Motoring Discussion > Single Track Roads Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bromptonaut Replies: 37

 Single Track Roads - Bromptonaut
Currently on holiday in the caravan at Kinlochewe in the Highlands and on the North Coast 500 route. Nice ride out for an hour or so on the Brompton is to take the road to Torridon as far as the top of the pass and return. Tomorrow I may make a longer trip and go all the way to Torridon and beyond; Mrs B wants to spend another day looking round gardens.

What I'm finding trying is the inability of drivers on Single Track Roads to recognise a bike as a vehicle and wait in Passing Places. They just barrel on and expect me to either disappear or dive to my left to make way. Trouble is there's not much margin for error even with a car never mind a campervan, of which there are dozens. The edge of the paved area is indistinct, it's often rough, potholed and/or has a long drop off the edge. I'm unwilling to venture too near the edge where there's also loose gravel to contend with. If I go off the edge of the road it could be a tumble. If they go off they could easily be looking at tyre or suspension damage*.

Is it unreasonable to stay out a metre or more from the edge until they slow down/stop? Been sworn at a couple of times doing that.

No qualm whatever in blocking them if approaching from behind until we get to a passing place.

Am I being unreasonable?

* I wonder if 'undercarriage' damage to a hired motor home is covered.
 Single Track Roads - No FM2R
>>Is it unreasonable to stay out a metre or more from the edge until they slow down/stop? Been sworn at a couple of times doing that.

Assuming that you're in a place where there isn't an easy/safe alternative then I'd do it. I'd rather be sworn at than run off the road.
 Single Track Roads - sooty123
I wouldn't worry about how bikes are classified* or who thinks xyz is reasonable, but what's the safest option.


* From my experience in the countryside, no bikes aren't seen as vehicles, more like pedestrians on a bit of metal. If you don't want to be run over, move over. Just the way it is. Others may have noticed other norms of course.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 24 Aug 21 at 16:01
 Single Track Roads - Manatee
>>Is it unreasonable to stay out a metre or more from the edge until they slow down/stop?

Not at all - plenty of people will flash by at 30, 40 or more inches from if you make enough room by moving into the grit for them.

Never forgetting of course that just being in the right doesn't guarantee safe passage, unfortunately.

I assume she's been to Inverewe Garden then? That was the midgiest place on our NC500 in May 2019. Good though.
 Single Track Roads - Bobby
I’m a keen cyclist.

But if I was being held up on single track roads in my car by a cyclist I really would be questioning WTF made then decide to do this road!

Many parts of NC500 are gridlocked. Folk in hired campers that they don’t know how to drive. Our camping up in passing places. Or whole load of other stories about what is happening.

So I would well avoid in a car. And even more so on a bike.
 Single Track Roads - Robin O'Reliant
>> I
>>
>> So I would well avoid in a car. And even more so on a bike.
>>
>>
You might not have a choice. Round here there are places you just couldn't get to without using one.
 Single Track Roads - R.P.
I'm glad we moved from our old place when we did for the sole reason of the lane leading up to it. Around a 1/4 mile from the main road, up a steep hill with badly repaired or un-repaired pot-holes. As a car driver it was bad enough (mainly people who couldn't reverse for toffee) - as a pedestrian or motor cyclist it was awful.....massive agricultural vehicles that filled the entire lane and were impossible to reverse. I walked it regularly with the dog and it was fine in daytime but a nocturnal amble from the bus stop meant taking your life in your hands from speeding cars...I may consider a bicycle as this particualr area is well catered for bike lanes...
 Single Track Roads - R.P.
We had fun in Mrs RP's Beemer, who had a trick up its sleeve in having the ability to hands free reversing....brilliant bit of kit.
 Single Track Roads - Manatee
>>Many parts of NC500 are gridlocked. Folk in hired campers that they don't know how to drive. Or camping up in passing places.

The NC500 wasn't busy in May 2019, but we deliberately avoided the bank holiday weeks and school holidays as all retired people do, don't they?

Of the other tourists we did encounter (we went anti-clockwise in the hope that we wouldn't be part of a procession) I'd say half the oncoming motorhomers will actually drive past a passing place when they must have seen you coming, and you will end up reversing. Very few are bright enough or care enough to stop in or opposite a passing place which is not on 'their' side. Many will keep you behind for miles if you catch them up going in the same directionz, same with bimbling visitors in cars. The locals are usually going like the clappers, if I see one catching up I'm out of the way before they get to me.

We will spend more time in the area west of the Great Glen but TBH from the point of view of a tourist a prescribed, arbitrary route like that just creates worse overcrowding at peak periods and puts accommodation prices on the route up. On the other hand perhaps it benefits places off the route.

Shame really. It's the tourism paradox of course, visitors detract from the character and peace they seek in the places they visit.
 Single Track Roads - Bromptonaut
>> I’m a keen cyclist.

That reads a bit like 'some of my best friends are black' :-)

>>
>> But if I was being held up on single track roads in my car by
>> a cyclist I really would be questioning WTF made then decide to do this road!

We've seen loads of cyclists on all sorts of bikes. Not seen any other Bromptons but a party some of whom I know, did the NC500 earlier this month. All any of us ask is for drivers to respect passing places. If there's somebody behind then we'll pull in and let them . pass.

As a car driver passing cyclists on sinuous double track sections is far more difficult than using passing places. A question of dropping into second or even first and creeping along at their pace until you have a line of sight.

Here, on the South West bit if NC500 the volumes are not too bad and the road is coping. I think the Northern Section after Kylesku and through to JO'G is worst.
 Single Track Roads - Bobby
Coincidentally I drive a single track road today from Greenock down to Largs. Met a few cyclists coming the other way.

They did not make any attempt to stop at the passing place on their side instead expecting me to go onto the non existent verge as we passed each other. They also had vehicles behind them and made no attempt to pull in to let them past either.

So when you are cycling on the 500 do you pull over to let everyone past you or just hold the traffic up?
 Single Track Roads - Zero
>> Coincidentally I drive a single track road today from Greenock down to Largs. Met a
>> few cyclists coming the other way.

Over the top? yes driven that road a few times when I was at the plant in Spango Valley.
 Single Track Roads - Bobby
Yeah. Was following my brother. Passed some Loch on the way that was looking more like a puddle than a Loch!
 Single Track Roads - Bromptonaut
>> So when you are cycling on the 500 do you pull over to let everyone
>> past you or just hold the traffic up?

As cyclists we're part of the traffic.

I thought I'd already made myself clear but I will pause at a passing place, it makes no difference which side, to allow following traffic to pass. I will not though move left to allow them to pass before the passing place. On the road I've been riding the rideable surface is too narrow - potholes, gravel etc on the shoulders of the carriageway and I don't trust MoHo hirers to have a handle on their vehicle's dimensions.

If I get to a passing place and there's opposite direction traffic that's already passed a PP then I'll wait. If they're further back then I'd expect whoever gets to a PP first to wait. It's drivers' failure to do that that was cheesing me off.

 Single Track Roads - hawkeye
I've never cycled in Scotland but I have much sympathy with the OP. This single-track bridge is sometimes the source of conflict when I'm cycling locally. Visibility of traffic on the bridge is pretty good if you're awake. The kerbs are sizeable; mounting them in anything other than a tractor would surely lead to wheel damage. Apparently, cyclists are expected to dismount and drag their bikes onto the kerb, even though they might be only couple of car-lengths (i.e. well over half way) from the end of the bridge deck. Few motorists seem to realise that bicycles don't come with reverse gear. No, I don't launch myself at the bridge if I can see a car approaching; I'm not that awkward.

tinyurl.com/2ez7hate - links to Google maps
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 26 Aug 21 at 20:22
 Single Track Roads - Duncan
Blimey Hawkeye. You came back for an edit! Why didn't you edit your monstrous URL?

tinyurl.com/2ez7hate
 Single Track Roads - VxFan
>> Blimey Hawkeye. You came back for an edit! Why didn't you edit your monstrous URL?

Someone just has ;)
 Single Track Roads - hawkeye
Thanks for the edit. Forgot about Tinyurl.
 Single Track Roads - No FM2R
>> Apparently, cyclists are expected to dismount and drag their bikes onto the kerb

There's not much reasonableness on British roads, from anybody to anybody. Very little desire for compromise and an awful lot of dedication to one's rights.
 Single Track Roads - Zero
>> >> Apparently, cyclists are expected to dismount and drag their bikes onto the kerb

Excellent idea, I already have an idea for the "drag your bike" road sign.
 Single Track Roads - Fullchat
Not done the NC500 yet but have motorcycled quite a bit of it in this area 'off season'.
Absolutely stunning and need to get back. Bealach ne Ba over to Applecross then along the coast to Sheildaig and Torridon. Motorcycling nivarna (weather permitting).

Similar issue with motorcyclists and oncoming traffic. I may ride a big rufty tufty adventure bike but I a'int taking it off the tarmac and on the verge.

As for motorhomes. Clearly the drivers are not used to anything bigger than a car. Stopping in ridiculous paces to let you come through like on the apex of a steep hairpin. Once committed motorcycles cannot stop on the apex because there is no road to put your foot down. Always have to plan for a gap in oncoming traffic to execute the manouvre.

Hope the weather is holding out and the midges are not too troublesome.
 Single Track Roads - R.P.
I know of a few people who have done it by bike (and even a biker in a hired Motorhome) - I've been attracted to it when we had the motorhome (I was used to driving a 27 foot van !) - the attraction has waned a bit now as I know that the place is rammed (as is north Wales) with "staycationers" in their "vans" so I can only guess what the NC500 is like.

Major marketing success by the Scots, I know that Wales have looked at the same sort of idea - I have no idea how that would pan out, but I could have a wild guess.
 Single Track Roads - Bobby
Yeah its been a big success depending on how that is measured.

There is currently a lot of resentment from locals and from some businesses as the volume of traffic and holidaymakers doesnt equate to volume of income for those businesses on the route. Undoubtedly some do like accomodation providers but a huge percentage seem to be wild campers / motorhomes / caravanners who are coming fully loaded and not spending very much on the route.

This combined with the lack of infrastructure improvements (roads, toilets etc) is causing many locals real difficulties.
 Single Track Roads - No FM2R
Sounds b***** awful.

Wild campers and motorhomes in bulk without restriction or facilities must be a nightmare. Surely some action should be taken? It'll only get worse.

In a very small way living in Lee-on-Solent years ago was similar. The entire place was unusable for three months of the year.
 Single Track Roads - Manatee

>> Major marketing success by the Scots, I know that Wales have looked at the same
>> sort of idea - I have no idea how that would pan out, but I
>> could have a wild guess.

Successful at bringing visitors perhaps but not so good if they don't spend much. Motorhomers in particular are notorious for avoiding site fees which is fine where visitors are less concentrated but a nuisance with no upside around honeypot destinations.

Friends of ours who retired early used to spend 3-6 months a year mainly wild camping and were very proud to say they spent very little (other than the surprising cost of a decent motorhome of course) but they spent most of their time in the wilder parts of Spain, Eastern Europe, and Sweden trying to spot various types of fauna.

I honestly think the NC500 will turn out to have been a mistake if it's as bad as Bobby says, and I imagine that's possible at peak holiday times. We did it because it was there I suppose and we love Scotland, but I was mindful that it was likely to get much busier over time so we did it sooner rather than later, as early in the season as we could hope for decent weather and away from the Bank Holiday weeks. Truthfully though anyone contemplating it now would be better to work out their route minimising the use of the NC500 roads. In a way it's no worse than Devon and Cornwall which are sheer purgatory in peak season but I think it's even more regrettable because the places that are affected were some of the most peaceful there were.

We started from Nairn, which isn't actually on the route and it probably wasn't coincidental that our accommodation there was the cheapest we had on that trip, as well as the best.
 Single Track Roads - Boxsterboy
>> Am I being unreasonable?
>>

Not at all! Some friends did the NC500 earlier in the year on their bicycles - and had a quite a tough time with ferocious head-winds.
 Single Track Roads - Zero

>> Not at all! Some friends did the NC500 earlier in the year on their bicycles
>> - and had a quite a tough time with ferocious head-winds.

At least the wind keeps the midges at bay.
 Single Track Roads - martin aston
I did my own version of the 500 route forty years ago long before it was a thing. It was good to say I’d done it but truth be told there were long drags of not much to see on the the east and, to an extent, north coast sections. The west section was much better.
As for doing it in traffic I would give it a miss.
We now live in the South West England and they have jumped on the bandwagon with a Great West version. Our market town already gets regularly gridlocked. We don’t need an influx of camper vans to make it worse.
Back to the original thread we also have what amount to single track roads but with no regular passing places and high vegetation making them as tricky as the Highland versions. In days gone by, with low volumes, Scottish single track roads were an enjoyable exercise in timing and mutual driver cooperation. I even missed them when large sections were upgraded on Skye, again sucking in extra traffic. Similarly the ferry acted as a traffic limiter until the bridge opened. Just too many cars with easy access nowadays. Bah humbug!
 Single Track Roads - Runfer D'Hills
Indeed, the irony to me is that it isn't, for the most part, the prettiest part of Scotland anyway. The victory of marketing over reality once again.
 Single Track Roads - misar
I am happy to make allowances for little old ladies and children on bikes because they probably have no choice and may be unaware of dangers. The Lycra-clad hobby cyclists that infest the roads of Surrey are another matter.

Many of them must be drivers but they seem to switch off a large part of their brain as soon as they get on a bike. Many ignore other road users by riding in bunches or a long string without room between to overtake. Likewise they seem unaware of their vulnerability if they come into contact with a car, bus or truck when asserting their rights or riding around slow traffic. Unless they drive with their eyes shut all of that should be obvious to them every time they get in a car.
 Single Track Roads - Bromptonaut
>> Many of them must be drivers but they seem to switch off a large part
>> of their brain as soon as they get on a bike. Many ignore other road
>> users by riding in bunches or a long string without room between to overtake. Likewise
>> they seem unaware of their vulnerability if they come into contact with a car, bus
>> or truck when asserting their rights or riding around slow traffic. Unless they drive with
>> their eyes shut all of that should be obvious to them every time they get
>> in a car.

Vulnerability is a given. It's obvious that in an accident with a car, truck or bus as a cyclist you'll come off worst. You recognise the possible consequence and work on probability.

You can do that being super observant and having rules for what you will do. Cycling writers passim, my mentor was Richard Ballantine, explain this.

I won't go near a lorry unless I can see it won't move AND I've got an escape route if I get that wrong. If a bus is stopping assume somebody will step out. Overtake queuing traffic on the offside; too many hazards from gutter rubbish to bailing passengers nearside. Have a bell or horn and use it.

How would you like us to ride on ordinary roads?

Single file invites close passing and other Muppetry.

A tight group moving at pace should be no greater problem to overtake than a tractor; probably less as they've only the 'footprint' of a car. Passed a party exactly like that on the road out of Kinlochewe yesterday, about 10 in a disciplined 'mini peloton' moving at around 20mph. Wait behind in low gear until you've and adequate sight line and go.

Even with a tonne of caravan behind it wasn't difficult.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 28 Aug 21 at 21:23
 Single Track Roads - bathtub tom
>> A tight group moving at pace should be no greater problem to overtake than a
>> tractor; probably less as they've only the 'footprint' of a car. Passed a party exactly
>> like that on the road out of Kinlochewe yesterday, about 10 in a disciplined 'mini
>> peloton' moving at around 20mph. Wait behind in low gear until you've and adequate sight
>> line and go.
>> Even with a tonne of caravan behind it wasn't difficult.

I've exprienced cycling clubs locally and I expect LGVs wouldn't use the same roads. They take up more room than a 40 footer and I'm a cyclist!

I suggest they should ride in small groups that allow a following motorist to pass. Is that so difficult?
 Single Track Roads - No FM2R
Absolutely. Around North Oxfordshire dawdling clumps taking 3/4 of the width of a country road are frequent and infuriating.

It is the lack of cooperation and excess of self-righteousness which infuriates me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 28 Aug 21 at 23:02
 Single Track Roads - Bobby
Interestingly many police forces have been working on “operation close pass” where they highlight that motorists should give a full car width between them and the cyclist when overtaking.
So for a single cyclist, you pull onto opposite side of road and back.
If it’s a group of cyclists riding 4 abreast then that won’t be possible.
 Single Track Roads - Manatee
Operation Close Pass says minimum distance of 1.5m., or 1m at 20mph IIRC.

If it's a group, on a standard type road, (say 7m wide, although some residential ones are under 6m) using the other side of the road is fine. Just have regard to your speed.

To me the point is not to squeeze a cyclist by passing in the face of oncoming traffic. If there's a gap, I see no reason not to cross the centreline and leave another road user his bit of road.

It's common sense, or should be. Sadly it isn't.

Single track is something else. Sometimes it has to be about consideration and give and take. I don't like to see cyclists behaving as if other road users aren't there, but as a driver I try to show consideration anyway - maybe it will rub off. It's far more common to see dangerous driving around cyclists.

There are still drivers who seem to think that cyclists should just work with the space that normally exists between a vehicle and the kerb. If there is oncoming traffic you can be damn sure I am riding in the middle of my lane - too often the car behind will squeeze through if I don't, sometimes with a large speed differential.
 Single Track Roads - Runfer D'Hills
There is a human tendency to dislike, or at least feel inconvenienced by, anyone who is using the same travel space, particularly if they are using it differently. So motorists dislike cyclists, cyclists dislike motorists, everyone dislikes tractors, and as for caravans, well, that goes without saying, and so on etc.

Trouble is, cyclists exist, just as tractors do, and white vans, motorhomes, caravans, and even black Audis just have to be tolerated despite all the evidence. ;-)

Ultimately, there's just no point in getting anxious, angry or frustrated by any of them, it won't make them go away, and all allowing yourself any of those emotional reactions actually achieves is to make your own day slightly worse than it was.

Rudeness and thoughtlessness is pretty endemic sadly, and is not the sole preserve of any one group.

I just try to let them all get on with it, whether they are conducting their chosen method of propulsion with care or not, any other reaction just carries too high a risk of dents or blood on the paintwork.

Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sun 29 Aug 21 at 12:59
 Single Track Roads - Manatee
>>Ultimately, there's just no point in getting anxious, angry or frustrated by any of them, it won't make them go away, and all allowing yourself any of those emotional reactions actually achieves is to make your own day slightly worse than it was.

Exactly - I remind myself that if I get angry, I am just allowing a prat I don't know to control my feelings. That usually works.

Conversely, if I get an opportunity for revenge...
 Single Track Roads - Boxsterboy
>> I just try to let them all get on with it,
>>

Top post! As a driver and cyclist, it is the lack of patience or tolerance that is so sad in all walks of life today.
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