Motoring Discussion > Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular Miscellaneous
Thread Author: SteelSpark Replies: 42
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 08:23 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
This morning I was driving on the North Circular. It was still a little dark, but visibility was good, it was dry, and the road was fairly quiet. I was doing 40, was in the right hand lane, and passed a large articulated lorry just about here:

goo.gl/maps/BcZf

I'm not exactly sure what happened next, but I think that the lorry's front right wheel must have hit some kind of standing water. I think maybe there is a depression/pot hole in the road, that still had water left over - because otherwise the road was completely dry. Anyway, the end result was that the lorry threw up a big chunk of water that hit my windscreen, completely blinding me.

A bit nerve-wracking because, as you can see, there is a concrete wall dividing the carriageways at that point, and naturally I had the lorry to the left of me.

I'm not sure how good my response was. I definitely instinctively veered to the left to some degree, because I was very aware of the wall on the right (I hadn't quite reached in when I was blinded, so feared hitting the end straight on).

I don't think I veered too much, because once I hit the wipers, I was perhaps just slightly into the next lane - however it was enough for the lorry to honk me.

It's fortunate that it wasn't more busy, and also fortunate that I was travelling a bit more quickly that the lorry, so that I cleared it before I veered. By the same token, braking at that point would like not have been good, giving that I had encroached into the lorry's lane.

Would have liked to have just stayed dead straight and just flicked on the wipers, but doing 40 as I approached a concrete wall, only to be completely blinded, took me a bit by surprise, and instincts kicked in.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 08:31 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
Doesn't the Mondy have auto wipers?

They would have been genuinely useful in this situation.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 08:52 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> Doesn't the Mondy have auto wipers?

If it does, they didn't come on.

>> They would have been genuinely useful in this situation.

Yes, I was thinking that too. If I ever see them as an optional extra on a future car, I'll definitely spend the cash.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:03 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - -
I think we've all been caught out similarly at some time and no doubt will again.

When it happens it seems to take forever to find the switch and turn the wipers on, which is odd when it's a car you know well, maybe it doesn't take as long as it feels, when any near miss occures everything apparently goes into slow motion.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:43 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> When it happens it seems to take forever to find the switch and turn the
>> wipers on, which is odd when it's a car you know well, maybe it doesn't
>> take as long as it feels, when any near miss occures everything apparently goes into
>> slow motion.

Yeah, I put two seconds in the title, it may not even have been that long, but definitely felt like ten. I was about a third of the way into the tunnel, by the time I cleared the screen, and I was maybe only a few feet back from the streetview link's location. I found the wipers OK, but my first instinct was definitely to steer away from that wall a bit.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:07 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...If it does, they didn't come on...

The water sensor is stuck to the glass behind the rear view mirror.

The wiper stalk needs to be one click up from the off position for the auto wipers to be primed and ready.

I'd expect them to come on in the circumstances you describe, but none of these gadgets are foolproof.

Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 09:08
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:38 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> The water sensor is stuck to the glass behind the rear view mirror.
>>
>> The wiper stalk needs to be one click up from the off position for the
>> auto wipers to be primed and ready.
>>
>> I'd expect them to come on in the circumstances you describe, but none of these
>> gadgets are foolproof.

Thanks iffy. I tried it, but one click from off seems to set them to slow continuous wipe.

I'm probably doing something wrong.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:45 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...I'm probably doing something wrong...

Sounds more like the car doesn't have auto wipers.

Does it have an auto-dimming rear view mirror?

The two toys tend to be fitted together on Fords.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:51 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> Sounds more like the car doesn't have auto wipers.
>>
>> Does it have an auto-dimming rear view mirror?

Not that I am aware of, I didn't even know such a thing existed (until I just looked it up). It could have auto-dim, but I have never noticed it.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:57 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
The streetview shows a straight wide lane, If you are mometarily blinded keep going straight. This may be a lesson about driving alongside a large vehicle, if the speed limit was 40mph I would expect the HGV to be at that speed, as you should have been. If you were overtaking slowly you were effectivly driving alongside, not good practice, especially if it was a LHD foreign one.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 10:02 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
Stick to the speed limit on the NCR and you will forced off the road.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 10:10 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
>> Stick to the speed limit on the NCR and you will forced off the road.
>>
>>

Rubbish, you forget I am a Londoner, and drive there frequently.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 10:12 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
Not frequently enough then. The only time 40mph is met there is at the speed cameras, and most of them are ignored.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 10:22 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - -
If you were overtaking slowly you were effectivly driving alongside, not good practice,
>> especially if it was a LHD foreign one.
>>

That's a good point Navy, there's lots of dodgy drivers of all nationalities in RHD British regd trucks too, assuming the worst is good practice...if the driver's wearing a hi viz at the wheel keep clear..;)

I think form SS's OP that he had a few mph over the truck as he'd cleared the front of it by the time he'd found himself partly in the trucks lane.

Underpasses and tunnels can be bad for patches of standing water, cos they're under cover you tend to assume there's no water underneath, plus you can't see them in the dark.....

fog lights would have helped..;
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 10:31 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> The streetview shows a straight wide lane, If you are mometarily blinded keep going straight.
>> This may be a lesson about driving alongside a large vehicle, if the speed limit
>> was 40mph I would expect the HGV to be at that speed, as you should
>> have been. If you were overtaking slowly you were effectivly driving alongside, not good practice,
>> especially if it was a LHD foreign one.

I think that the right lane is a fair bit narrower than the left but, yes, it would certainly have been better to continue straight, and maybe I could manage that it if happened again. The problem is the instinct to be sure that I wasn't going to hit that wall, there is not much room for error.

As for driving alongside the lorry and overtaking. I think I was actually travelling a fair bit faster than it, because I got splashed just before that wall starts, but was definitely clear of it before I was a third of the way into the tunnel.

I'm not sure what you mean about the overtaking. I read your comment to mean that I should not be going faster than the speed limit, but that I should be quickly overtaking a lorry that is doing the speed limit.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 09:51 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
I found that auto wipers were just as useless as ones brain when it comes to moments like this. If there was a huge amount of water suddenly hitting the windscreen they also had a think before starting up.

There used to be a favourite place for this, cant for the life of me think where tho.

It was a three lane dual carriageway, and on one carriageway the camber sloped to the central reservation and used to flood.

The upshot was a car would throw a huge wall of water over the concrete barrier into the other carriageway and into the face of oncoming cars. The quantity of water was really quite astonishing.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 12:02 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - swiss tony
I think you need to learn to plan ahead more.

I know a chap who only only reads the road ahead to one cars length, where as I scan the road as far as I can see....
thus when things happen to him, its a surprise, where as I may have seen the cause before it affects me.

I'm not saying by looking further ahead you would have seen the pothole or whatever, but that you would have preplanned where your car would be in 20-30 metres time, thus not being so panicked by the lack of visibility.
IMHO driving is all about pre-planning, attempting to expect the unexpected..

When I was a nipper, I was on a motorbike going down the Western Ave, into London.
It had been raining. coming up to the Hoover building a newspaper blew across the road, ending up firmly stuck on my (clipped down) visor.
I had zero visibility, tried to get the paper off - no good.
I decided my only course of action was to stop (in lane 2!!!)
when I unclipped the visor, I had stopped 2 feet behind the car in front, the traffic lights had changed! (who remembers the Hoover traffic lights?)

All that happened within a second or 2, and luckily I had God riding pillion that day.
It still scares me to what could have happened that day.

Somehow I didn't panic at the time, just did what I thought was best, then went home for clean undies AFTER thinking about it.........
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 12:46 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> I'm not saying by looking further ahead you would have seen the pothole or whatever,
>> but that you would have preplanned where your car would be in 20-30 metres time,
>> thus not being so panicked by the lack of visibility.
>> IMHO driving is all about pre-planning, attempting to expect the unexpected..

Yes, I take onboard what you are saying, although I am not sure it would have made that much difference in this case.

The thing is that the road is straight, there was nothing else in front of me, and so I knew that I would be safe if I just went straight.

The thing that bothered me is, when deprived of vision, we can go off course pretty quickly (even just walking a few feet with our eyes closed).

I know that I have a tendency to not steer completely straight if I take my eyes of the road. I don't mean that I suddenly veer into another lane, just that I start to drift.

So, in this case, a fairly slight drift to the right would have been a massive problem.

It doesn't mean that I don't need to read the road ahead, of course, just that I think it is more a case of confidence that I can steer straight when I can no longer see.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 12:47
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:00 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...The thing is that the road is straight, there was nothing else in front of me, and so I knew that I would be safe if I just went straight...

Were I paying proper attention, I would not try to overtake a lorry on this stretch of road, a car or two, maybe, but not something big.

Hang back, and nip past at the other end of the tunnel where there's no central wall.

If I recall, a set of lights comes up soon after this stretch, but not matter, you can always overtake when you've got through those.


Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 13:00
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:37 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> Were I paying proper attention, I would not try to overtake a lorry on this
>> stretch of road, a car or two, maybe, but not something big.
>>
>> Hang back, and nip past at the other end of the tunnel where there's no
>> central wall.

That wouldn't have occurred to me. So, are you advising that I don't pass lorries when there is a solid barrier to my right, and perhaps the lane is not so wide?

Just trying to figure out what it is that should tell me not to pass them.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:45 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...are you advising that I don't pass lorries when there is a solid barrier to my right, and perhaps the lane is not so wide?...

Yes, it's not a circumstance you will come across often, so it doesn't mean you will be forever stuck behind lorries.

On an ordinary motorway or dual carriageway, I prefer to wait until there's plenty of space ahead in my overtaking lane to get past.

This means I can accelerate gently past the lorry, keeping the time I spend beside it to a minimum.


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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:50 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
My "drive to survive" instructor said

Drive and match your speed so you always have a clear space to your left or right on multiple lane roads. Always have an escape route.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:49 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
>> Just trying to figure out what it is that should tell me not to pass
>> them.
>>

Things like, where do you go if he changes lane?

What is your (and his) escape route if it goes pear shaped?

Is there an "on" slip road or merge coming up, someone may force their way in, and cause the truck to change lane.

Is the truck on foreign plates, be aware of his blind spots.

Never get alongside a truck or bus on a roundabout.

Not an exhaustive list but remember you will always come off second best in a bump with a big vehicle
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 13:52
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:16 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - swiss tony
>> The thing is that the road is straight, there was nothing else in front of
>> me, and so I knew that I would be safe if I just went straight.
>>
>> The thing that bothered me is, when deprived of vision, we can go off course
>> pretty quickly (even just walking a few feet with our eyes closed).
>>
>> I know that I have a tendency to not steer completely straight if I take
>> my eyes of the road. I don't mean that I suddenly veer into another lane,
>> just that I start to drift.
>>
>> So, in this case, a fairly slight drift to the right would have been a
>> massive problem.
>>
That's what planning ahead can help with. knowing the road ahead is clear(ish) helps give you confidence.
What you need to learn now, is to keep straight.
try driving on quiet roads handsfree, or a very light grip on the wheel.
take note of how the car 'drifts' with the camber of differing roads, and with that will come the confidence you need!
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 12:52 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
>> I think you need to learn to plan ahead more.
>>
Wise words, a ancient driving instructor, (I was young then), told me "Don't drive up to a problem, slow down and it will probably have gone by the time you get there". Planning ahead is the key to safe driving IMHO.

Don't forget your car has side windows.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 12:54
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 12:59 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> Don't forget your car has side windows.

Hmmm, good point, I didn't instinctively use them, but now you mention it, maybe I will do next time.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:02 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - R.P.
The cars I've driven, VAG and BMW, with auto-wipers would have been a hesitation before firing up - the manual reflex is quicker, hate to think what would have happened on the bike, chances are that road positioning would have avoided it.... i.e. not been there in the first place !
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:31 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Armel Coussine
SS's windscreen got splashed as he was passing a lorry on a dual carriageway segment of the North Circular. Blinded for a moment, he gave a little wriggle or swerve and the lorry gave a warning toot.

So far there have only been 22 replies. This is the twenty-third.

Stand by for a special edition of Panorama and a tabloid 3-part series on Channel Four. Books to follow.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:38 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - R.P.
Who you getting at there AC ? (I know you're getting at the media but that's ok !)
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:40 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> SS's windscreen got splashed as he was passing a lorry on a dual carriageway segment
>> of the North Circular. Blinded for a moment, he gave a little wriggle or swerve
>> and the lorry gave a warning toot.
>>
>> So far there have only been 22 replies. This is the twenty-third.
>>
>> Stand by for a special edition of Panorama and a tabloid 3-part series on Channel
>> Four. Books to follow.

Aha, our forum policeman is on patrol.

AC - Why don't you pop down your local, and make sure that all the conversation there is sufficiently interesting to meet your standards? Or are you just trying to save Car4Play's bandwidth?

I'm finding the input here helpful, sorry if we are being too noisy.
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      2  
 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:41 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - R.P.
He forgets he was a young driver sometimes !
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:46 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
He is so old he cant remember being a young driver.

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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:48 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Clk Sec
He didn't use his favourite word, either.
:)
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 14:08 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Armel Coussine
>> He is so old he cant remember being a young driver.

I'm still a young driver actually Zeddo. Perhaps it's a second youth though.

SS: please don't be offended by my admittedly dyspeptic post. I wasn't really getting at you at all. Couldn't help wondering what it was everyone could think of to say in their replies though, since it seemed to me there was nothing to say. What happened to you will happen again and again, in different ways and forms of course, throughout your driving life. People call these 'moments' or something like that. They are quite simply unavoidable if you drive in places where there are traffic and weather. If you are, or manage to become, a competent driver they will be reduced to a minimum. One of them can still get you though. Safety cannot be guaranteed on the roads.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:48 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...He forgets he was a young driver sometimes !...

I think he just plain forgets.

Were I the OP, I'd be a bit miffed with AC's comments.

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 Sun 21 Nov 10 14:11 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> ...He forgets he was a young driver sometimes !...
>>
>> I think he just plain forgets.
>>
>> Were I the OP, I'd be a bit miffed with AC's comments.

Got used to it now. If I had the inclination, I am sure I could find at least half a dozen threads that I have started, where there has been substantial and helpful (for me) discussion, and AC has come along and started moaning and belittling the fact that people were taking time to discuss.

One of the joys of the internet I guess.
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:47 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Pat
SS, it's always a good plan to have an escape route in your mind when you're driving.
Plan any manouvre around that and you will see that being between a lorry and a wall is not a good place to be.
Overtake by all means but do it quickly and where there is room for error, by yourself or the lorry.

If you look upon your escape route as your space, then as soon as it gets filled you will automatically find another one or adjust your driving to make one.

Pat
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      1  
 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:51 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - R.P.
Good advice - when I was a young whippersnapper on a bike, i was taught to get out of the way of trucks pronto - i.e. overtake them at the quickest possible speed - especially livestock wagons...
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 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:55 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Zero
To be honest, the hair on the back of your neck is your best friend.

Sandwiched between a lorry and a concrete barrier just dont feel safe. So just dont go there or keep the time there to an absolute minimum.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 Nov 10 at 13:55
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      1  
 Sun 21 Nov 10 13:57 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
Ok I grudgingly agree Z. :-)
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 Wed 24 Nov 10 11:26 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - SteelSpark
>> SS, it's always a good plan to have an escape route in your mind when
>> you're driving.
>> Plan any manouvre around that and you will see that being between a lorry and
>> a wall is not a good place to be.
>> Overtake by all means but do it quickly and where there is room for error,
>> by yourself or the lorry.
>>
>> If you look upon your escape route as your space, then as soon as it
>> gets filled you will automatically find another one or adjust your driving to make one.
>>
>> Pat

Thanks Pat, and thanks for all the other advice on this thread.

Just to show that I do pay attention and try to take it onboard, I was about to overtake a coach on Finchley Road last night, when I noticed that there were metal railings on the right. Not quite a wall, but you guys popped into my head and I hung back until I had passed the railings.

It would have been a better story if the coach had suddenly swerved into the right lane and my holding back had saved me from being crushed - that didn't happen but, nonetheless, I have learned something.

Thanks again.
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      1  
 Wed 24 Nov 10 12:02 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Iffy
...Thanks Pat, and thanks for all the other advice on this thread....

SS,

One point I would make is all our worthy advice is much easier to follow on roads which are relatively free of traffic.

When driving in London, there is more emphasis on making progress, and I wouldn't criticise anyone who did that responsibly.

So there will probably be times in London when it will feel right to press on past something, when you might have hung back elsewhere in the country.



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 Wed 24 Nov 10 12:17 
 Nasty couple of seconds on the North Circular - Old Navy
That sounds like "Me first" uptight south eastern driving to me. :-)
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