On Saturday I drove my first modern diesel car. Previous experiences of diesels being 1990s commercial vehicles - Transit/Hilux.
1. Whose idea was it to put the driver's seat slider on the left hand side. Car belongs to a short girl who had the seat as far forward as possible, I'm 6' tall and actually couldn't get into the car to move the seat back. No doubt with practice it might happen.
2. Let clutch out and was amazed by the surge of torque. Took a few miles before I got the hang of gear changes; quite unlike anything else.
3. Actually there's too much torque... a hill start on a very steep Cornish hill I just couldn't manage without spinning the wheels.
4. First experience of a six-gear car too. Cruising at under 2k rpm is a delight.
5. Golly it shifts.
6. Interior is very poverty spec indeed, hard plasticy seats; ugh.
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Imagine it in the snow.
Last winter I laughed at BMW/Mercedes drivers who left their cars at home or were stuck on 1 in 20,000 hills whilst our Yaris/106 sailed happily onwards...
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I know I harp on about this, but you could cruise under 2,000 rpm in the top ratio of a 5-speed gearbox or a 4-speed or a 3-speed come to that - if it was the same ratio as the top ratio of the 6-speed.
Powerful (ie torquey) diesel engines don't need six gears! It's just more work for those who choose to change gear themselves because they feel they are 'in control'.
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I absolutely agree MH. My sister has a six-speed diesel Punto in NZ. Couldn't understand what made them add another ratio. Five would be fine.
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I agree too. Our two diesels have comparable power and torque outputs, but the five-speed Volvo is nicer to drive and uses less fuel than the newer, six-speed Verso.
There's another effect, too. The sixth forward speed steals the best position for reverse, which is forced into unduly close proximity with first. There's a beep to tell me I've selected R, but by then (and it's quite easy to do in spite of a bit of designed-in obstruction) I've already lit up the reversing lights and alarmed the driver behind.
Perhaps this is why Renault was an early adopter of the six-speed box - other drivers assume spurious reversing lights are just another electrical fault.
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>> There's another effect, too. The sixth forward speed steals the best position for reverse, which
>> is forced into unduly close proximity with first.
So the layout is
R 1 3 5
2 4 6
...which I've had in 2 cars (one Seat, one Ford) But oddly enough both our current cars, which are 6-speed, have the gear layout as
1 3 5
2 4 6 R
although petrol 6-speed versions of the Bravo have the position you describe, which leads me to wonder if a GM box went in there.
Having owned both types I can't really admit to a preference - I suppose the one thing to be said for having reverse next to first is that selection errors would only take place at low speeds.
Is the BMW system still reliant on a stronger spring past 1st to get reverse, then?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 27 Sep 10 at 20:01
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Gah - spacing came out all wrong. R should be off to the left on the first example.
Stupid software, don't assume you know better than me. I'll tell you when you do.
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>> Gah - spacing came out all wrong. R should be off to the left on the first example.
Any better?
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>> Any better?
>>
Perfick - cheers Dave :-)
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Agree with those that don't think 6-speeds are always necessary. I have the older 5-speed version of the Accord diesel. I borrowed a 6-speed for two weeks a few years ago. 6th was fractionally (100 rpm) higher than 5th in mine at 70, but really all it achieved was more changing of gear.
Having said that, I will concede that there were some benefits: 5th on country roads was still tractable while at lower revs than 4th in mine, but overall I found it inferior.
Marketing wins though, when buying five years ago I looked at 6-speed cars first as they were 'better'. I'd like to think I have grown up a bit now.
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Oh yes, why on earth make going into reverse such a sloppy event?
I'm a great fan of the Vauxhall "collar" on the gear lever - cannot possibly be operated by accident, and once lifted makes dropping into reverse easy.
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The VW "push down" is easier than the "collar lift"
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>> VW "push down"
Don't you mean Ford Zero?
Those work fine but some drivers are so anxious and heavy-handed that they can operate them accidentally.
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Easier isn't necessarily better though, Z. I want something that forces me into a very deliberate action to engage reverse, and all my other regular drives have had it - lift up, push down, pull across or whatever. The Verso is the first one where going backwards by mistake is a serious possibility.
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>> going backwards by mistake is a serious possibility.
... or changing into reverse at 100mph and exploding the gearbox.
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have you ever tried to put a car into reverse at 100 mph? There are lots of noisy and virbratory clues not to do so, and it takes a deliberate, hard effort to get the gears to mesh.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 27 Sep 10 at 15:43
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>>and it takes a deliberate hard effort to get the gears to mesh.
>>
MUSH
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Is there not a mechanism within the box that will not allow you to drop it into R, whilst the car is in forward motion ?
IIRC the Micra I learned to drive in went like this
1 3 5
2 4 R
I asked the question to my instrcutor, "what if it goes into Reverse by Mistake" and he told me that it was impossible to select it whilst the car was going forward as there was a mechanism in the box to stop you doing so, I dont know if this is right though.
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All the cars I've had with that pattern won't go from 5th to reverse. You need to go from 5th to neutral, across the neutral gate to the left, then back to the right before the lever will drop back into reverse.
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I don't understand all this confusion over operating the gears at all. I have no problem on my car.
At the start of the journey, I move the lever from the "P" position to the "D" position and leave it there. Simples!
Just as the OP was surprised how good modern diesels are, I suspect that a lot of people don't realise just how good modern automatic gearboxes can be, and once they got used to them would never want to go back to all the faffing around with pedals and levers.
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>> I don't understand all this confusion over operating the gears at all. I have no
>> problem on my car.
>> At the start of the journey, I move the lever from the "P" position to
>> the "D" position and leave it there. Simples!
So your the richard who cant reverse. the one I get stuck behind in the car park. I hope your runflats dislodge your war wound.
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>> So your the richard who cant reverse. the one I get stuck behind in the
>> car park. I hope your runflats dislodge your war wound.
>>
On the contrary, My Dear Zero. Selecting reverse gear in an automatic is so simple that even you could do it. :-)
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>> On the contrary, My Dear Zero. Selecting reverse gear in an automatic is so simple
>> that even you could do it. :-)
Not with the other car park richard up my backside I cant.
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I drove my brother in law's E90 320d with the earlier 163PS engine. While the performance was very impressive, I thought the engine disappointingly gruff, and at idle, quite vibratory compared with similar sized common rail diesels from PSA/Ford and Renault. My other complaint was with the gearchange quality in this car which was verging on the unpleasant, particularly between first and second. In fairness, this gearbox failed outright a few months later and was replaced under warranty, although I didn't think its replacement was much different, if at all.
Great drivers car though, with beautifully sorted handling and a lovely sense of balance. I can see why they are so popular. I didn't find the ride anywhere near as bad on the bling wheels and runflats as I'd read about. It was firm, certainly, but not uncomfortable. Body control on a fast, undulating B-road was first class. I thought it was a fair trade off.
Even though this was the range topping M-Sport model, I thought the interior very bland, although it did have a very nice set of Alcantara trimmed "sports" seats, which were comfy and supportive.
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The other obvious feature of the car was the automatic switching off of engine when stationary, in neutral, clutch pedal not depressed.
Seemed jolly sensible to me, but the "owner" (actually a company car) insisted on sitting with foot on clutch, not wishing to be at the mercy of the car. I asked what made her think she was a better automotive designer than the nice people at BMW...
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 27 Sep 10 at 17:04
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>> The other obvious feature of the car was the automatic switching off of engine when
>> stationary, in neutral, clutch pedal not depressed.
>>
>> Seemed jolly sensible to me, but the "owner" (actually a company car) insisted on sitting
>> with foot on clutch, not wishing to be at the mercy of the car. I
>> asked what made her think she was a better automotive designer than the nice people
>> at BMW...
>>
I don't think that things are as open-and-shut as you make out with this stop-start technology.
Nobody knows the long term effect of using it yet on battery life, starter motors, clutches and so on.
Several items of automotive engineering have been hurridly rushed into production in recent years so as to
a) gain an edge over competitors
b) keep up with competitors
c) comply with ever stricter "green" legislation.
Frequently cited examples of this sort of thing are the dreaded DPF and dual-mass flywheel.
Though I agree with you that I would not ordinarily second guess BMW-engineering (only their taste).
Last edited by: Londoner on Mon 27 Sep 10 at 17:22
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>> Frequently cited examples of this sort of thing are the dreaded DPF
First introduced by Mercedes in 1985.
>> and dual-mass flywheel.
First introduced by Mercedes in 1983.
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>> >> Frequently cited examples of this sort of thing are the dreaded DPF
>>
>> First introduced by Mercedes in 1985.
>>
>>
>> >> and dual-mass flywheel.
>>
>> First introduced by Mercedes in 1983.
>>
>>
Exactly - but there is a big difference in Mercedes-quality engineering from the 1980's, and engineering from mass-produced brands right now.
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"Exactly - but there is a big difference in Mercedes-quality engineering from the 1980's, and engineering from mass-produced brands right now"
Yes: Modern mass produced technology is far superior..
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I had 4 of the "old" E class mercedes (W124). They seemed to be machined from the solid and were built by engineers who didn't care what the accountants thought, since then there seems to have been a general decline in the perceived quality of Mercs although I am told that it has picked up in the last few years
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...I am told that it has picked up in the last few years...
I was with someone who was test driving a B class a few months back.
The quality of the trim and fittings was about equal to a Ford or Vauxhall.
Thoroughly unremarkable car.
Apart from the price.
Never worth the premium over rival mass-producers.
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>> "Exactly - but there is a big difference in Mercedes-quality engineering from the 1980's, and
>> engineering from mass-produced brands right now"
>>
>> Yes: Modern mass produced technology is far superior..
>>
And your evidence for this is...?
Even Toyota have been getting bad publicity recently for the quality of their engineering (remember the "unstoppable" problem?). You would not have seen that a few years ago. My mates Yaris has had no end of problems, but a Corolla we had years ago was totally reliable.
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>> Even Toyota have been getting bad publicity recently for the quality of their engineering (remember
>> the "unstoppable" problem?). You would not have seen that a few years ago.
You would, actually, Audi had the same problem for very similar reasons in the US in the 80s. An unfortunate combination of tub thumping senators, people looking for an easy buck and ambulance chasing attorneys. It took decades for Audi to recover their reputation:
www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-07-14-toyota14_ST_N.htm
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!I don't think that things are as open-and-shut as you make out with this stop-start technology.
Nobody knows the long term effect of using it yet on battery life, starter motors, clutches and so on"
Hmm.. Toyota have been using stop start technology for at least 10 years... long enough to know very well.
My 2003 Yaris Handbook has about 6 pages on stop/start and how to drive it.
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A mate of mine in Germany had a VW Golf Mk2 back sometime in the Stone Age with start/ stop technology. Problem was when the engine switched off, so did everything else, so you froze in the winter and the windows misted up. Also it felt like an age before the engine started again.
The BMW system allows the ventilation to continue working and restarts if there is a risk of the battery becoming too discharged. It also restarts incredibly quickly. I just wish they would fit it on cars with automatic transmission.
People who don't like this technology beware - the manufacturers are working on next generation systems that start and stop the engine whilst the car is in motion!
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>> systems that start and stop the engine whilst the car is in motion!
We used to do that in Cortinas to cause a deliberate backfire. I know, I know...
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...We used to do that in Cortinas to cause a deliberate backfire...
Until Ford began fitting ignition key controlled steering column locks.
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...even done it on one of those, you just had to choose a straight bit. Why am I admitting this on here....
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But did they lock if you didn't take the key out? I think perhaps they did. A backfire of any sort, under a bridge or in the Blackwall tunnel, was a good laugh!
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Best was silently running up behind groups of rival rugby supporters after Murrayfield matches and "letting one go". Anyway I'm going to shut up now in case Mappy gets cross...
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I think most of the criticisms above are merely a question of the cars being "new " to the driver and then needeing to get used to the car. On all but "poverty spec" BMs the seat adjustment is on the side of the seat near the door and most have electric operation. The six speed gearbox requires a really positive shove to get it into reverse and I would suggest that it's v difficult to get reverse instead of first, though I do agree that the "lift up collar" is a good idea. As for 6 speed boxes - I do remember when we got our current car that the comment "are you not going to bother with with top" was a common one by me (when wife driving) and wife (when me driving!). Now we are used to it the comment is no longer necessary - strikes me that 6th is like the old overdrive on some cars - remember that?
Stop-start I think is great - engine starts before the clutch is fully depressed and, to be honest, I find it makes very little difference, if any, to the way you "set off" from a halt.
Modern auto boxes are brilliant. I was always a "manual" man (!) in the old days - auto was sluggish, slow, uneconomical etc but these modern 6 or 7 speed boxes are so smooth and quick that I honestly don't see why, if you have the money, you would choose a manual, especially since you can knock them into "sport" mode or manual sequential. The nature of my job means I drive quite a few brand new cars (there's a lovely 520d auto outside the house at the moment and I have delivered a few 3 series in all sorts of spec). I have never been a great BM fan but I must say I'm most impressed by them - performance, comfort (not sure they do "plasticky" upholstery!) handling, economy (50 mpg from a 320d? and a 520 so far) etc - cracking cars - just wish I could afford one!! (except to drive in the snow - Porsches are worse though!!!)
Sorry for long post!
Phil
PS - Does my 10 year old, 120 k mile Xantia have one of those dual mass flywheeely things? Hope it doesn't go wrong.
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Lovely car to drive, especially with the auto box in my humble that suits it down to its cotton socks.
Agree about the interior though, grim place with acres of black plastic, though they do stand up well to wear and tear.
As mentioned, hopeless on those rock solid runflats in the extreme cold but anyone with any sense would make provision.
I have mixed feelings about 6 speed boxes not enjoying gearchanging in cars at all, but there's someting very seductive about cruising along at 70 at about 1700 rpm in 6th.
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A colleague who lives in Norway told me he's never used the 6th gear on his Mondeo. In Norway there's an 80km/h speed limit which, apart from turning the motoring public into zombies, obviates the need for a 6th speed.
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I have a 520d with the 6 speed gearbox. After a 5 speed Volvo diesel I find I miss the 5 speeder a lot. I have to change gear so much more now.
As for the different location of reverse I dont find this a problem. My wifes Almera has reverse on the opposite side of the gate and it seem to always remember which car has it where.
Having said that I find myself automatically going to put her car into reverse when I am thinking I am changing up into 6th, which of course her car does not have. I can testify it starts to make a graunching noise and this (combined with her clipping me behind the ear), reminds me to stick to the 5th gear! :)
I hired a van to go from Sussex to Wales and back and spent both trips regularly doing the same thing. I was lucky not to blow up the gearbox. God it makes a nasty noise!
The old Vauxhall lift-up knob before engaging reverse was the best. Mark 1 Astra. Fab car.....
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>>I think most of the criticisms above are merely a question of the cars being "new " to the
>>driver and then needeing to get used to the car.
Ho hum. You may well be right. If so, then that is a major criticism of the car designer.
A car should be easy to pick up the keys and drive off in if you've never driven it before. The BMW isn't.
Even the indicators needed a fight as they didn't cancel in a logical fashion.
I've driven some tens of different cars over the years. There's no way I could have driven that BMW if I'd been picking it up in the dark in the distant corner of a hire-car carpark.
There's such a thing as a car designer being too clever.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 29 Sep 10 at 18:41
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It's not exact;y rocket science M, all the basic functions are clear and work the way I would expect in a modern car. I did not find any of the basic stuff complicated when I got mine in March, or when I drove the test example a few months before.
A 2 minute cockpit familiarisation, which I do with any car I am driving for the first time is plenty.Also, there is better interior lighting than most to sort things out in a dark car park.
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Some people find as they grow older, their reflexes slow down and they do things by rote. Changes are impoossible for their brain to deal with as it requires conscious thought- last tried a decade or so ago...
I think the medical term is "early senility".
Fortunately a regime of exercise - both physical and mental - and healthy eating delays the symptoms into your 80s....
:-)
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There's more to ergonomics than instant familiarity, though. The Verso's gearchange, reverse apart, is actually one of its better features. It has a lot of other functions - audio, cruise control, wiper delay, climate control, even the odometer - that I can work well enough after driving the thing for two years, but which all take more effort, care or thought than their equivalents in my Volvo. It all adds up to more driver fatigue on a long journey, and that's why ergonomics matter.
In the case of the Verso, it's a smart, spacious, well-engineered family transport that's pleasant to be driven in. But I don't actually like it much and the poor ergonomics have a lot to do with that.
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"and healthy eating delays the symptoms into your 80s...."
Too late for me then!
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Of course it's not rocket science. But it's a retrograde step.
But on EVERY car I've ever driven the indicators have worked in the same way. Hold down gently for a couple of ticks; push right down for turning; clear if you change your mind about turning; after you've turned the corner there's an obvious visual and audible clue as they cancel.
So why do BMW think that it's sensible to have a completely different system - that lacks the final feature? How is that progress?
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BMW 3-Series E90 - 320 D - had a drive of one - madf
