Local cp in Settle has recently had 3 Osprey charging points installed. Whenever I pass there is normally one car hooked up, and out of idle curiosity, I checked the Osprey website and the charge appears to be 79p /KwH.
I’ve just submitted my octopus meter readings...I’d no idea what the tariff is, but apparently it’s 32.72p/kWh on their Flexible Octopus tariff. Half the price of a public charger, so I guess that if you run an EV it’s important to be able to charge at home. Or if you run a ‘semi’ EV which you plug in to provide a limited range, like my pals 25 miles in his Golf GTE.
For you EV users, is 79p/kWh a pretty much standard cost for chargers throughout the UK ? I’ve absolutely no idea how many miles 79p gets you, it must depend on road conditions, temperature, low drag design and a myriad other factors.
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I think the rule of thumb is between about 3 - 4 miles per kWh. Some will consistently hit better figures but often, to me, seem obsessive about their "mpg", though if you are public charging at the rates you mention I suppose I'd be more careful. It is quite variable depending on outside temp, driving style, usage of accessories - but then I think maybe IC cars are but people are less obsessive about what it costs to put the lights on :-)
In the 70p's is about the mark for most public chargers these days AFAIK (I don't use them much myself). I paid 79p in a hotel in Chester a week or so back, which I felt was a bit extortionate as they were only slow chargers. One of the companies put theirs up to 90 something but they have dropped again now. Sometimes in towns you can find public chargers in the 35 - 50 p bracket.
I am currently on an Octopus tariff which gives me 4 hours per night at 7.5p, so a "tankful" (approx 60 kw, say a bit over 200 miles) costs me about £4.50, though my non cheap rate is a bit more expensive than most regular tariffs. The 4 hrs is about enough for me to do 45% charge. Given I don't do that many miles I only charge when it gets ot about 60%, unless I know I need it.
My average whole-house electricity cost over the last month was about 12p a unit for all my electricity, but I did travel a fair bit so lots of cheaper charging. It's usually more like 18p. I obviously do some load shifting into the overnight period (dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer primarily).
My tariff comes to an end on a week or so and I'm looking at either Intelligent Octopus (retaining the 7.5p overnight, but for 6 hours, and with a more expensive day rate - which is mitigated at this time of year by my solar panels) - ) or the Tracker tariff which today is about 19 a unit. I'm tempted to have a punt on the tracker as I think prices will carry on falling for a bit yet. If it goes horribly wrong I can come off with 2 weeks notice, but I can't get back on it for 9 months if I do that.
I've been on Gast tracker since jan - I came off a tariff which was 10.8p and tracker has been as low as 3.5p but is currently around 4.4p, although I am now hardly using any. (Hot water mostly satisfied by diverting excess solar to immersion heater).
Youi did ask... :-)
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 19 Jun 23 at 13:35
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The price cap on domestic electricity is ~32p kwh. Some companies clearly have tariffs which are below this - typically overnight when demand is low.
AFAIK commercial charging sites do not benefit from the price cap and pay ~52p per kwh. To this they need to add VAT at 20% compared with 5% on domestic bill + the cost of providing site infrastructure, maintenance, admin etc.
I have no doubt they make money from providing charging facilities, but not the excessive amounts suggested by a simple comparison of domestic vs commercial charger rates.
It will be interesting to see by how much these rates decline with reducing energy costs - the price cap comes to an end in July.
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Rapid chargers (50+ kW) are 50-75p/kWh up here - you're paying for the convenience of 150+ miles/hour of charging.
AC charging is 0-40p/kWh depending upon where you are, and is what you'd usually need 3-4 hours for a decent fill - in Edinburgh you don't pay for parking at the charge points so I tend to use them instead of domestic charging when I can, or park at the Uni where the chargers are still free.
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Thanks for replies…I found that interesting.
I’m still old skool ICE enthusiast, hankering after a 3.0 flat 6 Targa
When I get lucky with a P Bond.
Dreaming costs nowt
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Would that have a Porsche badge on it per chance?
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"The price cap on domestic electricity is ~32p kwh. Some companies clearly have tariffs which are below this - typically overnight when demand is low."
The price cap only applies to fixed tariffs.
Variable tariffs (e.g. the one I am on and the ones I'm looking at, with cheaper overnight rates) are not covered by the price cap. So e.g. Intelligent Octopus is 7.5p overnight but 41.11p outside the cheap period (in my area)
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ah when you say fixed tariffs you mean where the same charge is applied for the full 24 hours?
As opposed to what the industry calls fixed and variable tariffs?
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"So e.g. Intelligent Octopus is 7.5p overnight but 41.11p outside the cheap period (in my area)"
I was considering moving to Octopus but my energy company OVO has introduced a tariff whereby I get charged 10p per unit for off peak energy when charging the car (they work out when it is cheapest), and the normal 32p rate for all other electricity. That seems a good deal to me.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 24 Jun 23 at 21:27
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Intell Octopus has gone down to about 31p daytime and 7.5p overnight from 1 July. I'm happy, lucky timing of my tariff meant I never went to the highest rates.
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EDF are dropping my 33p per unit to 30p from July. Standing charge still 45p.
Or, they are letting me choose their “new” EV tariff. Six hours of anything at 8p overnight, then 45p a unit the rest of the time.
Doesn’t sound very competitive in light of the other EV tariffs mentioned here, at first sight.
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I understand Octopus are checking EV ownership these days for the EV tariffs.
Intelligent Octopus is 7.5p for six hours per night and of course any other heavy lifting you can do in that tome comes cheap too. The day rate varies by region, as does the standing charge, with the SC in the south being a bit more than yours and the daytime rate being around 30p as far as I can tell.
Intelligent would need a suitable EV or charger. The GO tariff is also an EV only tariff and is 4 hours for a bit more overnight, with the same daytime rate.
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And there is nothing to stop you charging up a storage battery at the cheap rate for use during the day.
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Both Ford and GM recently signed agreements with Tesla to cooperate on charging infrastucture.
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Last week in France I noticed that they have EV charging setup just like petrol pumps at the service stations on the autoroute, maybe about 5-6 bays under a shade/cover with a traditional electronic pricing board giving the cost per unit - they were charging 0.50 €/kWh... no idea if that's good?
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pricing board giving the cost per unit - they were charging
>> 0.50 €/kWh... no idea if that's good?
>>
Earlier today the exchange rate was €1.171, so 43p, which is preferable to Osprey charging 79p per KWh locally.
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Charging has a way to go before it becomes less tiresome. Cos I don't use public charging much I can't tell you first hand, but some are saying that chargers are often out in the open, with not much lighting and (I've seen) nowhere to go while your car is charging if it's wet (sit in the car?).
OTOH I've used a few at Lidls or Tescos around the country, and got in my shopping while the car charged (which tend to be a bit cheaper), motorway services, when needing a comfort break anyway, and once at McDs to remind myself why I dislike burgers. Generally when I stop it's often for not more than about 30 mins and has sometimes been between 5 and 10 mins for a quick "splash and dash".
Route & charging planning is made easier with a myriad of apps available showing chargers (type, occupancy and sometimes cost), but I wouldn't venture out on a long run without some idea of where I was going to stop, plus an alternative.
I gather Shell have announced they are going to put prices and availability on the roadside signs when they have installed them.
There are some pretty good facilities springing up - this was one of the first. www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/electric-forecourt/braintree/
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Its the law in many countries that fuel prices have to be displayed, so you know before you pull off the road, hence always being being displayed in prominent places and big signs. Thee ev adopters are complaining here (Sweden) because its not the case with charging. You have to fanny about with apps, sign up to various schemes that give variable rates depending on time of day, membership levels etc.
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Yeah that's similar here. There's many chargers you can just wave your bank card at but there is still a significant number where you need their app to get it going. I think some of the "membership" ones give discounts at certain times of day (Octopus have their Electroverse card which gives you access to a number of the major brands, a discount on off peak and also charges to your home electricity bill).
Although some would be obsolete now and others not used (e.g for foreign use only) I have 23 different charging company apps and then six or seven location/routing apps on my phone.
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Osprey / Gridserve / Instavolt / Ionity are all con-artists exploiting the lack of broader investment in charging infrastructure while the number of EVs is rising exponentially.
Compare their 80-90p / kWh rate with Tesla, where I filled up yesterday for 26p/kWh at a rate approximately three times faster than Osprey or Instavolt can provide.
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You would like to think that the council who allow for the installation of charging stations would do their homework and only allow suppliers who charge lower KWh rates.
Or maybe that changes constantly ?
Can a Tesla , or any other EV, use any charger, or are they specific to Tesla ?
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In general a Tesla can use any charger. Some Tesla chargers are open to all vehicles but with a slightly higher charge (but still cheaper than the competitors).
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I don't doubt that the rate charged by the majors is over the odds but I suspect that Tesla are subsidising their 26p rate, maybe by making no/little profit on it. Has there been no significant rise in their rates since Jan 2022?
I doubt it's that relevant really but I am likely moving onto Octopus's tracker tariff imminently and their account of the breakdown of the unit cost (as it happens, for today) looks like this
"date": "2023-06-20",
"unit_rate": 20.4015,
"Wholesale cost": 10.31,
"Line loss & shaping": 1.8809076337,
"Social & environmental obligations": 2.658,
"Local distribution": 2.227,
"National transmission": 2.054,
"100% green": 0,
"Admin, financing & margin": 0.3000923663,
"VAT": 0.9715
@LL Tesla were piloting allowing their chargers to be used by other cars and is was possible at 15 sites initially. I think this has now expanded so in theory I could use those Tesla chargers (but of course the delivery speed would max out at something below what a Tesla would, as my car is more limited) but there is currently some sort of software incompatibility preventing it.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 20 Jun 23 at 15:28
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EV charging is at a very early stage. EV currently make up less than 3% of vehicles on the road, but currently contribute 20% of sales. It is likely that EV refuelling makes up something less than 2% of the national refuelling demand as many will charge at home or work.
EV sales growth inevitably puts the charging infrastructure under pressure. This allows more extreme business models by different players - unique apps, charging speed, location dependency, distribution network variations etc etc.
ICE are 97% of vehicles registered and ~98% of refuelling needs. Forecourts (excess capacity) have been closing for the last 20 years. It is a very mature market.
The current outcome. Petrol a and diesel are very price sensitive, Motorways with their unique locations can only charge ~20% price premium over local discounters. Competition works!
EV network is in a state of flux - high current investment needs, variety of business and funding models, different apps, lots of players in a developing market. Outcome - relative chaos.
My guess it will be a few years before the market settles. But there is no reason to treat it any differently to ICE - all forecourts should make their charges evident before purchase.
Last edited by: Terry on Tue 20 Jun 23 at 16:05
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The average price per kilowatt hour (kWh) for a Supercharger in the UK is 67p, but Tesla owners who subscribe to the £10.99 per month membership will be charged around 53p per kWh to charge their car.
In 2022, Tesla opened up some of their Supercharger network to non-Tesla drivers with the chargers available to use on a pay-as-you-go basis. For non-Tesla drivers the Supercharger network costs 77p per kWh.
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>> The average price per kilowatt hour (kWh) for a Supercharger in the UK is 67p,
>> but Tesla owners who subscribe to the £10.99 per month membership will be charged around
>> 53p per kWh to charge their car.
>>
Not sure where you got this information from.
There's no need for a Tesla owner to pay a subscription to benefit from cheaper supercharging - that's for non Tesla owners. I've just looked at a few supercharger sites on my Tesla app and they're all around 44p-46p per kWh.
Non Tesla owners can use selected supercharger sites - either on a PAYG basis at a higher rate, or by paying a subscription in order to lower the rate slightly.
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news.sky.com/story/electric-cars-why-arent-more-people-buying-them-12908426
Short podcast on EV sales amongst those that can afford them but choose not to.
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Wrt Jason, I suspect many of us would sooner have a £200,000 Porsche than any £40k saloon... and he says he owns a number of cars so economy clearly doesn't come into his calculations. In one sentence he talks about range anxiety then shortly afterwards says he doesn't do many miles. He clearly likes a bit of noise in his toys. His bit was a waste of time IMO.
My (much more limited) experience of public charging was in line with what the bloke said - one or two problems but really nothing to write home about. I wonder whether the lady's point about EVs being 37% more expensive to produce than ICE was correct, but for sure the servicing costs are a whole lot less.
Reminded me why I don't listen to many podcasts, but thanks for it anyway :-)
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No i don't either, but this one was short and to the point.
I took him to mean he does fewer longer journeys.
I would says she's about right, EVs certainly cost more to build.
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It was reported today that VW’s EV sales are running 30% less than expected so they are cutting production. Don’t know if the same applies to other manufacturers?
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>> It was reported today that VW’s EV sales are running 30% less than expected
May be due to the terrible press they got over the driver controls, the haptic buttons and the aircon/heating being moved a nested set of menus on the screen. And they are behind in the range wars.
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I think big ticket items aren't exactly flying off the shelves.
With EVs there's a lot coming off 3 year leases so the second hand prices have tanked making them more attractive than new.
6mth old LEAF for under 16k - www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202306208738802
ZOE for same - www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202306158563346
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The explosion in the cost of electricity, especially public chargers, makes them a lot less attractive.
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It’s mainly due to the slump of VW sales in China which is VW’s largest market
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I suppose/suspect it’s a case of things never being quite as simple as they seem. All consumer goods are being affected in some ways by current market forces.
The industry I’m closest to is reporting a 40% drop in full price sales value over ‘22 comparable numbers right now. Volumes are holding up a bit better than that but are only being driven by discounts. Pretty much unsustainable ones long term.
Conversely, my local independent car repair and service garage say they’ve never been busier as people keep their older vehicles longer.
Seems like need is trumping want at the moment.
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16 grand for a 6mth old LEAF is bargain basement - when leccy prices drop I wouldn't be surprised to see it blip back up a little.
Even at 35p/kWh is still the equivalent of around 60mpg at current petrol/diesel prices.
ZOE I suspect will fare worse after NCAP effectively refused it a rating after Renault removed side airbags.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 28 Jun 23 at 09:58
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>>my local independent car repair and service garage say they’ve never been busier as people keep their older vehicles longer.
The average punter might not want to keep their car longer BUT the prices for new cars and all 2nd hand cars has gone through the roof.
£40K was the start point of the "luxury car road tax" when it was introduced
£40K is today the roughly price of a quality family car. There are no runabouts under £10K - a Kia Picanto is roughly £13K!
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>> The average punter might not want to keep their car longer BUT the prices for
>> new cars and all 2nd hand cars has gone through the roof.
As a matter of curiosity I've had Motorway value my 2016/45k miles Fabia 1.2 Estate. Current offer is £9500 which is close to what I paid in 2019 as approved used at the local dealer.
No real intention of selling atm unless as part of a fleet rejig also involving the Berlingo as any potential replacement will be equally inflated.
FWIW motorway offer £3,300 for the 2013/63 Berlingo 1.6/115 Hdi with 125k on it in whatever trim it is - way over basic but there was one above.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 28 Jun 23 at 11:10
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I very much doubt that VW sell any German-made cars in China.
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>> I very much doubt that VW sell any German-made cars in China.
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So do I. However the point being discussed was VW’s 30% slump in worldwide sales which is mainly due to their poor performance in China which is VW’s largest market and incidentally the largest Market for EV’s in the world. However well they do in Europe or North America if they fail in China they are in serious trouble. VW are predicting flat or low growth of EV sales in the EU this year.
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The reported cut in production was for their Emden plant though.
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>> I very much doubt that VW sell any German-made cars in China.
No but the VAG group sell cars to China, from their VAG factory in China. Or not so many it seems.
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Why are sales of VW down in China, specific to VW or is the market in general down?
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The Koreans are in there big time, and the Chinese domestic makers are doing well, and there is a lot of them
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"The Koreans are in there big time"
Well not really.
Actually the Koreans are not even in the top ten EV sales in China. There are only two foreign companies in the top ten EV sales this year they being being Tesla 2nd and VW 9th. All the rest are Chinese companies.
An interesting article on VW's Chines problem
www.ft.com/content/afad4566-6404-483e-934f-c905507bf1d0
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An interesting article on VW's Chines problem
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>>
>> www.ft.com/content/afad4566-6404-483e-934f-c905507bf1d0
>>
archive.ph/q5O8C
Non paywall version.
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archive.li/3Ogjj
Issues with charging at mway service. Link is to a Yorkshire Post article.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66384672.amp
The National Grid says five times more power lines need to be built in the next seven years than in the past 30.
Not strictly to do with EV charging but puts into perspective how much work there is to do on the grid.
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>>Not strictly to do with EV charging but puts into perspective how much work there is to do on the grid.
I suspect it is more of a reflection of how little they have done in the past 3 decades despite the blindingly obvious direction of travel.
There are oodles of windfarms being held back because there is no wire to send their leccy down.
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I don't think 30 years ago there would have been much in terms of transmission built with the ability to see that far in the future. Perhaps 5-10 years would be fairer timeline.
I wonder if there is capacity in the infrastructure sector to design all these transmission lines, i suspect not.
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Massive Dogger Bank converter station being completed at the moment down the road. The plan is also to upgrade the already large pylons and transmission lines running from the station.
www.google.com/maps/@53.8093488,-0.4196435,16.94z?authuser=0&entry=ttu
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 4 Aug 23 at 19:39
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I was responsible for a line of towers being taken down. The line used to run over my garden at a time when there was a fear the EMF was carcinogenic. The line was installed during WW2 to supply an armaments complex the other side of town and was largely redundant. Both the power station and armaments complex having long gone. I discovered it was provided under an act of parliament and if anyone protested it's being, then a public meeting had to be held within a certain time, failure to do this and it would have to be removed. I protested, it was acknowledged, but no meeting was called. I contacted (home office IIRC) government and received a copy of the telegram to the appropriate company instructing them to remove the line.
I still occasionally receive a cheque as payment for the wayleave for the line.
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>>I was responsible for a line of towers being taken down.
I'm sure the owners of this bungalow would want to be able to do the same (sold for £70k in 2011, I believe).
media.rightmove.co.uk/46k/45762/30052240/45762_1411A_1411_IMG_03_0000.JPG
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I was mid-point between two towers. A house up the road gained a sizeable extra piece of garden when one tower was removed. It was up for sale when I learned the line was going, should've bought it!
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EV charging question - smokie
