Motoring Discussion > Voting for the expansion of ULEZ Miscellaneous
Thread Author: henry k Replies: 56

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - henry k
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64295695

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/16/london-mayor-sadiq-khan-accused-manipulating-poll-expand-ulez/

853.london/2023/01/16/bexley-and-bromley-councils-threaten-legal-action-over-ulez-expansion-misery/

www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/ulez-expansion-plans-stretching-surrey-25978779

If it still goes ahead my son will have to pay £12.50 each day if he ventures a few streets from home.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
My understanding is that if its a petrol car it has to be Euro 4 or later to avoid the charge. Euro 4 was introduced 1st January 2005 so I guess it not unreasonable e to draw the line at 17 year old vehicles.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Boxsterboy
>> My understanding is that if its a petrol car it has to be Euro 4
>> or later to avoid the charge. Euro 4 was introduced 1st January 2005 so I
>> guess it not unreasonable e to draw the line at 17 year old vehicles.
>>

Exactly, and when kids are dying from pollution-induced asthma, politicians are under a duty to clean things up.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - sooty123
I wonder how much this will bring in, what are tfl going to spend the money on?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Robin O'Reliant
>> I wonder how much this will bring in, what are tfl going to spend the
>> money on?
>>

Transgender seating on buses and tubes.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - carmalade
I’m off to buy a Cortina . Enough of this ulez scam.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Kevin
>... what are tfl going to spend the money on?

Cameras?

I haven't checked any of the claims in this article so caveat emptor -

www.glaconservatives.co.uk/post/mayor-spends-over-250m-increasing-the-cost-of-living-only-80m-on-reducing-it
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Cameras?
>>
>> I haven't checked any of the claims in this article so caveat emptor -
>>
>> www.glaconservatives.co.uk/post/mayor-spends-over-250m-increasing-the-cost-of-living-only-80m-on-reducing-it

Or was it like the last extension where Westminster drove the pace while actively denying it?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Kevin
Khan is really a closet-Conservative!!!?

How low will these swine go?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
Why all the hostility to a scheme that will bring cleaner air to London thus reducing illness and early death and which won’t actually inconvenience or cost anything to 92% of Londoners?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Why all the hostility to a scheme that will bring cleaner air to London thus
>> reducing illness and early death and which won’t actually inconvenience or cost anything to 92%
>> of Londoners?

I'm surprised the unaffected proportion is as low as 8% but however the numbers pan out I suspect those people are in the outer boroughs. There's also the same issue that led to the challenge to Livingston's 'Fares Fair' policy forty years ago; without the tube South London has worse public transport than North London.

Interviews on the radio yesterday regarding one of the Councils attempting to stop ULEZ infrastructure, Sutton, referred to cuts in their buses.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
I live right on the border of Bromley and Kent and I don't remotely consider myself a Londoner.

The proposed ULEZ starts less than 100m from my door, this will have a major impact on our way of life.

My parents live just up the road but inside Kent, my dad drives a 2013 diesel Golf he won't be able to visit me without paying the charge.

How are they going to manage to install cameras to cover the numerous small rural roads that are around me which cross the border?

There are plenty of small delivery and agricultural vehicles that I guess will also be affected, if not then why not?

Will there have to be warning signs plastered on all roads crossing the border making an eyesore?

Also I live on the flight path of the many business jets flying in and out of Biggin Hill (which is rapidly expanding), nothing is being done to stop the pollution from them.

To be honest I don't know much about it, there hasn't been anything from Bromley Council.





 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Boxsterboy
>> The proposed ULEZ starts less than 100m from my door, this will have a major
>> impact on our way of life.
>>
>> My parents live just up the road but inside Kent, my dad drives a 2013
>> diesel Golf he won't be able to visit me without paying the charge.
>>

Could they not walk the last 100m?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
Hope that's a joke?

'Up the road' in my case means over a mile of unlight country roads before they come to my neck of the woods and the border.

The boarder is 100m from my door.

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Boxsterboy
>> Hope that's a joke?
>>
>> 'Up the road' in my case means over a mile of unlight country roads before
>> they come to my neck of the woods and the border.
>>
>> The boarder is 100m from my door.
>>

What I meant was, could they not drive up to the border, park up, and walk the last 100m to your door?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
Sorry didn't mean to be off hand.... now I know more about this it's going to have a big impact on daily life for many many people and busineses around here if it goes ahead.

Still don't understand why there's been nothing sent out or flyers through the door from the council preparing families.

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Still don't understand why there's been nothing sent out or flyers through the door from
>> the council preparing families.

The ULEZ is a Mayor/TfL initiative and its up to them to prepare the public.

I suspect that if councils like Bromley and Sutton, opposed to the change, use public money in a way that shows their opposition they'll have the District Auditor on their case.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Also I live on the flight path of the many business jets flying in and
>> out of Biggin Hill (which is rapidly expanding), nothing is being done to stop the
>> pollution from them.

Obviously business jets are producing CO2 but where are they with other pollutants?

AIUI the ULEZ is about reducing NOx and particulates at ground level which are a recognised hazard.

I also doubt that TfL can do anything to restrict Biggin's air traffic some of which is being squeezed out of other airfields.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Oldgit
For those affected it's time to get some reflective number plates or whatever they're called, to avoid detection by ANPR type cameras.
My Cousin who live near West Wickham in Kent (as I call it still) has a 20yr old Ford Fiesta 1.25 and that is not ULEZ compliant according to Tfl's website and so she's stuck with charges if and when this nonsense materialises.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
Exactly... quick look at the cars in our Waitrose carpark this evening and probably about a quarter wouldn't pass the test. Mixture of older diesel Range Rovers/Discoverys and Jeeps, early 2000's pick-ups and small petrol runner-rounds plus the ever present VAG TDi's.

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Zero
>> For those affected it's time to get some reflective number plates or whatever they're called,
>> to avoid detection by ANPR type cameras.

Not legal and guaranteed to get you a pull by the old bill.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Oldgit
>> >> For those affected it's time to get some reflective number plates or whatever they're
>> called,
>> >> to avoid detection by ANPR type cameras.
>>
>> Not legal and guaranteed to get you a pull by the old bill.
>>

Well, I was quite aware of that tbh. Just a joke.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - zippy
>>Reflective plates...

If the police could prove that you installed them to deliberately avoid prosecution then that's potentially perverting the course of justice, which can carry up to a life sentence! :-O
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Zero
>> >>Reflective plates...
>>
>> If the police could prove that you installed them to deliberately avoid prosecution then that's
>> potentially perverting the course of justice, which can carry up to a life sentence! :-O

In theory, but never tested in court, No PCJ charges have been authorised by the DPP. Apparently.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Not legal and guaranteed to get you a pull by the old bill.

There were changes to the rules for registration plates a couple of years ago specifically around certain backgrounds and finishes.

Neighbour had to change her rear plate as a result.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Terry
Many years ago I used to commute weekly from Heathrow to Paris.

Approaching London airspace a mustard/brown mushroom cloud was often evident over London. Evidence of a frankly disgusting air quality - and one in which I would not want to live.

Moving to Somerset we were beset with breezes dominated by pollution from major conurbations and industry from Cornwall and Devon - the air was mostly very clear.

I would no more want to live in a pool of sewage than heavily polluted air. What the mayor implements I don't really care as I have no intention of living there. But I would fully support any legislation which will objectively reduce pollution.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - bathtub tom
>> >> For those affected it's time to get some reflective number plates or whatever they're
>> called,
>> >> to avoid detection by ANPR type cameras.
>> Not legal and guaranteed to get you a pull by the old bill.

A guy down the road has 'smoked' plates for a couple of years. Presume BIBs aren't interested, although there did seem to be something going on regarding keyless thefts. Reckon it's an HMO.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - smokie
Could it be that this is one reason for expanding the ULEZ?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64381444
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - sooty123
I wonder if the ULEZ has had much impact on either emissions or the amount of traffic in London?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> I wonder if the ULEZ has had much impact on either emissions or the amount
>> of traffic in London?

TfL say it reduced NOx, one of its main targets by 50%:

tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-expansion#:

I was actually in central London on the day the ULEZ started. Far less traffic around Euston and along the roads down to Chancery Lane than I was accustomed to during the period when that was my daily commute. IIRC commencement co-incided with school holidays which might also have been a factor.

The Congestion Charge had a similar effect at its start but traffic crept up again over the next 5 years.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - sooty123
Be interesting to see if the number of cars/car journeys have been impacted by the ulez.

I wonder why the CC is no longer having an impact?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
No, we have been advised ULEZ is all a money making scam to deprive us of our God given right to drive wherever we like. Nothing wrong with that air. All fake news.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> Could it be that this is one reason for expanding the ULEZ?
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64381444

This sort of effect has been a thing in London during prolonged high pressure/still air since the industrial revolution. It was what allowed the great smogs before smoke was reduced.

How much is vehicle pollution is a more open question. I seem to remember that analysis of air in similar conditions a few years ago delivered a surprise result; a lot of it was smoke from wood burning stoves.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - smokie
I'm no scientist but for years ICE cars have had a special pipe to send the noxious fumes out of the back of the car, well away from the occupants, which with a bit of hose has sometimes been used in successful suicides.

So I can't imagine that exhaust gases are anything but bad. Maybe a reduction in car use will enable them to measure their impact more accurately.

I also think wood burning stoves are a contributor but I remember the pea soupers from well before they became fashionable in cities. I suppose there was coal then though.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> I also think wood burning stoves are a contributor but I remember the pea soupers
>> from well before they became fashionable in cities. I suppose there was coal then though.

At one stage relatively recently some analysis was done while high pressure/still air created the sort of London brown smog we have atm. That was I think the first to point the finger at wood burners for particulate pollution.

The 'Great Smog' of 1952, when domestic coal was still king and London had massive coal fired industry, led to the Clean Air Act and smokeless zones.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - smokie
I suppose it depends what you are measuring as to how bad the pollution is.

I believe the emphasis in London is more on the health hazards of small particulates rather than global warming but either way the air in that pic can't be a Good Thing.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - bathtub tom
I've noticed a brown haze over the M1 around J8 on cold, still, clear days like today. I don't think that can be blamed on anything but exhaust emissions.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
Wish you'd stop emphasising the 'London' part of this.

I'm not in or around London.... I'm on the border of two counties and it used to take me over two hours to get to central London by public transport on the occasions I had to go to NHS meetings by Paddington.

At times during the day we still only have buses that come twice an hour (or none as they just don't run), our TfL buses are still small diesel hop on/off types, no hybrids here....

Apart from the jets the main pollution we have is when the farmers are spreading muck on the fields!


 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - sooty123
>> Wish you'd stop emphasising the 'London' part of this.
>>

I'm not in or around London.


Well you can't be that far away if the ULEZ is 100 yrds from your house?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - smokie
... and your buses are TfL!! :-)
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
Whilst I am sure Bromley is a pastoral idyll unfortunately air pollution no no bounds. As I type this the particulate pollution in Bromley is 3.2 times the WHO guidelines.

www.iqair.com/uk/england/bromley
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - John Boy
At the moment it is 6.3 times the WHO guidelines in Norwich:

www.iqair.com/uk/england/norwich
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
Indeed. Norwich, like most UK cities has a pollution problem that needs to be addressed.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Boxsterboy
>> Could it be that this is one reason for expanding the ULEZ?
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64381444
>>

Exactly. Opponents of the ULEZ (current or expanded) seem to forget it is there for public health reasons, and is not just a 'tax'.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Zero

>> Exactly. Opponents of the ULEZ (current or expanded) seem to forget it is there for
>> public health reasons, and is not just a 'tax'.

lets examine that

A: that there is a traffic pollution issue in central London and needs a solution is a given
B: That this is a serious issue/solution required in the outer London boroughs is not.

C: That County Hall and TfL is in a financial hole is not denied.
D: Extending the ULEZ will increase County Hall revenue.

Other benefits

E: Sadiq Khan has probably made himself unelectable for a third term
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Bromptonaut
>> A: that there is a traffic pollution issue in central London and needs a solution
>> is a given
>> B: That this is a serious issue/solution required in the outer London boroughs is not.

Are you sure about B? Parts of Harrow had inner London levels of traffic and pollution when I lived there nearly 40 years ago.

>> C: That County Hall and TfL is in a financial hole is not denied.
>> D: Extending the ULEZ will increase County Hall revenue.

The last extension, to the N/S Circular, was required by Westminster as a quid pro quo for bailing out TfL after Covid. The positive for the Tories was that somehow or other they could claim the extension was Khan's doing.

Anything similar this time?


>> Other benefits
>>
>> E: Sadiq Khan has probably made himself unelectable for a third term

Don't bank on it. A lot of people in London don't use cars, have cars that are ULEZ compliant or support the ULEZ for the sake of their kids etc.


>>
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 24 Jan 23 at 17:12
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - John Boy
One of the links above led me eventually to this:

A mayoral spokesperson for Mr Khan, who in his role is also chair of TfL, said: "Toxic air is a matter of life and death.
.....

85% of vehicles in outer London are already ULEZ compliant and, for those that aren't, the mayor has announced the biggest scrappage scheme yet - £110m - to help the Londoners who need it most amid the cost-of-living crisis, including low-income and disabled Londoners."
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Zero
>> Are you sure about B? Parts of Harrow had inner London levels of traffic and
>> pollution when I lived there nearly 40 years ago.

Areas I know and frequent. Richmond No, Kingston on Thames? No. Sutton? No, Sidcup? No Wimbledon? No.

As for no cars? are you joking? You cant move in tower hamlets for people fighting over car parking spaces for their cars. The non car owning city and central peeps have been pushed out by gentrification.

He is toast, there is serious money in the boroughs now affected by this plus he has cocked up TfL royally in his desire to spread its tentacles into places it shouldn't be. TfL running trains to reading? really?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 24 Jan 23 at 19:27
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Terry
A&B - most of us agree this is the case

C&D - undeniably true

E - Sadiq becomes unelectable - it will be a democratic ousting

WIN, WIN, WIN
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Oldgit
Cannot non compliant vehicles travel within these ULEZ zones both old and new, by using maps to find backroads and alternative routes that are not monitored by cameras - surely not every single road in our road network can have a camera/s along its length. People making short journeys to their local shops as an example must be able to use back road where cameras don't exist?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
I guess most people wiith a car eventually want to drive a little bit further than the locals shops.

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - bathtub tom
I suspect the cameras will be situated at the entry and exit points of the ULEZ. So anyone moving around within the zone wouldn't be detected?
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - CGNorwich
In the existing zone they are located at key junctions in the zone as well as around the perimeter. I would expect the expanded zone to be the same.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Oldgit
I expect there will be plenty of Apps to guide one around - probably already exist in one form or another.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - zippy
Cars registered before 1983 are exempt apparently.

So go and buy a classic MK1 Fiesta, MK2 Escort or Cortina.

 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Rudedog
OG I think you are familiar with my neck of the woods so might appreciate what a job it will be to try and cover all of the country roads crossing the border with cameras.

Seems petrol cars over sixteen years will be hit.... so many small run arounds around here will fall foul, same because I'm sure many won't be able to afford to replace them in the few months they have left before implementation.... a new driver just down the road just passed their test and got a very well looked after Corsa, all shinny but it's on a 2004 plate so I guess it will have be traded in?

Diesels over six years.... plenty of hard working Transits around on 2013-15 plates, guess they will be gone.

Does it affect farm machinery as there are older tractors on the road during certain times of the year.

Ironically I went up to London yesterday and part of my journey at my end was on a 2011 plate bus.. so a bit investment needed there.

Slightly off topic but related to ANPR.... while I was in London we were outside the Houses of Parliament.... heard a very loud rumble and along came a large group of Hells Angels, probably about twenty to thirty.... every single one of them had taped over their number plates, and this was them riding past the largest numbers of police on the street and in vans that I've seen.
 Voting for the expansion of ULEZ - Oldgit
>> OG I think you are familiar with my neck of the woods so might appreciate
>> what a job it will be to try and cover all of the country roads
>> crossing the border with cameras.
>>
>> Seems petrol cars over sixteen years will be hit.... so many small run arounds around.

As I said in an earlier post, my Cousin has a 20+ year old Ford Fiesta 1.25 SE and when I put her Reg number into the TfL checker it said it was non compliant for ULEZ. I have similarly put a friend's Saab 93 SE Turbo, which is 20 years old into the checker and that one is OK.
I had also put some of my three earlier Golfs going back to 2004 into the checker but they don't appear to exist any more. This contrasts with two '60s Austin Healey Sprites that do still exist but one has been resprayed to get rid of that horrible Leaf Green supplied as standard!
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