I was reading reviews of Toyota Rav4 hybrids on Parker's, and a bod reckons the batteries weigh 180kg
which (I believe) is 28 stone!
Is that correct, or do I need to go back to (approved) skool?
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Probably about correct, Dog.
18kWh pack plus whatever cooling system it has would be 150+kg
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Of course charging them puts the weight up LOL
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Well, that's put me orf hybrid cars then. What with that and the limited speed/distance on leccie power.
28 stone is more-than 2 of me!
Also, I hear the govs electric car grant could be, um, cut off, so I'm staying fossil :)
But even that has been mucked about with - I'm (definitely) getting 2 mpg less on E10.
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I can understand why folk are nervous about range in a full EV. I would be too.
However a hybrid covers this concern - it will revert to ICE when the battery is flat.
The efficiency of any car depends on aerodynamics and weight. Driving style and roads are user generated. Fundamentally fuel efficiency will be worse in a hybrid mainly due to the additional weight of batteries and associated technology.
Hybrids may only be a stop gap solution. In 10 years time the transition to full electric will be in full swing, and the charging networks and battery technology will need to have improved.
So why buy a hybrid now. It may make little environmental sense - but it could make economic sense depending on circumstances. A (say) 50 mile range may cover needs on a day to day basis, bar 5-15 times a year for significantly longer trips.
So plug in electricity at cheap rates may justify the cost of a hybrid. The only effort involved is plugging it in every couple days, and visiting the fuel stop less frequently.
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 13 Oct 21 at 12:04
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>>Fundamentally fuel efficiency will be worse in a hybrid mainly due to the additional weight of >>batteries and associated technology.
I couldn't understand why hybrids were so much more economical than ICE, when they're lugging all that extra weight around. They will get a little power from regenerative braking, but the driver would have to be very heavy on the brakes to get a great advantage.
I then read that, certainly Toyota hybrids, use the Atkinson cycle for their ICE. It made sense.
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>>A (say) 50 mile range may cover needs on a day to day basis, bar 5-15 times a year for significantly longer trips.
Do hybrids have a range of 50 miles? That sort of range would be fine for me, from next Spring.
The vehicles handling comes into question too - driver and 4 passengers + 28 stone!!
I'll have to have a read of:
www.autoexpress.co.uk/hybrid-cars/86211/best-hybrid-cars-buy-2021
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>> The vehicles handling comes into question too - driver and 4 passengers + 28 stone!!
The batteries are placed very low down in the vehicle (car floor level) to give a low centre of gravity.
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>>The batteries are placed very low down in the vehicle (car floor level) to give a low centre of gravity.
28 stone is 10 sacks of coal, almost :(
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I was going to say a few years ago, but it turns out it’s almost 6 since I bought it, we had an A3 e-tron. There’s a thread on here somewhere about it. That’d do just under 30 miles on a charge, but it’d also only take an hour so to charge from a 32A charger. It was a brilliant car…most local journeys are under 10 miles, and plugging it in when at home meant it was always ready to go. But on the occasions it went on longer journeys the combination of recovered energy, the battery and ‘sailing’ (using the battery/electric motor to maintain a steady speed when on motorways / dual carriageways) meant it was more economical than the ICE only version.
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>>we had an A3 e-tron
Good shout, there's 9 on Autotrader. I shall research further.
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I think it's closer to 140kg* difference in weight between, say, an LE and an LE Hybrid.
But why would you care?
*22 Stone ish
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 13 Oct 21 at 13:48
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>>But why would you care?
"Too much to carry around with you" (line from a Jethro Tull song)
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Why not, this is a nice looking one.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185095870504
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I tuned and road tested plenty of Scimitars. They didn't do a lot for me tbh. Ford V6 lump.
Plus the fact I'm rather fond of 5 star Euro NCAP cars. A Scimitar would be lucky to get 1 star.
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You suggested them.
Perhaps battery weight is not very important after all.
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>>Perhaps battery weight is not very important after all
Indeed - "even on the open road the e-tron performs strongly and doesn't feel cumbersome, despite the addition of 125kg in batteries".
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Similar weight penalty having 4wd over 2wd I suspect.
We had a 225xe, Dog. Not a car I'd want our of warranty but a decent buggy - very solid, nippy and 4wd when running in Hybrid mode (petrol front motor, EV rear).
15-20 miles on electric suited the gaffer's commute and we took it on a few several hundred mile jaunts where it averaged 40-45mpg driven briskly.
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I had to look up 225xe, Doc. There's so many different makes and models of cars, it's hard to keep up with them all.
I'm quite happy with my Subaru XV, even they do an eBoxer self-charging hybrid now, but my nearest pain dealer is a round trip of 100 miles, unless I go over Dartmoor which can be a tad dodgy in winter.
I quite like the A3 e-tron, but it's got a twin-clutch gearbox in the autos - I'm fine with that as I've driven mopeds to 7 ton lorries, but if there was any sign of hesitancy at junctions when 'the ole woman' was driving it, she would freak!
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Just thinking, a 40 miler electric would probably realistically do 80% or so of my journeys.
Should I get one and then get a big huge thirsty V8 for the other 20%?
Would probably work out cheaper than buying a 300 mile range electric car?
Not sure its in the spirit of things though.........
Last edited by: Bobby on Wed 13 Oct 21 at 20:45
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>> Would probably work out cheaper than buying a 300 mile range electric car?
Two thoughts come to mind;
Surely important though running costs are, purchase price and resale price are vastly more significant.
Secondly, if one really wants a transport purchase decision to be economically sensible then surely the point is don't.
Frankly, I buy something I like driving and flex age if I find the cost unacceptable.
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>>Would probably work out cheaper than buying a 300 mile range electric car?
Now at the point where (almost) 300 mile EVs cost much the same as Plug-in hybrids.
Kia eNiro/Soul are £32.5k with 280miles, MG ZS LR (273 miles) should be a chunk under £30k when prices are out Nov 1st, and MG5 LR (254 miles) is from £23k.
As for resale I think full EV resale values are going to be much better than ICE and hybrid now that the batteries are seen to last more than a few years.
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I just don't get why the weight of batteries in a hybrid, or for that matter pure electric, are an issue of themselves.
Either the package does the job or it does not.
It seems to me that Prius type hybrids are good round town, I guess electric is more efficient in stop start but less so on the open road.
On the pure E thing daughter has had an e208 for a year now but I've not seen it.
Off up there on Friday to meet the new Grandson born on 07/10/21 but might get a ride in the 208 while helping with usual domestic stuff.
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Increasingly, unless you regularly do long journeys, EV will become the default choice. More so as confidence in fast charger availability improves.
Mid size ICE, 10k pa, 40mpg, will cost ~£1500 for fuel. EV will be ~£500 saving £1000.
The new price difference between EV and ICE is becoming smaller. The first owner may spend (say) £25-35k on the purchase - a premium of (say) £4-8k over an EV. They may decide the saving is a bit marginal.
The next owner after 3 years is less likely to lease/PCP and may expect to pay £13-16k.
A saving of £1000 pa becomes more important. It is likely that the trade in value of an EV will be better than the ICE - perhaps by £2-4k. As 2030 ICE ban gets closer, the attractiveness of ICE will likely fall further.
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EV residuals are mental just now - 2018 Soul EV are retailing about £19k.
3 years ago you could buy them for £20k.
While demand is high (likely to be for ever) I can't see any way that buying a new ICE now will be financially more sensible than an equivalent EV.
It may, of course, be a more practical choice for many to buy ICE still, and I expect longer term second-hand ICE will be increasingly bargain priced vs second-hand EV so they won't dissappear until 2045-50 unless legislated out of existence.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 14 Oct 21 at 07:40
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I've raised this elsewhere but what are the newel qualified 17 year old's supposed to buy as their first 'banger' car as EVs take over?
Hopefully there will be a good long-term supply of old sub £500 ICE cars for them to learn their skills in.
Last edited by: Rudedog on Thu 14 Oct 21 at 07:53
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There isn't, and hasn't for a while, been a good supply of sub £500 ICE cars now, let alone the future.
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>>I just don't get why the weight of batteries in a hybrid, or for that matter pure electric, are an issue of themselves.
>>Either the package does the job or it does not.
Well, car manufacturers have been reducing the weight of cars for years now to make them more energy efficient.
I just wouldn't like the idea of carrying an extra 22-28 stone of Li-ion batteries around in my car.
Interesting article here on hybrid cars:
www.which.co.uk/news/2021/03/plug-in-hybrid-cars-use-more-fuel-than-official-figures-claim/
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What do you mean by extra? It's a part of the car in the same a fuel tank is in an ICE car. It doesn't matter what it weighs.
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I wonder when EV (by that I mean battery only) will overtake ICE sales, 10 years? Is there enough capacity in the EV factories to get to that point any earlier?
I think when EV with a genuine range of 200-250 miles gets down to £10/12k then that be the tipping point for large chunks of the population.
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>> What do you mean by extra? It's a part of the car in the same
>> a fuel tank is in an ICE car. It doesn't matter what it weighs.
>>
Also, a pure EV does without the engine and gearbox, which I’d wager weigh more than an electric motor, so the net increase in weight will be less I’m sure
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>>What do you mean by extra
Extra to the weight of an ICE car compared to the hybrid version.
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"I just wouldn't like the idea of carrying an extra 22-28 stone of Li-ion batteries around in my car"
You prefer toting round your 4 stone of highly explosive petrol?
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>> You prefer toting round your 4 stone of highly explosive petrol?
I understand fire brigades have been instructed to let EVs (and presumably hybrids) to burn themselves out. Have you seen the effect of water on lithium? They'll still put out fires in ICE vehicles.
I have seen a demonstration of a fireproof 'coat' that smothers the whole vehicle, thus excluding air. I believe it has to be left in place for hours to allow the fire to cool. Removing it will allow the fire to re-ignite.
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>> >> You prefer toting round your 4 stone of highly explosive petrol?
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>> I understand fire brigades have been instructed to let EVs (and presumably hybrids) to burn
>> themselves out. Have you seen the effect of water on lithium? They'll still put out
>> fires in ICE vehicles.
And EV vehicle motors run on 300-500 volts, high currents are available, a significant risk to emergency responders.
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I realise neither are perfect but I'd say that electricity is less volatile and less likely to be a risk than petrol.
I thought some of the fire brigade stories BT mentioned had been somewhat debunked but maybe not.
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>> I realise neither are perfect but I'd say that electricity is less volatile and less
>> likely to be a risk than petrol.
>>
>>
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>> I thought some of the fire brigade stories BT mentioned had been somewhat debunked but
>> maybe not.
www.bedsfire.gov.uk/Community-safety/Road-safety/Fire-in-Electric-Vehicles.aspx
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>> I realise neither are perfect but I'd say that electricity is less volatile and less
>> likely to be a risk than petrol.
Carrying energy around with you, regardless of its source, is never risk free. The risks however are different, and liquid fuel is a better understood risk, and hence better mitigated - currenly, that will of course change.
Late edit. This could have been a summary of Marks article!
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Oct 21 at 09:50
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>> "I just wouldn't like the idea of carrying an extra 22-28 stone of Li-ion batteries
>> around in my car"
>>
>> You prefer toting round your 4 stone of highly explosive petrol?
My beemer tank when full weighs 49 kilos. Nearly 8 stone.
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Personally I’d prefer toting around a flat 6 lump of metal.
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>> Personally I’d prefer toting around a flat straight 6 lump of metal.
There - fixed that for you.
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>>You prefer toting round your 4 stone of highly explosive petrol?
It's the weight of the batteries that bothers me, not the fire risk. I've never had an accident in a car where the 'highly explosive petrol, um, exploded.
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Cars overall are much heavier than in the past.
With hybrid/EV powertrains extra weight has the same detrimental effect on acceleration as an ICE but significantly less on efficiency - about half of the energy used to accelerate the mass is returned via regeneration versus zero for a non-regenning ICE car.
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My old Rover P6 3500 weighed in at 1,298 kg. How does that compare to today's metal I wonder?
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>> My old Rover P6 3500 weighed in at 1,298 kg. How does that compare to
>> today's metal I wonder?
>>
A Mercedes E350 saloon weighs 1,735Kgs, so a third heavier in round numbers. But the car itself, while nominally in the same class, is almost certainly a lot bigger. A C350 weighs 1,455Kgs, so not that much more all things considered. Though I think cars got heavier and are now perhaps getting lighter agin? Or at least were until electrification!
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>> Or at least were until electrification!
The ideal would be cars that use magnetic levitation. Maybe call them e.Mag. I'm sure it will come, one day :)
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Rover's V8 weighed less than the MGB's 1.8.
Mk1 Fiesta was 750kg - current one is closer to 1100kg.
Bloating dimensions and massively safer body shells account for most of this.
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I had an MGB Roadster too. Tuned a few MGB V8's back in the day. MGC's are vey nice, did 1 or 2:
www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1391934
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The only car I can think of that was available with an ICE, as a PHEV and pure EV was the mark 7 Golf. A quick google shows the following as weights for the respective models:
e-Golf 1,585 Kgs
Golf GTE 1,615 Kgs
Golf 1.5 TSi DSG 1,294 Kgs
So pure EV seems lighter than a hybrid, but quite a bit heavier than ICE. Having said that, there must be compromises in engineering a platform for all three that didn’t exist in a pure EV design. But an iD3 weighs around 1,800 Kgs (and has a range 3 times that of the e-Golf!)
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I learnt a lot from this thread, especially from Lygonos, Peter, and Terry.
If I do decide to buy a hybrid car, it will have to be a plug in but, as Terry pointed out - would I be better orf going for an EV.
I do think it's about time we ditched infernal combustion engines. I quite like the idea of plugging my car in at night and not having it belch out fumes in the morning.
I have driven an EV, only a Peugeot iOn, but I quite enjoyed it. I wouldn't want to spend more than £25k though, which limits my choice of course. Maybe I'll consider used, I always buy low-mileage one-owner 3 year-old cars, usually Jap although I would consider Chinese as a side dish.
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Dog, I think you can pick up a new MG5 for 25k.
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Yup, I've read the threads on the MG EV's, and my nearest MG dealer (Plymouth) is a whole lot nearer than my Subaru dealer in Ashburton, Devon.
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Got mine under the Affinity scheme. "Top of the range" - longer range, all extras (which isn't many), expensive paint for just under £25k.
"Affinity is only available to employees of public sector institutions such as local government, NHS, schools and the emergency services and to qualifying employees of local businesses." but I think almost any Civil Service type role would work.
However no further discounts are available, and probably like many cars, stuff like mats are extras.
I also understood that Affinity has a finite life.
Go and have a test drive Dog, I'm sure you'll be persuaded.
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>>Go and have a test drive Dog, I'm sure you'll be persuaded.
Good idea! .. I have a friend in Plymouth that I haven't seen lately. Busy at the mo tho, having my multi-fuel stove fitted on Monday and I've been laying a cement base in the hearth ready for the fitters.
I was going to finish it with slate = £100. I bought a 60 x 60 dark grey patio slab, cut it to size and stuck that in there.
You wouldn't be able to tell the difference :)
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Was that the one with the 260 mile range ? I think i saw one on AT for 20k but I think that was the bottom of the range with the smaller battery.
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First MG5s arrived with 52kWh batteries and 214 mile official range.
The Long Range ones which are the only ones available to order now have 61kWh batteries and 250 miles WLTP.
They also come with radar cruise control, more safety crap like autobraking, and MG's autopilot which usefully drop the insurance group by 5 points. Not bad for an RRP premium of £1400.
Smokie went for the Long Range.
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Whilst I like the idea of owning a future EV I’m not sure it would work for me IF I take my car overseas for months at a time.
Leaving it outside on a public road every night, no charging facilities in the rented accommodation, driving a fair few miles off the beaten track most days...given those circumstances I’d have to fly and rent a car, where prices have skyrocketed of late.
For 17/02/22- 01/04/22 I’ve been quoted €945 for a Corsa 1.4, pick up Alicante. Normally, over that period, I’d be paying sub €100 through the broker DYS...admittedly my own CDW excess and one, possibly two, changeovers at the airport. Hence I’m considering driving over in the Focus Estate, even thought its £660 return to Santander with Brittany Ferries.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXDa_zu8MNQ
The Carfection guy has done a real world drive of the Audi RS e-tron GT, in the video he mentions about the affects of weight/size on the ride and handling but interestingly he drove from Inverness to MK using the quick charging network (lots of planning), apparently he shows he's calculations but the cost per mile woks out almost exactly the same as an ICE Audi RS model.
Lovely car.
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Having had an EV, I'll unashamedly say the original reason I did was because at the time it was very cheap motoring, and I was prepared to put up with the associated inconvenience.
Then suddenly it wasn't cheap, but still inconvenient, and I went back to ICE.
I priced a replacement car yesterday - the same ICE one as I have now and also the next ICE model up. Just out of interest, as there's no way I can afford a new replacement. The cost - 35k ish - is similar to a few new EVs.
But at my end of the market, buying a used replacement for perhaps 12-15k, there aren't yet any EVs at that price point that are sensible for our regular usage.
So at no point yet has it really crossed my mind to consider an EV again. Can't be doing with thinking "Fancy the Norfolk coast today, might go round as far as Cromer, take a meander back, then divert here and there as the mood takes. Now, how far is that likely to be, can I make that distance? Where are the charging stations, ah, nowhere near where I might be so I have to change my plans. And will they even be working? Will there be an hour long queue? Will they need an app, and have I got it set up and registered? Oh look, it's going to cost me the same in charging as putting in petrol anyway. What if it's really cold? I'll have to watch the range like a hawk..."
Not going to happen. I prefer get in and go.
There might be a little hyperbole in there, but in general EV is still just an unaffordable pain for that kind of stuff.
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Maybe a plug-in hybrid would be a suitable alternative to an EV in your situation, Cc?
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>>Lovely car.
Lovely money!!
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I do get that EVs aren't for everyone and aren't great for all purposes but on the cost per mile issue, my neighbour did a run in his new eNiro from Wokingham to Northumberland for, he reckoned, about 1/3rd of the petrol price.
I suppose a lump of that was charged at home, which is obviously much cheaper.
In a way the car I just got rid of (Ampera) was a great compromise, as most of my motoring is short stuff within the 40 mile electric range but then the ICE kicked in for longer runs.
I am looking forward to getting the full EV but we will be keeping SWMBOs Yaris hybrid and may use that for next year's Europe road trip
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>>Yaris hybrid and may use that for next year's Europe road trip
And therein highlights the compromise when you get a full EV.
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>> Sure did, it looks like this one
>>
>> ev-database.org/car/1526/MG-MG5-EV-Long-Range
>>
What size of car is it? Looks mondeo sized from some angles, astra sized from others.
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Length 4544 about halfway between Astra 4370 and Mondeo 4844
Width 1818 nearer Astra 1809 than Mondeo 1886
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>> Length 4544 about halfway between Astra 4370 and Mondeo 4844
>>
>> Width 1818 nearer Astra 1809 than Mondeo 1886
>>
A reasonable size then, not a looker but fine in a bland far east way. I'll have a look at them in a few years at the LR version when they come down in to my price range.
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Here's an interesting little video from Scotty Kilmer (Yank) on EV's and hybrids:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3eL3I5Dkk
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I watched it as far as when he forgot who the president in 93 was.
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Here's the vid I meant to post, although the other one is interesting (IMO :)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDkYSNCzp5s
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Weight of batteries in hybrid cars - Lygonos
