4,000 miles and 3 months ago, I had my timing belt replaced (Subaru Legacy 2.0 RE 06 reg).
Last week, on holiday, in Northumberland, the car suddenly stopped on the A1 in a cambelt-failed sort of way. I called the AA, who sent a local garage.
He asked what was wrong, and I said "If I hadn't had it replaced recently, I'd have said the belt had snapped." He took off the cover, and said the belt was sloppy, and perhaps the timing belt had jumped, maybe it needed a replacement tensioner, and they'd fit one for me. So the local garage took it away. The invoice reads (complete with typos)
"Check for fault with car cut out, found the timing belt loose, dismantle as req, drain off coolant and remove radiator, unbolt and remove timing covers, found two bolts seized in timing cover, found timing bolt tensioner bolt snaped, removed timing belt and tensioner, drill out snaped peice of bolt, supply and fit new tensioner with new bolt, torque tensioner bolt to 35NM. Advise the threads are not good that holds the tensioner in, advise to be drilled out and retaped. Time up engine and refit old belt to test, found the engine to have been damaged when the tensioner bolt snaped, box up bolts etc and left in bits at the owners request. 5 hours £210. Timing belt kit £250. + VAT Total £540."
The garage said to me "we looked in the book after it wouldn't start up and it has an interference engine, so obviously the valves are bent; only the 8 valve engine is non-interference".
The AA then took me back to London yesterday. The view of the AA men who relayed me was that given the existence of a snapped tensioner, there was no point whatsoever in trying to replace the belt, and the garage had ripped me off.
Thoughts?
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I agree with the AA man, why fit a cam belt and tensioner to an engine with bent valves?
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>> I agree with the AA man, why fit a cam belt and tensioner to an
>> engine with bent valves?
Anybody can agree with that one.
The question is, "Was there any chance that they weren't bent?" Can a "loose" timing belt mean it is worth replacing the tensioners? And what if the tensioner bolt turns out to have snapped?
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"We looked at the book after it wouldn't start". Sounds like good planning. I would think an engine that stops on a main road can be assumed to be doing a few revs, interferance engine = bent valves.
Can you agree with that one?
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Surely your problems are down to the original garage who fitted the replacement belt.
The second garage have tried to put the mess back together but its beyond repair.
Seeing that the second garage didn't fit the replacement belt originally then they are charging you labour to rebuild it.
You should have had the car taken back to the orignal garage to be fixed at their expense.
As it is now you'll have to try and claim the second garages charges back off the first garage.
And i think it will end up in small claims court.
Sorry
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Labour rate seems reasonable. Timing belt kit seems steep?!
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...drill out snaped peice of bolt, supply and fit new tensioner with new bolt, torque tensioner bolt to 35NM. Advise the threads are not good that holds the tensioner in, advise to be drilled out and retaped...
Is this all the same bolt? I think it is.
If so, they've drilled out a bolt, replaced it and then told you the threads need tapping.
Why, after they drilled out the bolt, did they not retap the thread themselves?
Incapable of using a tap and die set, probably.
Having said that, I don't think the bill is too bad, provided the belt kit is the right price.
I'd have expected a bit more engineering expertise and Subaru knowledge in Northumberland - they sell a few to the rural folk there.
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>>Having said that, I don't think the bill is too bad, provided the belt kit is the right price.
Errrr.... to be charged £540 for work which makes no difference to a car that they subsequently tell me needs a new engine sounds quite expensive to me.
Should they have done a pressure test before ordering a belt kit?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 20 Sep 10 at 19:10
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>> Should they have done a pressure test before ordering a belt kit?
>>
Can't do a pressure test without a working cambelt.
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>> Can't do a pressure test without a working cambelt.
It might be possible to (gingerly) bring the pistons to mid-travel, remove the slack belt and rotate each camshaft so as to fully close all valves on a particular cylinder. Using a suitable adaptor, an airline could be used to pressurise the cylinder via spark or glow plug hole.
Maybe...
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...Errrr.... to be charged £540 for work which makes no difference to a car that they subsequently tell me needs a new engine sounds quite expensive to me....
All I meant by saying the bill is not too bad is you've been charged £200 + VAT to pull the thing to bits, and to put the timing gear into a state where an attempt can be made to start the engine.
I don't think there is a simpler and therefore more cost effective way of finding out if the valves are bent.
Perhaps it would have been better if they'd stopped there, rather than supply a timing belt kit which you may or may not need, depending on what happens next.
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Thoughts are that a good Subaru specialist or dealer needs to get his head under this bonnet, it's possible if the belt was still on that it only jumped a tooth , enough to stop the engine but hopefully not enough to cause valve damage.
Compression test and skilled chap time anyway.
Bad luck that MM, and sods law that it should happen to a car that is maintained proper.
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I'm not trying to rub salt in the wound but,
this tale of woe is the reason why I will *only* allow a pain dealer to change a rubber band on a car of mine
(and why I'm now in chains)
Even when I had the ole 240 GLT, which was serviced by an indie, I'd get the rubber band done by a pain dealer.
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>>
>> this tale of woe is the reason why I will *only* allow a pain dealer
>> to change a rubber band on a car of mine
Have to agree with your there D, the price can make your eyes water but you get the genuine parts and hopefully the back up if it should go wrong.
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>>the price can make your eyes water<<
Hence the 'pain' dealer G, ope you're chained up on the Citroen.
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>> Hence the 'pain' dealer G, ope you're chained up on the Citroen.
>>
Unfortunately we now have 2 cars on cambelts, Cit will be an expensive little blighter but Hilux is a doddle, 1 hours labour at the main (no pain yet) dealer.
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Renault charged me nigh on £300 to change the cambelt on a 1.4 16v Clio a few years ago :(
Get an engine for that in 'the old days' :)
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>> Renault charged me nigh on £300 to change the cambelt on a 1.4 16v Clio
>> a few years ago :(
>> Get an engine for that in 'the old days' :)
>>
My mate paid £38 for a recon on a Mk1 Cortina. He was moaning because they charged extra for the new clutch they put in too.
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Gutted for you Mapmaker.
Timing belt kits are expensive for these cars as they contain the belt, 3 idlers and the tensioner itself. £250+vat is about the going rate. £42/hr +vat is a good labour rate and 5hrs a fair time for the work involved.
You can never assume an interference engine has suffered damage and you could argue that you'd be cross if they'd spent money stripping things looking for damaged valves when they were all fine and just fitting a timing belt kit was all it needed.
The last two interference engines that went into my indy after belt failure just had new belt kits fitted and they were fine for a minimal cost.
So it really was a 50/50 call when they started the job and it's only hindsight that's allowing you to think you've been ripped off.
As said above all your frustration should be towards the person who did the belt change.
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BTW...Tensioner retaining bolts are often quite small with low torque figures... folks tend to *give them a bit more* in a misguided hope it will stop them coming loose. This leads to waisting/snapping of the bolts and/or stripping of the threads in the engine.
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>>My mate paid £38 for a recon on a Mk1 Cortina<<
Ah! Mk 1 Cortina ... *now* you're talking :)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cortina.mk1.white.750pix.jpg
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>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
Did you have the belt changed at a Subaru franchised dealer, who knew what they were doing, or at a "garage" who were jacks of all trades and masters of none?
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Hmmm. My thoughts as well. Knowing Scoobys as well as I do, I would never ever let any garage near that engine unless they had a nice shiny Subaru sign over the door or several Subaru trained mechanics with certificates on the walls.
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Surely though, any competent mechanic should be able to change a timing belt (or belts) on any mainstream engine perfectly satisfactorily given the correct timing tools, torque wrench settings, and of course the correct tensioning information for the belt. All this information should be available through the likes of Autodata, or whatever technical information source the garage uses.
The hardest part is normally getting access to the blasted things! To physically change both belts, both tensioners, an additional idler pulley, and the coolant pump on my old Mondeo took me about 20 minutes. The associated stripping and reassembly around it took hours!
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>>Surely though, any competent mechanic should be able to change a timing belt (or belts) on any mainstream engine perfectly satisfactorily given the correct timing tools, torque wrench settings<<
At least when ya do's things yourself, ya try and do them properly, but ya can imagine the scenario - a lad with a diploma in making tea, his mind on Tracy who he met in the disco, 8 pints of cooking the night before,
oops - there goes another blasted bolt!
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Thanks for your thoughts.
1. I am most interested to see that people (Fenlander anyway) think that it was worth trying a new belt & tensioners. That is reassuring.
2. Obviously there is an issue with the garage that did the first belt change. He came highly recommended, as he looks after a friend's cars including a Subaru. Lo and behold, upon reading the invoice, his invoice makes reference to changing the timing belt, but not tensioners, and the cost for the parts seems on the low side compared to £250+VAT. Surely nobody would skimp on changing the tensioners. Surely? IME changing the tensioners is more important than the belt.
Whilst presumably I haven't paid for the tensioners, he was instructed to do a 60,000 mile service. Negligent, stupid, or just trying to save me money?
3. The other thing nobody has picked up on is that the garage in Northumberland makes reference to "found two bolts seized in timing cover." They were of the view that the timing cover hadn't been removed within the last 3 months/3k miles or anything like and therefore thought that the timing belt probably hadn't been changed at all. They didn't think the belt looked new.
I know it's tempting to mix up points 2 and 3, but please, when commenting, try to comment on the two points separately.
Thanks
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 12:02
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>> Whilst presumably I haven't paid for the tensioners, he was instructed to do a 60,000
>> mile service. Negligent, stupid, or just trying to save me money?
Is there any reference anywhere to a timing belt "kit"? These come with the belt and all relevant tensioners required for that application, and by fitting the entire contents of the kit, you know you have complied with the manufacturer's recommendations. In this case the tensioners would not be listed as separate parts. To buy off the shelf, a belt kit is typically £50-£100 depending on application, compared to £10-£20 for a belt on its own.
It is universally accepted as good practice to change the tensioners at the same time as the belt, simply because the additional labour is minimal (literally a few minutes), and the tensioner is just as critical as the belt itself. No mechanic worth his salt would skimp on this. The mechanic I use won't do the job at all if the customer won't pay for a full belt kit, as it's on his head if anything goes wrong.
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It says "Service including timing belt. Change rear diff oil. Strip front brakes. Remove all corrossion, great pads and caliper slides. Replace clutch. Re-fill cooling system using fresh anti-freeze."
In the parts list it states "Timing Belt £69.69 +VAT"
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1. To restate it is quite common to fit a new belt, set the timing and see if you've got away without damage. Having taken that course of action you source/fit a whole new belt kit because you want to be sure, if the car fires up OK, it doesn't then go pop in seconds because one of the old components was faulty.
2. It does seem your first man didn't change the tensioner and idlers... like you I can't believe anyone would do so these days. No iffs no buts it's negligent. £69.99+vat is a bit pricey for just the belt but not enough to have included the tensioner.
3. The timing belt cover bolts might not have been seized but just massively overtightened? Was this the first belt change this car's had? If so was the loose belt found by garage two a type that was obviously an aftermarket or an original Subaru? I would hope there may be some clues if you examine the belt (date code stamped on would be great) I can't believe anyone these days would risk charging for a timing belt job and not doing it at all.... particularly on an engine that would obviously cost a lot to repair.
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Further..... it seems Subaru tensioner bolt failure isn't unknown.
www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/27932-01-owb-broken-bolt-timing-bolt-tensioner.html
www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47636
www.rs25.com/forums/f13/t37477-ej25-sohc-interference-timing-belt-idler-pulley-broke.html
Pasted from a website....
My fantastic 97 outback legacy wagon started whirring one day 200 miles from home. The sound got louder on acceleration. There was rubber and metal dust around the timing belt. I had the car towed to a mechanic who found that the tensioner bolt had broken clean off, ripping a path in the timing cover, and tensioner was floating but engine had not seized up yet. What could be the internal engine damage and how much to repair? Mechanic who looked at it only inspected timing belt assembly and did not open engine but thinks there is probably internal damage. I had the timing belt and tensioner changed only 2 1/2 months ago. Is this the mechanic's fault who did the job?
A: The Subaru engine is an "interference" design, meaning that when the timing is off, valves and pistons can slam into each other. Confirmation of damage requires removing both cylinder heads - a nice 2-day job. If the belt was damaged still on you might have dodged a bullet. If the tensioner was replaced but then failed 2 months later the shop that replaced it should take care of it under warranty - along with whatever damage may have resulted from it. Call the shop that replaced the T-belt and tell them what happened.
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Fenlander, thank you for that. I feel much better about the £540.
I must say, I think that tensioner failure isn't unknown on any make of car. The last three cars I've heard of with failed timing kit have all suffered from tensioner problems. The other two, it has to be said, made a clicking noise thus allowing a solution prior to failure.
I shall be going back to the garage who changed the belt previously, but helpfully he is 500 miles away from me now. I'm not entirely certain I want him anywhere near the motor, though.
Oh yes, and this is the car's second belt change, the first being done (according to the service book) by Subaru dealer in Hexham. I shall try to have a look at the belt.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 16:00
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...removing both cylinder heads - a nice 2-day job...
Two days?
I could take a cylinder head off a Marina in 20 minutes.
I know times change, and I'm all for the technological advances in cars since Marinas were about.
But making cylinder head removal quite so complex is a step back.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 16:29
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>>
>> But making cylinder head removal quite so complex is a step back.
>>
>>
>>
The logic is, presumably, that it doesn't need doing very often these days so making it easy isn't a selling point. My Mk3 Cavalier had the head off for the first time at 186K due to head gasket failure, a 2 litre Omega at 126K for the same reason. My 194K Carlton, 176K V6 Omega and 165K Vectra never had the heads off (unless it was carried out and not noted in the service history)
From memory my late father's Vivas needed the head off very 40K for decoke, head gasket etc.
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I used to get given the job of grinding valves in with a little wooden tool and a rubber sucker, while I was waiting to serve petrol many years ago!
I used to stand there dreaming of being a proper mechanic:)
Pat
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Ah yes, when I was about 10 I used to 'help' my father by grinding the valves in on the aforementioned Vivas. I'm clearing out his shed at the moment, doubtless I'll find the wooden stick with a sucker at each end and some grinding paste at some point.
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Didn't the grinding paste have a lid at both ends with one end being coarse and the other end fine?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 17:53
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>> Didn't the grinding paste have a lid at both ends with one end being coarse
>> and the other end fine?
>>
>> Pat
>>
They sure did, Pat. Mine saw me through a few Viva and Mini cylinder head jobs. At least modern technology restricts me to oil and filter changes, and maybe brake pads and disc's if I am feeling adventurous. Anyway hanging upside down like a fruit bat under a car parked in a snow filled gutter is no fun.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 18:03
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Blimey you lot are talking like these are things from the old days... if challenged I'm only 30sec away from laying hands on these items in my toolbox. Next someone will say my whitworth socket set is obsolete.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 18:06
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>> Blimey you lot are talking like these are things from the old days... if challenged
>> I'm only 30sec away from laying hands on these items in my toolbox.
>>
Good for you, I'm not taking the head off my DOHC common rail diesel, anyway the four CR diesels I have owned each managed over 100,000 miles without problems, that would have been a dream when I started driving.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 18:11
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My Vectra needed a new cylinder head at 45ish k owing to a broken bit of plastic.
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>> My Vectra needed a new cylinder head at 45ish k owing to a broken bit
>> of plastic.
>>
Bad luck, but did you fix it yourself? I wouldn't these days.
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...valve grinding...
At the garage, we had a benchtop valve grinder which did most of the work, so the 'sucker and paste' phase was only 'grinding in'.
Very satisfying to produce that uniform, grey, almost sugary band around the valve.
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>> Blimey you lot are talking like these are things from the old days... if challenged
>> I'm only 30sec away from laying hands on these items in my toolbox. Next someone
>> will say my whitworth socket set is obsolete.
>>
My father once changed the head gasket on one of his Austin 7s whilst on the edge of a field (somewhere near Breachwood Green) using only the tools he kept in the boot, that could be tricky on a modern car. IIRC even in the early eighties he kept a spare cylinder head for the 1256cc powerhouse Viva HC in the boot.
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Nowadays, you're lucky if its possible to change a headlamp bulb by the roadside, never mind a head gasket.while I agree (and applaud) that modern cars are incredibly reliable, many have some truly idiotic design layouts which the cynic could easily argue are designed to maximise reliance on professional attention when it is needed.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 18:48
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>> Nowadays, you're lucky if its possible to change a headlamp bulb by the roadside, never
>> mind a head gasket.while I agree (and applaud) that modern cars are incredibly reliable, many
>> have some truly idiotic design layouts which the cynic could easily argue are designed to
>> maximise reliance on professional attention when it is needed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZWqU9X6PR4
Last edited by: corax on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 19:52
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZWqU9X6PR4
>>
Says is got a malformed URL.
Edit, it's working now. sorry.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 19:53
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZWqU9X6PR4
Heh heh. Strangely enough, I had Renault headlamp bulbs in mind when I wrote my previous message :-). It's a classic example though. I recall changing a headlamp bulb on my father-in-law's old Volvo V50. Similarly cramped access behind the light units, but you simply released a metal plate and slid the complete headlamp unit out to change the bulb. I believe certain Mondeos have a similar feature, as probably do other cars. Renault's NCAP excuse is ridiculous.
If I ruled the world, cars would be denied Type Approval for things like this. Anything which encourages people to drive around with bulbs out (deferring a £50 bill would, in many cases) is a safety hazard.
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.... Anything which encourages people to drive around with bulbs out (deferring a £50 bill would, in many cases) is a safety hazard...
Agreed.
I don't go abroad, but isn't one obliged to carry a bulb kit sur le continent?
Not much point if it's impossible to replace a blown bulb at the roadside.
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I'm like FenL.
I can lay my hands on a double ended tin of paste and a couple of swizzle sticks in a moment or two. Plus Whitworth sockets and combi spanners, all used a lot.
I've also got a set of sockets to suit square nuts, like coach bolt nuts.
There must be a dozen cylinder heads under the bench.....although all two cylinders.
Going to collect an engine I've been given tomorrow.....broken crank, but the rest OK.
Ted
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It's just big boys meccano. :) Who has got the biggest set? All my hand tools fit into five toolboxes.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Sep 10 at 18:56
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...All my hand tools fit into five toolboxes...
All mine fit into one toolbox, but I only have the right tools. :)
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>> ...All my hand tools fit into five toolboxes...
>>
>> All mine fit into one toolbox, but I only have the right tools. :)
>>
Sorry that includes woodwork tools, (for making pistons before auction sales).
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Loads of tooboxes here with varying bias as to the job their contents will do. One of the most interesting is inherited from the late FIL. He worked on Spitfires, Mosquitos and others in the 40s and it contains many aircraft specific tools including 1940s Snap-On sockets and drives.
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I once changed one myself, a Renault sohc one. Even so I worried that I might have bruised the teeth with the big screwdriver I used to lever it on with.
A Ford dohc engine is a can of worms though, even caught my BiL world's best amateur mechanic out. So I got my Aussie pro in Notting Dale to do my Escort, cheapish and perfect.
He ground his teeth a bit when I made him do the Chrysler. It was more expensive too, but so far so good certainly.
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I did a 1600 Sierra head gasket on a mate's drive in less than 2 hours, stopping for several coffee/fag breaks. Looking at those engine bays today, it's incredible how much space you had to work. You can also see what a doddle the cambelt was to change:
tinyurl.com/27zz9cs
The only difficulty/problem I recall was having to buy a special splined socket for the head bolts. This has since become one of many tools in my toolbox which has been used once, and gathered dust since.
Still, you never know when another Pinto head might need to come off.....
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Be interested to know Mapmaker if the original belt change was done by the garage that sold it to you as part of the deal or as a job you paid for after purchase?
500mls away is too far to get any physical help from them.... but worth putting in a reasonable contribution claim sooner rather than later??
Also I'd try and find out if a proper Subaru belt kit includes a new tensioner bolt... or when they sell a kit would they offer a new tensioner bolt as good practice?
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The Gates kits I've used have all been supplied with new tensioner bolts.
It should be easy to determine visually if the tensioners and bolts are recent replacements, or have been on the engine for a while.
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Over the years, despite never having overlooked getting a car serviced on schedule I've had three cars suffer major engine damage as a result of snapped cambelts. I'd now take a lot of persuading to buy a car with my own money which didn't have a chain cam engine.
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Humph... that's more than unlucky. What make/model/engines were they?
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...getting a car serviced on schedule I've had three cars suffer major engine damage as a result of snapped cambelts....
I believe Humph has posted before about getting cars serviced regularly, but at independent garages.
The OP used an independent garage for the belt change.
Result? - Three snapped cambelts and one belt-related engine failure.
Conclusion? - Independents might be OK for oil changes and the like, but main dealers are better for more complex jobs.
It might be because they have access to the latest workshop manuals.
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The cars were a 1986 BMW 3 series, a 1992 Rover 800 and a 1995 Volvo 850. All less than a year old at the time and all main dealer serviced.
Never had major problems with anything I've had with a chain cam wherever serviced.
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....The cars were a 1986 BMW 3 series, a 1992 Rover 800 and a 1995 Volvo 850. All less than a year old at the time and all main dealer serviced....
Oh.
Rubbish these main dealers, I've always said that. :)
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Truely amazing any one person would have three belt failures... particularly on newer cars. My experience over a huge number of vehicles is that belts breaking just isn't an issue if makers change schedules are kept to.
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Amazement wasn't my first reaction to those events. "Fury" covers it better !
Paradoxically about the only thing which didn't break on my Espace was the timing belt. More or less everything else had a moment at some point though.
:-)
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>>Truely amazing any one person would have three belt failures<<
It's the way he drives the critters, probably thinks he's fighting Longshanks all over again!
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Reading this thread got me all concerned about my wife's Renault Grand Scenic 2.0 auto 05 reg. It's done about 50K
Just phoned the local Renault dealer who's quoted £583.05 for the cambelt or £1092.50 for cambelt & service. IMO the car's not worth spending over a grand but after seeing MM's experience I guess the cambelt price seems ok.
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>> Just phoned the local Renault dealer who's quoted £583.05 for the cambelt or £1092.50 for
>> cambelt & service.
One of the reasons we got rid of ours. Utterly stupid and unrealistic maintenance costs.
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Our Clio was £300 for the belt + c£300 for the service = got rid & bought an Almera 1.8,
No cambelt and the last *full* M/D service came to £114 ..
I phoned em up and complained that they weren't charging enough!
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On Nicoles old Clio, the cambelt (full kit) and waterpump was changed for £195 at an indy.
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The Scenic's engine is well buried. You have to remove the windscreen scuttle panel before you can really even see it, never mind work on it.
As for the labour involved in changing a clutch on the 6 speed transmission models, it's just ridiculous. A grand's worth of work, even at an indie.
And don't get me started on the way Renault don't sell spare components, but spare "assemblies". At the time the Haynes manual was published, you couldn't even buy a CV gaiter as a spare part - you replaced the entire driveshaft.
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>> And don't get me started on the way Renault don't sell spare components, but spare
>> "assemblies". At the time the Haynes manual was published, you couldn't even buy a CV
>> gaiter as a spare part - you replaced the entire driveshaft.
Because thats the way Renault buy them in. The cars are series of sub-assemblies, all subbed out, or bought in from other companies. They leave it to them to provide service parts for them - or not - as the case may be.
NSK, for example, used to make bearings. They now make bearings, but only to assemble into complete hubs, power steering systems, etc to ship to the car builders.
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>> Because thats the way Renault buy them in. The cars are series of sub-assemblies, all
>> subbed out, or bought in from other companies. They leave it to them to provide
>> service parts for them - or not - as the case may be.
Makes sense, Zero. A bit annoying from a customer perspective, though, not to mention environmentally dubious having to replace good parts unnecessarily.
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'Indie' garages have been known to mess up many a timing belt chenge on the 'K'- and 'F'-series DOHC Renault engines.
The crank and (cam) drive sprockets are not 'keyed' in any way - by a Woodruff key, for example - and are retained solely by the crank pulley bolt and camshaft nuts. The (stretch) pulley bolt must be renewed and carefully tightened. No timing marks exist either, this being achieved with simple locking tools.
If the job is done properly, the design works perfectly - but cutting corners usually leads to disaster!
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>> The crank and (cam) drive sprockets are not 'keyed' in any way - by a Woodruff key, >> for example - and are retained solely by the crank pulley bolt and camshaft nuts.
Ford used a similar system on the cam pulleys on their small Zetec (Sigma) engines, and also the later versions of the Endura DE. One big advantage of this, is that by leaving the cam pulley(s) slack when you tension the belt, they rotate freely as the tensioner is applied to the belt. This applies the tension to the whole belt run, not just part of the belt between the crank and cam on the tensioner side. The cams themselves are locked in position by means of plates on their tail ends, and cannot move during this procedure.
As you say, if done incorrectly, or without the right locking tools, it's a disaster, but with the correct tools it's a good system. The Ford cam pulleys are a taper fit to the shafts, which is very secure when the retaining bolt is correctly torqued. Indeed the taper joint takes some separating once you undo the retaining bolt.
I seem to recall someone posting in the other place about a belt change on their Fiesta at a franchised dealer which resulted in the valve timing being incorrect and poor running. The thing is, with the correct tools, it's pretty much idiot proof.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 11:47
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>> Ford used a similar system on the cam pulleys on their small Zetec (Sigma) engines,
>> and also the later versions of the Endura DE.
also used on the larger Zetecs, I had to do a cam belt, tensioner (and valves) on my Mondeo, after some clown only did the belt 3k before.....
That was a 2.0ltr black top.
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>>On Nicoles old Clio, the cambelt (full kit) and waterpump was changed for £195 at an indy. <<
Still expensive though - compared to a Mrk 111 Cortina :)
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The mark 111 Cortina is not worth £195.
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Timing gears are fitted on Industrial engines which take more punishment, Cars won't fit many of these will they after all they want the belts to break & timing chains stretch/break with poor oil supply & lack of oil changes.
The nissan TD-27 just runs and runs fitted with timing gears on the industrail lump & can do 500k without major problems.
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Timing gear trains are heavy, noisy and expensive.
All undesirable qualities in passenger cars.
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Not to mention you are stuffed if you ever need to have the head skimmed...
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This is where your drawer full of various thickness head gaskets get used.
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Usaully 3x sizes of head gaskets we never had a problem with it.
Noisey well Not the gears no on that engine it was the tappets.
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Just wondered how this turned out Mapmaker? Car sorted? Any luck going back to the first garage for a claim?
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In all fairness to the garage, it would be interesting to know exactly what you asked them to do ~ in other words, how your instruction was worded.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 13 Nov 10 at 12:32
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I have not seen this thread before having only been on here infrequently recently.
The £69 charged for belt by the first garage was enough to include tensioners.
The £250 charged for a belt by the secong garage was a complete rip off IMO.
It seems reasonable to assume that the failure was as a result of faulty workmanship by the first garage, over torquing threads etc.
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>>>The £69 charged for belt by the first garage was enough to include tensioners. The £250 charged for a belt by the secong garage was a complete rip off IMO.
You've not looked up the Subaru belt kit prices I guess?
Cheapest on Ebay with no brand stated £140-£170 depending on engine number.
Proper Gates kit from an online Japanese car part supplier £234 + carriage.
www.japanesemotorspares.co.uk/product_info.php?pName=subaru-legacy-20-bp5-ej204-gates-cambelt-timing-belt-kit
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>> You've not looked up ...>>
OK thanks, though that further suggests faulty workmanship by the 1st garage, aside from which if I was the OP I would be after getting the £240 back from the 2nd garage.
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>>> that further suggests faulty workmanship by the 1st garage.
Very true.
>>> if I was the OP I would be after getting the £240 back from the 2nd garage.
Why?
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>>
>> Why?
>>
Cos it was an interferance engine with a loose belt so they should have checked for damage before attemtping to fit a new belt.
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It was an engine that stopped. No way could you prove the damage was not there before they started. In truth it was probably already wrecked before they got their hands on it.
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>> In truth it was probably already wrecked before they got their
>> hands on it.
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That why they shouldn't have wasted the OP's money by trying to fit another belt.
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Garage 2 had a choice of three ways to go about this....
Tell the guy it would need a new engine/heads for x thousand pounds without looking at anything. Would many people accept this without exploring the chance they might have got away with it?
Fit a new timing belt kit for the chance the engine had escaped damage therefore getting the best value result if the OPs luck was in.
Start pulling the heads off to see what the damage was (almost easiest as an engine out job on many Subarus) thereby producing a huge bill... and a new timing belt kit would still be needed if all was OK. In that circumstance if there was found to be no damage I think the OP would be asking why they didn't try fitting a timing belt kit first.
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>>
>> Fit a new timing belt kit for the chance the engine had escaped damage therefore
>> getting the best value result if the OPs luck was in.
>>
Though the OP says " Time up engine and refit old belt to test, found the engine to have been damaged".
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I was guessing they had to buy the kit to get the tensioners??? As you are not supposed to re-fit a belt they may have saved the new belt for final fittment if/when things were proved to be OK.
Anyway the reason I feel strongly about this is sometimes you have to realise if you chase a garage into a corner over fault/charges whichever way they try and repair *your* car where they were not at all responsible for the initial failure then in reality they'd be better refusing to try and help.
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>> Thoughts?
>>
Mapmaker - any developments on this?
Last edited by: John H on Fri 19 Nov 10 at 10:51
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Timing belts & problems... - Old Navy
