Motoring Discussion > PCN Received	Legal Questions
Thread Author: Fullchat	Replies: 45

Fri 12 May 23 17:18   PCN Received - Fullchat

Couple of weeks ago I had occasion to go across to the darkside (Preston Lancs) to join in the celebration event of a relative who has reached 105. Due to an early start I though I'd do an Ibis hotel at Preston the previous night. I drove Mrs FCs car (just park that one). I stopped off at Ilkley to visit my brother then continued arriving at 23.30 ish. Very quiet at the hotel and an almost empty car park. Checked in and entered my vehicle details in the pad at reception even redoing it just in case. Enjoyed the celebrations which finished at Blackpool Airport. Had a few days in Wensleydale last week and arriving home Mrs FC does the mail and throws my a piece of paper. "Best sort that out" Yes a PCN from Civil Enforcement for my stay at the Ibis. Well I recall entering my vehicle details twice. And that was the crux of the matter it was my vehicle not Mrs FC's. I suppose you could call it a 'fair cop' after a fashion. A bit of research reveals that the British Parking Association members will give some leniency in such circumstances. There are two categories. Minor Keying Error where maybe one digit is entered wrongly or a Major Keying Error where the whole number is entered incorrectly. The Minor should incur no charge and the Major a penalty of up to £20 to cover admin. These appeals should be resolved at the first stage by the parking company. So I duly submitted an online appeal and uploaded a copy of my hotel invoice. Today I receive an email: RESPONSE TO REPRESENTATION We refer to your recent correspondence. We have carefully reviewed your appeal and/or evidence provided taking into consideration all the points you have raised in relation to this Parking Charge Notice. On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reason: We have no record of the above vehicle being registered to be exempt from the parking restrictions in place on the day in question. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. This ticket was issued correctly as the driver failed to accurately provide their Vehicle Registration Number. It is therefore our position that the Parking Charge was validly issued because of the above detailed breach of the terms and conditions set out on signs in the car park. You have now reached the end ofour internal appeals procedure. You now have two choices: 1. Pay the reduced charge of £20 within 14 days beginning with the date of this letter, after which the PCN charge will revert to the original charge detailed on the PCN. To make a payment at the lower rate please visit www.ce-service.co.uk or call 0115 822 5020. 2. If you are not satisfied with our decision, you may appeal to the Independent Appeals Service(POPLA) via www.popla.co.uk using verification code 1411323019 within 28 days from the date this letter. In their words I've lost my appeal but they did presumably check and accepted my argument that I keyed in a differnt VRM. Then substituted the 'fine' with the 'Admin' charge. So why just not acknowledge the fact in a less uphanded tone? They really are a set of leeching shisters. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 17:34   PCN Received - Manatee

You got what you hoped for IIUC? i.e. a £20 fee? Maybe somebody needs a bit of training. Nobody sat down and wrote that. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 18:05   PCN Received - Fullchat

Yes I got a result of sorts. I shall pay and put it to bed. And a lesson learned re my own complacency. It rattles me that these outfits work on guilty until proved innocent approach with very little leeway and a bullying approach. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 18:56   PCN Received - Kevin

Because your appeal now goes in the 'Rejected' column of someone's spreadsheet. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 19:06   PCN Received - zippy

I loathe these parking organisations and specifically try to avail locations where they are used. Even our local Tesco has it and has a complicated list of rules as to length of stay vs day of the week vs time of day. There is nothing near by which would mean non shoppers park there, so to me it's just a money making scheme and consequently I don't bother now. There have been stories in the local rag of people being charged who shopped on the morning for something like a meal deal or breakfast in the cafe on the way to work then went shopping in the PM on the same day and got an £80 fine. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 19:34   PCN Received - Fullchat

As I say 'guilty until proven innocent" and discretion is not in their business model. What is in their business model is "Keep bullying, being obstructive and threatening until such time as they cave in and pay. If the don't its cost us little and you win some you loose some" Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 12 May 23 at 19:34 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 21:49   PCN Received - Bill Payer

>> I loathe these parking organisations and specifically try to avail locations where they are used. >> >> Even our local Tesco has it... Waitrose is supposed to be one of the worst for being completely inflexible - they say "nothing to do with us, it's the landlords" even where they solely occupy the site. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 19:29   PCN Received - Fullchat

"Because your appeal now goes in the 'Rejected' column of someone's spreadsheet." Performance Indicator. Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 12 May 23 at 19:29 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 19:35   PCN Received - Kevin

Justifying their existence, possibly to Ibis. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 19:39   PCN Received - Fullchat

Its not exactly in a position which lends itself to abuse by non customers so the question would be, "What have Ibis to gain from employing someone to police their car parks?" Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 20:13   PCN Received - tyrednemotional

...they may have an arrangement with a parking control firm, but it doesn't necessarily mean Ibis are paying them. Who gets the proceeds of the PCN? (The Ibis used by visitors to my last employers was, not so fondly, referred to as the Abyss) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 20:48   PCN Received - Fullchat

It was a tad 'worn' shall we say. It was cheap. Well it would have been without the extra £20 :/ Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 12 May 23 21:08   PCN Received - slowdown avenue

my wife did the same thing. we had the same result. just pay it amd move on Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 06:10   PCN Received - Duncan

It seems you didn't comply with the parking regulations. You agree. They have reduced it to £20 admin charge. Seems not unreasonable. Shrug shoulders, pay £20, move on, be more careful next time. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 13 May 23 08:20   PCN Received - sherlock47

Driving on 'automatic', and late at night? Probably a candidate for testing? www.independent.co.uk/news/health/blood-test-law-sleep-driving-b2336842.html In an AI future you will probably be auto reported by the car, with the PCN delivered before you wake up! Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 14 May 23 21:46   PCN Received - Dave_

>> my wife did the same thing. we had the same result. just pay it amd move on Same here. Wicksteed Park, she took my car and not hers. The payment machine is encountered at the end of the day's fun, before you reach the car park and see which car you brought. Twenty notes for us as well. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 10:53   PCN Received - Zero

I have to say it's a long rant about nothing. You admit you cocked up, you said the best you could hope for was 20 quid, which you got, so the rest was vented spleen about a computer generated letter that wasn't touchy feely? Jeez life's a bitch init Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 11:04   PCN Received - zippy

>> I have to say it's a long rant about nothing. That's 90% of this website isn't it? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 11:35   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

Needing to register your car at hotel reception seems to be increasingly the norm. Our general preference is to use Premier Inn who certainly demanded car's VRN when I was at their Cribbs Causeway site a couple of months ago. Same at the Village Chester - actually at Shotton in Wales - when we visit our daughter. They allow parking FoC from Friday pm to Sunday pm but outwith those times parking is charged separately unless included in your 'deal'. The car park is often close to being full, there's a gym and restaurant on site too which probably goes some way to account for the numbers. Next stay will be Friday fortnight at the Prem Inn near Stirling. If I remember I'll report on how that works. Locally we have Premiership Rugby AND a mid league (3rd Division as was) soccer ground. There are several well located and very large car parks provided specifically for match days. The ends folks who've paid probably well over £100 will go to so as not to pay a fiver for parking beggars belief. Dumping your car on street and walking well over a mile is commonplace. Sainsbury's reduce the normal three hours to two on matchdays. There's a sign with ANPR camera the displays your reg and the time you have as you drive in. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 12:08   PCN Received - Falkirk Bairn

In Scotland you can just ignore private parking invoices. You still have to pay Police & Local Authority fines. The car owner is not liable and he/she are not required to say who was driving the car. Not knowing the driver details the Parking Vultures cannot enforce payment via a court order as they need a name & address to raise a court action. Threatening letters arrive, increasing fees & charges and after about 6 months the demands cease. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 13 May 23 12:35   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

>> In Scotland you can just ignore private parking invoices. >> You still have to pay Police & Local Authority fines. >> >> The car owner is not liable and he/she are not required to say who was >> driving the car. That of course used to be broadly the case in England and Wales. The Protection of Freedoms Act made the owner liable. Then the Supreme Court's decision in the Beavis case clarified the contractual position vis a vis the car park operator and that charges similar to those levied as fines on local authority car parks were reasonable. Since then the parking companies, or at least some of them, have been much more willing to take and pursue cases in the County Court. There is also anecdotal evidence of District Judges giving short shrift to various spurious defences picked up from the net, often from sources that are ignorant of or predate Beavis. Advice now is that while ignoring it and hoping it's not pursued is an option you need to to be watchful in case a summons arrives. At that point, absent a proper defence, you're going to be paying a lot more than the discounted rate for holding your hand up quickly. The other point is that for all of the talk of 'vultures' controlling abuse of private land for parking is legitimate end. Ask anybody who lives near a tube station. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 14 May 23 09:52   PCN Received - Falkirk Bairn

I am not condoning parking offenders as parking anywhere is / can be unsociable and /or dangerous. Parking companies have their place as too many people would take advantage of, for example, free supermarket carpark rather than pay at the station. Locally there is a problem in Linlithgow - police do not normally deal with parking. However Linlithgow, a small town with an ancient palace, has parking issues due to the lack of parking wardens and the lack of council powers to act on parking. Police come out and just blast a the main street illegal parking a few times per week - seems to work. My last parking fine was around 1984 £6.00 - I just play by the rules & where I have paid for limited parking I set a timer on my phone. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 13 May 23 13:53   PCN Received - Fullchat

"Jeez life's a bitch init" Sure is Zero. Start of the long slippery slope towards train spotting. Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 13 May 23 at 13:56 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sun 14 May 23 14:39   PCN Received - Zero

>> "Jeez life's a bitch init" >> >> Sure is Zero. Start of the long slippery slope towards train spotting. Where you never get fined for parking cos you need to keep your wits about you Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 14 May 23 20:07   PCN Received - R.P.

Same system in the Holiday Inn in Lancaster. Stayed there for a couple of nights on a bike trip. I made an error inputing the bike's number, didn't correct it. Heard nothing. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 11:34   PCN Received - Bobby

Have often wondered if there is a market for a simple item to cover the number plate. Like an elasticated bit of black material. Stop outside the car park. Put these over both plates. Drive in and park. Then remove. I remember doing similar on day of beast from east. Went to one of my shops to drop something in. Ended up having to stay three hours and thus overstay car park rules. I covered up my number plates with cardboard and drove out the car park and took them off. Never heard a thing from the company. I believe that A. The cameras are programmed to photograph number plates so if they don’t “see” a number plate no photo is taken. B. They can only charge you if they have entry and exit times. So covering registration going in should suffice? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 11:41   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

>> Have often wondered if there is a market for a simple item to cover the >> number plate. At one time motorcyclists with machines left in contravention in London were in the habit of covering their plates. Whether true or not I don't know, but the rationale was that the parking attendants were not allowed to interfere with vehicles other than to attach a ticket. Rules were changed and I don't remember seeing the practice on any recent trip down there. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 11:44   PCN Received - Bobby

Yeah that’s a point. What happens with bikes that are parked with full covers over them? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 12:12   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

The big case over wrongly entered numbers involved Baroness Walmsley and the Lodong Congestion Charge - went all the way to the Court of Appeal where she lost: www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/WalmsleyJudgmentCA171205%5B1%5D.pdf Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 15:07   PCN Received - Fullchat

Ive tried reading from page 10 and then the highlights. My head hurts and I'm still not sure of the full outcome. As I see it there were 2 areas that were decided upon. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 13:47   PCN Received - zippy

A lot of road traffic laws apply to areas where the public have access to, even if it's not a proper road. A classic example is being drunk in charge whilst on a holiday camp or previously using contactless phones to pay at a drive through (though I understand this has now changed). So covering your plates even on private property may be illegal, but I don't know what driving laws cover private places with public access and what laws don't. Next door neighbour had a run in with the police over his electric scooter which he uses on our very long drive (300+ ft). He uses it to try to regain his balance after a stroke with the intention of being able to ride his motorbike again. Police in a passing cop car caught him at the bottom of the drive where it joins the road and tried to confiscate it because public have access to our drive. Well they don't, there is an implied right of access but it is not a public right of way and public aren't invited. A very strongly worded letter from a solicitor got the scooter returned and recovery fee waived. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 19:35   PCN Received - Fullchat

Bobby might be on to something here :) Registration plates fall under the Vehicles Excise Act under which the definition of a road is something like: "a road repairable at public expense." The RTA its: "“road”, in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes." Under the Road Traffic Act the definition of a road is much wider and for some offences stretches to Public Place. For example the power to stop a vehicle (163) only applies on a road. Drink Drive, Careless Driving and others extends to Public Place. So you don't need plates or payment of Vehicle Excise to drive over the Humber Bridge but everything else applies. (In theory) However if the covering of the plates avoids a legitimate payment there will be some fraud offence to cover. Mere possession, 'going equipped'. Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 15 May 23 at 19:40 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 22:31   PCN Received - bathtub tom

>> includes bridges over which a road >> passes." >> So you don't need plates or payment of Vehicle Excise to drive over the Humber >> Bridge but everything else applies. (In theory) I don't see how those two statements apply? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 15 May 23 22:47   PCN Received - Fullchat

Because plates and excise licence only apply to roads repairable at public expense. (definition 1). The Humber Bridge is a private concern and is classed as not being repairable at public expense BUT it becomes a 'road' under the RTA (definition 2). I'm pretty sure the M6 Toll would be the same. However unless you get airlifted onto it by Chinook you enter and exit on public roads hence the 'in theory'. Its one of those anomalies of law :/ Last edited by: Fullchat on Mon 15 May 23 at 22:51 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 16 May 23 08:35   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

>> Because plates and excise licence only apply to roads repairable at public expense. Indeed. From the nineties onwards parking enforcement has been transferred to Councils, a process known initially as decriminalised parking enforcement. Some of them had terms requiring cars on their off-street car parks to display a valid tax disc. This was another one that went to the courts where it was found that there was nothing in the law allowing tickets to be issued on those cases. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Fri 16 Jun 23 09:02   PCN Received - wotspur

A tip , no matter how often you’ve used a car park Always photograph their T&C’s . I had parked at a store 3hrs parking for ages , then without warning it went down to 90 minutes on a Friday ( mosque NEXTDOOR , I’d spent over 100 at Asda and initially thry wouldn’t cancel it , but after a nice gentle conversation I got to speak to someone senior , and the louder I got the more compliant he became in saying he’d get it cancelled . So far I have a 8-0 win against these fines including one that went to court, after 2.5yrs . There are several great FB pages who will help people fine loopholes , most are for free , but a guy charges £15.00 for his services , but has a good success rate . The worst one I heard was a person parked in a multi story , paid for 2 hrs parking , but due to roadworks on the main road , despite being back at the car within the 2hrs , took 20 mins to Exit , and lost at court , because they were still on the land and “could/should have bought another ticket - how ridiculous thry weren’t parked Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 16 Jun 23 09:12   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

>> The worst one I heard was a person parked in a multi story , paid >> for 2 hrs parking , but due to roadworks on the main road , despite >> being back at the car within the 2hrs , took 20 mins to Exit , >> and lost at court , because they were still on the land and “could/should have >> bought another ticket - how ridiculous thry weren’t parked We had a rash of those locally after the roads around one local town edge shopping place were shut due to a dub on fire and consequent total gridlock. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 16 Jun 23 11:55   PCN Received - Duncan

>> We had a rash of those locally after the roads around one local town edge >> shopping place were shut due to a dub on fire and consequent total gridlock. >> Yeah, but what's a dub? Is that part of a Cub's promise. "I'll dib, dib, dib and dob, dob, dob? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 16 Jun 23 12:16   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

>> Yeah, but what's a dub? Is that part of a Cub's promise. "I'll dib, dib, >> dib and dob, dob, dob? Should have read pub.... Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 16 Jun 23 13:21   PCN Received - Zero

>> >> Yeah, but what's a dub? Is that part of a Cub's promise. "I'll dib, >> dib, >> >> dib and dob, dob, dob? >> >> Should have read pub.... Yeah, I have often felt that 'spoons food looks like its been salvaged from a fire. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 16 Jun 23 10:56   PCN Received - VxFan

>> A tip , no matter how often you’ve used a car park Always photograph their T&C’s . Also photograph where they are located in the car park too. They're supposed to display one before you enter so you can read their T's & C's before using their car park. They should also be clearly visible throughout the car park, but they tend to fit them high up to help prevent vandalism. This makes them difficult to read, especially more so for the disabled. They should be able to read without leaving the car. And as for paying someone for their services to help avoid a PCN, there is loads of free advice on the MSE (money saving expert) website, along with a free template letter. www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets/ Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Jun 23 10:07   PCN Received - Rudedog

Just wanted some advice. Back from a weeks holiday in France to find two envelopes on the doormat which at first I thought were to do with my VW service plan as they had exactly the same markings on them. Finally got around to opening them only find they were two fines claiming I hadn't paid my daily parking fee at my hospital on the 02/06 and 05/06. We have to pay £3 per day via a parking app, up until about a month ago this was done via the 'PaybyPhone' app without any issues what so ever, then the Trust moved to 'Saba Parking', all of the onsite signs were changed (I guess they paid for that?). I always pay for my daily parking at home as I'm getting ready to leave at 6am just in case I don't have good reception to make the card transaction to my bank. Anyhow, receiving these two PCNs really put me in a panic and was a real downer after a great week away.... both fines were for £100 reduced to £50 if I coughed up early, in my mind I knew I had paid so I trawled through my bank transactions and found both payments, then I remembered that they are also saved in the apps ticket history, again both dates showed up! I hope with both bits of evidence that it should be a slam-dunk but can anybody think of a reason they might refuse my appeals? When I'm back at work tomorrow I'll check in case others got the fines on the same dates maybe due to a glitch at their end otherwise I'll have to go through I guess a lengthy appeals procedure for each fine. As I've never received a PCN in my driving time so this is all new to me, feels odd especially as they've got it so wrong.... maybe I should be 'fining' them for stress caused! Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Jun 23 11:45   PCN Received - tyrednemotional

...does the app require a reg. no. and did you enter it correctly on those occasions? Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Jun 23 11:47   PCN Received - Bromptonaut

Assuming that although NHS this is, for practical purposes, parking on private land as opposed to a car park operated by a local council. First thought would be to make sure your car's VRN is correctly entered in Saba's system. Not fatal to a defence if it's not but might a reason why things have gone wrong. Either way I'd ask the parking operator to look at it again presenting evidence of the fact you paid etc. and complied with the conditions. No way of saying they won't come with back with some reason to reject your submission but cross that bridge when you come to it. If you do have to appeal which of the oversight bodies - eg the British Parking Association - is Saba a member of? BPA's appeal mechanism is reasonably, or at least in a large part, fair and open. Keep us posted. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Jun 23 12:41   PCN Received - Fullchat

When you play life with a straight bat these do have an impact and this is the audience they prey on. Unfortunately we have been pushed into engaging with these people for an easier life - guilty til proved innocent :/ If you have entered an incorrect VRM see my original post at the top: A bit of research reveals that the British Parking Association members will give some leniency in such circumstances. There are two categories. Minor Keying Error where maybe one digit is entered wrongly or a Major Keying Error where the whole number is entered incorrectly. The Minor should incur no charge and the Major a penalty of up to £20 to cover admin. These appeals should be resolved at the first stage by the parking company. If not then the issue is with them and you are now going to have to provide the evidence that you did pay along with a 'strongly worded' letter outlining the circumstances and that you consider that that be the conclusion of the matter and that any further communication will be deemed as harassment and engagement by yourself will be subject to charge at an appropriate rate. Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 18 Jun 23 at 12:43 Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 18 Jun 23 17:47   PCN Received - Rudedog

Thanks all. The Trust switched to Saba about a month and a bit ago and as part of the setup staff have to create an account which includes your reg and payment details, each morning I just click the button that says 'park again' (the staff carpark has a unique location code number) and then pay via my bank account so I've been doing this same process since about the start of May without issue. I'll take screen-shots from their own app for the dates to include with the appeals which I suspect will be treated separately.... what a pain. Also the parking isn't controlled by ANPR but by MNPR - basically one guy walks around the whole of the hospital checking plates on his handset - maybe my payment didn't find it's way through the airwaves in time. Reply to this message | Report message