Motoring Discussion > Pay Per Mile Miscellaneous
Thread Author: zippy Replies: 20
View Threaded 

 Fri 2 Aug 24 17:21 
 Pay Per Mile - zippy
evpowered.co.uk/news/labour-urged-to-consider-pay-per-mile-road-tax-to-cover-fiscal-shortfall/

If it were a reasonable charge -say a penny a mile and all of the money went on road improvements then this would be a great idea. We could have proper roads without silly bottlenecks like the one on the A27 at Arundel that was set to be fixed and is now cancelled.

Of course the money wouldn't be ringfenced so the govt. just may as well put a penny or two in income tax and be honest about it.

And the old ruse of saying that drivers should pay for road use is worn. Even people that don't use roads, do - how else are deliveries of services to everyone made - over road, rail and other infrastructure paid for through taxation.

The RAC says 331billion miles are driven annually in the UK. That would be a tax revenue of £3.3billion - I'd want roads with no potholes, no bottlenecks and by-passes everywhere.

And make the foreign lorries & visitors pay by taking their odometer reading on arrival and taxing them when they leave.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Fri 2 Aug 24 18:06 
 Pay Per Mile - Bromptonaut
A significant amount for the first mile or perhaps two then a few pennies per mile.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Fri 2 Aug 24 18:13 
 Pay Per Mile - zippy
>> A significant amount for the first mile or perhaps two then a few pennies per
>> mile.
>>

Not for every trip or it would kill delivery drivers - perhaps 1 larger charge per day then an small amount per mile?
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Fri 2 Aug 24 18:31 
 Pay Per Mile - Bromptonaut
I assume delivery drivers would count their 'round' as one trip and the system would recognise that as a charcterisation of their role.

I'm thinking about like a few minutes ago when we realised something we needed was missed from the supermarket shop Mrs B did. Local shop down the road would have it.

Could easily walk or bike the quarter mile to the village shop but without being incentivised it was easier to jump back in the car and drive.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Fri 2 Aug 24 21:46 
 Pay Per Mile - CGNorwich
Sound good in theory but the cost of implementation and the ease of avoidance make it practically impossible to implement, That is why no country in the world has such a scheme unless you include toll roads limited to major highways,
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 00:36 
 Pay Per Mile - Bromptonaut
>> Sound good in theory but the cost of implementation and the ease of avoidance make
>> it practically impossible to implement,

How much cost and difficulty to implement?

Son, as a newish car owner ten years ago had a black box for his insurance. If a similar device using GPS and mobile phone technology were required to own and register/tax a vehicle how would it be so easy to avoid?
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 07:21 
 Pay Per Mile - Falkirk Bairn
"Faraday cage" bag (I keep my car keys in one) or a simple "tin foil hat" around the transmitter would make the car invisible to a satellite.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 08:41 
 Pay Per Mile - tyrednemotional
The technology for tracking is already with us.

The newly installed replacement tracker on my motorhome gives me the full, mapped details of every journey I make (and appears reliable). Its calculated total odometer reading is only fractions of a mile different from that registering in the vehicle.

Policing avoidance is the issue, particularly with aftermarket technology. The only real option I can think of is to repurpose ANPR to check the registered GPS location coincides concurrently with that of the ANPR camera; if not, hefty fine as a deterrent.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 08:55 
 Pay Per Mile - CGNorwich
There are 41 million vehicles in the UK. If suppling an fitting a black box cost £1000 that would be a cost of £41 billion pounds. The boxes would be removable and the cost of policing vehicles to ensure they has a functioning box would be prohibitive.Then you have the problem of collecting the tax. You can’t avoid petrol duty but collecting road mileage charges would be extremely costly.

Like I said superficially attractive but really a non runner.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 10:41 
 Pay Per Mile - Terry
What we are seeing is the start not the end game. Proof of concept, not the final solution.

Recent requirement for new vehicles to be equipped with (currently optional) speed limiters is an example. This adds to things like blind spot warning, automated cruise control, lane keep assist etc all of which are in anticipation of driverless autonomous vehicle.

In 10 years time only EVs will be on sale. In 20 years time just about all vehicles will be electric, and many driverless.

The reservations re charging, policing and retrofit etc will be non-issues in 20 years time. A vehicle will be capable of remote switch off if the system is tampered with, or bills not paid, etc.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 15:00 
 Pay Per Mile - Kevin
>..Then you have the problem of collecting the tax...

You're talking about a UK Govt. IT project here - it would be a coin slot superglued to the dashboard.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 10:59 
 Pay Per Mile - zippy
>> "Faraday cage" bag (I keep my car keys in one) or a simple "tin foil
>> hat" around the transmitter would make the car invisible to a satellite.
>>

Pedantic here: Invisible to a satellite...

The satellites don't track the cars. The device receives a broadcast signal from several satellites and can triangulate it's position. :-D

The Faraday cage, may off course, still have the desired effect but mileage could be cross checked at MOT with it coded to the car's CPU.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 3 Aug 24 at 11:00
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 14:33 
 Pay Per Mile - Falkirk Bairn
Shady businessman with a laptop doing "mileage correction"
£20 for his 10 minute adjustment services before service & MoT
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 15:36 
 Pay Per Mile - Terry
Journey data will be uploaded in real time to a central database.

It will know precisely which journeys, when, and where.

It will have the capability to flex charges on time of day, type of vehicle, type of road, and quite possibly how many occupants.

There will be no issue about non-payment, faraday cages, compliance etc. Without a central tick in the box the vehicle will not move.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 16:15 
 Pay Per Mile - Kevin
>Journey data will be uploaded in real time to a central database.

Running on Windows 3000 protected by Crowdstrike V2.0
Reply to this message | Report message
      1  
 Sat 3 Aug 24 18:35 
 Pay Per Mile - CGNorwich
“Journey data will be uploaded in real time to a central database.“

In thirty years time perhaps. Any such comprehensive, practical, avoidance proof and reliable system is years, probably decades away. The Government needs the money now. No rush as far as I am concerned. I’m quite happy with my electric motoring at less than 2p per mile.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 19:27 
 Pay Per Mile - sooty123
PPM on driving, I'll believe it when I see it.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 19:30 
 Pay Per Mile - Terry
In a general sense the government needs money now.

But if the aspiration is to find a way to replace income lost through reductions in fuel duty as ICE is replaced by EV, this is a transition over the next 20 years. So no immediate hurry.

In 2023/24 fuel duties are expected to raise ~£24bn and VAT ~£10bn for the Treasury. Very crudely this will decline by ~£1.5-2.0bn pa for the next 10 years. In terms of overall public spending this is close to trivial in a single year. but clearly needs addressing longer term.

Assuming perpetual incompetence in government procurement and management of IT systems may be somewhat justified or simply complacency. An effective system is probably better than a flawed inadequate one both from a consumer and government point of view.

Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 3 Aug 24 19:47 
 Pay Per Mile - Falkirk Bairn
BIG earner for the taxman is Road Tax

10 years ago the Civil Service wanted to save £30m in printing & admin costs. Hence no tax discs today.

Th number of untaxed vehicles has rocketed - lost revenue, at £120m, dwarfs the saving on printing

Whatever the Civil Service chooses what are the chances of it working?
Last edited by: Falkirk Bairn on Sat 3 Aug 24 at 19:47
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 4 Aug 24 06:37 
 Pay Per Mile - Bromptonaut
>> Th number of untaxed vehicles has rocketed - lost revenue, at £120m, dwarfs the saving
>> on printing

The usual correlation does not prove causation warning applies.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 4 Aug 24 07:59 
 Pay Per Mile - Falkirk Bairn
Maybe a strong correlation?

Out of date / No Tax disc in window was instant ticket by traffic wardens & the Police.
A daily reminder to the owner when the tax is due to the law abiding and others.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
Latest Forum Posts
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 23:03
Non-motoring
by zippy
Volunteering Almost Impossible
>> Do the police really call seniors guv and ma'am? ...
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 22:57
Non-motoring
by smokie
Volunteering Almost Impossible
Do the police really call seniors guv and ma'am?
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 22:23
Non-motoring
by Fullchat
Premium Bonds - Lucky So and So
I thought the Brooklands Capri was a sure bet. Clearly ...
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 22:05
Non-motoring
by Kevin
Trump Vol 2
>I expect it's basically safe although there are experts who ...
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 21:42
Non-motoring
by R.P.
Volunteering Almost Impossible
I volunteered at the local theatre when I lived on ...
Tue, 8 Apr 2025 21:33
Non-motoring
by R.P.
Premium Bonds - Lucky So and So
My riding buddy's friend won a BMW R1300GS with a ...