| Motoring Discussion > ULEZ - Unpaid fines. | Legal Questions |
| Thread Author: Fullchat | Replies: 8 |
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Tue 27 Aug 24 23:25
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Fullchat
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My next door neighbour contacted me the other day for some advice. For the sake of this story lets call them Mr and Mrs David Smith. 7am Sat morning they were awoken by a knock on the door. By the time they got there the person was gone but on the mat was a letter with a lot of red on it with threats to remove property issued by CDER Group. It related to £2300 worth outstanding fines in the TFL area. There was a mobile number which belonged to whoever had been knocking on the door which they rang and gained some more information. They spent most of the day trying to get further information. This involved the Debt Recovery company. CDER Group. The Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) - TFLs registration point for unpaid tickets, DVLA and as inquiries progressed Metropolitan Police and Thames Valley Police. In a nutshell two vehicles, a LR Discovery and a Peugeot van registered in Stansted and Milton Keynes respectively had been racking up tickets in and around the London area. They were also given the registration numbers of the vehicles. Some 30 + outstanding fines. By the end of the day this was ramping up to over £5000 worth of fines being processed or coming into the system. Thing is they have never owned those vehicles or been to London. Of course they were being sent around in circles with someone at CDER suggesting they pay the debt and then claim it back once they had sorted it out. Bar Stewards. An early call to the Met suggested that as they lived in the Humberside area it was reported to them. Humberside said they begged to differ but it was a Met job. It was at this point I became involved and tried to unravel all the information. This wasn't a case of cloned plates. The vehicles, registrations and registered keepers exist. We contacted Thames Valley and the Met and this time they couldn't have been more helpful and markers were placed on PNC. They confirmed the vehicles were respectively registered to Stanstead and Milton Keynes addresses under the names of Mr David Smith and Mrs David Smith. (The same as my neighbours). I typed out a letter to CDER outlining the emerging circumstances, corroborating no connection with the vehicles, persons or addresses and suggesting that they were holding incorrect data breaching the Data Protection Act and that this should be rectified and if not the Information Commissioners Office informed. It was left at that for the day but I had a chat over the hedge the following day. They had gleaned that on the 4th August their address had been attached to the registered keepers name at the TEC/CDER. How that happened wasn't revealed. It was also suggested that they provided details that at no time had the vehicles been in their possession. My response was something along the lines of "How the ****** do you prove you've not owned something?" For a fee DVLA will provide a registered keeper history for the vehicles. So that where they are at. I really feel for them as they are fighting a wall of bureaucracy and abdication of any responsibility at every turn and shes not particularly well. For them having to prove their innocence stinks. They are naturally concerned that this could lead to credit reference issues etc. I think the crux of the matter is how their address was attached to the vehicles, when there is seemingly no connection. There would appear to be a connection between the Stansted and MK addresses.There seems to be a lack of due diligence in establishing the authenticity of attaching names to a random address miles away. Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 27 Aug 24 at 23:30
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Wed 28 Aug 24 07:42
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Bromptonaut
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I've heard of similar though usually the V5 address is wrong and the Bailiffs are coming for the right person. TfL or whoever just send the Notice to Owner and the subsequent notices required by law to the Keeper. That's also the address supplied to the TEC. Once a warrant is issued companies like CDER do their own digging. They'll have access to various sources like credit records of linked persons etc. Social media must be a godsend for them. Is it possible that the MK and Stansted keepers found a similar name and told porkies? Maybe a subject access request to CDER be of some use in turning up how the presumed link was founded? Perhaps understandably Bailiffs (or CEOs as I think they're now called) are use to being spun any number of tales and don't just shuffle off with their tails between their legs when people like your neighbour say 'nuffin to do with me squire'. CEOs are subject to regulation under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and there are standards they should follow: www.gov.uk/government/publications/bailiffs-and-enforcement-agents-national-standards Have they yet had any formal reply to the letter you typed? If CDER return then a firm line should be taken including making it crystal clear that the person they're approaching knows of the above legislation and will not hesitate to push a complaint all the way to the Judge who certifies the agents. There's loads of stuff on the web about dealing with bailiffs. CA has a page for starters here: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/action-your-creditor-can-take/bailiffs/ Don't let them over your threshold. Maybe worth moving your own cars, and any that might link to your home a street or two away. The two police forces trying to palm it off on the other gave me a wry grin. All but 40 years ago I worked in an office looking after money under the control of the courts. A lot in damages claims where, after due process, monies were sent out by cheque. We had an epidemic of cheque thefts, probably dud posties at West Central District Office which were then encashed around the country. I had a hell of a game getting police in Newcastle, where one particular cheque was cashed, to acceptthe offence was on their ground and not that of the Met. |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 09:23
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - bathtub tom
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I've had similar with this house I moved into a couple of years ago. The previous occupant died and someone's got his old car, taxed, insured and MOT'd. Had piles of letters from TFL, DART charge and debt collection agencies. Finally a couple of bailiffs turned up and we could prove to them we weren't the deceased. Then a letter arrived from McDonalds, Gatwick airport and through the window I could see a registration number. It didn't take long to deal with DVLA, who accepted the vehicle was nothing to do with me, removed this address from their records for that vehicle and issued a letter confirming that. We've not received anything since. I thought it may affect my credit score (I don't have any), but a check showed it's near perfect. SWMBO's indignant as to why it's not 100%! If anyone knows who's using a beige Nissan Note KN10 RSY, there's a lot of folk would appreciate the information! |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 10:42
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Fullchat
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"Have they yet had any formal reply to the letter you typed?" Not as yet maybe a bit early. |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 13:05
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Terry
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It is evident that the police put little effort into motoring offences which could otherwise be easily identified through ANPR - no tax, no insurance, no MOT. Example - there are estimated over 1m cars without insurance. Last year there were ~100k prosecutions for no insurance - 10%. Those that are prosecuted may often arise due to other events - eg: accident, dangerous driving. Sanctions applied to those who offend may be inadequate to deter - eg: high costs of insurance for young or accident prone drivers makes no insurance an unavoidable acceptable risk. The first time it is evident that a car is not properly documented is when debt collection agencies seek to recover unpaid charges. Registering a car with spurious details seems easy. I doubt the validity of the name and address is ever checked. If on the V5 a new owner puts a valid name and address then there is zero probability of detection. IMHO collection agencies should take better care in identifying debtors - the code of conduct and route for complaint does not seem effective. An alternative should be a direct financial penalty if they incorrectly pursue spurious debts or innocent individuals. |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 16:18
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Ted
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I have always had an interest in vehicle registrations since a spell in the force information room where I was responsible, amongst other things, for checking patrol enqurys about vehicles possibly stolen or of interest in other ways. I had a simple card index and sometimes , in the middle of the night, had to walk down to the Local Taxation office to check an owner after a crime or hit and run. Having a suspicious mind, it occurs to me that the DVLA have made a big mistake in revealing whether vehicles have valid tax/mot/insurance to all and sundry. You own a black Micra, as we do, Scan EBay for black Micras of a similar year for sale and note reg numbers. Check a few weeks later with DVLA and if vehicle is now legal, order a set of plates off the web.I ordered new plates for the Jowett last year and there was no check. Drive and park carefully and within the law and you can drive as long as DVLA confirms legitimately for road use. ANPR no problem and few police patrols on the road now, sadly. Not suggesting we all rush out and do it, in my case I'd lose the cherished number but I'll hazard a guess that a large chunk of the criminal world twigged onto this a long time ago ! Ted |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 20:40
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - zippy
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>>CEOs We didn't know the previous owner of our house had several failed companies. We were visited by several CEOs trying to get access. Wouldn't take electronic docs as evidence had to be originally printed bills - who has those and even claimed we could have changed names on accounts, drivers licences etc. Absolutely s**m. One got in to the back garden and was found trying the bifold door to the kitchen which was unlocked. He claimed the gate was open- absolute cock was it. Neighbour saw him scramble over and alerted us. He claimed now he had access we couldn't stop him. Neighbour- previously mentioned now deceased ex drugs grower and ex policeman told him he would get done for being found on enclosed premises if he didn't leave right away and a man with him flashed what looked like a warrant card. Shame he's gone, he was a character much like the neighbour the other side who recently died as was the one 2 doors down. |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 20:55
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - bathtub tom
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| Fortunately the folk that do it aren't the sharpest knives in the block. Like the one that cloned his mate's motorcycle plate and was pulled when his mate reported his 'bike stolen. The one that cloned his mate's van plate and then went and parked next to him where a BIB spotted them. |
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Wed 28 Aug 24 22:34
ULEZ - Unpaid fines. - Bromptonaut
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Think I related it here at the time but.. In a volunteer adviser role on the phone I was called by a woman whose car had been clamped by a CEO. She was a peripatetic care worker and needed the car to do her job. The money owed was her son's; he'd not paid a fine for some low level criminal stuff. Not his car and, pretty clearly, he'd no legal or beneficial interest in it. I rang CEO who told me the V5 with her name on 'wasn't worth the paper it was written on'. To convince him she needed the purchase invoice which, needless to say for a sub £1500 car in 2016 bought four years earlier for cash, she couldn't produce. After a discussion, at two bites of the cherry, about the legislation etc he returned and unclamped it. Transparently obvious he hoped Mum has a credit card and would use it to make the problem go away. I know these people have a job to do but just speaking on the phone leaves me needing to wash my hands. |
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