Motoring Discussion > Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Falkirk Bairn Replies: 15
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 07:36 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Falkirk Bairn
It appears life to the Ineos Grenadier is complex
Usual type issues with new cars which all need to be fixed.
Selling Direct was the sales path BUT now they are recruiting Dealers

Production problems at the French Factory do not help.
Recaro Seats financial issue, trim manufacturer in financial trouble, production stopped September and slower sales all add up.

£1.4Billion ploughed into the car project since 2016 inception
August 2023 sales in the UK were 62
August 2024 sales in UK 23 = less than 1 a day.
Even Morgan Cars sell around 250 a year in the UK built cars in their Nissen Hut Factory in Malvern

Ineos Chemicals Success
Ineos Cycling successes
Ineos Americas Cup sailing successes
Ineos investment in Man Utd - ongoing issues

Ineos Grenadier -

Work in progress - around 20,000 cars built, quality issues, reliability, production issues .

Car manufacture / selling appears to be rather more difficult than bulk chemicals, plastics where his £Billions were made over the last 30 years.
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 10:15 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - zippy
Have you seen the switches on the thing - it's like a flight deck of a 1970's 747!

Should have kept it simple and therefore cheaper.
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 11:03 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Bobby
Harry Metcalfe reviewed one and after his video and feedback, had discussions with Ineos and then subsequently had a further review of one for his farm use.
IIRC big stumbling block was the price.
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 16:25 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - RichardW

>> IIRC big stumbling block was the price.

Have you seen the price of a current Defender ?!? No longer a work hack for the fields, that's for sure!
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 13:22 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Zero
>> Have you seen the switches on the thing - it's like a flight deck of
>> a 1970's 747!
>>
>> Should have kept it simple and therefore cheaper.

Think that was part of its design brief, ie "Landrover of old"

Anyway, better than burying the heater and defrost controls in the depths of several sub menus on a screen out of drivers sight line. AKA VW.
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 13:25 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Zero
Its relatively easy to build low volume, its a whole different world to ramp it up to larger volumes, as Musk found when he tried to ramp up Tesla volume. Even the big players with a hundred years of volume production get hit with issues.
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 19:48 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Terry
Cars costing £70k+ are never going to be high volume.

There are just two routes to success:

1. Like Porsche, Ferrari etc build on the longstanding success of the brand
2. Make something of quite exceptional merit

The Grenadier has little to offer over other premium 4x4s - Range Rover, Landcruiser etc. The latter also has the benefit of go anywhere utterly reliable credentials. It lacks badge and proven performance - a commercial disaster in the making.
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 2 Oct 24 at 19:49
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 Wed 2 Oct 24 23:26 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Bromptonaut
>> Cars costing £70k+ are never going to be high volume.

I guess that depends on how you define (high) volume.

Mass production v more or less hand built to order.
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 Thu 3 Oct 24 09:11 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Zero

>> I guess that depends on how you define (high) volume.

JLR produce 250k cars pa. Large proportion of those are 70k+. Ditto BMW & merc. As you say where is the volume break point. Seem to recall for Tesla they broke and had problems at about 200k.
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 Thu 3 Oct 24 10:05 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - carmalade
Did anyone think this venture would be successful?
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 Thu 3 Oct 24 10:29 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - sooty123
The investors probably did.
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 Thu 3 Oct 24 17:11 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Terry
>> >> Cars costing £70k+ are never going to be high volume.
>>
>> I guess that depends on how you define (high) volume.
>>
>> Mass production v more or less hand built to order.
>>

A fair question - there is no absolute break point. Toyota sell 10.3m vehicles a year followed by VW Group 9.2m, Hyundai 7.3m ........ in 9th position BMW 2.5m. The league table will no doubt change rapidly depending on who succeeds in the race to EV.

However volumes in the millions mean that:

- designs can be completely optimised for performance, materials and production cost
- common components can be used across a wide range of vehicles
- the most efficient production machines and processes are affordable

Making a few hundred, a few thousand, or even a few hundred thousand vehicles a year will be relatively inefficient:

- less investment in optimised designs results in more cost
- use of proprietary or other manufacturers components under licence
- less efficient production machinery - the best is too fast and too expensive

I would guess if Toyota built the Ineos using already proven components from Landcruiser and other cars in their ranges it would cost £50k not £80k. Toyota would likely be making a profit - rather than wondering when receivership becomes a reality.
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 Thu 3 Oct 24 22:00 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Zero

>> I would guess if Toyota built the Ineos using already proven components from Landcruiser and
>> other cars in their ranges it would cost £50k not £80k. Toyota would likely be
>> making a profit - rather than wondering when receivership becomes a reality.

New landcruiser starts at £71k Not that you can order one, Toyota has supply chain issues currently
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 Wed 9 Oct 24 09:31 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Zero

>> New landcruiser starts at £71k Not that you can order one, Toyota has supply chain
>> issues currently

Now £74k. Amazing what scarcity does for the price.
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 Wed 9 Oct 24 09:55 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Runfer D'Hills
Of course it’s a function of age, but I suppose that seems even more outrageous to those of us (very much including me) who have paid less than that for houses in the past. ;-)
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 Wed 9 Oct 24 10:38 
 Ineos 4x4 - £1.4Bn invested so far - Bromptonaut
>> Of course it’s a function of age, but I suppose that seems even more outrageous
>> to those of us (very much including me) who have paid less than that for
>> houses in the past. ;-)

I bought my second Brompton through the bike to work scheme. My manager, authorising my application, said something along the lines of £800 for a bike!! I paid less than that for my first car.
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