I'm asking this for a friend - and yes, it really is a friend which is why the word is not in quote marks.
Yesterday he received the dreaded brown envelope informing him that a camera had clocked him running a red light at some roadworks somewhere between Abridge and Chigwell on the 15th of May. The letter was dated the day before, 17th June so over a month after the alleged offence.
Now I thought you had to be informed (Or at least the NIP sent out) within fourteen days of the offence being committed or it was invalid. Have I got that correct or is he still in the mire?
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My understanding also had to be posted within 14 days of offence
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>> My understanding also had to be posted within 14 days of offence
Has to be sent to the Registered Keeper (RK) within 14 days. If the RK names someone else, for example in the case of a lease, company or hire car, then 14 days of offence ceases to be relevant.
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>> Has to be sent to the Registered Keeper (RK) within 14 days. If the RK
>> names someone else, for example in the case of a lease, company or hire car,
>> then 14 days of offence ceases to be relevant.
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Yep, and having phoned him back with the "Good" news, he then tells me his van is leased and so he is not the registered keeper. I comforted him with the fact that he may be offered a driver awareness course if he coughs promptly, at the moment all they want is confirmation of who was driving.
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...I think it's one to take proper legal advice on (especially if he/she has legal assistance on either home or motor insurance - though the latter might need to be approached slightly carefully ;-) )
AIUI, such an offence falls under the standard rules for NIPs, which require the notice to be served within 14 days of the offence (and Z, this would normally require it being in the post within 13 days at most, with a first-class stamp. There is an assumption that it has been properly served if it gets delayed in transit, but there must be a reasonable expectation that it will meet the deadline.)
A number of extenuating circumstances can be claimed by the police, but I at least can't see any that would likely apply here, unless an allowance has been inserted for Covid, or the police couldn't gat the keeper's details quickly due to the current DVLA disruption - and given their general direct access to databases, the latter seems very unlikely.
At face value, it looks like the NIP is invalid. I would want to keep the envelope, however, if it has evidence of posting date (since the date (month) on the letter just could have been a "slip", which would be an allowed mistake if the letter had actually been posted the previous month).
It would be worth (politely) querying the validity with the police, they're likely to roll over if it is obviously invalid, but if that isn't successful, then the legal route ("I have a NIP which I think is invalid, and I have no recollection of the alleged offence") through insurance is probably the best next route.
On another forum, I spent an awful lot of effort persuading a motorhomer to contest three consecutive speeding tickets (three separate journeys, so three separate offences) at 70mph on a dual carriageway. He had been charged as though it were a standard transit van (60mph limit), but motorhomes, subject to a maximum of 3050kg unladen weight are subject to the same speed limits as cars, in this case 70mph.
He'd posted the circumstances as a warning, and was determined to hold his hand up (and take 9 points and several fines) until finally persuaded to contest it. Done via the insurance route and a solicitor, where I provided the brochure for the van showing a rather lower unladen weight, and it was all dropped in a matter of days (and the solicitor was determined to pursue the police for harassment :-O - not a route I would have chosen, though they were patently deficient).
Difference here, of course, was that those NIPs were for non-existent offending, your friend might well have offended, but there is a good chance that the NIP is invalid.
Edited to add:
given the above update, I think the initial NIP should have hit the leasing company within 14 days - worth a check?
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sat 19 Jun 21 at 21:21
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>> given the above update, I think the initial NIP should have hit the leasing company
>> within 14 days - worth a check?
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I have suggested that, but it is very much in forlorn hope rather than anger.
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The NIP and the vehicle being a lease vehicle has been covered. The NDORS (National Driver Offending Retraining Scheme covers a wide range of courses.
www.ukroed.org.uk/courses/
The WDU (Whats Driving Us) covers red light offences so they may be able to escape points if they wish to do so.
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>> The WDU (Whats Driving Us) covers red light offences so they may be able to
>> escape points if they wish to do so.
I did that one after an inadvertent and unnoticed at the time red light offence on Leicester; useful and thought provoking.
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Red light at roadworks?
If these are temporary lights do any special circumstances apply?
Not sure that I can remember seeing cameras on temporary lights?
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>> Red light at roadworks?
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>> If these are temporary lights do any special circumstances apply?
I was wondering about that too. ISTR some issue that meant normal red light laws were not always applicable at temporary lights. Possibly due to the absence of a stop line.
We have a 'temporary' set locally that have been in place over two years. Local unclassified road crosses the West Coast Main Line on a bridge where the approach road is subsiding. Various issues with Network Rail over liability and also the fact that work is likely to need a possession of the track or at least the overhead isolating.
The default setting seems to be red both ways turning green when vehicles approach. Every couple of months it sticks on red both ways leaving no option but to creep past - bridge was always a blind summit.
There are cameras there now but for security; the lights kept getting nicked for their batteries.
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Don’t think I’ve ever seen red light camera at roadworks . Surely there would have to be distance marker lines after the camera for speed calculation. There is a fixed yellow speed camera on the b173 at Chigwell row . I know that one as I’ve been caught.
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I'm only going by what I've been told. He says he can't remember going through anything, though it may become clearer when he gets the actual summons. At the moment he has just been asked to confirm who was driving.
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No you can't have red light cameras at roadworks, none of the required authorisations are in place.
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Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say that you are definitely wrong, but I think you are.
You need a traffic light and a "If red then wait here" sign and that is then enforceable, provided it is a legal traffic sign in the first place.
It is certainly disobeying a traffic sign, it may also be careless driving.
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NIP - Zero
