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Do BMW drivers indicate in this world?
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No they do not indicate in any world ;-) Or so I am told. Not check out all worlds.
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I think it is a dying skill with many drivers regardless of the car they drive. Lazy with indicators in my book means "lazy driver" or "arrogant driver" or just "crap driver" treat with extra caution.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 12:05
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>> I think it is a dying skill with many drivers regardless of the car they
>> drive.
True. Even police drivers occasionally don't indicate.
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>> True. Even police drivers occasionally don't indicate.
>>
A police driving instructor told me not to indicate if no one will benefit, all part of observation. But you should never see it, (or lack of it).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 12:17
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'Blinking' eck. I thought this was going to be an original question. Every day is a groundhog day on some forums ;o)
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>> a groundhog day
What does that mean?
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>> What does that mean?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_(film)
great film BTW
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 13:13
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>> >> What does that mean?
>> (film)
So it's "Film Day"? Um.
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Not seen the film then FT?
Edit, Focus beat me to it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 13:13
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I have as serious concerns with indcators built-in in the headlamps (often in the inside of the lamp cluster) as I have with drivers not signalling.
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Glad you have arrived FB, more central belt support!
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>> indicators built-in in the headlamps
I've had a couple of close calls because of those. 02-04 Corsas and similar age Focii seem to be the worst.
Hello FB, by the way, good to see you ;-)
Last edited by: Dave_TD {P} on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 14:10
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I found Golf front indicators virtually impossible to see when headlights on...and the LED indicators at the back might as well go in the bin, still prefer proper orange lenses instead of this fashion for white/clear with an orange bulb...sun/lights reflect on clear too well.
While i've got steam up, you can't see truck side repeaters anymore either since truck side markers have turned orange, when we had good old red/clear split marker lenses a side repeater indicator stood out...course if the steering wheel attendent don't indicate anyway it matters not a jot...phew.
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Oh Lord - it was a tongue in cheek start to the thread and now its got all serious!
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>> >> a groundhog day
>>
>> What does that mean?
On tonight if you're interested, Fiver (Freeview 30), 7pm.
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I'm not a BMW driver, but I only use my indicators if there is a road user close enough to benefit from me doing so and if it will be of benefit to them anyway. It appears to me that most drivers use their indicators purely out of a subconcious habit, without any thought being applied. I suspect that most drivers aren't aware that they've done it, and it suggests to me that they also aren't aware of what other traffic is around them. Drivers indicate left in a left only lane, and indicate right in a right only lane. Why? I've seen drivers indicating in the middle of nowhere at 3 am when there hasn't been another vehicle within miles. Why do they do it? I like to apply some observation and thought before I use my indicators.
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By your standards I over indicate then. I will mostly indicate all the time regardless of other road users or any *right* to turn based on lane choice.
Two main reasons. If you did miss someone appearing unexpectly the insurance claim form will ask if you were indicating... the other driver will gain some advantage saying you never indicated. Secondly if in a left only lane I want to confirm to others I know that and am not about to go right.
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I also indicate as an automatic reflex action and in turn that leaves my concentration clear to deal instantly with other matters that may well develop at any time.
My powers of observation are concentrated on potential hazards instead of mundane tasks.
Pat
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When I was taught to drive I was told to only indicate if there was someone that you're indicating for, i.e. observation. If you know there's nobody about then why indicate. Indicating does not give you the right to move across or turn - it is a signal of intent. But a lot stick on the indicators and change lane/direction regardless of other road users.
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You miss the point welshy:)
Once something becomes a reflex action, much like changing gear and using a clutch is, then it leaves more of the mind clear to concentrate on more important and urgent isssues.
Apart from that, when I'm desperately trying to find a farm in a strange country lane, with an artic in the dark and having to work out whether I can get in the gateway or not, I indicate automatically, then when a speeding BMW driver comes scorching round the bend behind me he has no excuse, has he?
Pat
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But indicating should not be a reflex action is my point. You only doing after observing and knowing what is around you. The danger as I see it is some people will indicate and not know what is around them.
I can see why when driving an HGV giving more signals make sense though.
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I can see the point about only indicating if there is someone to benefit from it, and your observational skills should be telling you whether there is or not.
But this seems rooted in days of yore when it was possible there wouldn't actually be someone to benefit. I would have thought that in 2010 Britain there is about one time in a billion when there isn't someone else who is going to see your signal, so you might as well do it, and as Pat says, keep your mind clear for other things.
Just makes it harder for yourself. There's no disadvantage unless your mind moves into "I'm signalling so now I'll just go anyway", which is a different issue.
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>> unless your mind moves into "I'm signalling so now I'll just go anyway", which is a different issue.
Is see this all too often especially on motorways. A signal perhaps just before a car changes lane etc. when it probably was not safe to do. I bet this sort of attitude in driving has to be tolerated a lot by our lorry drivers.
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>> I would have thought that in 2010 Britain there is about
>> one time in a billion when there isn't someone else who is going to see
>> your signal ...........
It depends whether you're in The Great Metropolis or in rural Lincolnshire.
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Even the M5/M6 can be a ghost town at 3-4am!
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Fri 26 Feb 10 at 16:46
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I'll take your word for it ;-) At the minute I couldn't say for certain the outside of my room is there until I check. Or the back of my head for that matter. I tend not to have to travel that late/early.
But some on here would indicate lane changes just in case it seems.
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>> But indicating should not be a reflex action is my point. You only doing after
>> observing and knowing what is around you. The danger as I see it is some
>> people will indicate and not know what is around them.
I agree. That's my point as well.
Also a lot of drivers make that reflex action when it's too late to be of any value to other road users.
And what about drivers stationary at a junction waiting to proceed, with their front wheels turned to the left, and indicating to turn left. If I'm in the vicinity I know from their position on the road, the direction in which their car is pointed, and the angle of its front wheels that it's waiting to turn left. I don't need them to use their indicators.
The worst ever addition to motor vehicles was indicator lights which allow people to drive mindlessly. In the days when you gave hand signals you had to look and think first as to whether a signal was necessary or beneficial. When I took my driving test it was a condition of the test that you gave hand signals, even if the car was fitted with semaphore indicators or indicator lights.
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>> Also a lot of drivers make that reflex action when it's too late to be of any value to other road users.
I agree with this 100%. If it's to be of any use it needs to be in plenty of time. It is only an indication of intent. If it's not safe to make the direction change then you shouldn't.
Going back to my point on observations, when I indicate depends on my surroundings as it should for all. If turning left then you should not indicate too long before if there are multiple roads on the left. Likewise if there is a numpty travelling far too close then you need to indicate earlier to let them know you're going to slow down and turn.
My other pet hate is not if someone indicates but the fact they get on top of a turning and indicate and hit the breaks at the same time. The correct way is to indicate your intent to turn thus warning anyone behind you are going to slow down and turn.
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I seem to recall this discussion reaching some pretty entrenched views last time we had it in the Other Place and I don't think we ever came to an agreement then either.
If I were jbif/Dalglish then I'd be able to quote the day and time with a link consisting of nineteen hex characters from memory. But I'm not, so unless or until he turns up I can't be certain.
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Like this....
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=72525
Swear filter may have removed the HJ bit of the name.
Now put back in
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 9 Mar 10 at 01:01
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>> Swear filter may have removed the HJ bit of the name.
Has it really been set up to do that?
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Ahh but you guys are now skewing the argument to say those who indicate all the time are likely to indicate and go without regard to others... not fair to make that linkage.
I'm happy to know I do the same as a pro driver like Pat and for the same reasons (that BMW)!
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How can you find that with no forum search over there? I wanted to locate something and thought there's no way to find it.
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Yes forum search there is very poor at the moment. Hence me only locating one thread. Even jbif will struggle with his 'memory' when it's all back online.
And in jest I changed the TimeOnline entry in the swear filter to HonestJohn - partly to see how the swear filter worked.
Last edited by: welshy on Fri 26 Feb 10 at 10:33
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So what do you do... use google with some key phrases you remember in a thread?
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Nobody sees my semaphores anyway, I might as well not have them !
Ted
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No I searched the main site but the new one is very poor. I'd not bother again.
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>> I seem to recall this discussion reaching some pretty entrenched views last time we had
>> it in the Other Place and I don't think we ever came to an agreement
>> then either.
There will always be those who look and think before making the decision whether to indicate or not, and those who advocate habitually indicating without looking or thinking.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 27 Feb 10 at 09:41
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If you want to refer to the old Backroom as such please do so - not as it is banned or anything and as and when newcomers are attracted here we don't want to make the feel as is if it's a private joke....IFYKWIM
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>>There will always be those who look and think before making the decision whether to indicate or not, and those who advocate habitually indicating without looking or thinking.
How about those of us that always indicate... but after looking and thinking? That's the corner I'm in on this issue.
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I catch myself indicating on an empty road or where no other road users would be helped or warned, i rebuke myself but I suppose there are bigger things to worry about.
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>> How about those of us that always indicate... but after looking and thinking?
If you look and think, why do you still indicate on the occasions when it's apparent to you that your signal won't benefit another road user?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 27 Feb 10 at 13:42
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Because if you'd (and I don't mean just you... I mean anyone) made that first and only error in your life of missing that black clad biker he would have been given a chance of knowing your intentions in advance.
It's no big deal but I really don't want the label of a non thinker in this issue when in reality I'm thinking/anticipating over and above the usual.
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One of those advanced driver chaps (yes, I know, but they have their uses) told me there is no such thing as a good habit, they are all bad.
The reasoning is that something done habitually is done without thinking, which is bad because all driving decisions, such as indicating, should be considered.
I got a bronze, by the way, but I think anyone who manages to complete the test without hitting anything gets one of those.
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The self-cancelling of the indicators on my Focus has broken and so indicating requires more thought and effort than it did. Despite this I still indicate virtually every turn.
Most of my driving is urban. A lot of the arguments above seem to concentrate on indicating to other drivers and ignoring pedestrians and other road users.
If I am trying to cross the road on foot and waiting for a car to pass, is it reasonable for that car to turn off just before he gets to me, without indicating, because no other cars are around?
As a pedestrian am I supposed to be aware that 100m up the road there is a turn-left-only arrow?
Indicating every turn is no big effort and helps make the world a safer and more chilled place.
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If there are pedestrians about then you are meant to indicate your intention for them too not just other drivers/riders though.
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>> As a pedestrian am I supposed to be aware>>
As a pedestrian you are a road user and should be treated a such.
How many drivers don't give way to pedestrians when turning into a road, let alone indicate?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Feb 10 at 15:38
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>> As a pedestrian you are a road user .............
I deliberately used the term "road user" in my posts, and not motorist or driver.
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>> How many drivers don't give way to pedestrians when turning into a road ..........
I do. The last thing I want is a pedestrian on my bonnet.
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>> ......... black clad biker ...............
Since you mention them, I'm surprised that all bikers don't wear something bright for their own safety. I help to protect myself by always choosing a car colour which is bright and easily seen by other road users. I have no other criteria regarding the colour of my car.
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I occasionally don't indicate for the reason noted above, ie. no-one could see it and it would be of no benefit to anyone. But then I think - Ah, but if I had an accident right now, and I'm not indicating in circumstances when ordinarily I would be, I think to myself...Ah, but if something dropped from the sky...say, a helicopter, and landed on my car right now, then, when filling in the insurance claim form, it would say "Were you indicating your intention at the time of the accident?".....and I'd have to say no. But, I hear you say, if a helicopter landed on my car, would I be filling in an insurance claim form anyway?......well, it could have been a small helicopter, maybe?
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Not so far fetched, I have been in a helicopter which landed in a passing place on a winding single track road in the Scottish highlands due to poor visibility. Postman Pat would have got a surprise rounding that bend on that day!
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Feb 10 at 19:33
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In that case, O.N. I shall now indicate on each & every occasion in the knowledge that intervention from above may, indeed, be anticipated. Indeed some of the remote controlled models I've seen on YouTube are bigger than my car........have one of them land on top of you and you'd not be best pleased.
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I have been surprised, when a medivac helicopter landed along side my car. Literally just a few feet away.
It was many moons ago and certainly not in aremote location. It was at the Honda original HQ on the corner of Power Road & Chiswick High Road in West London.
Minding my own business in a traffic queue. Very impressed with the piloting.
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It wasn't a Laguna and a bus collision by any chance ?
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You can indicate automatically but be conscious that there is no-one that you have seen that will benefit. But what if you've missed someone?
Which is worse. Not indicating so you are not clear about your intentions or indicating and doing the same thing?
I have noticed this habit of only indicate when someone will benefit has turned into don't bother indicating at all. Roundabouts are bad for this. Many opportunities to pull out are missed as the car on the roundabout is turning off but there is not active indication to let you know they are going to turn off.
I'd prefer if drivers were taught to indicate all the time even if no-one would benefit as it then makes their intentions clear. Generally I'd prefer mindless indicating to mindless not indicating. Also thinking about indication takes attention. Is that attention better used elsewhere or not? I don't know.
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Indicators - rtj70
