x.com/benrileysmith/status/1986175980788982107
Seems there's a plan to tax EVs per mile. Although the article is a bit vague on how it'll work.
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The govt needs to replace the income it loses when people move from fossil to EV. Thats a fact of life.
For a while it may do to tax fossil even more to encourage the green move to EV. But at some point the onus is going to fall on EVs to continue the same tax income that the govt gets from fossil.
Problem is they can’t tax it through traditional methods if people are charging their EVs through domestic electricity. So cost per mile seems the only other way but that provides many more challenges.
I wonder if just now is the sweet spot for moving to EVs. Prices seem to be in free fall for many models with huge discounts. And you get the cheap running costs if you charge at home.
Or maybe prices will fall even further once tax of some sort is applied?
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If it really is 3p per mile , and you self declare, I do about 12k per year, that's £360 I have to declare and pay. Not completely trivial on top of the existing £185 VED.
I sold my Superb this year and thought I was done with £600 a year tax for the car (it had the "luxury" rate).
So that didn't last long.
Do we think a self declared tax is going to work?
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Per mile charging is patently non workable without significant and expensive investment in a widespread comprehensive ANPR system, which aint happening.
The eqipment to clock your car would be on ebay in a heartbeat.
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My impression based on broadcast reports is that although nominally mileage related it will be a flat rate in the order of £250/pa.
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>Per mile charging is patently non workable without significant and expensive investment in a
>widespread comprehensive ANPR system...
Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor said that a government review has shown that 98% of the British public want electric vehicle owners to pay their fair share and that car taxes weren't mentioned in their manifesto so it doesn't count as lying.
In conjunction with the Science and Technology minister, Liz Kendall, they formed a panel of experts who concluded that Britain would lead the world in pay-per-mile technology by fitting every vehicle in the UK with slot-meters.
Payment tokens will be available at any Post Office and will be linked to your Digital ID to stop irregular migration.
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It is inevitable EVs will be charged in some way to replace lost fuel duties and VAT.
Current fuel duty is 53p/L + VAT included at 135p/L is 23p = a total of 76p "tax" per litre.
At 10 miles per litre (45mpg) the cost per mile is 7.6p. 3p per mile seems like a good deal and likely to increase over coming years.
Implementing new charges for EVs would make ICE transition difficult -bonkers on one hand to have a £3750 subsidy for qualifying EVs only to penalise running costs with pay per mile.
But it could be a perverse financial benefit - would fines levied on the sale of ICEs be greater than the revenue from 3p a mile on EVs????
It is unclear how the mileage will be calculated. Relying on driver honesty is naive. Monitoring mileage between MOTs could easily be corrupted. What happens when a car is sold mid year. Will new cars sold be fitted with tracking systems. What about cars already on the road etc etc.
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>> It is inevitable EVs will be charged in some way to replace lost fuel duties
>> and VAT.
Which I think we forecast on here about 6 years ago
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At 90p/kWh and 4 miles/kWh, fast charger users are paying about 4p/mile tax.
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>>
>> Current fuel duty is 53p/L + VAT included at 135p/L is 23p = a total
>> of 76p "tax" per litre.
It you included VAT in the calculation then to compare you'd have to surely include the VAT on elasticity - different rates at home & away
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>> vehicle in the UK with slot-meters.
>>
>> Payment tokens will be available at any Post Office and will be linked to your
>> Digital ID to stop irregular migration.
Whny dont we fit everyone with an imbeded RFID tag, then we can charge them for traveling by any means. It also has the benefit of barring anyone under age from pubs by electronic gates, bill them for public transport, the public disorder and crime solving benefits are enourmous. We could fit an RF id scanner to every lamp post.
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>Whny dont we fit everyone with an imbeded RFID tag...
Don't be silly - tax evaders would just wrap themselves in Alcan foil.
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>> >Whny dont we fit everyone with an imbeded RFID tag...
>>
>> Don't be silly - tax evaders would just wrap themselves in Alcan foil.
Doh! Yes, silly me, still think I have earned my place in the cabinet tho
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>..still think I have earned my place in the cabinet tho.
Deputy PM material I reckon.
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>>
>> Why don't we fit everyone with an imbedded RFID tag.......
>>
I already got mine with my Covid jab, courtesy of that nice Mr Gates. ;-)
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“at any Post Office “
And what are these “Post Offices”. Nothing round here like that.
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>And what are these “Post Offices”. Nothing round here like that.
They're on the 'levelling-up' list for deprived areas.
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I think EV's will just be the start of it. They will do it to all cars whatever fuels them eventually.
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Economically retarded just applied to EVs.
What if you drive a PHEV?
Personally I'd pitch VED at, say, £1k/yr for every car whatever the age, annual mileage or fuel type.
A car sitting doing nothing is a waste of resources.
Still "need" 3 cars in your household?
Maybe you'll find out that you can get by just fine with 1 or 2.
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thread drift…currently in Spain walking with a few groups. Yesterday chatting with an English friend who lives a lot of the time in Serbia.. He’s married to a Serbian lady. own houses in Dpsin, Serbia and uk. Cheap places, two bedrooms each, nothing flash.
He owns an old diesel car, pays £20 annual UK VED, takes it back to the UK for its annual MOT and service, and pays no road tax in either Spain or Serbia. its insured in the UK…Saga or suchlike, and tells me it’s legit.
How can you get away with £20 annual VED on an old diesel ?
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>> How can you get away with £20 annual VED on an old diesel ?
Tax bands for cars registered after March 2001 and before April 2017
VED band CO2 emissions Annual rate
A Up to 100g/km £20
B 101-110g/km £20.
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I need to buy an older car..paying about £17 pcm for my 2019 Vitara.
Friends who live in Guernsey have just sold their immaculate 20yo S Class V8 4 matic for peanuts.
Not sure i could afford the insurance, servicing and fuel bills. And it was LHD for their continental motoring holidays.
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Hurray. But 3p not enough! High time all these porky Polestars and two ton Teslas battering our roads contributed more to their upkeep. Might cut down on their currently inexpensive needless unproductive journeys - must be nice to be paid for lots of mindless working hours esconced in an airconditioned capsule being entertained by the ICE (that's in-car-ent, not int-comb-eng)
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Hybrids are mentioned in that article. The devil will be in the detail - Will PHEV, HEV or even mild hybrids be clobbered? Only the PHEV plugs into an electrical charge socket.
Last edited by: BigJohn on Sat 8 Nov 25 at 09:23
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A self charging hybrid is just an efficient car. Any petrol it uses is appropriately penalised. So logically it should be left alone.
Especially as we have one.
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Perhaps we should all remind ourselves that this story was first published in the Daily Express and as far as I can see has no corroboration elsewhere. It was just made up. Shocking eh?
Of course some sort of road charging is inevitable at some time but it’s not going to happen in the budget.
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Sorry it was the Telegraph not the Express that carried the story. How could I confuse the two :-)
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>> Sorry it was the Telegraph not the Express that carried the story.
and also in the the Independant, Whatcar, Autocar etc..
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The Telegraph was the source of the story acknowledged by the BBC and others.
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>> Sorry it was the Telegraph not the Express that carried the story. How could I
>> confuse the two :-)
>>
You're from Norfolk.
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>> You're from Norfolk.
His case is rested.
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Doesn't matter where we're from......
Tax on Ev's
Fuel duty freeze to be lifted so that plus vat on the 5p = 6p on a litre.
Vat raised ?
VEd raised again by £5 or £10 ?
For many people it'll be hard to bear.
No £5 plus pints in our local, no eating out when not on holiday..
Last edited by: ORB>> on Sun 9 Nov 25 at 09:37
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>> Doesn't matter where we're from......
>> Tax on Ev's
>> Fuel duty freeze to be lifted so that plus vat on the 5p = 6p
>> on a litre.
>>
>> Vat raised ?
>> VEd raised again by £5 or £10 ?
>> For many people it'll be hard to bear.
>>
>> No £5 plus pints in our local, no eating out when not on holiday..
I don't think they'll raise VAT unless the try the 'luxury goods' wheeze from the seventies.
That fuel duty has remained frozen for years is a tribute to the fear of lorry drivers protests and needs sorting.
A tenner a year on road tax is a drop in the ocean compared with all the other costs of running a car.
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Here's a good one. Take your EV abroad and say knock up a 1000 Mile's. Not only do you pay say France by buying one of those Crit thingies. But that 1000 Mile's is also going to be counted towards your UK mileage.
Can we say Triple taxation? Once for UK VED, once for UK PPM and once for Foreign taxation.
Reports of UK governmental fiscal competence appear to be somewhat optimistic.
A golden age for those individuals offering 'Mileage Correction Services'.
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Wouldn't it be easier for her to slap £100 VED on hybrids, BEVs and a couple of pence/litre on petrol/diesel fuels?
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>> Wouldn't it be easier for her to slap £100 VED on hybrids, BEVs and a
>> couple of pence/litre on petrol/diesel fuels?
>>
Well of course it would and that’’s exactly what is likely to happen. Proper road pricing would cost billions to implement.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 9 Nov 25 at 16:52
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BEVs have already been hit with VED. Bit unreasonable that is includes cars bought before the change. Also new ones have lost the luxury tax exemption.
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>> Not only do you pay say France by buying one of those Crit thingies.
The Crit thingies cost a few Euros and allow access to restricted zones.
The cost is nugatory in the overall scheme of things.
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I bought a Crit for 2/6d a few years ago before driving Dieppe -> Andorra. Just in case i got sidetracked. They last the lifetime of the car.
Won’t be doing that again. Portsmouth > Bilbao or Santander twice a year now. Lesson learned.
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Well, you'll likely not get charged for mileage on the ferry. ;-)
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In France the CritAir cost is really cheap and you do it once but the big cost is the Autoroute toll.
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I've got to buy another Crit thingy next year because Autoglass couldn't get the existing one off my Superb's windscreen when they repladced it after I received a bullseye from a truck on the M6 just outside Stoke-on-Trent this summer. Always hated that wretched place.
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Though you're not supposed to, I know of people who use the old tax-disc holders to place Crit'air and Umweltplakkete discs on the screen.
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Heidi Alexander (Transport Secretary) has today said that there are no plans for a pay per mile scheme for EV or any other fuel source.
Looks like another right wing press scare story.
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Much as this govt would like to, they can't get away with always blaming someone else.
This govt is becoming rather adept at floating ideas to test the reaction.
Or maybe it's another U turn.
Who knows.
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>Who knows.
The Treasury has been briefing the press for weeks to gauge the reaction to additional or increased taxes here and there. Even the Speaker has grown so tired of the leaks and subsequent u-turns that he felt it necessary to reprimand officials about the "hokey cokey" budget and repeat the warnings from real economists that it was damaging the economy.
They are literally clueless.
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>> Heidi Alexander (Transport Secretary) has today said that there are no plans for a pay
>> per mile scheme for EV or any other fuel source.
>> Looks like another right wing press scare story.
>>
I’m not sure about right wing press scare story - it’s been in or on every UK news outlet since the idea was first floated. It’s simply a consequence of a government without a plan, and whose approach to developing policy is to leak every hare brained idea they have and see which ones get pushback, acquiescence or endorsement. Then, if there is acquiescence, such as on income tax increases / NI reductions it really underlines your competence if you almost immediately deny that you ever planned on increasing it ;)
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"The Chancellor also confirmed that a pay-per-mile pricing scheme will be introduced for electric car drivers from 2028. The 3p tariff – added to car tax bills based on predicted annual mileage – will add around £255 in costs for the average driver covering 8,500 miles.
The rate per mile will rise in line with CPI inflation each year. Plug-in hybrids will also be caught in the pricing net, and will be charged 1.5p per mile."
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Predicted? ooo I predict my new electric car will do about 1000 miles pa, and the clock will be wound back prior to its first MOT.......
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It might be they will have an insanely complex by passable self reporting scheme with possible visits for inspections somewhere.
Or they could say the average miles per year for UK drivers is 8000 pa and add the resulting £240 to the VED at renewal time for everyone.
I wonder which.
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They have an arrangement with the Chinese to pass the monitored information on (Quid pro quo for the new embassy).
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>> They have an arrangement with the Chinese to pass the monitored information on (Quid pro
>> quo for the new embassy).
No need the Chinese will be tapping into the fibre cables that run under the site. (tho it has been rumoured, as its been passed as OK by MI5, the data flowing through those cables might not be errrr accurate......)
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[[>> It might be they will have an insanely complex by passable self reporting scheme with
>> possible visits for inspections somewhere.
>>
>> Or they could say the average miles per year for UK drivers is 8000 pa
>> and add the resulting £240 to the VED at renewal time for everyone.
>>
>> I wonder which.]]
Probably neither of them.
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Well. Since posting a few minutes ago, I've discovered it's sort of the first one. You will have to go for an inspection in the years before requiring an MOT to, um, an MOT tester, for them to read your mileage, which one suspects won't be free. Someone has to pay the mileage reader after all
So you can pay a man to report your mileage to the Government so you can pay them as well.
Sounds ideal.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 26 Nov 25 at 16:40
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>> Predicted? ooo I predict my new electric car will do about 1000 miles pa, and
>> the clock will be wound back prior to its first MOT.......
>>
Possibly, but anything new from July 2024 comes with an Event Data Recorder so big brother might already know the mileage.
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FB is full of "mathematicians" saying they will just ditch their EV's and go back to petrol or diesel.
The fuel tax, which will rise and is VATable, is currently 52.95p per litre, or about 5p per mile even for a decently economical car.
This was always going to happen at some point and I guess it has been deferred hitherto until a suitable methos of actually doing it has been worked out. Which I doubt if it has. An undesirable consequence will be that EVs will be widely clocked and/or people will just lie about mileage.
Time also to withdraw the purchase grants? Subsidies were there to promote uptake which they have now done.
Very pleased with our new self charging hybrid. I think it's one of a select number of new car options that is not a financial time bomb. I want cars that I know I will be able to use indefinitely (i.e. until I expire if I want to). There isn't a big European brand I would touch now.
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>> (i.e. until I expire if I want to).
I don't think you get much choice over that event. ;-)
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Of course this is due to come in just around the next election, so what’s the bets that it will be delayed or postponed or something as an election promise?
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It still seems to me that, barring some sort of black box, there is no straightforward method of charging per mile that is not open to widespread evasion fraud and is not open to all sorts of administrative problems and costs. The pay per mile element will be dropped and VED for EVs will be substantially increased.
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>> It still seems to me that, barring some sort of black box, there is no
>> straightforward method of charging per mile that is not open to widespread evasion fraud and
>> is not open to all sorts of administrative problems and costs.
One car is MOT'd mileage is logged every year.
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car is MOT'd mileage is logged every year.
1) cars are not currently MOT's for the first three years of their live. A process to record mileage in that period would have to be set up.
2) The car would have to have mileage checked every time it is bought and sold. The two figures are not necessarily the same if for example the car is bought say from a dealer.
3) If the charge is ostensibly a charge for driving on UK roads then there would need to be a system for noting mileage driven overseas. Drivers would otherwise be paying in France via tolls and UK via mileage charge.
4) the same argument could be made for miles incurred driving on private roads such as M6 Toll
5) EV odometers can easily be altered with the approriate software. Much easier apparently than altering a physical odometer.
6) A system to audit whoever is verifying mileages would need to be set up. the potential for lucrative fraud is high
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>> The pay per mile
>> element will be dropped and VED for EVs will be substantially increased.
>>
>>
>>
That's where my bet would go. Far easier to administer and for the near to mid future the typical purchaser for an EV is unlikely to be a VED evader.
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They might look at a system of increased VED for years 1-3 and then use MoT mileage from end of year 3.
There is a problem with buying and selling cars if they do down the mileage route.
How can the miles be apportioned between owners without a lot of bureaucracy?
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There are many simple ways of transitioning the loss of government of income during the move to EVs.
You could add taxes and increased VAT on charging networks, You can increase road tax on EVs, you could add an extra tax to insurance for certain vehicle types.
Plenty of ways to do it.
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Like car insurance - probably you'll self assess your mileage on taxing the car. Only if there is a problem will it be investigated.
I've been thinking of how to compare the pence per mile EV with petrol/diesel cars. VAT is complicated as with EVs two rates CAN be involved (5% home charger but 20% elsewhere). So for now I'll ignore as all fuel types pay VAT.
Basically petrol/diesel fuel duty currently fixed at 52.95p / litre so:-
@62mpg (my Swace but can be higher) that's 13.63 miles per litre then 52.95p divided by 13.63 gives 3.89p per mile
Same calc for a car doing 45mpg is 5.35p per mile. Same calc for car doing 30mpg gives 8.03p per mile - in fuel duty alone.
Last edited by: BigJohn on Wed 26 Nov 25 at 22:21
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"Chinese brands Omoda and Jaecoo have immediately responded to the Government’s announcement that a pay-per-mile road tax system will come into effect from 2028, essentially costing the average EV driver hundreds of pounds a year.
The pair have launched their own ‘EV Tax Rebate’, which they say will cancel out the incoming 3p per mile road tax for 20,000 miles. Available on the all-electric Omoda E5 and Jaecoo E5, which share the same underpinnings, the £600 ‘tax rebate’ is offered on cars purchased through Omoda and Jaecoo finance on a 48-month agreement."
[ www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/368409/jaecoo-and-omoda-announce-tax-rebate-counter-pay-mile-tax ]
Last edited by: James Loveless on Thu 27 Nov 25 at 08:18
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>> The pair have launched their own ‘EV Tax Rebate’, which they say will cancel out
>> the incoming 3p per mile road tax for 20,000 miles. Available on the all-electric Omoda
>> E5 and Jaecoo E5, which share the same underpinnings, the £600 ‘tax rebate’ is offered
>> on cars purchased through Omoda and Jaecoo finance on a 48-month agreement."
Are they effectively admitting their EV car prices are artificially inflated?
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... and there was me thinking it was a fairly smart move... !! :-)
It must be coming out of their profits, just like all the other car discounts which have been around over the years (I remember getting over 15% off a new Escort once)
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Are they effectively admitting their EV car prices are artificially inflated?
All cars and indeed all good have their price “artificially inflated “. It’s called profit. The aim of business is to make as much profit as the market allows. To reduce your profit margin with the aim of increasing turnover is perfectly normal practice as a trip round your local supermarket will testify
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A 3p per mile for 20,000 miles is worth £600.
It represents a 2% discount on a car costing ~£30k. There may be some get out clauses - what happens if you do less than 20k, what happens if the car is sold etc etc. Not payable for 2-4 years anyway.
A neat marketing ploy - not a reflection of excress profits.
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I don't think you can separate Chinese EV makers from the Chinese government.
They want to keep their economy booming and they have a less short term view than European governments.
Intended or not, they are currently doing a very good job of destroying the European car industry.
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>> I don't think you can separate Chinese EV makers from the Chinese government.
>>
>> They want to keep their economy booming and they have a less short term view
>> than European governments.
>>
>> Intended or not, they are currently doing a very good job of destroying the European
>> car industry.
>>
The Chinese have demonstrated the benefit of:
- a coherent consistent industrial and export strategy
- uninhibited by planning constraints etc
- underpinned by the authority and mass of government
- based upon much lower costs than European competition
- with rapid product development matching (possibly exceeding) European standards
- probably some questionable human rights
Europe and the UK by contrast has:
- high manufacturing and labour costs
- been slow to embrace new EV technologies
- constrained by unions, human rights, environmental considerations (mostly right)
European consumers have been complicit in the destruction of the car industry preferring value for money over subsidising relative inefficiency. Responsibility largely rests with ourselves.
The Chinese do not have a magic money tree to indefinitely subsidise exports - ultimately they need to trade profitably. But they do have the mass to fund start ups in line with their strategy and ride out short term fluctuations.
-
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And it goes without saying that Chinese workers and people in general have fewer rights than us.
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>> The Chinese do not have a magic money tree to indefinitely subsidise exports - ultimately
>> they need to trade profitably. But they do have the mass to fund start ups
>> in line with their strategy and ride out short term fluctuations.
>>
Exactly. And once the Chinese have got rid of the European car industry they can be guaranteed to push the prices up.
My worry is the loss of the jobs that will go with the car industry and all the support industries?? Which is why I won't be having a Chinese car on my drive.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 28 Nov 25 at 11:32
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“Which is why I won't be having a Chinese car on my drive.”
People said the same about Japanese cars in the seventies and that worked out well.
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>> “Which is why I won't be having a Chinese car on my drive.”
>>
>> People said the same about Japanese cars in the seventies and that worked out well.
>>
>>
Indeed - I had a 1976 Datsun 100A back in the day. Good reliable little car until suddenly it turned to rusty dust. It even did 50mpg, unheard of back then.
The Chinese are making some great cars these days but my issue (for now) is the rarity of parts etc. For many decades I've tried to stick to cars that have common oily bits across models and Manufacturers. EG Skoda Octavia (Golf/ Leon /A3) , Skoda Superb I ( VW Passat/ Audi A4) , Skoda Superb II (VW Passat/golf, Audi A3 etc.) and latterly Suzuki Swace (Toyota Corolla & other gen 5 hybrids) . Also since about 1996 I seem to have ended up with similar cars that taxi companies run.
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>> My worry is the loss of the jobs that will go with the car industry
>> and all the support industries?? Which is why I won't be having a Chinese car
>> on my drive.
Hmmm let me see, I think you are about 30 years too late, Dont think I have had a UK built car since one of BL's finest cockups in 1983.
The UK is not, and never has been, a leader in EV car components. We dont have rare earths, we dont have copper supplies, we are not, and really never have been mass makers of electronic components. We are not members of the EU, so we are not part of the European car market, we dont set standards or specs.
Where was your current car made by the way?
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 27 Nov 25 at 14:27
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> The Chinese have demonstrated the benefit of:
As Giorgia Meloni said:
"America innovates, China replicates and Europe regulates."
Warning that Europe was in an economic death spiral and becoming a geopolitical irrelevance because of over-regulation.
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>> Warning that Europe was in an economic death spiral and becoming a geopolitical irrelevance because of over-regulation.
Sadly, absolutely right.
All empires eventually decline and fail - Roman, Greek, Egyptian etc.
Options - accept quiet decline, reinvent ourselves (culture, behaviours, regulation etc) to compete, or continue in denial, get angry and play the victim.
Quiet decline may be comfortable. Reinvention promotes hope and positivity. Denial is truly depressing.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 28 Nov 25 at 11:32
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Back on the original subject, it’s not going to happen.
No government is brave enough to gather mileage data autonomously (entirely possible today) without crossing the ‘infringement of civil liberties’ path, and the other method is self declaration.
And that’s open to massive abuse. The trade in dodgy Firesticks is supplemented by the trade in dodgy mileage blockers.
The whole thing will fade away.
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The loss of revenue from fuel duty is not going to fade away. However I agree the problems of implementing a pay per mile system that is not not subject to fraud and massive admin costs are huge. I strongly suspect the solution will be a simple increase in VED, possibly banded to take into account the list price or size of the vehicle.
No doubt that this will be presented as an interim measure pending the solution to technical problems
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assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/69282ac1a245b0985f034197/eVED_Consultation.pdf
The government has published a consultation document on this issue which sets out its proposals in some detail. Anyone with views on thes proposals should make them known to the Government.
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>> Back on the original subject, it’s not going to happen.
>> No government is brave enough to gather mileage data autonomously (entirely possible today)
There are many current technical methods of collecting mileage data, the cost and agro of implemeting them increases with the levels of accuracy, security and fraud prevention. Completely accurate and secure, its probably on the "too hard and costly to implement' level.
Easy to do, is to tax roadside charging stations.
>>without crossing
>> the ‘infringement of civil liberties’ path,
Not a problem, as any company car driver will tell you.
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The Government has explicitly ruled out any system of electronic tracking of vehicles. See the document I posted earlier.
Taxing public charging stations wouldn’t work. Most EV drivers charge at home and rarely visit a public charger.
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>The Government has explicitly ruled out any system of electronic tracking of vehicles. See the
>document I posted earlier.
And Starmercards are to prevent illegal migrants working.
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The document doesn't really suggest there is an alternative to their scheme, which seems to be
- owner estimates annual mileage and pays at start of year (lump sum or could be monthly as per VED)
- balancing figure at end of year to deal with over/underpayment
- stated mileage verified (but not taken, as such) at MOT
- if miles are done abroad, too bad, they still count
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I can see a thriving market for something like this -
www.cnautotool.com/goods-5089-OBDSTAR+X300M+Mileage+Correction+Tool.html
No doubt Ail Express will be knocking similar out for under a tenner.
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>> Taxing public charging stations wouldn’t work. Most EV drivers charge at home and rarely visit
>> a public charger.
Given the generally crap range of most EVs in the real world, and high mileage drivers being forced to pay the most, your statement is most certainly open to wide interpretation.
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Not quite sure what you are saying but in the UK, a car travels 20 miles on average per day, 142 miles per week, 617 miles per month, and 7,400 miles per year. Well within the range of a car charged at home. Most ev charging for most ev owners is done at home at a current cost of around 2 to 3 pence per mile.”
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>> Not quite sure what you are saying but in the UK, a car travels 20
>> miles on average per day, 142 miles per week, 617 miles per month, and 7,400
>> miles per year. Well within the range of a car charged at home.
Which is fine for you in your country seat, what about those in urban on street parking areas?
Anyway this is about screwing EV drivers down to paying their way. What about rasiing a tax on home charging points.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 29 Nov 25 at 19:36
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"Anyway this is about screwing EV drivers down to paying their way. What about rasiing a tax on home charging point."
Yes this discussion is about EV drivers being taxed to offset lost revenue from fuel duty.
Neither of your proposal of taxing public or home chargers make much sense.
What does make sense and is most practical in increasing VED on cars which is what the Government proposes to do. My only issue is that trying to base the tax on miles driven is fraught with problems and that a simple increase in VED for EVs would be the simpler snd easier solution to implement
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 29 Nov 25 at 20:14
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>> Yes this discussion is about EV drivers being taxed to offset lost revenue from fuel
>> duty.
>>
>> Neither of your proposal of taxing public or home chargers make much sense.
Of course they do. Currently taxing motorists is a hybrid approach. Road tax, Fuel Duty, VAT, (could include insurance tax I guess) congestion charge, Clean Air zones.
And of course, somehow, convince users to move to EVs by financial means.
So, taxing EV drivers needs to be equally hybrid, and taxing charging points make perfect sense in this approach.
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And how exactly would you effectively tax home EV chargers as you suggest ?The idea doesn’t stack up.
The Government has no idea whether I have a home charger or not. If they did know they wouldn’t know if I was using it and I can quite easily charge my car without using a charge point by using a thirteen amp socket instead
Do tell me
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>> Do tell me
Good, we are making progress, we have tuned you in to the hybrid approach and you have dropped your public car chargers complaint.
Now home chargers. You could make it mandatory all new chargers require registration at point of sale, you could tell the home insurance companies to make it declarable (mutter fire risk or sumink) you could require retrospective planning permission etc etc.
do try and think out of the box, be a little more creative in your approach, remember you are a labour chancellor
As for charging your car through a 13 amp plug, have you seen some of the charging times for that?
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 30 Nov 25 at 08:53
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Don’t you think it might just be a little easier, more efficient and cost effective for the Government to simply increase the VED?. Well I know you do really.
As regarding charging with a three pin plug I actually did that for two months when I got my EV. Yes it takes longer but it’s easily doable. Most people’s cars are sitting on the drive for most of the day and night unused anyway. I guess that even yours is, when you are not performing epic non stop drives around the U.K.
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>> Given the generally crap range of most EVs in the real world, and high mileage
>> drivers being forced to pay the most, your statement is most certainly open to wide
>> interpretation.
Genuine question. What number would you put on the crap real world range of an EV.
Obviously they won't so what my Superb can and get to the Western Isles ferry on on fill up but as CGN points out many users do only a handful of miles. My Mothers first two cars, Issigonis type Minis, did around 36,000 miles in the six years it took for tin worm to be near terminal.
If we still needed a second car then even when I was driving to an advice outreach in Kettering every week an electric would cut the mustard perfectly well.
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>> Genuine question. What number would you put on the crap real world range of an EV.
Anything under 400 miles in real world driving without a 40 minute stop* for charge or range anxiety. ((* and hoping they are not full or broken))
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>> Anything under 400 miles in real world driving without a 40 minute stop* for charge
>> or range anxiety. ((* and hoping they are not full or broken))
Maybe a contrast between leisure and business travel?
If I'm going north on the M6 via M1/J16 en route Scotland or the Lakes I can usually get to Charnock Richard, about 150 miles and two and a half to three hours from home before needing a stop.
Just nipping to the loo and grabbing a sarnie etc is probably 20 minutes. Add a coffee and a sit down and the 40 mins ain't a big difference.
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>> Just nipping to the loo and grabbing a sarnie etc is probably 20 minutes. Add
>> a coffee and a sit down and the 40 mins ain't a big difference.
Add of course, driving to the caravn part, unhitching the van, driving to the charging point, waiting for some other oik for a spare slot, driving back to the caravan, hitching it up......
My one stop on the way back from whitby was 15 minutes.
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>> Add of course, driving to the caravn part, unhitching the van, driving to the charging
>> point, waiting for some other oik for a spare slot, driving back to the caravan,
>> hitching it up......
>>
>> My one stop on the way back from whitby was 15 minutes.
I'm some way from towing with an electric car.
Seoras the Diesel Superb should be ok until 2034 at least.
Had a problem in France in second year of 'van ownership in a tight supermarket filling station filling the 'lingo with a 'van of similar size to yours on tow. With hindsight I panicked in a situation that with more experience would be doable without knacking the awning rail against a pump.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 29 Nov 25 at 22:41
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I wonder if the advertised 400+ mile range EVs actually do 400 miles? There's a few about mainly MB, teslas and BMWs, but like all high end things they look pretty expensive.
I suppose in time people will just get used to stopping for longer on journeys, but for those that don't they've probably another 10 or more years of driving before they have to worry about swapping.
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>> I wonder if the advertised 400+ mile range EVs actually do 400 miles?
Mostly? In the real world of UK driving? Nope never.
There's a
>> few about mainly MB, teslas and BMWs,
MB? not a hope, well short. BMW ditto, Tesla? closer but dont count on it.
I'm keeping my eye on it, when they get to claims of 500 miles, then you know 400 miles is doable, and I'll be planning to jump to EV
It will come.
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www.autoexpress.co.uk/best/longest-range-electric-cars
Some of these aren't that far off 500 miles claimed range.
CLA - 484 miles
iX3 493 miles
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>> www.autoexpress.co.uk/best/longest-range-electric-cars
>>
>> Some of these aren't that far off 500 miles claimed range.
>>
>> CLA - 484 miles
408 miles obtained in very benign driving. Ie Not the UK city/urban/motorway mix.
And thats what pees me off about EV car marketing. The extravagant unobtainable ranges quoted. Mind you the MPG claims of ICE makers is just as criminal.
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408? Which car do you mean?
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>> 408? Which car do you mean?
Think you will find the clue is in the quoted text?
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>> >> 408? Which car do you mean?
>>
>> Think you will find the clue is in the quoted text?
>>
Ah it was link in the link.
Across a range of motorways, A-roads and city driving we tested the car on, we managed an impressive 4.8m/kWh which, when extrapolated, would see a range of 408 miles.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 30 Nov 25 at 10:36
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I don’t really understand the fuss over the difference between claimed and actual range of an EV. Official fuel economy figures have always been a work of fiction My old BMW 235i had a claimed fuel economy of 40.something mpg, and a 13 gallon tank. That’s a claimed range of over 500 miles. In the real world I’d have to fill it up between 250 and 280 miles - less than 60% of claimed economy. Even the good old E250CDI, which had a claimed 55mpg, would never exceed 40mpg in real world use. That’s 30% less.
In comparison, my i5 has a claimed range of 350, which you will never see in the real world. But, it’ll never do less than 240, and usually do between 270 and 300. It’s 2 years old, done 36,000 miles, including around 5,000 in France / Italy, and 22% of its charging has been done at fast chargers. It’s got a real world range at autoroute speeds of about 3 hours driving - say 240 miles. A 20 minute stop always gets to me to wherever I want to be, as I don’t drive more than 400/450 miles a day while on those trips.
But you do have to remember that on the autoroutes the charging and petrol stations are further apart than on the UK road network. It’s fine - the BMW nav is good at routing via chargers, and knows the availability, speed and cost of them. It’s better in the real world than a Tesla, because it doesn’t prioritise superchargers that are often off-route. But then I remember being caught out in a diesel car by thinking I’d skip a service station and stop at the next one, then seeing the 60something km to services signpost :)
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>> I don’t really understand the fuss over the difference between claimed and actual range
Because its fundamentally dishonest. You and I may take it with a pinch of salt, but plenty of joe soaps out there dont. The fact its widespread in both EV / ICE world doesent make it any more acceptable.
As VAG found out, with subsequent financial penalties and reputational damage.
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Oh yes, but my point is that it’s not EV only issue as it’s affected ICE claimed economy since the beginning of time. No one stands a chance of getting the claimed combined 40 mpg from a 235i or 55mog from a E250CDi or the 42 mpg of an E350 petrol. So why is it so much more of an issue for an EV?
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>> 42 mpg of an E350 petrol. So why is it so much more of an
>> issue for an EV?
Becuase they make such a big deal of it, its the major differentiator between brands and makes up much of the price point bands.
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And the punters and the press - everyone males a big deal of it.
How many drivers really ever want to drive 400 miles in a day?
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Well the manufactures have to sell you their cars some how because it's certainly not on style and looks (apart from maybe Renault) - I've always driven Golfs, my 7.5 GTI is the best car I've had in so many ways, SUV or bigger sized vehicles are just not for me, it wasn't that long ago that it was predicted that EVs would need to be sleek and aerodynamic to make the most of the available charge - obviously something has caused a flip to go the exact opposite to the current slab sided monsters I come across on my daily commute.
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"I've always driven Golfs, my 7.5 GTI is the best car I've had
I've had 4 Golfs. Now have an ID3. To my mind far superior to any of the Golfs. Rented a petrol Golf in Maderia last month. What a mistake that was! Could have done with the torque of an EV on those hills. Madeira is actully now very geared up for EVs with loads of chargers. If I return I know what I shall rent nest time.
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Had an automatic petrol VW Taigo last week on Fuerteventura and found it OK.
First time we went to Madeira hire car allocated was a 1 litre Citroen. Car hire agent tried to tell me I needed to upgrade to cope with gradients. Ignored cylinder capacity and asked about PS - 120.
No trouble at all on any climb.
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Well the Golf certainly managed the hills but driving a manual again was a real pain, Missed autohold and the instaneous power when pulling away of an EV. I don't know if you have ever driven an EV but if not do try one. Makes driving so much simpler and enjoyable
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>>Missed autohold and the instaneous power when pulling away of an EV.
Also available in petrol. I have autobox, autohold, 350 horsepowers and 480 torques.
Dont fancy 5 metres of BMW on madiera tho
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>> And the punters and the press - everyone males a big deal of it.
>>
>> How many drivers really ever want to drive 400 miles in a day?
Well given that the recomendation is to only charge it to 80% and charge it at 20% you are only going to get 240 miles........ between charges on your 400 mile range.
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>> Well given that the recomendation is to only charge it to 80% and charge it at 20% you are only going to get 240 miles........ between charges on your 400 mile range.
For day-to-day driving not a bad plan, but for long hauls charging to 100% on cheap home leccy is a good idea.
Running below 20% isn't an issue if you are heading for a charger.
The main problem with high and low charge states is the calendar aging is faster for a battery that stays at those levels for days.
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>> How many drivers really ever want to drive 400 miles in a day?
Starting from here the Western Isles ferry from Uig is all but 600. Inverness as a hop to Ullapool is 500. Fort William as a hop to Uig about 450.
Variations on those once a year.
Channel port to the Alps or Massif are on a similar scale.
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I think 400 miles in a day is a subtly different consideration to 400 miles without a recharge/refill (particularly when away from home).
Currently at my daughter's, which is a 500 mile return trip. Most EVs would need at least one charge in each direction to be comfortable. There is little charging infrastructure here.
I can't quite do the return journey on one tank of petrol, but a fill at the supermarket up the road costs me less than 5 minutes and will get me home with just under half a tank.
Patently, a well-planned intermediate charging stop in each direction might just suffice in an EV, but we tend to plan any such stops on the basis of ambience and food quality rather than availability of charging.
(I'm not against EVs per se. If the Smart expires I'd strongly consider a small one with a minimum of 150 miles real range, but for me at least, having one as the "workhorse" vehicle would involve more compromise than I'm currently happy with)
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>> (I'm not against EVs per se. If the Smart expires I'd strongly consider a small
>> one with a minimum of 150 miles real range,
Dont get me wrong, neither am I, if Mrs Z fiesta blows up, I would like nothing more than a new yellow R5 E-Tech on the drive. Its range would suit her driving miles profile perfectly.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 30 Nov 25 at 17:38
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>> Had a problem in France in second year of 'van ownership in a tight supermarket
>> filling station filling the 'lingo with a 'van of similar size to yours on tow.
>> With hindsight I panicked in a situation that with more experience would be doable without
>> knacking the awning rail against a pump.
Pfftt. Had to tow mine through a macy d drive through once.
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>>Pfftt. Had to tow mine through a macy d drive through once.
Zeddo using Maccy D? He'll be meeting Dunc in 'Spoons next.
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Drove to Aberdeen on Thursday for a Conference.
Hyundai Ioniq6 RWD (WLTP 338 miles)
Wet roads, 13ºC, stuck to 61mph on the A90.
Used 44% of the battery at 3.7 mpkWh which equated to a total range of 300 miles.
Topped back up to 87% on a Tesla Supercharger (really just fancied testing it out - absolutely painless).
Came home in the dark in torrential rain, heavy winds, 7ºC and stuck the CC at 71mph (avg speed cams most of the way).
Used 60% of the battery at 2.7mpkWh which would equate to 220 miles of range.
I could have managed significantly better by driving slower but I was keen to get home, and at 7p/kWh overnight charging I don't really care about the cost of "refueling".
In summer driving like Mr Magoo (61mph) on a dry road I suspect it would easily exceed the WLTP.
As for towing a 'van? Forget EVs for now unless you are very keen. Would expect you would get 2/3 of the non-van range.
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>> As for towing a 'van? Forget EVs for now unless you are very keen. Would
>> expect you would get 2/3 of the non-van range.
About 50% seems to be the generally obtained figure. Which has always mystified me given the excelent torque characteristics of electric traction motors.
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>>About 50% seems to be the generally obtained figure. Which has always mystified me given the excelent torque characteristics of electric traction motors.
Might be because they are so efficient (ICE are fantastic at creating heat more than motion) that rolling resistance has a greater impact than on ICE?
This ugly mofo* can pull 2500kg, and is probably good for 190-200 miles pulling a 'van (0-60 in 5.2s is..... superfluous)
www.new-car-discount.com/car/hyundai/ioniq-9-electric-estate/4x4/electric/automatic/314kw-calligraphy-110kwh-5dr-awd-auto/25/
* not quite in the SsangYong Rodius tier but 'tis pretty unpleasant to my eye.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Sun 30 Nov 25 at 10:33
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>> * not quite in the SsangYong Rodius tier but 'tis pretty unpleasant to my eye.
Alas, that seems to be the current style for SUVs from all makers. Why? when you dont need to provide large cooling radiators in Evs?
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Sometimes I think they are trying to be not too radical or different from what we think a car should look like.
I heard that they had to introduce creep when stationary to appease auto ICE drivers.
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>> About 50% seems to be the generally obtained figure. Which has always mystified me given
>> the excelent torque characteristics of electric traction motors.
I think we've both said our ICE cars rarely exceed 50% of 'normal' mpg when towing.
I suspect the clincher is adding well over a tonne in load and the 'van having the aerodynamics of a breeze block.
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>> >>Pfftt. Had to tow mine through a macy d drive through once.
>>
>> Zeddo using Maccy D? He'll be meeting Dunc in 'Spoons next.
The annoying thing is I didnt intend to take that route, and didnt have the presence of mind to order one.
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It is no surprise towing a caravan has a major impact on economy.
The increase in energy consumed is a function of the overall weight and frontal area both of which are roughly doubled. Towing something with the aerodynamics of a brick won’t help!
With an ICE degradation in economy is sensibly expressed in terms of mpg. For an EV as range is the major constraint. But the outcome is much the same - a loss of ~30-50% over a solo vehicle.
Torque curves etc have little to with it - it is simple energy consumption required to move a weight with certain aerodynamic characteristics.
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Another factor is that an EV towing a caravan is likely to be using the brakes more, rather than just relying on the regenerative braking.
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>> Another factor is that an EV towing a caravan is likely to be using the
>> brakes more, rather than just relying on the regenerative braking.
Actually, tis other way round. You avoid using the brakes as much as possible, throttle off long way before roundbouts and coast in trying not to stop, throttle off regen braking (level selectable ideally) and lower mandated speed limits should be the dynamic sweet spot for EVs
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>> Pfftt. Had to tow mine through a macy d drive through once.
The whole disaster was not necessary.
We were in a bit of France I know like the back of my hand.
Stopping for a supermarket stop for the night's meal meal and some booze made perfect sense.
We managed to miss the aire where we should have filled up but still had range of 100+ miles with maybe ten or so to go. Why I insisted on trying to refuel in a massively constrained space when I could have left until the next day with 'van on pitch is one of those daft things you commit to.
Why once I realised I'd snookered myself I didn't think harder about using forward and reverse gears or unhitch the 'van and push/motor move it is another.
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>> The whole disaster was not necessary.
>>
>> We were in a bit of France I know like the back of my hand.
To make you feel better, I nearly ended up in the same situation at the same Maccy D two years later.
Its down the A303 somewhere near Sparkford. We only wanted a wee.
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>> Why once I realised I'd snookered myself I didn't think harder about using forward and
>> reverse gears or unhitch the 'van and push/motor move it is another.
End of a long day?
Probably sucked into thinking how do this rather than should I do this.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 1 Dec 25 at 11:17
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>> End of a long day?
>>
>> Probably sucked into thinking how do this rather than should I do this.
That.
Exactly.
Started from Chartres at 10am with about 450 kilometres to cover. Messed up on the overnight at Chartres and got 'van very close to being stuck on long wet grass. That was the clincher for getting a motor mover as three adults struggled to push or pull it.
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>> That was the clincher for getting a motor mover as three adults struggled to push
>> or pull it.
Not to mention the jockey wheel on a gravel pitch try to dig its way to Australia. Motor mover every time.
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‘ Because its fundamentally dishonest. You and I may take it with a pinch of salt, but plenty of joe soaps out there dont. The fact its widespread in both EV / ICE world doesent make it any more acceptable.
As VAG found out, with subsequent financial penalties and reputational damage.’
You’re conflating two different situations.
Ordinarily, manufacturers can only quote the figures produced from undertaking the mandatory WLTP test. Yes, it tends to be optimistic, but it’s all we have and it’s better than the previous NEDC test.
I have driven EV’s and exceeded WLTP figures around town.
VAG is a different case - they were deliberately defrauding customers by cynically breaking the rules and got caught.
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When (big if) the proposed 3p per mile tariff is introduced for EV’s, I think I’ve got it cracked.
I’m going to reverse everywhere. Remember that an EV will theoretically go as fast backwards as it will forwards.
The government will end up owing me money.
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Back in the day when there was some fuel crisis or another the panda cars were restricted to 30 miles per shift, maybe less. Of course this was rigorously checked by supervision. This was not so much a barrier on days but different on a quiet night shift. Walk!!!!!!????? Goodness gracious.
Not unusual to see he odd Mk 2 Escort being driven spiritedly around a local park - backwards :)
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When I worked for a London borough the Marina vans had enough room round the back of the speedo to disconnect the cable. Any excess mileage for personal use could easily be hidden.
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A relation of a relation used to disconnect the speedo for roughly 6 months of the year. He did about 20K / year - daily commute was 40 miles. Serviced on the dot annually having changed the oil himself at 6 months.
The cars were bought new/ almost new, well looked after and looked immaculate when traded-in.. The dealer / next owner would be unaware of the fiddled mileage.
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I'm fairly sure the Mother of a client of mine when I worked for the Court of Protection allowed her 'fella' to disconnect the speedo on the Motability car she had for the kid who'd been injured in a car accident and use it as an unofficial taxi.
Probably should have reported it but I think it would only have made matters worse in what was probably an abusive relationship.
This was 30 years ago; public servants are encouraged to be more proactive today.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 1 Dec 25 at 11:07
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>> I’m going to reverse everywhere. Remember that an EV will theoretically go as fast backwards
>> as it will forwards.
I think, and its only a thunk, that the mileage still clocks up
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>>
>> >> I’m going to reverse everywhere. Remember that an EV will theoretically go as fast
>> backwards
>> >> as it will forwards.
>>
>> I think, and its only a thunk, that the mileage still clocks up
This probably has rather less credibility than the proposition that the cable would be disconnected and spun backwards my someone handy with a Black a Decker - leccy being cheaper than petrol!
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I wonder how other countries are tackling this problem? In Europe there is far more cross-border traffic than there is in Northern Ireland/Irish Republic.
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The internet tells me that Victoria in Australia is the only other country taxing EVs per mile, has been doing so since 2021, and it's done by online submission of a photo of the odometer. EVs pay 2.5 cents per kilometre, PHEVs 2.0 cents/km.
Many countries charge trucks often by an onboard GPS unit.
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...but as usual, (allowing for the difference between charging per mile and per km) the internet is wrong.
New Zealand is now charging EVs on a per km basis via an extension of their RUC (Road User Charge) that has historically, for some time, been applied to diesel vehicles. (petrol vehicles pay fuel duty, diesel don't).
The distance is paid for in advance by 1000km chunks (and a badge is issued that must be displayed).
AIUI this is managed via an Odometer check at the MOT equivalent, though there are electronic solutions available to fleet managers.
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>>The internet tells me that Victoria in Australia is the only other country taxing EVs per mile,
The internet is wrong. Victoria tried to introduce such a charge but it was stopped by the courts. They classed the tax as an "excise" and only the Federal government can charge excise. The Feds have said that they are going to bring in an EV tax but they have not done so yet.
Also Australia does not use miles. They went metric in the 1960s as are most other countries. Only the UK and the US use miles.
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>> Probably the most reasoned argument I’ve read so far about why it’ll never work -
>>
>>
>> www.linkedin.com/pulse/19-billion-question-can-uk-actually-collect-its-new-ev-baker-wjqje?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&utm_campaign=share_via
Reads like the author was tasked with finding 101 ways why it won't work.
If insurance black boxes work I don't think, ignoring 'big brother' fears, a telemetry solution is beyond the wit of man.
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‘ I wonder how other countries are tackling this problem? In Europe there is far more cross-border traffic than there is in Northern Ireland/Irish Republic.’
Toll booths and ANPR on motorways/trunk roads, like the M50 around Dublin.
But a very different proposition to electronically gathering all driven mileage.
Last edited by: mcb100 on Tue 2 Dec 25 at 12:09
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The major issue is the cost of collection.
Fuel duties are paid to the Treasury when the fuel leaves the refinery or storage depot. At a guess there are no more than a couple of hundred in the UK making collection cheap - easy to collect, monitor and audit.
Contrast with ultimately collecting from 30m private vehicles + commercials. Evasion likely to be a material issue if reliant on self declaration.
In the long term I would expect a telematic solution, probably with the ability to disable vehicles which have not paid.
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>>Cost of collection...
I suspect one will go to the garage, they will update the "system" and will ask you to pay then and there.
A few thoughts....
Expect the charge to go up periodically.
Who is responsible for the charge - the driver or registered keeper - an issue for lease companies?
What happens re hire cars? Will mileage be recorded before and after a hire and a charge passed on to the hirer?
Will foreign electric vehicles be charged when they come in to the UK? Easy to record their mileage on entry and exit ;-D
It seems unfair to require a payment for miles done abroad. Could foresee this to be a problem in Northern Ireland where folk could drive back and forth across the boarder daily.
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Yet another accidental breach of the Northern Ireland agreement:)
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The Budget...
I noticed that an extra 2 pence tax was placed on rental income and interest earnt because NI is not collected on these earnings.
Expect this charge to come to a pension near you in future years. They'll use the excuse that pensioners use a disproportionately high percentage of NHS services etc.
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“They'll use the excuse that pensioners use a disproportionately high percentage of NHS services etc.”
They do.
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>> “They'll use the excuse that pensioners use a disproportionately high percentage of NHS services etc.”
>>
>> They do.
Yeah, a NHS is a rubbish business model.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 2 Dec 25 at 21:41
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>> “They'll use the excuse that pensioners use a disproportionately high percentage of NHS services etc.”
>>
>> They do.
>>
...and at the point they become pensioners they will have contributed a disproportionally high amount of the funding.. ;-)
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Making a distinction between NI and tax has historical roots now largely irrelevant.
They are both taxes whose revenue goes to the Treasury to be allocated as they see fit.
In a digital world to record entitlement to benefits the rate of NI could be 1% and the rate of tax increased to compensate. Just one example of how UK taxation has become massively complex and in desperate need of overhaul.
The rationale for the increased rate for interest and other non work income is weak and represents an increase in taxation breaking the manifesto promise.
Why am I not surprised.
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Going back to the EV taxation thing.
Personally I think the 5p fuel duty surcharge rebate should have been removed years ago.
For EV taxation just add the tax to the purchase price first year charge.
As I have said before on the old HJ forum.
Everyone wants healthcare hospitals and decent public services.
Nobody wants to pay.
Hence all the bleating here and elsewhere.
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I don't see much bleating here, certainly not in an unreasonable way.
In fact it seems to be quite reasonable that people might make adverse comments when they have spent quite a sum on a car, probably with low running costs being part of the decision, and along come two reasonably costly hikes to running costs in fairly quick succession make a comment, despite us all understanding that the country needs the money. I'm not sure anyone here has said they don't want to pay either. But I'm not about to go poring back through the whole thread to prove/disprove.
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Ultimately we'll mainly end up with zero emissions cars long term as ICE vehicles eventually hit the big scrapyard in the sky, ignoring a few classic survivors - so at that point the fuel duty to the Government would be nearly zero. Clearly that would have be a huge problem.
On balance the 3p / mile figure is reasonable as it's better than with even the most economical cars re fuel duty.
I'd say the worst case scenario will be privately owned plug in hybrids that will have to pay an additional 1.5p/mile as if used for many long journeys they are not necessarily the most efficient in real life as once the bit of electricity has run out they become a less economical petrol hybrid that has to carry the combined weight of bigger batteries and ICS gubbins so they will be paying a fair bit of fuel duty as well. The time a plug in hybrid works is if you have a commute that's within the plug in range. However many have been bought as company cars for reduced benefit in kind payments.
Last edited by: BigJohn on Wed 3 Dec 25 at 20:58
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Many, possibly most, hybrids are never plugged in.
They were bought as company cars for the tax benefits, not the EV and environental potential.
Taxing them at a reduced rate as if a significant part oif their mileage was on electric may be a good way of penalising those who use them just as an ICE.
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>>However many have been bought as company cars for reduced benefit in kind payments.
And in many cases never plugged in, according the the Mitsubishi dealer I used before they closed.
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Don't mind paying at all, to get a decent service.
Will complain about waste though....
A couple of local examples:
This year's town centre Christmas Tree cost £45,000!!!!!!!!!
It's made of Meccano type metal with LED light strips. Someone has made a pretty penny from that.
The council gave away a valuable community built building to a local charity earlier this year. The building was in fair condition - it wasn't that old.
The charity has not used it and is flogging it for £650k which it will keep!!!!!
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"Everyone wants healthcare hospitals and decent public services.
Nobody wants to pay. Hence all the bleating here and elsewhere."
When you drill down into sheer bureaucratic incompetence and waste bleating becomes justified.
As an example, you my remember my trip to Ukraine in June where I was part of a group delivering 8 end of life ambulances. These were filled with surplus 'out of date' (still in date) medical supplies obtained by a charity from Ambulance Trusts and hospitals locally. Some of this due to procurement rules. The overall value was well into 7 figures. This would normally have gone into landfill.
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EVs to pay per mile - Bobby
