Motoring Discussion > Who is to blame? Legal Questions
Thread Author: Zero Replies: 17

 Who is to blame? - Zero
This is interesting

Crash video

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HazhFOL5QYU&t=0s

A legal analysis.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4PkJQJaRHA&ab_channel=BlackBeltBarrister

The outcome was no blame or prosecutions
 Who is to blame? - Duncan
Who is to blame?

Without knowing more, it is impossible to say.

Working on the "give way to traffic from the right" principle, then perhaps the car driver is at fault. Why didn't he see the coach?

Was the coach going at a ridiculous speed? Surely his tacho will tell us that.

I would probably hazaed a guess that it might be 50/50.

Oh, and another thing. Why all this 'wetness' about 'I hope you don't find this too distressing', You don't see anything! Oh dear! 'The poor dog'. etc.

Have these people got no backbone? (Provocative remark?)
 Who is to blame? - Zero

>> Working on the "give way to traffic from the right" principle, then perhaps the car
>> driver is at fault. Why didn't he see the coach?


Did you see the coach? right up to the time you enter the roundabout? any sign of the coach, any lights even?
 Who is to blame? - Duncan

>> Did you see the coach? right up to the time you enter the roundabout? any
>> sign of the coach, any lights even?
>>

No, I didn't, but then I wasn't (the camers wasn't) allowed to turn my head to the right. I suggest that although the coach driver was going too fast, the car driver at one o'clock in the morning should have kept a better lookout.

As I said earlier, I think realistically it's 50/50.
 Who is to blame? - Bromptonaut
>> Working on the "give way to traffic from the right" principle, then perhaps the car
>> driver is at fault. Why didn't he see the coach?

As far as we can tell from the dashcam there was nothing visible approaching from the right at the time the car driver entered the roundabout. It's possible somebody more cautious or with Advanced Driver type observational habits might have either slowed or craned their neck to improve their view. I think the road crossing is the A46 - a major thoroughfare out of Leicester - and fast moving traffic might be a known risk. There's a roundabout on my way into Northampton that's a hot spot for red light running. Always check carefully before moving off.

The coach driver was almost certainly too fast and relied solely on looking to his right. He only noticed the car, already on the roundabout and well towards its innermost lane, when he transferred his attention forwards. Might have helped if he'd concentrated on braking and steering rather than leaning on his horn.

He was lucky not to be prosecuted. One hopes he had a cap off no tea and biscuits interview with his driving supervisor. Perhaps the employer disciplined him.

Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 26 Mar 22 at 13:10
 Who is to blame? - Duncan

>> One hopes he had a cap off no tea and biscuits interview with his driving supervisor.
>>

I think those days are in the past.
 Who is to blame? - Bromptonaut
>> I think those days are in the past.

You're probably right. In my final years in the Civil Service they introduced a 'focussed interview' to the manger's toolkit.

In reality it was a boll**ing over coffee.
 Who is to blame? - sooty123
. One hopes he had a cap off no
>> tea and biscuits interview with his driving supervisor. Perhaps the employer disciplined him.
>

Headdress should remain on for for a bolocking.

I would have thought one of our duty pedants would have picked up on that.
 Who is to blame? - Duncan
>> Headdress should remain on for for a bolocking.
>>
>> I would have thought one of our duty pedants would have picked up on
>> that.
>>

Depends. In Her Majesty's armed Forces, one (not me, you understand) removed headdress and belt when on a charge.

Pedant's Note.

Two 'l's in that word referring to testicular arrangements.
Last edited by: Duncan on Sat 26 Mar 22 at 14:29
 Who is to blame? - tyrednemotional
>>I think the road crossing is the A46 - a major thoroughfare out of Leicester
>>
>>

..it's where the A46 turns to meet the Leicester Western Bypass. I use the road and roundabout regularly, and don't think of it as particularly dangerous, albeit lane discipline can sometimes be a bit poor.

Interestingly enough, the roundabout entrance used by the car is the only one that is not light-controlled (other than an uncontrolled slip off the bypass if you're turning North, which is entirely safe as it effectively has its own exit lane).

It's tempting, (given the complete lack of appearance prior to the collision) to think that that the coach had actually entered at the same entrance, and tried to overtake and straight-line East to West, but I'm persuaded to believe it came from the North, fast and unseen by the camera (and the car driver).

This being the case, entry to the roundabout would have been under light-control, and thus should have invoked at least some slowing, but worse than that, the car appears to have reached the next-to-inner lane of the roundabout before collision. It would thus appear that the coach, if straight-lining North to South, had attempted that in lane 3, with no other traffic around. Frankly, it would be extremely easy to take lane 1 North to South at speed given the topography of the roundabout.

goo.gl/maps/hsauXkXwhYQX26kv9

Something fishy about the coach, methinks.




 Who is to blame? - sooty123
A46, I thought I recognised it that roundabout. I was only up that way last week.
 Who is to blame? - Bromptonaut
>> It's tempting, (given the complete lack of appearance prior to the collision) to think that
>> that the coach had actually entered at the same entrance, and tried to overtake and
>> straight-line East to West, but I'm persuaded to believe it came from the North, fast
>> and unseen by the camera (and the car driver).

My take, having seen the aerial view, is that the coach had come from the Newark direction on the A46 and was booked to either call or terminate in Leicester so going south onto the A607.

If he entered the roundabout under a green light he may have had a mental picture that all entry/exit points were light controlled and that the car he hit had jumped a red.
 Who is to blame? - Fullchat
"The outcome was no blame or prosecutions"

That really does not surprise me these days.

I thought coaches had tachographs fitted. That would give an idea of speed prior to and on impact.

The narrators hypothesis I feel is correct the coach driver has 'straight lined' the roundabout.

I've seen this regularly. Give Way to vehicles coming from the right. That's fine but right should mean actually on the roundabout. Too often you see cars barrelling in because they have a good view to their right but disregarding other vehicles that may be using the roundabout to their left with more restricted visibility. At some point you do actually have to commit to entering a roundabout.

From what I've seen I'd be looking at the coach driver. TFF . (Too X Fast)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 26 Mar 22 at 12:56
 Who is to blame? - sooty123
You can't see the coach until after it hits the car. Gives you some idea of the speed it was travelling at.

Probably on some graveyard shift where there's very little traffic. No doubt it was a surprise to both parties that the roundabout wasn't empty.
 Who is to blame? - Duncan
Any road. Am I the only one who thought the warnings that the scenes "may cause distress" were wet?
 Who is to blame? - Zero
>> Any road. Am I the only one

Aye.
 Who is to blame? - Manatee
>>Give Way to vehicles coming from the right. That's fine but right should mean actually on the roundabout.

This to my mind is defect in the highway code. Particularly with small roundabouts it's possible to hit somebody entering to your left who has entered the roundabout before you got there. That's most likely to happen when there's a clear view to the right and the 'offender' is planning to straight line the roundabout.

Roadcraft isn't super-explicit either, although probably even fewer people read that. It does say something like "don't come into conflict with traffic already on the roundabout" and "prepare to stop while looking for an opportunity to join".

"You must give way to traffic on the roundabout" needs to be explicit somewhere (and taught, since nobody reads the HC).

Is that on the M1 to A46 route? I use that from time to time. I believe there is some lights control but I don't know whether it's 24 hours or peak times only. I'm not a fan - light controlled roundabouts provoke some very bad behaviour from red light runners. I always feel I'm taking my life in my hands at Handy Cross roundabout (M40 at Wycombe).
 Who is to blame? - hawkeye
Nobody's yet mentioned the higher driving standards expected of a professional driver. The coach driver seemingly failed with a few of the following;

HC Section 184; on approach; "Remain aware of the speed and position of the traffic around you" (including traffic in your path)

HC Section 185; at the roundabout; "Watch out for other road users on the roundabout" and

HC Section 187; ...watch out for and give plenty of room to...
"Traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout ..."
"Traffic straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly ..."

As an ex-coach driver, it goes against the grain to say this, but I think the driver in the clip is at least 90% responsible for the collision on so many levels.
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