Motoring Discussion > idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: tyro	Replies: 93

New Mon 20 Dec 10 08:57   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

(And please don’t say “At least you're OK - that's the main thing.”) The idiot is the title is me. I managed to roll my Berlingo about noon yesterday. I was a couple of miles from home, the road had been well cleared, and while there was slush on both sides, the middle was completely black. Good driving conditions, very little on the roads. I was doing about 50, instead of my usual 40 these days. I approached a bend, and as I approached, I noticed a car approaching from the other direction. I was pretty annoyed, because that meant going on to the slush on the bend with my passenger side wheels, since there was not room on black part of the road for both of us. I should have braked hard, reduced to 20, and crawled through the bend. Instead I braked slightly, met him on the bend, probably around 40, hit the slush, and lost traction. The car went into a spin, and as I wondered whether it would come off the road, something unexpected happen. Wheels lifted off the ground, the car rolled, and came to rest on its side. My wife and I climbed out the front passenger door. I had a small cut on my knuckle, she was unhurt. (And 20 hours later, the expected stiffness and soreness don't seem to have materialised.) Other people were quickly on the scene. A friend with a 4 x 4 attached a rope and got the car upright. The engine wouldn’t start, so it was towed off the road to a convenient place, and the road cleared of debris. (The brakes weren’t working either). Pretty well every panel on the body is damaged, and there is a fair sized dent in the roof just above the windscreen on the driver side. Windscreen a mess, but didn’t actually fall in. The only window to be broken up was the drivers side window. The airbags did not deploy, rather surprisingly - but the seat belts did their job admirably and held us in place. My mental state was extreme annoyance with myself - and that remains. Everyone assumes that one will be in shock. Well, perhaps I’m not the best judge of whether I was in shock, but I don’t think so. As the day wore on, annoyance was joined guilt and remorse. The whole thing could so easily have been avoided. I was a complete idiot. And then there is the grief. I loved my Berlingo. It wasn’t really replaceable. My gut reaction is to buy it back from the insurance company, and have it repaired, but I have a feeling that would be very expensive, and utterly irrational. If I don’t go down the route, it will have to be replaced, but what with? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:02   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - R.P.

Sorry to hear about that - easily done in this weather. Hope you and the other half are OK. As to replacing it - Another Berlingo ?(Now that Humph has sold his Mondeo anyway...) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:03   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - smokie

Sorry to hear that Tyro. A mate had a "moment" on the M4 on Saturday and damaged his BMW. He' susually a very competent driver. Apparently road was snow packed, very little traffic and he was tootling along around 30 in the nearside lane. He's not really aware of the cause but thinks he must have blipped the throttle which set the back out, next thing is he's hit the central reservation barriers and done quite a bit of damage but only to the o/s wing/headlight etc. At least he's OK - that's the main thing :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:08   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - BiggerBadderDave

Don't be too hard on yourself. They say that every man should build a house, kill a bear and roll a car at some point in his life. You've got a fantastic story for down the pub - that's the main thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:16   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> Don't be too hard on yourself. They say that every man should build a house, >> kill a bear and roll a car at some point in his life. wow, I feel such a tragic failure, I have only done one! >> You've got a fantastic story for down the pub - that's the main thing. Indeed, I have dined out on the Bus story for years. Welcome to the "accident of note" club, a select breed. Re the Berlingo, of course it was a much loved car, but of course its replaceable. Like the dogs trust, there is a berlingo out there wagging its tale just dying to meet you. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:29   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - hobby

>> >> Don't be too hard on yourself. They say that every man should build a >> house, >> >> kill a bear and roll a car at some point in his life. >> >> wow, I feel such a tragic failure, I have only done one! >> I've not done any... so far... I still have to get into work today... >> Like the dogs trust, there is a berlingo out there wagging its tale just >> dying to meet you. >> LOL! I think its a case of "there but for the grace of God" for most of us reading the OP! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:21   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Perky Penguin

And there two things that no man should EVER try, it is said. Incest and Morris Dancing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:43   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Manatee

I don't think Bax singled out Morris dancing - he included all 'folk' dancing IIRC. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:07   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - ToMoCo

Glad you are OK Obivious choice would be another Berlingo, otherwise, something with a lower CoG ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:25   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - -

Oh yes when you've done something daft the self kicking hurts far more than any damage done at the time, i doubt there's anyone here hasn't been in your shoes T. I presume the Berlingo is the old shape, well i didn't believe that the new one could possibly better the old one but believe me it's a much better car in every way, a bit bigger but lower (and wider..;) and drives really nicely. Take a test drive in one anyway if you haven't already. I'm really glad you both got out without serious hurt, as i often say...if that's the worse that happens to us we shan't be done so bad. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:27   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

Very sorry to read that tyro. It's very upsetting to crash a car badly. But you will get over it. You and your missus have reason to be grateful for the seatbelt, that invention we all found so annoying when it first appeared, and the soft interiors cars have these days. You wouldn't want to have a gashed scalp along with everything else. I hope it isn't annoying to say I am glad you are both all right. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:33   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Statistical Outlier

Sounds like the sort of thing that could happen to any of us in these conditions. I've wondered sometimes what the effect would be of coming sideways off snow onto cleared tarmac - sounds like you've answered that one for us. Not good. Anyway, given you went over, it's a bit of a result to have got away with such minor injuries. Shame about the car though. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:42   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

At least your Ok, that's the main thing. ;) Its actually pretty cathartic to write about your incidents like in a place like this, its rather like confession I suspect. Couple of things strike me. "I was doing 50 rather than my normal 40" "I was pretty annoyed" (because he was taking my road space?) "I should have slowed but didn't" You had other things on your mind, Late? stressed? In a bad mood? In a rush? Its funny how stuff like that can play a part in your driving. My last major accident was because I was overly laid back and chilled out. Previous day had been stressful, this day was not - relaxed and switched off! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:13   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Falkirk Bairn

>> My last major accident was because I was overly laid back and chilled out. Previous day >> had been stressful, this day was not - relaxed and switched off! >> How many major accidents have you had? In 47 years driving and driving 25/30K per years for 30 of those years I have had only 1 x accident (hit uo the back doing 30 mph in snowy conditions) when I was moving at more than 10 mph - all the other 4/5 have been people running up the back when stationary or crawling in traffic. Maybe I have just been lucky. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:18   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> >> My last major accident was because I was overly laid back and chilled out. >> Previous day >> had been stressful, this day was not - relaxed and switched off! >> >> >> >> How many major accidents have you had? 1 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:20   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - R.P.

And we don't let him forget it either, despite the fact it was his "friend" driving...:-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 09:44   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - helicopter

Well glad you and missus are OK tyro - Are your ears OK ? I only ask as I expect your other half is probably giving your ears a good bending........ I know mine would if I had done the same. As you live in the highlands I would suggest that you look out for a 4x4 to give you some additional grip. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:03   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Iffy

I would like to know if a hatchback or supermini would have gone over in the same circumstances. I've always thought these smallish glass vans look as if they have a high centre of gravity. interesting to read from gb the new Berlingo is wider, perhaps Citroen carried out a moose test on the old one. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:17   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - -

>> I would like to know if a hatchback or supermini would have gone over in >> the same circumstances. Some of the newer designs look top heavy and are much higher than previous models, Panda/Spark/Ka/i10 etc, they look unstable to my eyes but no doubt are fine. I don't think van based motors like Berlingo's are really any worse than many cars, possibly the narrow track of older Berlingo doesn't help but i've seen them being hammered round corners at gravity defying speeds the tyres nearly off the rims and no sign of instability. I think any normal vehicle can flip once you're sideways if it finds enough grip or an obstacle, who knows? Tyro's Berlie might have found a pot hole or touched the kerb at the moment of 90 degree turn and that clout and slowing might have just done for him...another time an obstacle might have righted them. Could you get a supermini and recreate the accident please Tyro, Iffy and i would lke to know..:-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:36   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - movilogo

Bad things do happen in lives. You are ok, that is the main thing here! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:23   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Netsur

I reckon Berlingo's and the like have a CoG that is not so much higher than normal cars. It's mainly air up top not a solid gold brick. More importantly, if we drove cars with summer tyres but were the width and profile of tyres 20 years ago, we would probably have far more grip than the stupid low profile steam roller things we have today. We have all done something stupid in a car, usually we get away with it, sometimes we don't. Its good to get it off your chest. Take it as an opportunity to review your car needs, your driving habits and enjoy Christmas looking for a new car. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:34   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Iffy

...It's mainly air up top not a solid gold brick... The same could be said of panel or Luton van, but they can be prone to flopping over. I saw a Transit tip on its side as it negotiated a roundabout I was about to join. The driver wasn't going that fast, but I could see the tip coming and hung back to watch it happen. The van teetered on two wheels for a few yards before gently going over. It was driven by a young guy who had what I assumed to be his mother in the passenger seat. Both were Asian and she was wearing a sari. Clambering out of a tipped over van wearing one of those was not easy for the poor woman. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:36   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - BiggerBadderDave

"We have all done something stupid in a car" I've been practising my hand brake turns in the cul-de-sac the last few days. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:41   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Skoda

>> I was doing about 50, instead of my usual >> 40 these days. Hooligan ;-) Glad you and your wife are alright! A lump of metal on 4 wheels is easily replaced. Maybe this is the first case for *not* fitting winters, if you had less grip, you'd just have spun rather than rolled! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 10:49   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - MD

Temporarily 'lost' Jimny evening before last. I had been everywhere in the afternoon seeking out un-driven lanes (well boys do don't they?). Trundling home at about 25mph it exited left, hit a low bank with the nearside front wheel and bounced around like Tigger. Felt annoyed at myself too, but luckily stayed upright. Thank heavens it went unseen!! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:14   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Cliff Pope

A friend has just put his LandRover in the ditch down his own drive on its first outing of the winter. On ice or unpredictably variable surfaces cars are terrifyingly unstable even at walking speed. Last winter I ground to a halt on an uphill section on a minor road, and the brakes then wouldn't hold it it stationary. It slowly slithered backwards down the hill, turned through 180 degrees in slow motion, and then gently bumped sideways against the edge of a rut at the side of the road. Even at barely 1 mph it rocked and felt as if it was going to roll straight over. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:18   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Boxsterboy

How refreshing in today's 'blame culture' to see someone actually owning up and admitting that they were an idiot, and not blame: 1. The council for not gritting the road. 2. The other driver for not getting out of their way. 3. The car's tyres for being bald. 4. whatever else springs to mind. Thank you. As for the Berlingo - there must be plenty out there that will be a faithful replacement. Last edited by: Boxsterboy on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 11:18 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:13   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - madf

At least you're OK - that's the main thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:27   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Alanovich

tyro, I've been in a roll before when driving (an MG Metro off the M40), and was lucky to get out alive. I know how you're feeling. One thing to think about though - is it wise to admit guilt for this on an open forum, when you're about to make an insurance claim? Will they not be able to say that they will not pay out as you were not driving with due care and attention, should this admission come to their attention? Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:49   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Iffy

...is it wise to admit guilt for this on an open forum... A fair thought, but there's no police involvement, so I don't think the OP has any prosecution pending. Also, the forum is effectively anonymous. The chances are tiny someone from the insurance company will see this thread, realise it applies to their client, ask the management for the OP's email, and trace him from that. Bear in mind all of the above steps would have to be taken, not just most of them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:50   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - ToMoCo

Will they not >> be able to say that they will not pay out as you were not driving >> with due care and attention, should this admission come to their attention? >> Every accident though could be described as lack of due care? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:53   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Crankcase

They pay out irrespective of blame don't they? I had a 14k write off, prosecuted and found guilty for due care in court, and there was never a hint the insurance wouldn't pay. Indeed, their offer was more generous than we had anticipated. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 11:53   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> Will they not >> be able to say that they will not pay out as you were not driving >> with due care and attention, One of the few exclusion clauses that insurers are not able to get away with. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 12:12   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Hard Cheese

Bad news, car and pride damaged :-( Good news, you and wife are fine :-) Sounds like the car is too badly damaged to warrant a repair. The engine could also be damaged if it was running while on its side. While I am sure the Beerlingo is great there are a lot of others just as worthy so perhaps open your horizons rather than automatically jumping at another one. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:18   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Update number 1. Thanks everyone for your comments, which are much appreciated. I won't reply at this stage, except to say that RF is right when he says "Its actually pretty cathartic to write about your incidents like in a place like this, its rather like confession I suspect " - and to add that what is even better is to be able to come to a place like this where I can get comment that is not just sympathetic, but also knowledgeable and helpful. I've been on the telephone a fair amount. I got a recommendation for an independent body-shop in Inverness, and spoke to them. I told them that I expected the insurance company to write off the vehicle, but that I would be interested in buying it back from the insurance company and having it repaired - if it was feasible and not too expensive. He told me to bring it in and he'd have a look. I've spoken to my insurance company, who were very helpful. They didn't mention the words "write off", and asked about who I wanted to inspect the damage. I told them about the place in Inverness, and that seemed fine to them. I told them that I would make my own arrangement to get the vehicle to Inverness and keep the receipt, and then spoke to a local bloke who has a transporter and he said that he would transport my car to the body shop in Inverness. What with the weather, etc, it won't get to Inverness any time soon. I'm assuming that when it does, the cost of repairs will make it uneconomic to repair, and the insurance company will declare it a write off, at which stage I negotiate with them to buy the car back if it seems that it can be done at a price acceptable to me, and if not, then I negotiate with the insurance company about how much my vehicle is worth. Or something like that. Have I got that right? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:21   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - movilogo

You probably attached yourself emotionally with the car! Even if it can be repaired, you might face more unexpected repairs later. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:25   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - rtj70

How much do you think it's worth? The formula for writing a car off is based on the cost of repair as a percentage of the car's worth. So if it's worth £5000 and it would cost £4000 to repair for example, it is certainly a write off. Glad you and the wife are okay after the ordeal. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:46   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Alanovich

>> One of the few exclusion clauses that insurers are not able to get away with. >> So is it carte blanche for anyone to drive without due regard for the road and weather conditions? Must say I'm a little surprised by this. If a driver admits he was doing something he shouldn't have been and wasn't taking sufficient care, the insurers still have to pay out? I'm pleased for tyro personally that he'll get it sorted, but as a general principle surely this can't be right? I'm also surprised that it's me asking this and not Mapmaker......... Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:48   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

*every* accident is down to someone's due care and attention, or lack of. If you exclude that there is no point in insurance. That's why its so expensive. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:57   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - spamcan61

>> *every* accident is down to someone's due care and attention, or lack of. If you >> exclude that there is no point in insurance. That's why its so expensive. >> +1 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 13:50   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

"One thing to think about though - is it wise to admit guilt for this on an open forum...?" Important question, Alanović. I think it merits a quick answer. My thoughts, which parallel the thoughts of Iffy, ToMoCo, Crankcase & RF, are: 1) There was no other car involved, and I have told the insurance company that, and as such, I have admitted responsibility already. Not much choice, really. In this forum, I have also admitted idiocy. I don't know how much interest that is to the insurance company. As for guilt, I haven't admitted that I was guilty of any offence. 2) The police were informed of the accident at the time. Their view was that if there was no other car involved, and the carriageway was not blocked, they didn't need to know. 3) PU has read the post, and did not, at first reading, consider that there was anything particularly unwise about it. I realise that he has not given a professional opinion, and that there may be other contributors who have professional expertise, particularly regarding insurance matters, that surpasses PU's, but I am assuming that there isn't a major problem. If PU has further thoughts, and wishes to exercise his moderatorial powers to excise anything unwise, then fair enough. Last edited by: tyro on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 13:52 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 14:09   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - R.P.

It's a matter for you tyro - you've coughed the job, not blaming anyone else, and you claim is worded in much the same way, what's the issue ?, if your wife wasn't injured it's not a reportable RTA (or C whatever). We'll remove if you want. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 14:18   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Thanks for that, PU. I can't see any reason to remove it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 14:12   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - movilogo

If OP's insurer refuses to pay out (which is extremely unlikely) by citing this thread, the mods can always delete it ;-) Insurers can't refuse payout on this case. Otherwise they'd refuse every possible claim by citing some form of negligence. Only drink driving, driving while disqualified etc. are excluded from claims. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 14:25   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - teabelly

Unfortunately you learned the hard way that here is bog all grip on slush which could also have ice underneath. Even at 20 mph you may have slid. Breaking hard at 50 could have also caused the same spin. You were just travelling far too fast for the conditions. If there is only one single track through then you need to halve your usual speed approaching a corner in time to slow right down or even stop if the road is so bad you think you should only be on the tarmac bit. It's best to be too cautious and get on people's tits sometimes. I did a little test turning into a corner and deliberately putting 3 wheels on the snowy bit to see as I knew it would slide towards the tarmac further down and re-grip if it would slide. This was probably 15 mph max and you have little control so at 40 it's not going to be there either. Just get another berlingo and get some winter tyres! The only way to drive in this weather is to imagine a glass of wine on the bonnet and you don't want to spill any or let the glass fall over under any circumstances. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 21:01 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 16:38   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Response post 1 Again, your posts are appreciated. Many thanks. Smokie, Martin Devon, Cliff - it's always comforting to hear other people have had similar experience - especially if it was recent. BBD: "They say that every man should build a house, kill a bear and roll a car at some point in his life." I suspect that I'll stop at one. :-) RF: "Welcome to the "accident of note" club, a select breed. Re the Berlingo, of course it was a much loved car, but of course its replaceable. Like the dogs trust, there is a berlingo out there wagging its tale just dying to meet you."Thank you for your kind words of welcome. And I must confess that the idea of Berlingos as friendly dogs is quite appealing. gordonbennet: "Oh yes when you've done something daft the self kicking hurts far more than any damage done at the time" Excellent point. Very perceptive. "i doubt there's anyone here hasn't been in your shoes T." I suppose that you must be right. Sometimes, however, when one feels particularly idiotic, one doubts it! AC: "But you will get over it." Yes, I'm sure I will. We never get over it as quickly as we would like, but this thread is helping. "You wouldn't want to have a gashed scalp along with everything else." Very true. I must keep reminding myself of that. SO: "I've wondered sometimes what the effect would be of coming sideways off snow onto cleared tarmac - sounds like you've answered that one for us." Interesting. My wife is a physics teacher, and wondered why we toppled over. She suspects that it was hitting the verge sideways - but it could well have been coming onto the cleared tarmac. RF: "Couple of things strike me. "I was doing 50 rather than my normal 40" "I was pretty annoyed" (because he was taking my road space?) "I should have slowed but didn't" You had other things on your mind, Late? stressed? In a bad mood? In a rush? Its funny how stuff like that can play a part in your driving. My last major accident was because I was overly laid back and chilled out. Previous day had been stressful, this day was not - relaxed and switched off!" Good questions. No, I wasn't late, stressed, in a bad mood, or in a rush. I was fairly relaxed. Going at 50 was, to some extent, a mark of being in an enthusiastic sort of mood. Annoyed because there was very little traffic on the road, and the thought of having to brake hard irritated me. Irrational? Of course, but hey, that's what we humans are like. retpocileh: "Are your ears OK ? I only ask as I expect your other half is probably giving your ears a good bending........ I know mine would if I had done the same." Ha! Good question. Very good. I feared an ear bending, but didn't get it. It truth, my wife has been really good about it. iffy (& also gb & Espada & ToMoCo): "I would like to know if a hatchback or supermini would have gone over in the same circumstances. I've always thought these smallish glass vans look as if they have a high centre of gravity." So would I. The centre of gravity question is one that I've wondered about a few times since it happened. But I'll have to wonder, because I'm not planning to repeat the experiment with the Ford. Espada: "More importantly, if we drove cars with summer tyres but were the width and profile of tyres 20 years ago, we would probably have far more grip than the stupid low profile steam roller things we have today." Interestingly enough, my Berlingo's tyres are/were 175/70 R14. "We have all done something stupid in a car, usually we get away with it, sometimes we don't. " Exactly. I've done a lot of stupid things in a car, and usually I get away with it, which (alas) probably encourages me . . . Skoda: "Maybe this is the first case for *not* fitting winters, if you had less grip, you'd just have spun rather than rolled!" & also Teabelly "get some winter tyres!" Interesting thought, Skoda. I wonder . . . . Intriguingly enough, just to make the story more interesting, I had a flat tyre about 10 days ago. I didn't stop quickly enough (idiot!) and the tyre was not repairable. So the rear passenger side wheel had the spare on, which wasn't a winter tyre. I don't know, but I doubt that it made much difference. I immediately ordered a replacement from Mytyres. Their estimated date of delivery was on Friday, but the new tyre arrived today. Cheddar: "The engine could also be damaged if it was running while on its side." I can't be certain, but I think that the engine cut out pretty quickly. If not, I think I got it turned off. But, as I say - I'm not sure. My memory of the few seconds before I left the car is vague. (And you are very right about the damage to pride!) OK - enough responses for now. More anon. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 21:01 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:05   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

Some advice. Dont have the old one fixed. If its damaged the A post its never gonna be the same. The engine is never going to be healthy by running on its side, and its going to have some undesirable memories, if not for you then for the wife. Love it and leave it, kiss it good bye. Its only a Berlingo, just the same as any other Berlingo, in fact there are probably better out there... Brutal I know, but its done its job, had its day, and it didnt bite your head off. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:25   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Hard Cheese

>> So the rear passenger side wheel had the spare on, which wasn't a winter tyre. >> I do hope that wont be an insurance issue, I guess not if a space saver is legal, I mean a std size tyre should be suitable as a spare when using winter tyres. Others may be able to advise further. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:41   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Iffy

The right of insurance companies to refuse to pay if your driving is dodgy is an interesting one. As far as I can gather the insurance company cannot refuse to pay if you are subsequently convicted of dangerous driving, let alone due care. Equally, it is a popular fallacy they can refuse a claim if you are convicted of drink driving. That one's obvious if you think about it, there are plenty of circumstances were you could be over the limit, but the accident was largely the other guy's fault and it's settled with some liability on each side. I think the insurance company can refuse to pay if the claim arises out of a deliberate act on the part of the insured. An example might be if you deliberately rammed the building society branch to dislodge the cash machine. If anyone can add to or correct the above, please do so. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:48   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> An example might be if you deliberately rammed the building society branch to dislodge the >> cash machine. >> >> If anyone can add to or correct the above, please do so. I think the people you squash against the cash machine will still be able to claim from your insurance company. I don't think the bank can claim for a new cash machine, and you certainly wont get your money for the wrecked car. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:28   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Woodster

Tyro - sympathy from me and the wife looking over my shoulder, and you're a credit to yourself with the frankness of your original post. Could've been any of us I'm sure, no-one's perfect or beyond making errors of judgment. rather useless now to say it but fortunately no-one's hurt. I've got the rather uncomfortable and sadly becoming familiar feeling of agreeing with Zero (!) leave the car behind, it's just a machine. And you broke it!! (I'll be going a little slower to work tonight...) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:34   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - R.P.

The main thing of course.....:-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 17:39   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Netsur

"My wife is a physics teacher, and wondered why we toppled over. She suspects that it was hitting the verge sideways" I came off my pushbike in September by clipping the edge of the kerb at too narrow an angle. Scraped shin and sprained thumb/hand. If I can do it on a bike, it can be done in a "Berlingo on Ice". Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 19:44   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Woodster

Iffy - I'm afraid you're wrong on the drink/drive and insurance issue. Most (mine included) restrict their liability to that which they must honour under the Road Traffic Act, if you're convicted of drink driving. It matters not whose fault the accident was. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 19:52   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Iffy

...Iffy - I'm afraid you're wrong on the drink/drive and insurance issue... No worries. Liability under the Road Traffic Act presumably means third party. In other words, if you are hit by a drunk driver, you can claim for your damage. The drunk driver won't get anything out of his insurance company, regardless if he's fully comp or not. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 21:19   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Replacement options Assuming that I do follow RF's sensible advice at 17:05 (though movilogo is quite correct in writing "You probably attached yourself emotionally with the car!") - what are my options? Several of you have suggested another Berlingo, which is the obvious starting point. gb gets more specific: "I presume the Berlingo is the old shape, well i didn't believe that the new one could possibly better the old one but believe me it's a much better car in every way, a bit bigger but lower (and wider..;) and drives really nicely. Take a test drive in one anyway if you haven't already." I have already done so - as recorded here: www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=931&m=15209 As you can see, I'm not totally convinced, though it is the most obvious choice. I'd really like to go for an old one - which would mean buying second hand. And in many ways, buying 2nd hand is the economically sensible option - and would be my inclination. There are, however, 3 good reasons why for buying new. 1) It means that I can spec the vehicle exactly the way I want it, 2) It means that I know the history of the vehicle, and 3) My wife really doesn't like the idea of getting a second hand vehicle. You know - things like "It might have been used to carry dogs, it might smell, things might have been spilled in it, it might be dirty" - as well as "they may never have changed the oil" etc. She really likes stuff to be shiny, new, and pristine. So - where does that leave us? I haven't worked out a budget yet, but we'll say "up to £12,000 - but less would be nice." Main priority is space. (There are other things, we'll leave that for the moment.) VWWs, other MPVs, and estates are what we would be looking at. If new, the obvious contenders would be Berlingo/Partner - or maybe Kangoo, Doblo or Roomster. If 2nd hand, some estates I'd consider are the Honda Accord, Toyota Avensis, Ford Mondeo, Volvo V70, Skoda Octavia, Subaru Legacy / Outback / Forester. MPVs I'd think about would be the Ford C-Max and the Toyota Verso. And of course, there are old Berlingos. In fact, there are a few I've spotted on line that really attract me. Problem is, they are hundreds of miles away. If anyone is good at looking over 2nd hand cars (and I reckon that pretty well all of you are better at it than I am!) and is in St. Albans or Sutton Coldfield, and would like to test drive a 2nd hand Berlingo, just let me know. :-) Last edited by: tyro on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 21:20 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 21:45   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

. . . in St. Albans or Sutton Coldfield . . . or Tooting. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 21:46   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - -

I don't remember reading your test of the new Berlie T, though possibly did and have forgotten. Good write up by the way and you sound quite impressed by the car with reservations. Being the old stick in the mud i am i didn't like the new Berlie when we first started to deliver them, thought it too big and i had a similar affection to you for the old one, being simple rugged tough easy peasy to drive, the petrol especially pleasing being torquey and willing to rev down to stall speed and still pull...something other PSA cars with presumably the same engine but different settings cannot without dying. However after a couple of months of heaving them on and off the truck i found the new one to be equally robust and controllable but with more comfort and a better feeling of solidity than the previous...i didn't want to feel this but did and i really like them a lot, quite why no one thought to offer a proper torque converter automatic option is a mystery neither i or the many frustrated dealers i spoke to will never understand. None of the faffing about with some other Diesels coaxing them to provide enough power without revving the guts out of them or slipping the clutch to get them to climb onto the top deck, the new model just romped up there exactly like the old one, and retained the supple suspension that makes the model ideal for third world Britains road surfaces. I thought the Diesel quiet, i wonder if the one you tried was a bit off in some way. Short of some 4x4's including Forester i haven't found any other vehicle to be as comfortable over rough roads as both Berlie models, save maybe the respective Picasso's that share the underpinnings. I urge you to retry the new model again, though obviously this is the ideal time to rethink what you'd like in a vehicle, best of luck. Oh and like the others i wouldn't want the car back after such a prang, or indeed after being stolen by scum. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:08   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Thanks for that, gb. Some useful thoughts there. "I thought the Diesel quiet, i wonder if the one you tried was a bit off in some way." That thought had also entered my mind. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:22   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Hard Cheese

>> "I thought the Diesel quiet, i wonder if the one you tried was a bit >> off in some way." >> >> That thought had also entered my mind. >> I had a C4 Picasso with the PSA/Ford 1.6 110 engine for a week in France last year and it felt harsh, punchy enough for its size though a bit rough frankly, I thought there might have been something wrong with it. I have driven a C-Max with the same engine and a Fiesta with the 90bhp version both of which felt more refined engine wise. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 21:27   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Bagpuss

>> "My wife is a physics teacher, and wondered why we toppled over. She suspects that >> it was hitting the verge sideways" One of the reasons cars flip over is the law of conservation of momentum. High built vehicles with long suspension travel are particularly prone as, once the car is not travelling forwards any more, the energy stored in the springs and a higher centre of gravity conspire against you. Having said that, a mate of mine rolled a Vauxhall Viva when he was 17, but the wall he hit previously might have contributed to that. Particularly nasty are the rollover accidents in the USA involving ladder frame SUVs which flip over relatively easily in accidents and then crush the occupants due to the relatively soft structure of these apparently very strong vehicles. Glad to hear you are ok, a tribute to the structural strength of properly built modern cars. I would agree with most of the posters here, don't get the car repaired. I had a big crash about 20 years ago and when I went to the dealer afterwards to get my stuff out of the car my blood ran cold to see it. It was written off by the insurance company (3 months old) and I was glad to see the back of it even though I replaced it with an identical one. Never been involved in a crash caused by me but had a number of "moments" where I thought afterwards "Wow, that was close". Inadvertently getting my company car sideways on the ice last winter was one example. Hope you don't get too many condescending posts from people who've never had a close shave, in which case it's fair to assume they have but didn't have the observational skills to notice. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 21:34   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Old Navy

>> in which case it's fair to assume >> they have but didn't have the observational skills to notice. >> And also fair to assume they are not such poor drivers to get sideways on ice. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:14   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> such poor drivers to get sideways on ice. Good God ON, I thought you were a driver. Nothing easier than getting sideways on ice. Presumably you are so good you've never been sideways under any conditions, either deliberately or as a result of over-enthusiasm? In my book that means you are inexperienced because you've never tried to lose adhesion to see what it's like and learn to control it. I hope I am wrong. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:29   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Old Navy

I take it you believe that the more you spin your drive wheels the more chance you have of moving. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:31   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> I take it you believe that the more you spin your drive wheels the more >> chance you have of moving. Nah - we just like hanging the back out in lurid tale slides because, well you know, its fun. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:32   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> the more you spin your drive wheels the more chance you have of moving. Take what you like ON. Drivers can tell the difference between wheelspin and lateral movement. Evidently to you they are indistinguishable. Tchah! Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:39   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Zero

>> I take it you believe that the more you spin your drive wheels the more >> chance you have of moving. That is just one of the tools in the box in weather like this. There are times when the lightest touch of clutch on tickover is required. There are times when balls out spinning drive wheels are required. And there are any shade of degrees in between to be employed. If they get you going, or keep you going all equally valid. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:38   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - -

All the years miles i've done and it's still damned easy to get caught out, a few weeks ago i left the yard one morning in the first cold snap. In a Volvo empty artic which have one of the best automatic retarders in the business, it was on number 3 it's highest setting. I approached a roundabout on the industrial estate road and just as i entered the roundabout the automated manual decided to kick down another gear, course the retarder kicked in straight away and locked the drive axle wheels as i'd hit a patch of ice just at that moment..oops possible genuine jack knife situation, flicked the retarder off and recovered but it could easily have gone wrong. Now as i've said before i've been lucky over the years, and to be fair i should have noticed the truck was on full retard mode (possibly including the one behind the wheel) but i didn't. 3 million miles or so and i nearly fold it up a mile from the depot, hang me head in shame. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, sometimes circumstances combine to get you. Yes i've thrown the back out deliberately with an artic, in fact with probably every combination of vehicle i've driven, i want to know how to recover it where there's time to learn...when it happens by accident there's usually no time and no room for error. Also as designs change the way they respond changes, you never know it all IMO. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 22:41 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:54   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> i want to know how to recover it where there's time to learn...when it happens by accident there's usually no time and no room for error. Of course anyone can come to grief when circumstances conspire GB. But the point I have been trying to make with ON (which would be useful to many others too) is that without ever trying to lose it on purpose when it seems safe to do so you never learn how to gather it up again and recover. Under the very, very slippery conditions of the last couple of days my car has given many a wriggle, but not enough to be noticed even by a passenger. That's because over the years one learns to be absolutely on top of what's happening and correction becomes instantaneous and instinctive. Without the gung-ho experimental stage in youth though I doubt if people develop that speed, accuracy and delicacy of touch. Certainly no one who thinks a skid on ice is an appalling experience is ever going to acquire it. Your account of your full-retard Volvo experience illustrates my point. You know what you are doing when something has just started to happen, you do the right thing and recover. People who are phobic about going sideways don't stand a chance of learning how to do that. Hence my scolding tone with ON. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 06:34   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - swiss tony

>> Of course anyone can come to grief when circumstances conspire GB. But the point I >> have been trying to make with ON (which would be useful to many others too) >> is that without ever trying to lose it on purpose when it seems safe to >> do so you never learn how to gather it up again and recover. There used to be a large, flat, carpark near me, (now buried by a shopping centre) where I learnt my knowledge of driving on ice. Handbrake turns, flicking the steering, flooring the throttle, locking the brakes, were some of the things I'd do, to unsettle (spin!) the car. Thus I feel (more) confident of driving in weather conditions like we have now. I still prefer RWD though... I found (given the space) I was more likely to recover, using throttle, brakes and steering, than I could in a FWD.... at times I could cross the carpark sideways in a rwd (backend out, and steering into the slide ie wheels it the direction of travel) where the FWD would lose all traction/steering. Last edited by: swiss tony on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 06:37 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 11:06   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - SteelSpark

>> Of course anyone can come to grief when circumstances conspire GB. But the point I >> have been trying to make with ON (which would be useful to many others too) >> is that without ever trying to lose it on purpose when it seems safe to >> do so you never learn how to gather it up again and recover. I recently had a go at this on the empty roof level of a hospital car park. Very useful experience and a nearby A&E department. :) Had a bit of a hairy moment a couple of days ago, having to come up a steepish ramp and turning out onto a steeper hill. All good fun. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:28   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Bagpuss

>> And also fair to assume they are not such poor drivers to get sideways on ice. Have to admit to switching off the ESP off on some of the icy roads here and deliberately getting sideways. At about 20km/h, but good fun none the less. I suggest you try it, in a front wheel drive car just jank the steering wheel suddenly to upset the back end or alternatively use the handbrake. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:33   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Old Navy

I learned how to power steer a car (and HGV) about 40 years ago. I don't need to prove anything. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 20 Dec 10 22:56   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> I learned how to power steer a car (and HGV) about 40 years ago. I don't need to prove anything. I am very relieved to hear it ON. 'Power steer' is a curious expression though. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 22:58 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:12   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Number_Cruncher

>>'Power steer' is a curious expression though. I think it's the correct one though, and I applaud its use. Confusing traction or braking induced gross skidding with the more important and subtle phenomena of understeer and oversteer is all too common, especially with motoring journalists and certain TV presenters. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:25   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> I think it's the correct one though, and I applaud its use. So instead of applauding, and chucking accusations of confusion around at random in your usual unjustifiably supercilious manner, NC, why don't you tell us what this odd, American-sounding expression means? Sounds a bit like traction-induced 'gross skidding' to me. But I long to be enlightened. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:37   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

And incidentally NC, understeer and oversteer ought to be subtle but they are sometimes anything but, as any experienced fule kno. Spend a day at the hairpin during VSCC Shelsley Walsh if you don't believe me. Or try rushing about in old American cars which, I assure you, can sometimes manifest both characteristics in rapid succession when pushed. And no, I don't mean under braking or hard acceleration: just cornering. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 00:08   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Number_Cruncher

You know exactly what I mean AC, my post couldn't have been much more clear or much less random. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 21 Dec 10 00:21   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> my post couldn't have been much more clear or much less random. I do slightly regret my acerbity NC. You aren't an idiot in these matters. But I still don't quite get 'power steering', unless it means inducing oversteer or understeer by squeezing the loud pedal. I do get a bit annoyed by Top Gear when they go round corners quite slowly in clouds of smoke burning perhaps 50 quid's worth of rubber off the back tyres and taking two or three years off the service life of some snorting £75 grand V8's transmission. But it's a sort of soft porn that appeals to the what'll she do mister audience. I'm sorry to say that if I were young, pretty and lucky enough I'd do it myself for those stonking wages. I'm too old now to abuse machines for fun though. I prefer quite a lot of machines to quite a lot of humans. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 00:36   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Number_Cruncher

Yes, you have got exactly the gist of my point - I applaud ON's avoidance of the lazy and incorrect use of oversteer or understeer when what's being described is a skid on the drive axle caused by the application of too much power. One point of car dynamics which gets missed by this mis-use of the terms is that understeer and oversteer effects are happening long before lairy yaw angles, improbable steer angles and tyre smoke are produced. If I may make a culinary comparison, you might liken it to no longer being able to taste the subtle flavour of the beef because of the overpowering Madras sauce. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 21 Dec 10 01:11   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

I still don't really see why you had to applaud it though NC. I don't remember anyone mentioning oversteer or understeer in this thread which is about driving in very slippery conditions and 'getting sideways', or not getting sideways. In these sorts of conditions very slight inputs can start to cause 'gross skidding' unless the driver reacts promptly and accurately (and as some have suggested, sometimes even then). The chassis dynamics of the vehicle may not be involved at all. One end of the car or the other may start to poke out simply as a result of tramlining on some uneven packed snow or ice. It's happened to me a lot in the last two days, without drama so far. Of course I agree that under- and oversteer are present, and can be detected by an understanding pilot, at moderate speeds long before tyre squeal and that sort of thing appear. But they aren't always subtle by any means. The nearest thing to drama was yesterday and nothing to do with going sideways. I overshot a left turn off a straight rural road covered with packed polished snow - no other vehicles in sight - simply because I approached the turn slightly too quickly on purpose to try the ABS in earnest. It worked all right - the car tracked straight - but at the turn it was still going a bit too fast to make the turn tidily, so I simply overshot, reversed back and made the turn. All of this of course at the near-mimsing speeds dictated by the conditions. Confirmed my slight dislike of ABS. But you can get used to it. It probably does more good than harm in general use. But it isn't an enthusiast driver's thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 12:22   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - John H

>> So instead of applauding, and chucking accusations of confusion around at random in your usual >> unjustifiably supercilious manner, >> Pot calling kettle black comes to mind. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 13:04   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

>> Pot calling kettle black comes to mind. Loud, vulgar raspberry. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:06   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Robin O'Reliant

Glad you and the better half are ok Tyro. I don't feel quite so bad now. Today I stupidly took a rural shortcut between two villages in North Pembs rather than staying on the well gritted main road to Cardigan and cutting back along another main road. The road was lightly snow covered and as I went further along it gradually turned to ice, and as it was mainly heading downhill I reached a point where I could not turn back as I was sliding even at low speed on the descents. About 3/4 of the way along I touched the brake at about 15mph and lost it completely, sliding gently into a shallow ditch. I was stuck fast, no way forward or back as the wheels were just spinning. Fortunately I had a shovel in the boot and managed to scoop enough earth from the bank and pack it under the nearside wheel which eventually gave me enough purchase to get out, aided I suspect by the heat from the running engine melting the ice. A scary experience as I did not see another car on the road till after I had got going again, the locals obviously knowing enough to avoid that route like the plague. My heart was in my mouth till I reached the main road again as even a couple of gentle slopes were a challenge to get up. You can talk all you like about skid control, but as many on here have said no matter how careful you are sometimes it will just catch you out and you are in the lap of the Gods. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:11   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Armel Coussine

Yes there is ice like that. You can't even drive down a straight bit of road because the car slips down the camber. The only thing to do then is stop somewhere. Happened to me in 1962 at a place called Cullompton in Devon. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:30   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

Oh, and here is something else to add to the replacement equation. I found a nice looking 2005 Legacy estate not a million miles from here (OK, 190 miles - but in this part of the world, someone 40 miles away is your neighbour!) Private seller, FSSH and well priced. Any thoughts? My wife, by the way, is a bit wary about buying from a private seller. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:43   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - legacylad

I know that my 330 is poor in the snow, but last night managed to 'drive' down a steep twisty road off our small estate mostly sideways, making careful note beforehand of where the streetlights were and staying as far away as possible. Initially. Once safely at the bottom..I came down in first with both feet tucked under the pedals so as not to be tempted to touch the brakes, my neighbour came down in his Land Cruiser. Backwards, demolishing 30ft of fencing. He admitted to not putting it in low ratio, being in neutral, and hitting the brakes hard (er)when it started to slide. Fortunately, very little damage to the Cruiser, only superficial scratches. Shame about the fence though. Just goes to show, nothing grips on ice. Apart from studded tyres & crampons Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Dec 10 23:46   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - legacylad

Tyro, is it a Spec B estate? if so, yes please. And I nearly always buy privately, so long as you keep your wits about you. Pay just as much attention to the buyer (his wife, children, house etc) as the actual car. Last edited by: legacylad on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 23:48 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 08:17   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - tyro

No, not a Spec B, I'm afraid. This is it: tinyurl.com/37kxl8c In fact, it's not as well priced as I originally thought. Any thoughts? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 08:53   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - DP

Drove into the (large, flat, unkerbed, unlampposted) office car park this morning, and there was just one single car parked in the far corner. It was too much to resist. Lazy 180 degree arc, handbrake on, with about half a turn of opposite lock. All the way around, and to a (slightly ABS assisted) halt in my usual parking space. Or a rough approximation of it, as the white lines haven't been visible for days. The tyre tracks are lovely. There's about a metre between the marks left by the two back wheels :-D Hope it doesn't all thaw by hometime :-D Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 11:41   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Netsur

I loved my 3.0 Outback and only sold it because of lack of passenger space for three kids. On snow you have to remember to turn off the traction control otherwise you don't get the benefit of getting the car out of tricky low speed situations. However, for your sort of driving, space needs and location I would look for a 2003-3008 Forester with the diesel engine and heated seats. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 08:48   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - WillDeBeest

Wow! A salutary and informative thread - and food for thought as I contemplate my first drive since the thick snow arrived on Saturday. My route is A road and M4, but I'll certainly be taking nothing for granted in terms of grip. Tyro, credit to you for your candour, and for helping us all to learn from your experience. 'Idiot' is far too strong a word; hope you're mobile again soon. }:---) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 10:55   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Robin O'Reliant

I was lucky in that i always put a shovel in the boot when it has snowed. I think I may invest in a large bag of cat litter to sprinkle under the tyres should I become becalmed on ice again. No good on a long iced up hill of course, but useful for getting me to the soft snow near the verge for some traction. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Dec 10 12:36   idiot + slush + bend = spin + roll + write-off - Mapmaker

That Subaru - a bit pricey - a good 1-1.5k over what I reckon he'll get, but it's got 4 new tyres, and a new 60k service. Reply to this message | Report message