6 petrol engine - though I reckon that an Hdi 90 (especially if remapped), could make 5/5 for "rapid". In my experience, "reliability" has been 4/5 - in other words it has never let me down, but build quality is mediocre.
In order to improve on it, I'd be looking for improvements in refinement, rapidity, and reliability. The latter suggests looking to the orient - especially Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and Lexus - none of whom have really been into the "van with windows" market - with the exception, perhaps, of the Yaris Verso.
With Honda, the obvious alternatives are the CR-V, as has been mentioned, and the Accord estate, though with the latter I'd miss out on the raised seating position - which I suspect I'd miss. Another option is the Honda Stream, a vehicle so rare that one suspects that only anoraks have heard of it. (Has anyone here any experience of this beast?)
With Toyota, the Turkish-built 7-seater Verso sounds like the best bet - or possibly its British-built 5-seater predecessor or an Avensis estate. (Previa too big, RAV 4 not roomy enough).
With Subaru, the Forester is worth looking at - failing which the Outback or Legacy.
And then there is the Lexus RX, a vehicle which seems to tick all the boxes (except for manual transmission and cloth seats), but which I can't actually see myself buying.
Other attractive alternatives are:
the Qashqai, at least with if I got one with its wonderful panoramic sunroof (though I'm not sure about reliability and load lugging capacity),
the Ford C-Max (questions about reliability)
the Skoda Roomster (ok in all areas, but not brilliant in any other than price)
the C4 Picasso (more questions about reliability)
the Octavia estate (not really that refined, no raised seating position, reliability fair, but not brilliant).
So, at this stage, there are a lot of cars which seem to come very close, but, as far as I can see, no clear winner.
Last edited by: tyro on Fri 24 Dec 10 at 07:08
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I would look at a C4 Picasso.
Same platform and engines as a new Berlingo, and so just as reliable. Nice airy cabin with that big screen, comfortable, good-sized boot, more refined than a Berlingo I suspect. They are much better built than the old Berlingo, and seeing as you want a manual you will be avoiding its worst feature - the EGS automated manual gearbox.
Father-in-law has a Forester (his fourth in a row I believe) and while he like many owners is happy with it, the boot is shallow due to the high floor, as others have pointed out.
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Thanks for those comments, Boxsterboy. I really like the Forester,but the size of the boot is a potentially a major obstacle. I'll certainly try to have a look at the C4 Picasso.
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Adding to your list:
Mazda5?
Mazda 6 Estate?
Mitsubishi Grandis?
Zafira?
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Yes, I should probably add Mazda6 estate - though I know that there have been problems with diesels.
Mazda5 seems to have not come up to the expected reliability of other Mazdas.
I've not thought about the Grandis, so will think about it.
Zafira doesn't appeal.
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>> Yes, I should probably add Mazda6 estate - though I know that there have been
>> problems with diesels.
Doesn't meet your "headroom" requirement,
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True, but if I'm considering a Honda Accord estate as an outside possibility, I might as well consider the Mazda as well.
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Still looking for an Estate type thing myself. Did have a drive of a Lancer Estate and whilst I liked the car, couldn't get comfy in the seat. Looking for perhaps a more upright position with lumbar support ideally.
Roomster is on my list, though I'm not convinced on the build quality. One I looked at had leaking rear doors and wet carpets, the other had door seals hanging off and worn plastic trim/dash buttons. Not as good as my 8 year old Octavia.
Zafira has wierd grotesque handbrake thing that doesn't appeal and Vauxhall isn't doing at all well in the reliability surveys.
Mazda5s seem good value, what's the catch with them then?
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Suggestions for tyro's ideal / fantasy car - nyx2k
