Our new 120i has been at the selling dealer for the last two weeks having had its gearbox removed to change the flywheel. Upon viewing the car I noticed a slight ticking at idle that I took to be an engine characteristic, perhaps injectors, VANOS etc. However immediately after collecting it we noticed a rattle on idle that was more apparent from under the car. Our local BMW specialist confirmed that it warranted further exploration hence I took it back to the selling dealer (a indy specialising in “prestige” cars though part of a group of main dealers), they diagnosed a flywheel fault (DMF) however it took over a week for the necessary parts to come in from BMW. Before it is returned to us it needs to go to the BMW dealer to be plugged in so an intermittent electronic steering lock fault can be diagnosed prior to making a repair. Therefore it will be later this week at the very earliest before we see it again.
We had it only six days before highlighting the rattle and took it back to the dealer ten days later (due to the availability of a courtesy car) having covered less that 300 miles of which 80 were from and to the dealer.
Not very happy!
One concern is that by the time we get it back it will be nearly halfway through its three month warranty.
What would be your thoughts and expectations?
Thanks.
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You bought a car, it had a problem, I would expect them to fix it fully under warranty.
They are.
I would ask them to extend the warranty by the amount of time off the road, they don't have to and might not.
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...I took it back to the selling dealer (a indy specialising in “prestige” cars though part of a group of main dealers)...
You've done well to get the work done under warranty.
I know others will say they had to do it, but heels can be dug in when large sums of money are at stake.
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The test as I understand it is that if a fault develops within n months of purchase, the law considers it to have been there at the time of purchase. Can't remember the value of n but Cheddar's case seems to be well within it, so it's for the seller to fix, which is what's happening.
A DMF failure wouldn't usually be a sudden event, so it's a bit disappointing that the dealer missed it before delivery, but once it's replaced (are they doing the clutch at the same time?) I'd imagine it ought to be perfectly OK.
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>> A DMF failure wouldn't usually be a sudden event, so it's a bit disappointing that
>> the dealer missed it before delivery, but once it's replaced (are they doing the clutch
>> at the same time?) I'd imagine it ought to be perfectly OK.
Unless of course its a weakness of the model. It may well come back
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Some might call you a Jove's comforter. :-)
John
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>> Some might call you a Jove's comforter. :-)
Others would call him Job's comforter ;-)
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>> so it's a bit disappointing that the dealer missed it before delivery >>
Agreed.
>> but once it's replaced (are they doing the clutch at the same time?) I'd imagine it ought to be perfectly OK. >>
I asked the clutch to be checked and they have said in writing that it is OK.
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>> The test as I understand it is that if a fault develops within n months
>> of purchase, the law considers it to have been there at the time of purchase.
>>
Any ideas what the value of n is guys?
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A bit of googling (add site:which.co.uk to your search) suggests six, during which time the onus is on the retailer to prove the goods were not faulty at the time of sale.
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>> You've done well to get the work done under warranty.
>>
Really, why when the issue was highlighted only six days after buying it?
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They could have denied there was an issue.
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...They could have denied there was an issue...
Yes, that was all I meant.
The larger the claim, the more reluctance to meet it, whatever the rights and wrongs.
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My thoughts would be one of initial disappointment and then satisfaction that the supplying dealer and BMW between them are going to fix the problem for you. Most 3 month warranties I've seen have been worth *** all with low claim limits. Yours seems good. I guess you'll get some sort of "new" warranty on the parts and labour associated with this the DMF and the steering lock reset. I'd expect both to be permanent fixes and if not then goodwill to prevail on any subsequent related issues. I might check out leading 3rd party warranties to pick up from when your current one expires or if the supplying dealer can extend it at competitive rates for some extra peace of mind.
Had it been a VW my thoughts would be very different. I've known several BMW owners who have had to make claims on different vehicles some in warranty some out of warranty and BMW's treatment of them all has been first class.
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>> I guess you'll get some sort of "new" warranty on the parts and labour associated
>> with this the DMF and the steering lock reset.
No you wont. The warranty is for a period of time for the whole car. You are not paying for the work so you get no warranty on the work or parts carried out.
Its like paying for a laptop, and the internals blow up beyond repair, and they give you a new laptop after 11 months. Your warranty is still only one month left on the new one.
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BMW, swines though they are for other things, are pretty decent about the replacement parts fitted. If it's a genuine BMW part being fitted, you'll have a 2 year warranty on the flywheel against workmanship or manufacturing defects -- irrespective of the car only coming with a 3 month after sales warranty, and even though it's being fitted by someone other than a BMW main dealer service dept. That last bit means you'll still be het for labour if it needs to come out though!
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Only if YOU the punter have paid for it.
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Thanks for the replies guys, I will see if we can get the warranty extended I think.
Regards.
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Personally I wouldn't get an extended warranty. I'd go with a third party warranty company as it will inevitably cheaper (the dealer not receiving a commission of 50% or more of what you pay). Warranty direct is recommended by HJ.
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>> Personally I wouldn't get an extended warranty. I'd go with a third party warranty company
He meant a "free extension", I think.
Does the SOGA not give you free 6 months consumer protection anyway?
Last edited by: John H on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 10:54
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>> Does the SOGA not give you free 6 months consumer protection anyway?
>>
Possibly - but it's not at all as clear cut as people would have you believe.
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No idea of the age/value of your BMW but these *modern* faults are why I've changed my thoughts on the value of a good main dealer warranty. For 30yrs+ by and large I've avoided main dealers and their higher priced cars always seeking a bargain and taking the potential faults as my own risk.
Now the main dealer is of greater importance in resolving modern car issues for the first time in ages 11mths ago we decided to buy our £6k used C3 from a Citroen dealer. At 6mths it needed an aircon re-gas which was carried out without charge plus a free loan car. Two days ago 11mths into its 12mth warranty an elusive false warning of bulb failure was resolved with the replacement of a high resistance light cluster after the vehicle software was checked and found to be OK. Part had to be ordered so free loan car for two days.
Had it suffered a major fault requiring something like an ECU or turbo the warranty becomes even more important.
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>> Correct.
>>
I see that is a reply to Zero's post "Its like paying for a laptop, and the internals blow up beyond repair, and they give you a new laptop after 11 months. Your warranty is still only one month left on the new one. "
Note that many companies including include a term such as "Replacement parts are warranted to be free from defects in material or workmanship for ninety (90) days or, for the remainder of the Limited Warranty Period of the HP Hardware Product they are replacing or in which they are installed, whichever is longer."
(the quote above is from HP, who sell laptops, but similar terms can be found in t&c for other non-computer equipment.)
And remember "Warranties are basically a commitment to repair or replace defective parts within a specified time frame – usually 12 months for small electrical items. When this time is up, consumers are commonly told by shops that their responsibility is at an end and there is nothing further they can do. This is often not the case. The important point about warranties is that they should never seek to replace or take precedence over your statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act, and even after your warranty has run out, you will still be protected by these rights which can run for up to 6 years after purchase."
Last edited by: John H on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 20:48
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Faulty kettle replaced by Comet after 9 months. New kettle comes with 12 months warranty.
Fact.
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>>New kettle comes with 12 months warranty.
Fact.
I've had faulty goods exchanged and been given a new receipt and a full 12 months warranty. I've also had goods exchanged with no more than a scribbled note on the original receipt, and only the balance of the warranty remaining.
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Hello All,
Got the car back today after nearly three weeks only to notice that the rattle that lead to the DMF being replaced is still apparent, the guy who delivered the car acknowledged it and the speculation is that the cause was something other than the flywheel in the first place. We now have the car for a few days before it goes into a BMW dealer for further attention.
To be fair the selling dealer has taken a 'no-quibble we will sort it' approach all along though it is now five weeks since we picked the car up in which time we have driven less that 300 miles, of which 80 were from and to the dealer, and it has been with the garage for nearly three weeks of that time.
Any thoughts?
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Really sorry to hear about all this Cheddar. It must have taken the edge off your pleasure in the new addition to the family fleet?
At one level, the dealer is being reasonable but that can't be much help with the disappointment. It was hardly a banger purchase and should have been checked thoroughly prior to being released to you. To have it returned to you with the same symptoms extant is getting perilously close to being rude. Reminds me of a certain Renault episode in my life but let's not go there for now !
If it was my car I think I might be at the point of wanting to escalate the thing a bit now. Possibly asking for a refund and return or a swop to another car or something substantial anyway.
I suspect the reality is that you are never going to be truly happy with this car now. It has let you down at the wrong point in your relationship with it.
Pity.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 14:43
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You really would have expected better of a BMW dealer wouldn't you.
I wonder why we think that, is it because of knowledge of the service depts or the integrity of the product in the first place.
Almost unbelievable that the chap should have completed delivery once he realised there was still an issue, is the Dealer Principal involved enough yet?
edit..hang on it's not a BMW approved car is it...doh, sorry.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 15:03
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>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
Plenty. What are your thoughts?
;-) Mine are: mug, gullible, pacifist, easily led, non-confrontational. That is describing the salesman who got done by the punter who sold the car. Now the garage is hoping you will follow suit.
As humph says, escalate. Get free advice from the professionals at consumer-direct and/or trading standards, or pay an amateur solicitor.
Last edited by: John H on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 14:56
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>>edit..hang on it's not a BMW approved car is it...doh, sorry.>>
No, it is from an indy affiliated to a number of main dealerships though none of them BMW and ....
>> That is describing the salesman who got done by the punter who sold the car. >>
.... was taken in part-ex at one of these dealerships.
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>> >> That is describing the salesman who got done by the punter who sold the
>> car. >>
>>
>> .... was taken in part-ex at one of these dealerships.
>>
Ah, right, stupid of me, very fine distinction that, in your book that's not a sale then. The honest punter just went in to trade in a perfectly good car, not to get rid of a duff one.
Good luck. You will need it.
p.s. re. BMW solid reliability, yes most are built as the proverbial as Skoda says. But the ones which get gremlins can be a real pain in the whotsit when visiting the brick house mentioned by Skoda. A friend has a BMW which has had thousands (nearly three) spent so far trying to cure an intermittent ignition fault without success.
Last edited by: John H on Sat 20 Nov 10 at 17:22
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>> A friend has a BMW which has had thousands (nearly three) spent so far trying to cure an intermittent ignition fault without success.
Oi you, doom & gloom merchant. I'll hear none of it. BMWs never go wrong :-) Cheddar don't listen to him, he must be a merc driver! :-P
My grandpa tells a story of an old boy with a roller who took it to France. It broke down so he called Rolls Royce. They arranged for the car to be collected in a curtain sided van, they put him up in a 5 star hotel, drove the car to the hotel the next day and handed the keys over, not just washed but valeted, sparkling.
The old boy finishes his holiday, gets back home and calls up Rolls Royce: (paraphrased...) "I was on holiday, my car broke down, my car was repaired but i never received the bill"
"I believe you're mistaken sir, Rolls Royce cars don't break down, but i trust you enjoyed your holiday"
:-)
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>> Any thoughts?
Yeah, I told you not to buy the 1 series.
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Righto Cheddar, presumably you want to keep the car?
If so and it's in the dealers interests to do so too, i'd be asking for 6 months minimum proper warranty on the car to run from the day the present problem is sorted.
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Thanks GB, I had already asked for an extented warranty to no avail though I got a full tank of fuel.
However that was before the latest development, I am really not sure what our preferred option is though I am not too excited about the car currently.
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>>
>> Yeah, I told you not to buy the 1 series.
>>
Really, I don't recall though I am sure if I go back to the dealer and say Zero told me not to buy a 1 Series he will give me double my money back, thanks grrrreat help there ...
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I wouldn't rock the boat too much. The car's been sold, with a fault - that shouldn't happen, but the sales crowd seem to be playing ball at least to an average standard, no quibbling & a free tank of fuel says maybe even slightly above average.
The car itself will in all likely hood be otherwise fine. It's a BMW, they're built like a proverbial WC. One fault needs diagnosing and sorting, it will be sorted, it's a petrol so it can definitely be diagnosed (and fixed) whatever's wrong.
Only thing i can think of meantime is the garage might be able to lend a trade in or a run around before it goes to auction, that might help.
It'll all be worth it once it's finally delivered. Attractive, solid, reliable even - they are reliable present fault excepted.
This one's for your wife if i remember right? If you can ever steal the keys and book a couple of hours at your local race track for some tuition, it'll set you on fire and you'll appreciate every inch of it.
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>> If you can ever steal the
>> keys and book a couple of hours at your local race track for some tuition,
>> it'll set you on fire and you'll appreciate every inch of it.
>>
Thanks, of course I will drive it, I have probably done more the the 300 miles that she has so far, however while it is quite sprightly and fun on the twisties it is not as exhilarating as my Focus ST.
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OK, how do you turn this slightly negative situation into a satisactory and positive one? My suggestion is that you have a discussion with the dealership you bought the car from. a non-confrontational one preferably, but one which leaves them in no doubt as to your disappointment. Look for a solution which pleases you but which will be acceptable to them. One such could be the dealership allowing you to trade your car back in to them at the price you paid. You might choose to "top up" your budget by a grand or two. Possible result is you get a better car. Still supplied by them of course. If they are smart, they would recognise that you would then see them as more than reasonable and might even have got you as a customer for life as opposed to one who would never deal with them again.
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Thanks Humph, on one hand we like this actual car, on the otherhand I am kind of thinking along those lines. Depends what else they have in stock.
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Being serious, there are a few things that strike me.
1/ What is the fault? OK its a noise. What type of noise, loud? serious sounding? annoying? under certain situations only?
Ever considered there may not be anything seriously wrong with it?
Anyway, YOU take the car to the BMW delaer and YOU ask the head mechanic what he thinks it could be.
2/ Do you want the car or not? If they dont fix it next time reject it. or as humph says, negotiate into a different car.
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>> Being serious, >>
That makes a change ;-)
>> 1/ What is the fault? OK its a noise. What type of noise, loud? serious sounding?annoying? under certain situations only? >>
A rattle at idle, clearly not normal.
>> YOU take the car to the BMW delaer and YOU ask the head mechanic what he thinks it could be. >>
Our local BMW specialist said it is not right.
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He cant be that specialist or he would know what it is.
Take it to the dealer. You are going to need their opinion if you want to reject it.
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It has a possibly benign rattle at idle, and a nice new DMF.
I'd think carefully before rejecting it, the replacement might have a near-knackered DMF.
Has anyone heard a Ducati motorbike at idle?
Supposed to be an Italian thoroughbred, yet it rattles like a bag of spanners.
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yes all Ducatis do it, so thats fine.
All BMW 1's dont do it so its not fine.
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>> It has a possibly benign rattle at idle, and a nice new DMF.
>>
>> I'd think carefully before rejecting it, the replacement might have a near-knackered DMF.
Depends what is causing the rattle.
>>
>> Has anyone heard a Ducati motorbike at idle?
>>
>> Supposed to be an Italian thoroughbred, yet it rattles like a bag of spanners.
>>
Some, not all, Ducatis have a dry multiplate clutch, they are supposed to rattle.
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I'm not suggesting you should put up with a car which has a non-standard rattle.
But if the rattle is cured, you would then have a correct car with a new DMF, which might be a better bet than rejecting it and starting from scratch with another car.
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Well it has gone off to a BMW dealer and we now have a Fiesta Zetec S diesel courtesy, muuuuuch nicer than the Fabia we had before.
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Just curious, but have you been on any BMW forums to ask what they think it is?
Ive always found fanatical owners have fanantical knowledge aswell. Sometimes dealers need leading by the nose.
When I had oil mixing with water on my old Rover diesel, it was classic HGF symptoms. Only the HG was fine. Rover guys diagnosed, correctly, a leaking water pump I think it was, or maybe oil, it was a few years back now. Either way, my mech was shocked and had it on the bench trying to see what the issue was, but it solved it even if it couldnt be explained.
Hope ya have some luck.
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Update:
The selling dealer says he has good news, he says that they have taken it to a BMW dealer who says that it is normal however they haven't even said what is causing the noise if not the flywheel.
I say that good news would be if the BMW dealer had found the cause of the rattle and cured it.
We are not happy with the car making this noise, our local well respected BMW specialist advises that it is not normal and should be attended to and the selling dealer originally agreed hence they took it apart and replaced the flywheel.
I need to think about the next steps ...
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Very hard to accept a quality car that rattles. Even harder to accept that they thought the rattle bad enought to go to the expense of the new DMF but now say good news i'ts normal!
If this is the used outlet of a larger group I'd ask them to resolve the problem in line with their status/reputation as a big dealership. Along the lines Humph mentioned above. Tell them you'll never be happy with a rattling BMW and you're sure they wouldn't want you to come out of this with a negative view of the whole company.
A full refund is so unlikely but like Humph I'd be going for money back against another of their *selected used cars*.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 26 Nov 10 at 07:55
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I somtimes wonder if people on here can read.
>> Anyway, YOU take the car to the BMW delaer and YOU ask the head mechanic what he thinks it could be.
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As stated I have ...
>> taken the car to a BMW specialist and asked the head mechanic what he thinks it could be, he says that it is not normal and should be attended to >>
... a BMW dealer would charge a significant sum for such a diagnosis, why should we have to pay?
Last edited by: Cheddar on Fri 26 Nov 10 at 13:20
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What part of BMW are you having trouble understanding?
Your BMW "specialist" hasnt got a clue has he? frankly he sounds like crap.
The guy who sold it to you is now claiming there is nothing wrong with it
As we said he would by the way.
You want to get your money back reject the car? you want it fixed? you want ANY of these things, you take it to
B
M
W
Oh edit - You dont pay. Now he has said there is nothing wrong with it, you tell him you are taking it to BMW and he will pay.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 26 Nov 10 at 13:36
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My wife's Ford Ka had a slight but annoying rattle when it was idling. I thought it was the clutch but when I investigated I found the noise to be coming from the air con compressor. Dealer told me they always rattle, sold the car 5 years later, the rattle hadn't got any worse.
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...a BMW dealer would charge a significant sum for such a diagnosis, why should we have to pay?...
Is that definitely so?
I appreciate most main dealers would charge you for opening the service reception door if they could, but we are not talking about computer diagnostics here.
Surely someone from a BMW dealer would come out and have a listen and give you an informal kerbside diagnosis without charge?
You might be lucky and get a genuine mechanic.
Last edited by: Iffy on Fri 26 Nov 10 at 13:50
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I once took a then 3 months old Mondeo 1.8TD to a Ford dealer to complain that I suspected the turbo had packed in. It wouldn't go over 55 mph.
Service manager came out on a test drive with me and having pulled the floor mat back a bit from under the pedals asked me if that felt any better?
Tum ti tum.....
:-(
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But was it a permanent fix or did you have to keep going back? It should be service item.
:-)
John
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It's possible still these days to get a helpful second opinion. Find a BMW dealer, phone and ask to speak to head of servicing/workshop foreman etc, explain problem. He/she will probably say bring it round and we'll have a listen. They will probably have the same motor in one of their cars hanging around, so should be able to compare. Take a 3ft length of plastic pipe with you to use as a stethoscope, place one end on the flywheel housing and listen to t'other! You'll be suprised what difference it makes.Good luck
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>> probably say bring it round and we'll have a listen. They will probably have the
>> same motor in one of their cars hanging around, so should be able to compare.
>>
Perfect solution. Find another BMW 1 Series E81/E87 and have a listen for the same rattle.
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Update:
Got the car back again today, the rattle is still their though the selling dealer says that it is a different noise and is normal, they have taken the car to a BMW dealer who, they say, says it is normal, they arranged for me to speak to the BMW dealer though they were non commital with me.
>> Find another BMW 1 Series E81/E87 and have a listen for the same rattle.>>
Tried that, found a 118i (same engine, gearbox, clutch) of the same age and higher mileage - no rattle.
So:
The car rattled.
The indy specialist advised that it should be attended to.
The selling dealer agreed and replaced the DMF.
They delivered it back and it still rattled.
They took it away again and advised that they would take it to a BMW dealer to be fixed.
They now say that the original noise was fixed.
They say that this is now a different noise though is normal.
They say money back is not appropriate because there is no fault.
The car still rattles.
Any thoughts?
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Yep.... as mentioned before arange the best trade possible for another car with the selling garage just to get shot and end the saga.
Option 2 fight for a result through the legal system and perhaps get nowhere and gain massive frustration doing so.
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>> The car still rattles.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
Get the dealer to agree to repair this fault that isn't should it develop into something more serious in the future...in writing, then enjoy your car and it's new clutch and DMF.
I once had a similar type of rattle from the exhaust of my 827 Rover when taking up drive, pretty sure it was the cat breaking up, either way it didn't matter as being a 91 car it didn't need the cat for MOT, never got any worse so never got it fixed...better car than many would think.
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>> I once had a similar type of rattle from the exhaust of my 827 Rover
>> when taking up drive, pretty sure it was the cat breaking up, either way it
>> didn't matter as being a 91 car it didn't need the cat for MOT, never
>> got any worse so never got it fixed...better car than many would think.
Would this have been the one with the Honda engine GB?
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>> Would this have been the one with the Honda engine GB?
>>
It was C and a superb engine too, the only real design fault with the car was the brakes were not big enough to cope with the performance and the driver would regularly warp the front discs..;
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>> the only real design fault with the
>> car was the brakes were not big enough to cope with the performance and the
>> driver would regularly warp the front discs..;
Ah, the same thing happened with my Rover SD1V8 :-)
Last edited by: corax on Sat 4 Dec 10 at 12:26
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>> Ah, the same thing happened with my Rover SD1V8 :-)
>>
You'd think the old bill would do something about it wouldn't you, dodgy geezers roaming the country with pocketfulls of car keys borrowing steady driver's cars and driving them hard enough to warp the discs, i'm writing to the Times.
I wonder if the Legend suffered similarly, was the braking system Honda or did wealthier Honda owners own secure garages where our mysterious mate couldn't get to their cars.
:-)
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>>
>> Update:
>> Any thoughts?
>>
Yes, I repeat
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3612&m=75751&v=e
Forum members aren't going to solve your rattle.
Contact consumer direct.
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Thanks John, I am now in contact with Consumer Direct so will keep it offline for now.
Regards.
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Update:
The selling dealer arranged for me to take the car to a BMW dealer for a diagnostic appointment. They had a similar car on the forecourt which they warmed up and which exhibited a characteristically similar noise, not as loud as ours though. This reassured to some extent. The tech's advice was that it is Vanos related (so the DMF was changed for no reason) and if it is indicative of a problem then it will get worse. So we are seeing how it goes.
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Eh? Can I paraphrase that hilarious comment by the dealer: "if the noise gets worse then there's a problem getting worse". No sheet Sherlock! How bloomin' helpful!
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So you took it to a BMW dealer, and now the worry has been eased.
I cant count the number of times I told you to take it a BMW dealer. I hate to say I told you so, but I did. A lot, forcefully.
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>> I cant count the number of times I told you
>>
But I didnt want to pay and I didnt have to pay.
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BMW 1 Series E81/E87 - DMF problem and implications thereof - Zero
