A Cee'd 1.6 diesel (115 hp) is a possible replacement for our 2001 VW Beelte, which has the 2.0 petrol unit. Mrs Moo likes to be able to jump in a car and go and doesn't take kindly to waiting for glowplugs to do their stuff on a winters morning! She wants to turn the key and for a diesel to speak into life like a petrol. She also expects the heater to be churning out hot air in early course.
I think there are a couple of Cee'd diesel owners on here, so I wanted to ask about cold starting. Given that the engine is a modern CR unit, I would have thought that outside of winter, it wouldn't make much difference whether you wait for the glowplugs or not. Does the yellow light even come on in temperatues above, say, 5 degrees?
In bitter conditions, how long do the glowplugs stay on for before you can start the motor?
Does the heater churn out hot air quickly (probably with some form of electric heating element working in the background), or is it like a 1991 Montego diesel that my parents used to have which whilst very efficient, used to take a good 10-12 miles from a cold start before churning out some luke warm air!!
Cheers
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all moderen diesels start instantly like petrols.
car makers have come a long way since the 80's
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They do if you ignore the glowplug light, yes! But on really cold days it will take a lot less out of your battery if you wait a few seconds for it to go out!
Is she really that impatient that she can't wait a few seconds, MrMoo? Whats she like in a traffic jam?! ;-)
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My Cee'd puts its glow plug light on for a split second, (you have to be looking for it to catch it), in ambient temperatures above about freezing. I ignore it unless it is way below freezing. Serious Scottish cold!
The heater, if you get a "3" model with climate control it has electric "PTC" heaters built into the heating system. These provide rapid heat for screen clearing, demisting and people warming. These heaters are not as powerful as the main heater but certainly help. The heater warms up faster than my Focus tdci did.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 09:10
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I was only saying to a mate the other day why don't they have electric elements in cars. I have to wait for about a mile for heater to fully warm up but then I suppose it is a 1.1 litre engine with an over sized radiator.
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>> elements in cars. I have to wait for about a mile for heater to fully
>> warm up but then I suppose it is a 1.1 litre engine with an over
>> sized radiator.
A mile? Rats that's faster then my central heating!
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Thats still a good 5-10 minutes in the car shivering. Mind you I drive so much instead of walking these days that I am not used to the cold. The house is always heated on the warm side too.
Us central heating generation just don't do cold. Could be worse, my sisters boyfriend drives a ZX XUD non turbo. Takes more than five minutes in this weather to start.
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>> Us central heating generation just don't do cold.
So why do we see your generation wandering around town on Friday and Saturday nights dressed in T shirts and/or short skirts when there's snow and ice on the ground Rats?! ;-)
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No idea, it will be nothing but my Sprayway in this weather for me! I usually wear a suit jacket with a punk band t-shirt underneath, looks a bit smarter than a large coat but tonight a large coat it is.
If silly girls want to catch a cold that is up to them. They probably drink so much they don't feel it anyway, then they end up in hospital giving everybody that enjoys a drink in town a bad name.
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>> drink so much they don't feel it anyway, then they end up in hospital giving
>> everybody that enjoys a drink in town a bad name.
>>
I thought that it applied to everyone in Manchester from the reaction of your council to the problem... ;-)
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331994/Sale-cheap-alcohol-banned-councils.html
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"Takes more than five minutes in this weather to start. "
Is that 5 minutes to start the engine, or 5 minutes to warm up? If the former then it needs new glowplugs. If the latter, then that's normal!
My HDis will start pretty much off the key most of the time, but I did get 6 or 7 seconds of glowplug light last winter when it was -15 one morning....
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>> I was only saying to a mate the other day why don't they have electric
>> elements in cars. I have to wait for about a mile for heater to fully
>> warm up but then I suppose it is a 1.1 litre engine with an over
>> sized radiator.
If the engine thermostat is working properly (i.e. if the crack-open temperature is as it should be) the size of the radiator shouldn't make any difference.
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To answer Mr Moo
Any modern common rail diesel does not noticeable use the glow plugs to start, and they warm up quickly.
As long as you stay clear of a VW PDI unit which can take an age to warm up.
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You may find this forum helpful, just remember that forums attract people with problems and give a false impression of reliability. The vast majoriy of Ceed's are faultless.
www.kia-forums.com/kia-ceed-forum/
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 15:19
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The 2.0 diesel in my 2007 BMW started instantly this morning on the button. However, when I unlocked the car a lot of whirring and clicking takes place, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it's already pre-heating.
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Yaris preheats when you undo central locking. Starts at once. Warming up depends on which way I drive.
Up 1 mile hill: 1 mile
Down hill - 4 miles
Up smallish hills 3 miles...
Better than an A4 TDI...
Last edited by: madf on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 15:39
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>> Yaris preheats when you undo central locking. Starts at once. Warming up depends on which
And most pre pressurise the fuel system as well
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>> And most pre pressurise the fuel system as well
Which is a bit of a swine if you happen to misfuel it.
Couldn't agree more with your earlier comment about the VAG PD's warm up time by the way. It's measured in aeons, particularly if you happen to get stuck in traffic in the first couple of miles. I actually think you could start a PD from cold in sub zero temperatures, and have it idle for several hours before any useful heat came from the vents.
The downside of class leading thermal efficiency.
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In most diesels that I have owned the engines have cooled down when stopped in traffic in very cold weather.
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>> None of mine did.
>>
I doesn't get cold enough south of Watford, the key was "very cold". :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 16:36
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my last 3 desiels havent had a glow plug light.
i started my cittroen c3 picasso up at 4am this morning and it was -7 and i just opened the door and turn the key straight away to an instant start like any petrol.
i will check the handbook later but im very sure it doesnt have a glow plug light.
the last car i used with a glow plug light was a 1995 405 n/a xud and the light went out in -10 within 3 seconds
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>> i will check the handbook later but im very sure it doesnt have a glow
>> plug light.
It does, you just havent noticed it or it hasnt needed it yet.
Its also the one that flashes when it all goes wrong...
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I occasionally chat with Scandinavian and East European diesel owners, I will ask about starting in their winter conditions.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 16:52
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A cold diesel engine still needs to be preheated before compression ignition will work, that hasn't changed. Car diesels these days though activate the glow plugs and prime the fuel pump when you unlock the car as mentioned above. My car has a push button start so it makes its own decision as to when to actually turn the engine over. Whilst this normally takes place instantaneously, there were a couple of days last winter when the temperature was around -25C and there was a pause of around 5 seconds between pushing the button and the engine actually turning over.
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-25 eh ? Bloomin' 'eck...
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>> A cold diesel engine still needs to be preheated before compression ignition will work, that
>> hasn't changed.
It has changed. A modern CR diesel will start with no glow plugs.
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>> It has changed. A modern CR diesel will start with no glow plugs.
>>
Agreed, normally an instant start, in UK temperatures the glow plugs often stay on for a few seconds after start to reduce emissions.
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If you want a hot engine at -3 this is what you want:cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANDROVER-FREELANDER-1-DIESEL-WEBASTO-WATER-HEATER-/350410452401?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5196172db1
These are the dogs hooter and the one above can be made to fit almost anything they even do a petrol webasto.
It's just a little boiler that heats up the engines coolant and circulates through the system so when you come to start for the first time it eases starting as it's a hot engine, Less wear and tear & the best bit the cabin heater is hot and the screen clears super quick.
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It doesn't get that cold in the UK, you will be suggesting snow tyres next. :-)
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Zero. Whats the reason for "modern CR diesel will start with no glow plugs." if it is so. Can't see what the fuel pump design has to do with it.
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>> Zero. Whats the reason for "modern CR diesel will start with no glow plugs." if
>> it is so. Can't see what the fuel pump design has to do with it.
>>
>>
Common rail systems use extremely high fuel pressures for better fuel atomisation. The older indirect injection systems could not produce these pressures. Mine operates at 1,600 BAR (about 23,500 PSI).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 17:28
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Its the high fuel pressure (1800 bar) of CR diesels being able to atomise the diesel into finer droplets using piezo injectors.
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PD can give over 2000 bar, and can have piezo injectors (the 170 hp VW engine) so CR in itself is not a major factor SFAIK. I had a DI diesel of the rotary pump type, in an Audi 80 of 1993 vintage with a higher compression ratio than current diesels.
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"A modern CR diesel will start with no glow plugs. "
No it won't (well not instantly) - the glow plugs will be on - they are also now ceramic types which heat up 10 times as fast as the old metal ones - so the plugs can be on whilst cranking.
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Whats instantly? two more turns of the crank?
Yes they do start instantly without glow plugs. I have done it.
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I have had a reply from someone in Sweden, No real problems starting diesels above -30C, if possible he plugs into a mains block heater at home or work if it gets that cold. Although their winter diesel fuel should be good for -40, things become difficult at about -35. I don't think we need to worry too much, the coldest I have experienced in the UK is -25 and that only once.
www.kia-forums.com/kia-ceed-forum/56207-cabin-heater-takes-long-heat-up-2.html#post273386
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 18:45
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Weird - I was just thinking about cold start and slow warm ups today.
Why do diesels take more time to get heat through the system than petrols? Is it because they do not actually 'fire' and so run colder?
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They burn cooler, heavy strong blocks that absorb heat.
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The main factor in allowing modern diesel engines to start with little or no glow time is that they are direct injection, wheras older diesel engines were indirect injection.
In an indirect injection engine, the surface area to volume ratio was large, which meant there was a large area available for heat transfer into the engine - the heat energy raised by compression went into heating up the metalwork rather than staying in the gas.
High pressure injection helps, but, it's the more favourable geometry of a direct injection combustion chamber which is the main factor.
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"They burn cooler, heavy strong blocks that absorb heat. "
Not really, you dont get 60 mpg for no reason.... the increased thermal efficiency means less heat lost from the combustion process, so longer to heat up. Granted the engines have more mass, so more to heat up. Not sure about the combustion temp, but I doubt it's much different between petrol and diesel, and in any case, the delta between the combustion temp and the cold coolant is probably more or less the same.
Last edited by: RichardW on Sat 27 Nov 10 at 21:09
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"the increased thermal efficiency means less heat lost from the combustion process, so longer to heat up"
Where does this increased thermal efficiency come from?
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>> "the increased thermal efficiency means less heat lost from the combustion process, so longer to
>> heat up"
>>
>> Where does this increased thermal efficiency come from?
Much higher compression of the fuel/air mix, which is needed in order for diesel to ignite.
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I think to get most Diesel's to warm up quicker the water jacket on the engine is thinner.
I am not sure if this compromises things like head gaskets etc (I am thinking of the Citroen AX, BX diesels).
If I compare the Rio to the Astra (both diesel's) then the Astra takes ages to warm up but the temp seems to stay the same regardless of driving up a steep hill or on the flat.
On the Rio with the temperature control dead central between hot and cold, the heat is mild but climb a hill and it gets quite warm as the engine is working harder.
Obvious yes but the time lag between working the engine harder and more heat coming into the car is very small.
Also if the temperature control is set to summer heatwave then this can also vary in heat levels when driving up a steep hill or on the flat.
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My Legacy diesel certainly needs its glowplugs in these temperatures. It's no problem, just 3 to 4 seconds and that's when I put my seatbelt on. With regards to heat coming out of the heater being delayed, that's what heated seats are for.
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The vectra this morning at -5 the heater plugs stayed on a little longer than normal but started ok, But with the vectra a good design is the heater get the heat before the engine temp gauge shows.
So the blowers are hot and the temp gauge is still on the bottom but gets up to norm after some few miles.
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i looked in the handbook and found the symbol for the glow plug light and when i turned the key this morning it was -7 and it stayed on for less than a second so really can be classed as an instant starter like a petrol
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I have had a reply from the Czech Republic, last winter -22C no problems starting.
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...a reply from the Czech Republic, last winter -22C no problems starting...
Might be wrong, but I don't think our winter diesel has enough additives in to prevent waxing at that temperature.
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I think ours is good for about -15C, and will be the first problem we will come across as the temperature drops. Unless you have a duff battery of course. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 28 Nov 10 at 15:04
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My Ceed has a fuel filter heater, so if it will start it should run in temperatures below -15C, (in the UK). As it is usually in a garage which is integral with the house when not in use and never gets down to freezing, starting below -15C would not be a problem for me.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 28 Nov 10 at 15:18
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Just fired up the CC3, started on the button as I would expect.
Heated screen, heated rear window, blower, automatic lights, heated seats - it ought to have a decent battery.
Brushed off about six inches of snow, so it will be easier to get going tomorrow.
Thawing very gently, and it's bound to freeze later on, which will make for very slippery conditions under foot and tyre.
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Must admit that I find my heated screen in the S-Max works less quickly than I thought it would. I had one on an Orion about 18 years ago and seem to remember it defrosting the screen almost instantaneously.
However there appears to be a little bit of heat coming out of the vents within a few seconds of starting up as the front at the bottom of the screen began to melt not long after.
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KIA Cee'd - Cee'd diesel - cold start & heater warm up - nyx2k
