I still believe things go in threes - three weeks ago I went to start my friend's Z3 2.8 that had been standing for a few weeks and the battery had died. Fair enough.
Two weeks ago I went to start the Prelude and the battery had died. Although 12 years old it was fine the previous day and I had put the meter on it not long before. 12.5V and 14.5V on first charge, no problem.
Yesterday we took my friend's C3 to pick her up from the station after she had flown overnight from Bahrain, then got stuck in a TGV for four hours on the outskirts of Paris because of a bomb scare. Parked the C3 in the middle of nearby town, no problem. Came back 15 minutes before the train was due, to drive to the station - battery US so no start, still a bit in it so everything electric gone mad - doors locking and unlocking, dash flickering, warning tones, etc etc.
Luckily, after we'd lugged her cases up the hill from the station, we found the Citroen agent was just down the road and he said 'that's what they do' as he took five minutes to stick in a new battery.
But why do batteries drop dead these days? Once upon a time you got a bit of warning and could even keep it going for a bit if you had a 'looney toons' charger.
I'm getting a bit paranoid now - can hardly bear to turn the key of the Beast!
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"I'm getting a bit paranoid now - can hardly bear to turn the key of the Beast!"
Leave it running...
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S'like peops innit, some linger on and some just drop dead after 'never a days illness'.
Batteries deteriorate with lack of use - like peops :)
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There are so much electric's running off the battery these days, that even when the car is parked up at night there are still things happily draining the battery.
It used to be things like alarm's that drained the battery.
These days the poor old battery has to contend with extras like tracker systems, remote door locking sensors and electric window systems that are powered for 15 minutes after the ignition is turned off.
I bet I am only scratching the surface of what is still powered after the ignition key is removed.
Still as long as the car designers are happy that it will start when you get in the car the next morning (not the next week) then were all fine !
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Ere!!! you got me thinking now,
My 5 year old Almera hasn't been started since Saturday, and won't be started until Friday (watch this space!)
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My TD5 discovery auto keeps throwing its toys out the pram if I don't drive it for a week or so. There are a number of electrical gremlins that pop up if the battery is slightly flat. Yes it will start but the gearbox ECU throws a wobbly and will only select 3rd.
Common fault with these.
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"There are so much electric's running off the battery these days, that even when the car is parked up at night there are still things happily draining the battery."
What have you in mind? I assumed everything turned off with the ignition until an RAC man pointed out that my nearest had left the inner flap of the Hyundai 1.30 vanity mirror unclosed. (To be fair, you wouldn't know, if the main flap was closed over it, unless you suspected this already.) He deploed this design fault but said it was found in some VWs as well.
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On my Rio, I don't have remote locking, or extra electrics (which I am happy with).
However, one extra I do like is the fact that the headlights can be left on.
The keys can be removed and yet they are still on, but the moment I open the drivers door the whole lot turns off.
That is quite handy.
I.E. no way to leave anything on and drain the battery.
The vanity mirror flap sounds like a bit of a cop out, that could easily have been designed to be powered off if no ignition.
After all it is just a different 12v line to feed off.
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I left my Vectra for 1 week exactly while we took the C4 down to Devon.
When I came to use it, for some reason it would not open the doors with the fob, so i had to unlock the car manually which of course set of the alarm.
Car Fired up 1st time though - but it did make a very strange rattle/rumbling noise when it did which worried me a little bit however I drove it 3 miles to get some fuel (as I had purposly run it low before leaving it outside the house*) and it unlocked and locked the car perfectly well.
*For the simple reason that if any of the local scum wanted to nick it, they arnt at least going to use the fuel that I paid for doing so.
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My 5 year old Punto manages its power when the engine isn't running:
after 20 minutes it turns the radio off, and the interior light.
The headlights go off with the ignition, but you can do the "follow me home" thing with them, if you can remember how to set the optional times.
All things considered it's a fairly sensibly designed thing - the interior light stays on for a while after you close the doors, until you put the key in the ignition.
But regarding battery failure, there are at least two failure modes, even before you consider the car flattening the battery over time:
1 - the coating on the plates comes off, gradually, and if the plates are close to the bottom of the battery the sludge slowly discharges the cells. An expensive battery used to have a deeper case (amongst other differences).
2 - the crimped connections between the individual cells can become open circuit ( this is the sudden failure, when it was working OK hours or minutes before) as the cells are in series, one failure and it's dead.
The second failure seems common in batteries which aren't used a lot, and then start getting some regular use (IME).
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A difference between then and now which may be significant is that batteries are now sealed for life. It used to be considered important to check the acid level and top up so that the plates were never exposed.
Presumably all that happens on modern so-called "sealed" batteries is that any evaporation is ignored and the plates slowly exposed.
Also it used to be possible with old batteries to tip out the acid and sludge, flush out and refill with new.
Batteries are now expendable, 4 years being considered good. Good batteriies used to last 10 years or more, if looked after. We had boat batteries that would start the diesel engine after standing for a winter, and lasted 20 years. After that they were relegated to lighting duty only, as their capacity had reduced.
But they never just dropped dead.
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>> Batteries are now expendable, 4 years being considered good.
I replaced the battery in my Merc last year, it had a date stamp from 2001 so it had lasted 8 years. When we sold my wife's 7 year old Ford Ka it was still going strong on the original battery. Batteries sold these days are better and more consistently built than "back then", require less maintenance and, in my experience, last longer.
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>> require less maintenance and, in my experience, last longer.
They probably last longer because they don't have to be maintained. It's a long time since I poured any distilled water into one of those disconcertingly dry holes, with the plates steaming, warping and shedding crumbs of terra-cotta dust before your very eyes.
I imagine many owners were even more cavalier than I was with battery maintenance. I've never changed a car's brake fluid either unless I had to.
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"I've never changed a car's brake fluid either unless I had to."
When was that then, AC - when they stopped working...? :-)
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>> When was that then, AC - when they stopped working...? :-)
When they had to be dismantled and one or more new cylinders (or at one time seal sets) fitted. Had a lot to do with brakes in the old days. Very dirty, knuckle-abrading stuff it was too.
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>> A difference between then and now which may be significant is that batteries are now
>> sealed for life. It used to be considered important to check the acid level and
>> top up so that the plates were never exposed.
>> Presumably all that happens on modern so-called "sealed" batteries is that any evaporation is ignored
>> and the plates slowly exposed.
Thereby hangs a tale ...
Suffice it to say that Mrs H's C3 battery was replaced at 8 years old when it was reported that starting wasn't as "busy" as usual. Sure enough, even to my melophobic ear, the starter sounded a bit lazy. New battery, and 'busyness' was restored.
The C8 embarrassingly let Mrs H down outside the sis-in-law's house in Halifax a few weeks ago. Like many PSA cars with few volts, the rest of the electrics went bananas but the starter remained silent. The recovery man did something beastly to the battery to get it going because it was pathetic afterwards and that too was replaced.
Out with the big screwdriver an a hammer and the sealed-for-life battery was unsealed. When I say the plates were dry, I mean powder dry and flaking away in the draught. I put more that half-a-litre of water in the cells and gave it to the Aldi battery charger. 'No way' flashed the charger, 'this is one scrap battery'.
The C3 battery was given similar treatment and the plates were dry as well. I've treated it with water and Bat-Aid and put it on the Aldi charger.
If there's a moral to this ramble, prise off the top cover and keep the plates covered with deionised water. "Sealed-for-life" just means you can't top it up, there is a vent tube so it's not sealed at all.
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My Octavia also shuts the radio off and the internal lights after a set period. Been very useful camping when doors get left open.
Batteries seem to last well nowadays in my experience. Last replacement was in my Mk3 Golf when it failed suddenly. Otherwise easy starting in the coldest mornings and no nursing a dying battery like the bad old days.
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Youngest son has a 10 year old Yaris on original battery. He had a Mark3 Fiesta which was 12 years old and on original battery.
OTH, SWMBO's 106 diesel required new batteries every 3 years until I fitted a modern calcium one whiich seems more robust - now 4.
Audi A4 battery died at 5 years..
None of the dead ones died suddently - just failure to keep charge..
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I changed the battery on the Astra 2.0l Dti last month and that was the original battery since 2002.
So not bad really.
Top tip, the batteries for these cars are huge !
They even have carry handles.
This battery did not die out right but was slower and slower to turn over the engine in the mornings.
Also the headlight brightness was more like candle power (maybe the alternator was working harder to compensate a weak battery).
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5 years seems a reasonabl;e expectation these days but the battery in my Hyundai, as mentioned above, was run flat and charged up by an RAC man. I don't know if it was to do with the quick boil up involved but it failed soon after, having been used for 2 1/2 years/21000 miles. (The replacement cost £115 - I was in a hurry to get it done and didn't have time to ring round Halfords etc.)
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I think the explanation of how cell connectors can fail is probably closest to the sort of answer I was looking for. I've still got the Prelude battery standing around here and there's still ten volts in it, so obviously only one cell failed. Although, having said that, I just realised that if they are in series how could I get a reading at all if a connector failed?
The Beast started today too, so I won't start worrying again until tomorrow...SWMBO said 'why don't we just buy a battery and carry it around in the boot?' Hmmm.
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>> there's still ten volts in it, so obviously only one cell failed. Although,
>> having said that, I just realised that if they are in series how could I
>> get a reading at all if a connector failed?
Voltmeters draw virtually no current, so will give some sort of reading due to 'leakage' current within the battery - even if one cell is kaput.
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>>
>> >> there's still ten volts in it, so obviously only one cell failed. Although,
>> >> having said that, I just realised that if they are in series how could
>> I
>> >> get a reading at all if a connector failed?
>>
>> Voltmeters draw virtually no current, so will give some sort of reading due to 'leakage'
>> current within the battery - even if one cell is kaput.
>>
Yep, as happened with SWMBO's Zafira battery, still shows 12.7V on the DVM but won't start a car, now kept in the shed as it's vaguely useful for powering tyre pumps etc. The relatively high resistance of the poor internal connection is still very low compared with the DVM's resistance, so it will still show a good voltage.
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Most of the batteries I have seen fail in the last 5 years (one on the Clio and three on the lads various sheds) all have sufficient voltage, but ask them to draw starting currents and they all scream in agony and drop the voltage pretty quickly. It does sound like the dicky links issue as described, probably going high resistance. They all had fluid covering the plates.
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>> I'm getting a bit paranoid now - can hardly bear to turn the key of the Beast!
Relax, you bought a Varta didn't you?
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Two of our OE batteries gave up within weeks of each other in winter 08/09.
The 53 Vectra at 5.5 years and 70k and the 05 Galaxy at 3.5 years and 26k. Both gave no warning signals. Despite charging they wouldn't hold so replaced both with Energizers from my local factors.
Bit disappointed with the Vectra as it only does motorway journeys so expected more, the Galaxy does more short trips so perhaps understandable.
Once a modern battery lets you down once it's time to replace I reckon.
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Somehow the Mondeo battery drained over Tues night. It has this fancy keyless ignition and I was fiddling and I believe I manage to leave it in the state of turning the key but not starting the engine. Should have realised when it wouldn't lock. I know if you leave the radio on it turns off after a bit but I guess this was something different.
90 mins charge didn't do the trick so jump started.
Car ran OK and some stuff had retained settings (radio) but lots of the ancillary stuff didn't work. E.g. elec windows, aircon & fans, cigar lighter, couldn't unfold door mirrors, headlight sensing (permanently on). Was a bit worried I'd fried something but one I stopped and started it again all was back to normal.
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>Relax, you bought a Varta didn't you? <
That's the one in the Prelude - the Beast has an 'Inci Aku' 66amp battery that is about four years old. Ever since I discovered it was made in Turkey, even though the maker produces batteries for big names, I've been a bit dubious...
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>> Ever since I discovered it was made in Turkey<<
No worries then, it'll be a Delight.
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>> that is about four years old. Ever since I discovered it was made in Turkey,
>> even though the maker produces batteries for big names, I've been a bit dubious...
So you turn the key, and the battery shrugs, then gesticulates, yabbers excitedly and negotiates a price for starting?
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>>So you turn the key, and the battery shrugs, then gesticulates, yabbers excitedly and negotiates a price for starting<<
;-))
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>> That's the one in the Prelude - the Beast has an 'Inci Aku' 66amp battery
>> that is about four years old.
My mistake, I thought the Beast was the Prelude.
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When the Touran decided to turn its lights on at random and drain the battery overnight, jump starts were a delight.
Firstly the warning displays lit up like Blackpool Illuminations for the first 20 miles clearly indicating that nothing was working properly, the engine ran like a dog, the windows needed to be reset, all the things Smokie indicated.
Modern cars do not like low voltage one little bit.
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Driving 46 years (test 22 Sept 1964), car owner 1966 till present.
Number of batteries replaced - 2 - MGB GT (warranty @ 6 mths old) 1973, Hyundai @ 3 yrs 1992 (probably student son's fault with running dry) - all other cars bought and sold without any battery issues.
Lucky? - well may be but then again(forgetting servicing, tyres, brakes etc) paid for repairs were modest as well. Mostly Vx and Fords early on, tried German 80's /90's but settled on Japanese 15 years ago and see no reason to change.
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When a 12 year old battery suddenly stops working, it's not really unexpected is it ?
I remember, back in th 70s, when you got 12 months warranty with a battery and you were doing well if it lasted more than 2 years.
Battery technology has come on in leaps and bounds since then and 4-5 years is the minimum expectancy with 7-8 years being the norm.
I must admit, modern batteries do tend to give their all until they expire, whereas old batteries used to give some warning, by turning the engine over slower in a morning for example, before giving up, but this is the price we pay for better batteries.
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I believe the lead plates inside the battery can fail unexpectedly. Certainly happened in my Passat, where it started fine one day and was dead flat the next. Recharged it and it barely lasted one start.
Don't forget that there's a significant electrical load on the battery even after driving, as the ECU will continue to monitor engine parameters to update its mathematical model. (So I was told by the chap that used to write the software for them!)
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I'm not complaining about the life of batteries in general. Regular readers will know that the Prelude battery died a few weeks ago after more than 12 years. Certainly can't complain at that. Six years for the C3 seems pretty good to me as well. I used the words (cleverly, I thought) 'drop dead' because I don't/didn't know why these days they seem to fail suddenly rather than show some warning signs.
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I remember when I was (briefly) running a phase 2 Peugeot 406 HDi as a company car in the late 90's. This was an early CANbus wired car, and suffered a flat battery one morning. In short, it went completely doolally. Rapid relay clicks from behind the dash, instruments jumping around all over the place, rapid cycling of the central locking, and all manner of other weirdness. Then it locked in "ECO mode" and had to be recovered to the dealer to have something reset, even after jump leads were applied. Outstanding!
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No one has taken up my earlier speculation about fast "boil-up" charges. Are they likely in fact to cause later failure?
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Why do batteries drop dead these days? - BiggerBadderDave
