Motoring Discussion > F1 and general motorsport discussion - Vol 38
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 87

 F1 and general motorsport discussion - Vol 38 - VxFan

As the title suggests, a place to discuss Formula One, and all other types of motorsport (excluding MotoGP, which has a section of its own).


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Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 11 Dec 21 at 21:27
 Abu Dhabi - Robin O'Reliant
C4 are in negotiations with Sky about showing the race live on Sunday.

Fingers crossed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 8 Dec 21 at 13:38
 Abu Dhabi - Robin O'Reliant
Now confirmed, the full race will be shown live on C4.
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
Excellent, thanks. I've got use of my daughters Sky Sports login to watch via Virgin but you have no rewind or pause capability.

Mind you, it was a stunning picture from the last GP. Looked like 4k or better but it can't have been as my gear isn't that good!!

14:00 start I believe
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
If Verstappen can't get in front and bolt, I think he'll end up taking Hamilton and himself out. He just has to avoid being docked points or disqualified.

I find it odd that whilst he is almost certainly as good in the car control department as Hamilton, or even better, he is currently the dirtiest driver in the formula. A bit like Schumacher (Michael) I suppose.
 Abu Dhabi - Kevin
>..he is currently the dirtiest driver in the formula.

No, it just appears that way because he's singled out for punishment.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59593834
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
>>No, it just appears that way because he's singled out for punishment.

Hmmm. I thought Hamilton was characterised as be the cry-baby?

Yes, others do stuff without being penalised. So does Verstappen - see Brazil. But of course he cites that too, but as evidence that he is now being picked on.

There's a pattern of behaviour with Max which to me isn't so apparent with others and suggests he is very deliberately testing the boundaries. Do it once or twice, and it's less clear that it is calculated and deliberate. In his case there's no doubt. Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

Nobody really wants absolutely hard rules, because there are grey areas and hard cases. Uncertainty about rules is bad, but discretion is necessary when no two incidents are exactly the same, and not every transgression is a deliberate professional foul.

Of course I am guilty of motivated reasoning, I have taken against Verstappen and would quite like to see Hamilton win another championship - but not by cheating.

I think it's a virtual certainty that there will be more doubtful lunges or off track excursions from Max on Sunday unless something befalls one or the other of them that keeps them apart.
 Abu Dhabi - No FM2R
>>A bit like Schumacher (Michael) I suppose.

Very similar, I think. A line drawn in slightly the wrong place. I doubt he's actually an 'evil' person and I expect him to straighten it out going forward. But he hasn't shown himself in the best light of late.
 Abu Dhabi - henry k
Hamilton fastest in second practice

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59612265
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
Interesting and very successful tactics from Red Bull in quallies to get Verstappen on pole. I see the race director has given some very explicit "guidance" which should make it a clean, and very exciting, contest.

I think Max will fly off at the start on the soft tyres but Lewis will reel him in later in the race but will end up remaining second.

I'm looking forward to the race. On Ch 4, 13:00.
 Abu Dhabi - Zero
WTF! Jezuz Mary Joeseph and the wee little Donquis! Never saw that happening.
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
Much bad feeling. Why did they only let 4 or 5 of the lapped cars through? And that after they said that lapped cars would not be let through?

 Abu Dhabi - Zero
This will be decided in court.
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
That was my immediate thought but I doubt it'll get that far and even if it does I think the outcome will remain the same.

I reckon there will be some serious work going on over the next 90 days in reviewing and clarifying the rules.

What an exciting end to the season though. Certainly one of the better seasons of recent years, even if there has been some dodgy racing/decisions along the way. Hats off to the drivers and their teams!!
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 12 Dec 21 at 15:05
 Abu Dhabi - Bobby
It’s still not finished…..
 Abu Dhabi - Bobby
The Netflix series for this season will be fantastic viewing….
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
Mercedes has protested, but as the FIA is effectively the defendant, judge and jury I don't see it changing much.

The excuse for the unconventional end to the safety car seems to be that the Race Director sought to provide one lap of racing, rather than the anticlimax of ending under the safety car. Unfortunately the outcome after that was a foregone conclusion and given the regulations were broken bring it about, Mercedes will feel they have a point.

All one can say is that it's a bit of a lottery anyway.
 Abu Dhabi - Runfer D'Hills
I think the "referee" made the wrong decision.

But, he was the referee on the day, and the result should stand. If there are to be repercussions, they should be aimed at Massi, not the drivers or teams.

What an exciting season though eh? Been glued to it for the first time in years in our house.
 Abu Dhabi - Kevin
>I think the "referee" made the wrong decision.

I think Massi got thrown in at the deep end and hasn't been forceful enough. He's allowed the Team Principals to browbeat him into too many inconsistent decisions this season and both Wolff and Horner have taken advantage of that. Horner took it one step further by his incessant whining to the media and should have been told to STFU or risk sanctions.

Oh, and Damon Hill gets on my wick as well.
 Abu Dhabi - Terry
Exciting yes - but also a complete shambles.

Perhaps the new goal is to eliminate fair competition, driving skill and engineering, and reduce F1 to the motoring equivalent of Buster Keaton or Laurel & Hardy movies.
 Abu Dhabi - tyrednemotional
>> Horner took it one step further by his incessant whining to the media and should have been told to STFU
>> or risk sanctions.

...he's not known as Whinger Spice for nothing.....
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
C4 is staying with it for the decision on the protests. Masi/stewards/whomever have already thrown out the protest about Verstappen overtaking under the SC. Decision on the procedural protest expected imminently.

Won't necessarily stop there being appeals.
 Abu Dhabi - henry k
It is the Pantomime season.
 Abu Dhabi - Kevin
Looks like the Mercedes protests have been rejected.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear rumours in the next few days of Mercedes threatening to withdraw from F1 when their commitments end.
 Abu Dhabi - henry k

www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-stewards-dismiss-mercedes-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-protests-as-team.Q8StGwXFdORYlI32Jggoz.html
 Abu Dhabi - Robin O'Reliant
Unlike in other sports, the rules in F1 seem to be made up as they go along.
 Abu Dhabi - VxFan
Finally worked out what "B L M" means.

Beaten Last Minute.

Anyway

i.ibb.co/LQjPSq4/Hamilton.jpg
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
There is a reason that *all* of the lapped cars have to get to the back of the snake and line up before the SC ends. They are still in a race too.

If 5 cars were let through, when did they start racing? And what about the 8th car, which should have been in a position to attack the 7th?

There is no way they looked at that properly and considered the ramifications.
 Abu Dhabi - bathtub tom
None of the lapped cars that weren't allowed to pass the safety car were in a points scoring position, nor were they likely to be after one more lap. If they were allowed to pass the safety car, then it was likely the race would have finished behind the safety car and all their positions would have been maintained, again making no difference to points.

I think Masi had an almost impossible decision. OK, it was controversial, but it made a hell of an interesting last lap. He was the race director. Anyone who's been a scoring marshal on motor events will be aware they're a 'marshal of fact' and there's no appeal against their decisions.
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
It was wrong IMO because, through whatever method (be it tactics, superior car, superior driving etc) Mercedes and Lewis had the victory and consequently the driver championship in the bag, and were robbed of it on a dodgy decision.

Had the decision been clear cut and in line with the rules then it would have been unfortunate but unchallengeable.

Red Bull and Max were gifted it in a way that simply ought not have happened.
 Abu Dhabi - Zero
there is an element of "screwed it up" by Mercedes. Lewis himself questioned staying out on badly worn tyres several times during the race, and the late pace car was his fear and possibility, and it hit them with Lewis on badly worn tyres,
 Abu Dhabi - Bromptonaut
>> there is an element of "screwed it up" by Mercedes. Lewis himself questioned staying out
>> on badly worn tyres several times during the race, and the late pace car was
>> his fear and possibility, and it hit them with Lewis on badly worn tyres,

Would he have been able to hold off Verstappen but for his tyres?

Although I was interested yesterday because of the knife edge contest I've no knowledge/view either way.

Guardian is reporting that a named Lawyer thinks it could go to court:

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/dec/13/lawyer-warns-fia-abu-dhabi-decision-could-be-overturned-in-court
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
You mean in the same situation but if Lewis had better tyres?

I think he'd have been able to resist. KERS wasn't in play so Verstappen's car had no real advantage. The main risk would have been from a desperate lunge by Verstappen running him or both of them out of the race.
 Abu Dhabi - Bromptonaut
>> You mean in the same situation but if Lewis had better tyres?

That exactly. There seems to be a weight of opinion that Lewis missed a trick not pitting for new and different tyres while the safety car was out.
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
AFAIR he didn't have any completely unused ones but some only had light use.

As someone has said, he already queried the decision with his team at the time it didn't happen. I supposed doing so would have brought him and Max closer together for a longer time whereas Mercedes thought they could scamper off, which they managed to do.

It is often all on the roll of a dice but this one went particularly badly for them. I doubt anyone would have foreseen what actually happened... and it really ought not have happened in the way it did.

 Abu Dhabi - martin aston
I wanted LH to win but I think they need to accept the result.
F1 has several arbitrary rules which seem designed to introduce a random element and shake things up a bit. Compulsory tyre changes, the ability to get a cheap pit stop under safety cars, time or grid penalties that can be disastrous or meaningless depending on how close the race is, double points in the last race a couple of years ago, safety cars versus virtual safety cars. No doubt there are others but the random element is designed into many of them presumably in part to open up tactical opportunities for the teams and make it less predicable. At least in theory.
We simply saw an extreme example of the rules and interpretation yesterday.
To paraphrase the race director "That's F1 motor racing". It's all part of the F1 game and gets people talking.
 Abu Dhabi - Runfer D'Hills
If you were a cynic, or imagined for one moment that F1 was first and foremost a business run for profit, you might be forgiven for speculating that some of it this year was orchestrated to draw as much attention and press to the sport as possible after a period of years of waning public interest in it.
But of course, as I said, that would just be cynicism…
;-)
 Abu Dhabi - Boxsterboy
I know of a few people who have little interest in F1 but watched this race because of all the hype. And they are all saying they won't watch F1 again because the rules weren't followed, making the sport a farce. F1 has shot itself in the foot in the chase for ratings.
 Abu Dhabi - No FM2R
>> I know of a few people who have little interest in F1 but watched this
>> race because of all the hype. And they are all saying they won't watch F1
>> again because the rules weren't followed, making the sport a farce. F1 has shot itself
>> in the foot in the chase for ratings.
>>

I wholeheartedly agree with this.
 Abu Dhabi - henry k
Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 'tarnishing image' of F1, says sport's governing body

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59675264


 Abu Dhabi - Kevin
BBC also having a subtle little dig at Red Bull over their newly found sympathy for Masi when Horner's been taking swipes at him in the media for most of the season.

It isn't just the events at Abu Dhabi that have been a problem though. The whole season has seen oddly inconsistent interpretation of rules and personality clashes played out in the media. It's been more like an episode of Love Island*,** than F1.

*. Not that I've ever seen it you understand.

**. I wonder if Horner volunteered to play the bitchy, spurned girlfriend or whether he lost rock, paper, scissors to Toto?)
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
SWMBO tells me that she's read (probably in online Mail!) that the newly knighted Lewis has asked Mercedes to not appeal.

I reckon he realises that he has morally already won and to challenge it would simply make him look like a bad loser. He also knows the views of much of the racing fraternity. So better to be magnanimous in defeat.

The FIA have said they will review the season and learn from it.
 Abu Dhabi - VxFan
Hamilton has also been omitted from this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year.
 Abu Dhabi - No FM2R
I'm surprised that's still a thing in today's climate of hating and taking offense

It had some relevance 30 yrs ago, but I'm not so sure these days.
 Abu Dhabi - Bromptonaut
>> Hamilton has also been omitted from this year's BBC Sports Personality of the Year.

So has cyclist Mark Cavendish.

I think it will be a walkover for Radonucu.
 Abu Dhabi - No FM2R

>> I think it will be a walkover for Radonucu.

Not that it matters much, but it's "Raducanu".
 Abu Dhabi - Lygonos
18yr old, cracked at Wimbledon after exceeding everyone's expectations, blew away everyone at the US without dropping a set.

Only Michael Masi can steal it from Radacanu.
 Abu Dhabi - Lygonos
And Radacanu it is.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/59687576
 Abu Dhabi - henry k
>>The FIA have said they will review the season and learn from it.

FIA aware of new Michael Masi title-decider radio messages
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60318052
 Abu Dhabi - smokie
I read that Masi is unlikely to be race director this year.

Also saw a proposal that there is a remote "backroom" of experts giving the race director advice in real time, as the FIA believed that there is too much responsibility and decision making vested in one person.

Motor racing aficionados that I know were happy with the outcome last year and thought it fair. The argument being no-one wants to see a race, let alone a championship, end under a safety car. But once in a while they let their anti-Lewis'ness shows.
 Abu Dhabi - Robin O'Reliant
>> I
>>
>> Motor racing aficionados that I know were happy with the outcome last year and thought
>> it fair. The argument being no-one wants to see a race, let alone a championship,
>> end under a safety car. But once in a while they let their anti-Lewis'ness shows.
>>

What do they say about the Belgian GP which was run for only two laps, both under the safety car and the "Result" allowed to stand?

It stinks.
 Abu Dhabi - Manatee
>>It stinks.

Of course it does. It was a decision made on the hoof, after Jonathan Wheatley "told" Masi he didn't have to unlap all the lapped cars, just the ones between Hamilton and Verstappen.

He also ended the safety car one lap earlier than the rules specify.

I'd guess there was a point, probably when Verstappen romped past Hamilton, that Masi realised he had been manipulated into a major error.

I've never felt that ending under a safety car was especially bad - unless somebody has dropped themselves back by pitting, the cars are all in race order. Arguably a resumption is less fair because any gaps that have been arduously worked for have been closed up.

Arguably this effects of this even out over a season, but it's really only fair if the rules are applied consistently. It's almost undeniable that, had the rules been followed, Hamilton would have won the race and the championship. Masi will be painfully aware of that I imagine.
 Abu Dhabi - PR
Undoutably you are right on the rules being followed in a consistent manner, then Hamiton would have won

Few things Id say on events leading up to that

There was a conversation between Wolff, Horner and Masi on the saturday where they discussed trying to avoid finishing behind a safety car

Also Wolff was also on the radio to Masi "telling" him what not to do (and was earlier in the race when Giovanazzi went off).

And if on that split second decision they had pitted Hamilton and Verstappen hadnt and got track position then both of the team bosses would have been on to Masi saying the exact opposite of what they did say.

It was an unpleasant end to a gripping title battle.

The other thing I read was that Merc eventually dropped their legal case as the likely outcome would have been to void the last race and therefore Verstappen would have been champ anyway

 Hamilton to be penalised? - bathtub tom
For not attending the awards ceremony at the end of the season. Apparently, it's written into their contracts that the top three drivers must attend. Lewis and Toto skipped it in protest at the Abu Dhabi decisions.
 Hamilton to be penalised? - smokie
I saw that. Somewhat ironic that the FIA said they were being penalised for breaking the rules.
 Hamilton to be penalised? - helicopter
Appatently Lewis has decided to retire from F1 so he can pursue a career in music.
His application to join the group Musical Youth was rejected on the basis that he could not pass the Dutchie on the left hand side...
 DNF for Masi - tyrednemotional
..just been bin-bagged, apparently...
 DNF for Masi - PR
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60418716

Yes... in a widely predicted move he has or will be offered a new role in the FIA
 DNF for Masi - Zero
"direct radio communications between the teams and the race director will no longer be allowed."

This has been long needed.
 DNF for Masi - Robin O'Reliant
IMO the only radio comms direct to drivers should be from race control regarding safety issues. If a team has concerns over a problem with a car then they should inform the race director who would pass the message on. Tactics and the state of the race ought to be down to the drivers to work out for themselves.
 DNF for Masi - John Boy
For the first time in a long while I watched that race and I was amazed to hear the radio dialogue between the teams and the race director. I had no idea that went on.
 DNF for Masi - Rudedog
Bring back pit boards!
 DNF for Masi - Robin O'Reliant
>> Bring back pit boards!
>>
>>

Moto GP manages ok with that.
 Bahrain GP - bathtub tom
WOW!

The first few laps sounded interesting enough to make me watch the highlights, but the end..........................

I was listening to R5 commentary.
 Bahrain GP - Zero
Watched it on a live feed. Yup the ending was dramatic, but whats important in the ways the cars can now compete at speed when close to one another under the new aero rules.

With Ferrari on form, red bull new engine unknowns, and Mercedes trying to catch up it looks promising.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 20 Mar 22 at 17:20
 Bahrain GP - Manatee
For some reason I found the closing laps very satisfying.

The winning driver played a blinder.
 Bahrain GP - Runfer D'Hills
Just watched highlights on Ch4

Wow indeed, hooked again for this season !

Let’s just say, the driver I favour did way better than I expected, and the one I don’t so much, well, he didn’t…
;-)
 Saudi GP - bathtub tom
I sincerely hope he's OK, but WHAT!
Could be a very interesting race, with the overtaking limitations.
 Saudi GP - smokie
He certainly hit the sides very hard... His mum must be wishing the family were more "ordinary" in their ambitions!
 Saudi GP - Manatee
Schumacher has actually qualified in the top 10, but the odds must be against him starting as they don't have spare cars these days, although they might have most of the bits (in uncrashed form).

I'm hoping for some fireworks from Hamilton although it seems likely that he hasn't the car for it this season.

Verstappen looked a bit irked to me, almost as if being 3 places behind Perez has got under his skin. I do hope so.

Interesting dynamic with Sainz and LeClerc, although I think Ferrari will manage things so that they don't end up trying to use the same bit of tarmac, especially if LeClerc gets away in front. LeClerc is fast, and clever. When Verstappen passed him 3 times at Bahrain in turn 1, LeClerc had braked early for turn one to put Max ahead before the DRS point so he could get back in front at turn 4.
 Saudi GP - bathtub tom
Listened to the R5 commentary, so I'll probably watch the latter half of the highlights.
 Saudi GP - Bobby
Great race!
 Saudi GP - Zero
it was, nopt quite like the old days but good
 Saudi GP - Manatee
They should now bin DRS. the leaders both nearly stopped yesterday in their fight to be second across the DRS line. Ridiculous.
 Saudi GP - Zero
>> They should now bin DRS. the leaders both nearly stopped yesterday in their fight to
>> be second across the DRS line. Ridiculous.

no DRS, no overtaking. It may have got a little tactical, but that was merely the last act of an exciting couple of laps jousting twice per lap.

DRS did its job and did it well
 Saudi GP - Manatee
We'll see. DRS was introduced because it was difficult to follow closely and impossible without destroying the tyres. Now they can get much closer.

Removing DRS would certainly reduce overtaking but if what happened yesterday becomes a normal tactic it will have to go. It's happened in 2/2 races this season. At Bahrain LeClerc let MV past 3 times on successive laps and repassed him immediately. Now that MV, who I would describe as quick and cunning rather than intelligent, has cottoned on we have seen what happens.
 Saudi GP - smokie
I have thought for some time that it now gives the tailing driver an overly artificial advantage, which they said yesterday was 16kph (i.e. 10mph). That's what causes the gaming we saw yesterday. Either get rid or significantly reduce the advantage.

I do like the racing it brings and it has worked well till recently so maybe this years design changes (one of which I believe allows the following cars to be suffer less from the bad air) have changed it's application.

EDIT: I was busy typing this as manatee posted his second, with which I entirely agree.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 28 Mar 22 at 09:22
 Saudi GP - PR
In the race last night the DRS was amplified by the fact there was a DRS zone leading upto the last corner aswell.. that meant that arriving at that last corner the man behind should probably have overtaken easily.. then been a sitting duck on the next straight.

A tweak to the zone would solve it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 N24 this weekend - Rudedog
Just to say that this weekend is the 50th running of the N24 race.

For me this is the type of racing that I enjoy the most and really hope that the weather is kind to them as it can make such a difference.

Great that the whole race can be seen via various YT channels with English commentary and I usually have it playing live for the whole race.

 N24 this weekend - smokie
I'm a bit late with this but you can watch it live on YouTube.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVjTSBefDjU
 Isle of Man TT 2022 - Duncan
First for three years. TV coverage starts on Thursday June 2nd ITV4

tinyurl.com/2uszubzc
 Monaco - smokie
The racing isn't so good at Monaco but the spectacle usually is. There are some odd decisions coming out of the new race command structure - as well as an apparent lack of understanding of some of the rules - but the event which caught my eye was Schumacher's car breaking cleanly in two. I was a heavy impact but to see the rear wheels separated from the car was unexpected. Still, he walked away from it so all was good.

There are rumblings that it may be the last Monaco, which would be a shame but not really a surprise.
 Monaco - Bobby
Would be surprised if it’s the last Monaco.

The sponsors and teams all love it. I suspect the drivers just think of it as a chore to keep the paymasters happy.
 Monaco - VxFan
>> I suspect the drivers just think of it as a chore to keep the paymasters happy.

There is the added bonus that most of the drivers don't have very far to commute home afterwards ;)
 Monaco - Zero
Its not in the calendar as a proper race, its not there as a sporting spectacle, it exists merely to entertain the sponsors and keep them happy.

F1 financials are unthinkable without it.
 Monaco - Manatee
Apparently there's quite a lot the FIA doesn't like about Monaco and not much of it is about the racing. It seems to be a 'control' thing with Liberty Media.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61621261

The packaged nature of F1, i.e. the business model invented by Ecclestone, has detracted from its appeal to me for a long time. It won't get any better
 Monaco - maltrap
If Flavio Briatori says it will happen in 2 weeks ie signing a new deal.
It probably will happen !
 Monaco - Zero
>> Apparently there's quite a lot the FIA doesn't like about Monaco and not much of
>> it is about the racing. It seems to be a 'control' thing with Liberty Media.

Funnily enough, right now, there is not much F1 likes about the FIA. To the extent, the need of the FIA is being questioned. F1 can run without it.
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