Motoring Discussion > England's Roads/Traffic	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: tyrednemotional	Replies: 50

Sat 1 Jul 23 16:42   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

I've just spent a few days down in Sussex, visiting friends and generally exploring SWMBO's roots. The journey down wasn't too bad, with the expected exception of the Dartford Crossing (which in itself was better than it sometimes is). The journey back today was somewhat different. The A26 (Which is a primary route) was closed both ways on Thursday morning early due to an accident (fairly quickly cleared) and a separate diesel spill. For the latter, the road requires resurfacing, and is not scheduled for re-opening until Monday!! The rural diversionary routes are less than satisfactory, though we researched the convoluted route the long-distance buses were using, and managed to get the motorhome through satisfactorily. (The bus, by the way is not serving a significant part of it's normal route for the duration). The A21 Northbound then had major delays. It would appear that there is a strict speed limit protecting the carriageway works Southbound, which was completely closed and no contraflow. Next, the usual delays at Dartford; well, slightly longer than expected for a Saturday lunchtime. ...and, then, dire warning of 90 minute delays on the M11 around J8 (which still seems to be a thing as I type). So, diversion via the A1 and a long crawl round the M25 under long 30/40mph limits (for no apparent reason). Then past Welwyn and Stevenage and then every subsequent roundabout on the A1 had major congestion (presumably as a result of people abandoning the M11). There's also a long stretch of the A1 with a 40 limit on it for "safety" reasons that has been there for months with no sign of work (the barriers were replaced ages ago and are OK). So, a long drive back and significant diversion. It would be alright if it weren't for the fact that it is becoming a regular occurrence. Coming back from the NE a couple of weeks ago the A1 was shut for investigation for best part of a day. Viable diversionary routes had major roadworks, and there were at least two other accidents causing problems. Erstwhile straightforward journeys are now regularly becoming a problem. (I appreciate that accidents are difficult to plan for, but it really does seem to be significantly more difficult to get a simple journey nowadays). Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 16:48   England's Roads/Traffic - sooty123

I think we've got some of the lowest proportion of mways/a roads in Europe. No surprise even a very small disruption has a big knock on. It'd help on the A1 if they did what they did at the a57/Finningley/ etc and convert to flyovers. Black cat would be a good place to start, i used that recently a bit. Seemed always backed up. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 1 Jul 23 at 16:49 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 17:33   England's Roads/Traffic - smokie

Wasn't there something a while back that many accidents have to be properly investigated in case they are a crime scene this the roads are closed longer. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 17:48   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

...the A1 closure in the NE I mentioned was one such. A Golf being chased by the Police came off a bridge and hit a lorry. Serious injuries and IOPC involved. I don't have much of an issue with closures for such reasons, I just don't enjoy having multiple occurrences every journey, and repeated diversions off otherwise viable diversionary routes. I also cant understand why it would take 4-5 days to resurface a primary road following a diesel spill - they manage to resurface motorways after incidents much quicker, and doing one lane (the less-affected - it's single carriageway) and implementing traffic control would seem not to have been considered. Hey ho; it's only me venting my spleen at a journey taking almost twice as long as it should have done. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 23:54   England's Roads/Traffic - zippy

>> Wasn't there something a while back that many accidents have to be properly investigated in >> case they are a crime scene this the roads are closed longer. >> Accidents aren't accidents - they are supposed to be someone's fault - according to the dogma. I guess there are two types of crime - the careless, unmaintained vehicle type of crime or speeding for example. And one that happened near where I live; there was an RTA in a quiet sea side town and a pedestrian was killed. The driver was looking to get a something like 5 years if found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. Then it transpired that the deceased owed money to the boss of the driver - turned in to a murder investigation. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 5 Jul 23 10:07   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

>> Accidents aren't accidents - they are supposed to be someone's fault - according to the >> dogma. There is no such thing now as an RTA, Road Traffic "Accident". They are all now officially Road Traffic "Collisions". Just to make sure that everyone is aware that blame *has* to be found, apportioned and punishment administered. Pity that dogma does not extend to the rest of crime investigation. Theft, Burglary etc is just a shrug, stuff that happens. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 17:58   England's Roads/Traffic - bathtub tom

>> Black cat would be a good place to start They're trying to, but objections from NIMBYs are repeatedly holding it up. They want to dual the A421 from Milton Keynes to Cambridge all the way, via the Black Cat with a 'grade Separation' (flyover to you and me). Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 18:25   England's Roads/Traffic - sooty123

>> >> Black cat would be a good place to start >> >> They're trying to, but objections from NIMBYs are repeatedly holding it up. I would have thought it'd be a plus, far less standing traffic. I can't remember the name of the closest village, wyboston is it? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 18:39   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

>> I would have thought it'd be a plus, far less standing traffic. I can't remember >> the name of the closest village, wyboston is it? Between Wyboston and Tempsford. I do the black cat about 4 times a month - 2 returns. M1, A421, A1. Interesting pub nearby, was called the Anchor Hotel, now its called "The Vanilla Alternative". Which as far as I have been told, is a "private swingers club" Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 18:45   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

I am currently near Norwich, I have to haul the van back home late Sunday afternoon Journey should take approx 3 hours. In no part thanks to roadworks on the A11 which seem to have been there for years, M11, and of course M25, It is likely to be more like 5, Last edited by: Zero on Sat 1 Jul 23 at 18:46 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 20:21   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

>> I am currently near Norwich, I have to haul the van back home late Sunday >> afternoon >> >> Journey should take approx 3 hours. In no part thanks to roadworks on the A11 >> which seem to have been there for years, M11, and of course M25, It is >> likely to be more like 5, 4.5 hours. Norfuk, Suffuk and Essex was a breeze. Herts hurt tho. M25 closed at J17, that Google maps didn't warn me about till J23 Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 1 Jul 23 19:31   England's Roads/Traffic - sooty123

>> >> >> I would have thought it'd be a plus, far less standing traffic. I can't >> remember >> >> the name of the closest village, wyboston is it? >> >> Between Wyboston and Tempsford. >> >> That reminds me, i visited Gibraltar farm near Tempsford village. Interesting to have a look at, not open to the public though, the family is a bit eccentric. Anyone could probably find it and have a look round though. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 08:40   England's Roads/Traffic - martin aston

Jams and delays are made worse by poor overhead signage. We’ve all sat in motorway jams without prior warning and sailed through when problems are predicted. You see lengthy jams on the opposite carriageway but nothing to stop traffic being caught up in it by warning at the previous junctions. I know that actively diverting traffic off the motorway would in part just move the jams to A roads but at least they offer some prospect of escape. Too much road management is about speeding and fines rather than meeting the needs of the paying public. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 09:00   England's Roads/Traffic - CGNorwich

>> Jams and delays are made worse by poor overhead signage. We’ve all sat in >> on the opposite carriageway but nothing to stop traffic being caught up in it by >> warning at the previous junctions. Simple solution. Switch on Google Maps. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 09:20   England's Roads/Traffic - Duncan

Doesn't Waze do the same thing, but with more messages? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sun 2 Jul 23 09:27   England's Roads/Traffic - CGNorwich

Yes as does the much improved Apple Maps.VW’s inbuilt navigation is pretty good too as I am sure other makes systems are. All will give you a heads up on congestion ahead. Even if you know the route it pays to have the Sat Nav on. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 10:54   England's Roads/Traffic - martin aston

The inbuilt Nav in my 2018 Golf is untrustworthy. Maybe you’ve had a better experience but online forums are full of stories about how poor they are. They recommend, for example, crazy long detours on regular routes irrespective of traffic conditions. I have used online traffic services as a passenger but my screen and the icons are too small for me to feel safe reading them as the driver. It would be interesting to know of a driver user friendly one. Should have gone to Specsavers maybe. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 11:19   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

I find a mix of having Google maps running, what info there is on Motorway gantries and radio traffic news gives me a decent degree of situational awareness. For example coming back from Scotland last month we were somewhere around Morecambe Bay when the ETA turned red and was two hours later than we'd expect. Turned out the M1 was closed around Corley due a major RTC. Alternative routes were available via the M42/M40 or A/M45. In fact though, by the time it mattered the jam had cleared. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 20:18   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

>> Simple solution. Switch on Google Maps. Not so simple, Waze and GM use the same traffic data, so everyone takes the diversionary route. Its sometime better to ignore it. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 2 Jul 23 23:52   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> Not so simple, Waze and GM use the same traffic data, so everyone takes the >> diversionary route. Its sometime better to ignore it. Yup, needs some thought etc. If the M1 is jiggered round here the A5, being pretty much parallel, soon log jams. Other roads like the A428, to the east of it, less so. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 08:43   England's Roads/Traffic - CGNorwich

True but the issue highlighted was knowing about possible congestion ahead. GM will let you know about that. Whether you choose to follow the recommended diversion, carry on or find your own route is up to you of course but GM give you the options. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 09:42   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

And when towing a van, you need to be careful about the suggested diversions, they can sometimes get - errrrr - "interesting" Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 10:24   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

...indeed! Reference my initial post on the A26 being closed for 4 days (it appears to have been re-opened this morning). It was closed (Northbound) just after a junction at Eridge station. Much of the trunk traffic that was unaware of the closure was attempting to use this road here: goo.gl/maps/eP6inroHwpVJG2m18 ...and meeting an (admittedly smaller) amount of traffic attempting it Southbound. It was absolute chaos. (Having abandoned a trip to Lewes on the Thursday due to non-arrival of the bus, we walked past the gridlock). Luckily, we discovered a bus tracker on the bus website the next day, and were able to check the somewhat convoluted diversionary route they were taking, and had a relatively stress-free departure. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 10:33   England's Roads/Traffic - Zero

>> Luckily, we discovered a bus tracker on the bus website the next day, and were >> able to check the somewhat convoluted diversionary route they were taking, and had a relatively >> stress-free departure. Good ploy, but not always foolproof. This near me is a bus route. tinyurl.com/mwf6t4n3 - link to Google Maps Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 3 Jul 23 at 10:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 22:37   England's Roads/Traffic - bathtub tom

>> Good ploy, but not always foolproof. This near me is a bus route. >> tinyurl.com/mwf6t4n3 - link to Google Maps That's nothing, you should ride the bus down from The Great Orme to LLandudno (I injured my knee at the top and my English bus pass meant I had to pay). The way the driver has to weave the way through parked cars on the narrow road is a wonder to behold. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 22:52   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> The way the driver has to weave the way through parked cars on the >> narrow road is a wonder to behold. Similar with the Borrowdale Bus around the road below Catbells around Hawes End. Too many drivers think nothing bigger than their Beemer needs to get by. Same round my road when the wee 'uns are doing rugby stuff. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 08:33   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

>> >> Similar with the Borrowdale Bus around the road below Catbells around Hawes End. >> Much/all of that road is double-yellow lined. Visiting (stayed at Manesty) post lock-down we cycled it. Cars (or rather more correctly drivers) are wont to squeeze onto any part of the verge that looks just about wide enough to park, and the roadside was chock-a-block. The great majority had been ticketed (since parking on the verge (which constitutes part of the highway) behind yellow lines is an offence. Quite a few unhappy people. Similar enforcement takes place at Sherwood Forest. It's generally a pain negotiating that road at Grange in Borrowdale at the point where parking restrictions end. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 08:22   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

>>The way the driver has to weave the way through parked cars on the narrow road is a wonder to behold. ...a couple of weeks ago we had to abandon a bus that couldn't negotiate a residential road with cars parked both sides. A regular bus route that you might have got a supermini down on the day, but not a chance of anything bigger. The driver sounded his horn multiple times, and then knocked on the doors both sides to no avail. As we only had another couple of stops to travel, we left him taking pictures on the mobile and 'phoning the police/council (it apparently was a reasonably regular occurrence). Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 4 Jul 23 at 08:22 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 09:03   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> A regular bus route that you might have >> got a supermini down on the day, but not a chance of anything bigger. Not a bus route but our Close is accessed via a road the also provides access to the Sports/Community Centre and local clubs for both football and rugby with multiple pitches. An ordinary Sunday just sees boys (mostly) of various pre-teen age groups playing/training rugby. On about four occasions in the year they host ongoing competitions with other clubs. People park on the verges, both sides of the road with wheels on the pavements and generally anywhere they can. No way would an Ambulance or Fire Appliance get down there. It can take ten minutes to get half a mile towards the village centre in an ordinary car. Any public concern is disdained with reference to incomers, townees etc and fact the Club was there first. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 09:31   England's Roads/Traffic - smokie

Plod knocked on Sunday - wrong address - they actually wanted to speak to our next door neighbour, but not the one in the photo, who's house they'd parked outside, on a corner and on the pavement. drive.google.com/file/d/1DdG03ok8EOQ2SZfei5zbZlWnAYI_HqEk/view?usp=sharing EDIT: It was there for a good 15 minutes and there was plenty of parking in the road. Last edited by: smokie on Tue 4 Jul 23 at 09:33 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 17:04   England's Roads/Traffic - Fursty Ferret

I've been trucking up and down the M1 since the start of Covid and it's definitely got worse. Much higher volume of traffic coupled with increasingly aggressive driving. Just from observation it now seems routine to try to bully cars out of the way by tailgating; middle-lane hogging is as bad as I've ever seen it, and cars seem to be breaking down all the time and blocking lanes of motorways without hard shoulders. Vast numbers of people are on their phones. If they bothered to get a phone holder drivers frequently have video playing at eye-level, and if they didn't then they're invariably texting. Pointing the finger at van drivers specifically. I don't know why they're so bad. Maybe it's a culture thing. I'm convinced that nearly all accidents on the motorway are caused by aggressive driving with a side order of phone use. I think it's about time that using a phone while driving should result in the same punishment as drink-driving. Special mention goes to the A1M roadworks near Doncaster, which are appallingly managed, rarely manned, and suffer from men with small penises attempting to enforce the queue by blocking lane 2 more than a mile before the merge point. Also shout-out to Highways England, who seem to set the variable speed limit by spinning a roulette wheel. This has actually got dramatically worse over a short period ("do I slow to match the 30mph on the sign on a quiet road and accept that the HGV driver behind is probably going to hit me, or roll though it at 60 and accept that if the camera is active I'll almost certainly lose my licence?") Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Mon 3 Jul 23 at 17:05 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 3 Jul 23 17:25   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

>> >> Special mention goes to the A1M roadworks near Doncaster..... >> ...I'm assuming Darrington, which is indeed currently a pain both North and South. Though the A1 is normally much more convenient, (9 miles due North and I'm on it) I've been using either the M1 or the M18/A19 via Selby to avoid that depending on ultimate destination. At least we usually manage to keep moving. (TBH, at its worst, A19 through Doncaster is more attractive, which is saying something!). Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 10:21   England's Roads/Traffic - Manatee

Don't know what it is with the A1. There is a 40 limit for several miles south of Stamford at the moment, for no apparent reason. Why are British motorway surfaces so noisy compared with just about everybody else's? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 10:41   England's Roads/Traffic - Duncan

>> Why are British motorway surfaces so noisy compared with just about everybody else's? >> Concrete? Try the M25 J9/10. You would swear that you had a flat tyre. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 10:58   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> Try the M25 J9/10. You would swear that you had a flat tyre. Not sure if it was that actual section but I pulled off onto the hard shoulder on a concrete surfaced bit of the M25 because I was concerned that either car or caravan had a flat. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 11:00   England's Roads/Traffic - sooty123

The M54 is like that as well, iirc its all concrete type stuff. Not quiet. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 11:13   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

Sections of the A50 too. If you're travelling between Chester and the A5 via the A483 it changes from concrete to tarmac as you enter Wales. One of the benefits of devolution. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 10:43   England's Roads/Traffic - Bobby

So that Runfer can listen to the sound…… Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 11:22   England's Roads/Traffic - Bobby

Many years ago when I was a kid, there was a section of the M74 just after Hamilton that was concrete. Used to love the noise it made because it meant that we were going our holidays if we were travelling that stretch of road! Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 22:23   England's Roads/Traffic - Duncan

The bit of the M25 that is so noisy is not just because it's concrete. There are expansion joints every 3 or 4 metres which make a clonky clonk noise very remniscant of a flat tyre. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 22:34   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> The bit of the M25 that is so noisy is not just because it's concrete. >> There are expansion joints every 3 or 4 metres which make a clonky clonk noise >> very remniscant of a flat tyre. Yep, that's the place. Maybe noisier when very warm due to stuff in in the expansion joints presenting a raised 'bump'. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 11:29   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

>> >> Why are British motorway surfaces so noisy compared with just about everybody else's? >> ...in thedim, distant past, I read a reply to a query as to why MPG seemed to improve driving on the Continent. A number of theories were put forward, but one was that the tarmac specification for UK roads was somewhat different, and resulted in more rolling resistance. It would have been another "OK, shrug" apart from the fact that links were provided to the relevant different standards. That could certainly account for a difference in road surface noise as well. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 11:45   England's Roads/Traffic - bathtub tom

There used to be a section of the A34 between Oxford and Bicester that was concrete and IIRC it was grooved, presumably to assist drainage. That was NOISY! Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 12:38   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> That could certainly account for a difference in road surface noise as well. I'd say that on the whole road noise on French Autoroutes is better than our Motorways. A few, well probably 20+, years ago there was a sign on the Shap section of the M6 just after Penrith saying they were using an experimental surface. That was very quiet too. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 21:09   England's Roads/Traffic - Rudedog

Weren't they supposed to be chopping up recycled car tyres and adding them to the road surface (can we still call it Tarmac?), I thought there were mixtures that helped drain off water so were in theory 'safer'. Totally that driving I France is a god send.... Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 4 Jul 23 22:56   England's Roads/Traffic - Terry

I would guess selection of road surface material is a compromise between water drainage, skid resistance, wear rate, and cost, the consequence of which is variable road noise. I have also noticed that the noise from the tyres varies independent of the road surface depending on how worn they are. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 5 Jul 23 09:08   England's Roads/Traffic - CGNorwich

There are still many stretches of concrete roads in the U.K. Concrete is much noisier than Tarmac. It has its advantages in that it is harder wearing and replacement time is therefore greater. Not so much used now and as in the Wymondham by pass on the A11 being replaced with tarmac Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 19 Jul 23 10:44   England's Roads/Traffic - tyrednemotional

...having originally posted this, I thought that, after yesterday's experience, I'd better add some balance. Once a year, the motorhome has to go back to the supplying dealer for a short (but chargeable) inspection to keep the water-ingress warranty valid. (Motorcaravans being a "cottage industry" means that under many circumstances only the supplying dealer will do this and underwrite warranty work - this is one of those). The trip for that is a 400-mile round one, and since they prefer easy access to the internals, it isn't easy to load up and incorporate it in a trip. The inconvenience and cost was factored into the original deal - the (rare-ish) 'van I wanted at the price I wanted - and my time is now my own...it is a bit of a pain though. So, round trip from Notts to Somerset yesterday, in a 3.5 tonne brick. I don't particularly like the M42, or the upper reaches of the M5, so my preference is to use the M69 and A46 for the cross-country part. It took me under 4 hours for the downward trip, slowing slightly towards the end as I was ahead of time, and, apart from a single comfort break, I don't think I stopped rolling all the way (careful approaches to traffic lights and roundabouts, of which there are quite a few, meant that I never came to a complete stop!). I did start before 04:00 though ;-) The (large) dealer is a bit iffy about doing any work with a same-day turnaround, but have been pretty good with me given the circumstances, and they had it ready for return within 2 hours. (With a tracker fitted, I could see that it had moved to the workshops fairly quickly). Accordingly, I returned home not long after 10:30 expecting a rather more prolonged journey. Once again, with a quick stop for a snack, it took me somewhat less than 4 hours, though without deliberately dawdling this time, and with a few (but less than expected) complete stops. Whilst I'm still a bit knackered this morning, that's about the best it could be, and it was the last such occurrence as the warranty that depends on the inspection expires (with no renewal) next year. The 'van is (only slightly) optimistic in its displayed fuel consumption figures, but it completed the round journey at an indicated 36.1mpg, which reflects the uninterrupted nature of progression. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 19 Jul 23 15:09   England's Roads/Traffic - Boxsterboy

>> >> That could certainly account for a difference in road surface noise as well. >> >> I'd say that on the whole road noise on French Autoroutes is better than our >> Motorways. >> I would go further than that. I would say the worst bit of French autoroute is better than the best bit of UK motorway! They are quiet, drain well but most important of all are smooth with potholes (virtually) unheard of. Hold-ups are very rare (in my experience) and journey times are far more reliable as a result. Of course the French autoroutes are privatised and you pay (quite handsomely) to use them. However I get the feeling that if we were to privatise our motorways, the standards would be no better but shareholders would do very well out of road-toll dividends! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 19 Jul 23 17:09   England's Roads/Traffic - Bromptonaut

>> I would go further than that. I would say the worst bit of French autoroute >> is better than the best bit of UK motorway! They are quiet, drain well but >> most important of all are smooth with potholes (virtually) unheard of. Hold-ups are very rare >> (in my experience) and journey times are far more reliable as a result. France has roughly the same population as the UK but a lot more space. Main cities Paris, Marseille, Lyon etc are spread out. Ours have the M4 and M1/6 (plus M40) corridors full of folks doing stuff in a day. Result is much less congestion over their busy sections than ours. That said it'll chunks of France will grind to a halt over the Grand Depart for the August holidays. Spent hours on the Bordeaux outer ring c2015. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 19 Jul 23 18:50   England's Roads/Traffic - Terry

Not only is population density much less, they have much more motorway/autoroute - 7400 miles vs 2300 miles. As you say the August holidays are horrible even at 04.00 on routes to the Med, and driving round Paris in the rush hour has much in common with the North/South circular and M25. Reply to this message | Report message