Motoring Discussion > Lenient sentencing Legal Questions
Thread Author: legacylad Replies: 13
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New Thu 20 Jul 23 08:15 
 Lenient sentencing - legacylad
Anyone else read the tragic case in the news recently about the driver filming himself at speeds of up to 123mph before crashing, killing a young mother, her unborn child, leaving two other children in the broken down vehicle in a coma with an uncertain future ?

Previously driving without insurance in 2019 and only two months previous stopped by the police for racing.
Apparently the maximum sentence is now life imprisonment. He got 12 years. Will he serve the full term ?
The distress caused is simply too awful to imagine.

In my world he’s forfeited his right to breath and I cannot put in words what I’d like to do to him. Such a truly awful case.

The family’s solicitor described the sentence as ‘insulting’.
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New Thu 20 Jul 23 10:00 
 Lenient sentencing - Bromptonaut
Cool and factual head on....

Guidelines for Death by Dangerous:

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/causing-death-by-dangerous-driving/

For the most serious offences the guideline is 8-18 years custody with a starting point of 12. Without seeing exactly what the Judge said at sentence we don't know how 12 was arrived at.

Defendant pleaded guilty, for which presumably a reduction will apply. No other apparent mitigation and plenty of aggravation - phone, fooling about etc.

Could, and perhaps should, have been longer but I doubt it's so far off beam as to raise any prospect of a successful review for excessive leniency.

Again unclear, without sight of remarks, how long he'll serve but my guess is that it'll be two thirds rather than half.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 20 Jul 23 at 10:01
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 08:11 
 Lenient sentencing - legacylad

>> Defendant pleaded guilty, for which presumably a reduction will apply. No other apparent mitigation and
>> plenty of aggravation - phone, fooling about etc.

>> Again unclear, without sight of remarks, how long he'll serve but my guess is that
>> it'll be two thirds rather than half.

What I can never understand is getting a reduced sentence by pleading guilty, when you obviously are. So often you hear of the defendant changing their plea at the last minute...presumably advised by their legal representative in order to get a reduced sentence.

In Legacylad Land anyone pleading not guilty, then found to be guilty, would have a 30%+ increase in the sentence.
Vote for me !
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 09:33 
 Lenient sentencing - Bromptonaut
>> What I can never understand is getting a reduced sentence by pleading guilty, when you
>> obviously are. So often you hear of the defendant changing their plea at the last
>> minute...presumably advised by their legal representative in order to get a reduced sentence.

AIUI if you faff the system and only go NG at trail the discount, if one is applied at all, will be very small indeed. If you put your hand up from the get go then you'll get something, probably quite a bit, off the eventual sentence.

If it keeps the courts moving and helps reduce the ridiculous numbers already in our prisons.

In practice there's a whole matrix of factors which high increase or reduce the sentence.
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 15:08 
 Lenient sentencing - zippy
>> In Legacylad Land anyone pleading not guilty, then found to be guilty, would have a
>> 30%+ increase in the sentence.
>> Vote for me !
>>

Unfortunately that will lead to innocent people, found guilty doing more time.

That's what happens in the USA which has a plea bargain system. The sentences are so long that people will plea-bargain even if innocent to avoid the risk of life long sentences, even if innocent.
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 15:20 
 Lenient sentencing - Bromptonaut
>> That's what happens in the USA which has a plea bargain system. The sentences are
>> so long that people will plea-bargain even if innocent to avoid the risk of life
>> long sentences, even if innocent.

Similar issues with the Post Office scandal. People were incentivised to go for less serious offences to avoid conviction for theft.
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New Thu 20 Jul 23 10:10 
 Lenient sentencing - VxFan
>> Anyone else read the tragic case in the news recently about the driver filming himself
>> at speeds of up to 123mph before crashing, killing a young mother, her unborn child,
>> leaving two other children in the broken down vehicle in a coma with an uncertain
>> future ?

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/wannabe-big-man-boy-racer-27354496

>> my guess is that it'll be two thirds rather than half.

That's what it also says in the above article.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 20 Jul 23 at 10:19
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New Thu 20 Jul 23 13:06 
 Lenient sentencing - zippy
Tragic!
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 09:12 
 Lenient sentencing - Falkirk Bairn
Prisons are full - unless you have an extensive list of previous convictions or the case is very very serious the chances of doing porridge is modest.

24 year old was convicted in Scotland of a serious sexual offences and got community services as, at the time of the offences, he was a teenager!
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New Fri 21 Jul 23 09:39 
 Lenient sentencing - Bromptonaut
>> 24 year old was convicted in Scotland of a serious sexual offences and got community
>> services as, at the time of the offences, he was a teenager!

I'd love to know the full facts around that one including exactly what happened with the victim and whether they knew each other beforehand.

He pleaded NG but was convicted by a Jury meaning the victim had the trauma of giving evidence/cross examination. Yet the Judge at sentence seemed not to refer to that.

Something doesn't add up and it's not just Scotland's regime for young offenders.

The PF has appealed for leniency - maybe when that's heard we'll get a better account - or indeed some account.
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New Sun 23 Jul 23 23:27 
 Lenient sentencing - Fursty Ferret
It’s pretty routine (the speeding, not the crashing). Anyone who hits the M1 late evening just north of Birmingham gets a good view because there are no speed cameras nor any traffic police in Leicestershire, and the chief constable was dozy enough to publicly admit to it.

The drivers call themselves “whips of Birmingham” or “super cars of Yorkshire” on YouTube and it’s vaguely enlightening to see just how awful their driving is. I think the same thing happened 20 years ago but cheap cars tended to max out at about 90, not 155.

I occasionally grab a dash cam video as two or three go past me but have never had a response from the police after submitting them other than “no further action taken”.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Sun 23 Jul 23 at 23:28
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New Mon 24 Jul 23 08:08 
 Lenient sentencing - legacylad
Talking of getting a response...if you submit a photo of ‘ bad parking’ ...I mean really poor parking, on pelican crossing zig zags for 10 minutes whilst waiting for your takeaway, would the authority likely prosecute ?
And if so should you expect a response ?

Friends of mine are keen cyclists, two of them are retired Fire engine drivers. They submitted video of almost being knocked off their bikes and heard nothing in return.

On the other hand, someone I know was recently prosecuted for driving too close to a cyclist...think he got a £90 fine and had to attend a course in lieu of points.

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New Mon 24 Jul 23 13:47 
 Lenient sentencing - Boxsterboy
There was a case reported today about a drunk-driver up in front of the magistrates (1.5 x over drink-drive limit) who got a discharge because they were taking their friend (who had been beaten up outside a nightclub) to hospital!! FFS, if you're drunk and have to use a car, you call a taxi. Or if the friend was genuinely injured, call an ambulance
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New Mon 24 Jul 23 14:46 
 Lenient sentencing - Bromptonaut
>> There was a case reported today about a drunk-driver up in front of the magistrates
>> (1.5 x over drink-drive limit) who got a discharge because they were taking their friend
>> (who had been beaten up outside a nightclub) to hospital!!

There is, AIUI, a get out from the mandatory ban in certain very exceptional circumstances including medical emergencies. The bar is, intentionally, set very high. It would be interesting to know, in more detail what the facts were here.

Wait time for an ambulance might be one that could have been run.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 24 Jul 23 at 14:47
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