Been driving most of today, thank goodness not near Edinburgh or Glasgow. All the traffic news from up there seems to have consisted of most of the motorways/main roads/bypasses being closed at some stage today so that the Pope could make his leisurely progress with Prince Phil from airport to city centre in Edinburgh, then Holyrood to have lunch and a chat with Liz, then Glasgow etc. Must have caused chaos - but question is - why is this necessary? Why can't Popey take his chances with the rest on the roads? He could even wave to a few road users and give them a smile, a blessing, scatter a few drops of holy water or even a plenary indulgence - now that would be useful. Could do with a plenary indulgence or two. Don't think I'll get past St Peter without a plenary indulgennce or two.
Phil (no not that one)
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Why we get all this fuss for a man who wears a frock and is just that, a man, a man who goes to the toilet, who eats, drinks and has probably puked up at some time, well it's beyond me !
It's all hocus pocus and the biggest con trick of all time.
There is no God.
When I get some religious type knocking on my door on a sunny, note sunny, Sunday, I always ask the same question.
Who was Enocks mother ?
Always floors them.
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Be thankful that the Pontiff isn't the leader of another religeon, such comments could cause an early demise, not by divine methods or means either.
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I wasn't effected, I was in Edinburgh yesterday, saw what was coming traffic wise with the roads to be closed and I kept clear, the A8/M8 had several rolling road blocks and the news said that M77 was closed and used as a bus park for 400 busses.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 16 Sep 10 at 20:27
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What the OP describes is bog standard state visit stuff. Happens everywhere whenever bigwigs gather. I imagine there'll be some in London too.
What I seem to detect in many posts on this subject are a lot of energy being wasted on a couple of soft targets, and a certain amount of furtive, masked Protestant whining. Of course a lot of it has been whipped up by our fabulous free press.
No point in trying to explain the political role of a pontiff to people who think the pope is an ex-Nazi and child molester's shyster. Tabloid readers just don't understand that sort of thing. Too poncy for them in their honest straightforward idiocy.
And who knows, perhaps they are right. They don't look it or sound it, but perhaps they are. Don't give a damn personally.
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I'm a supporter of the Royal Family, but used to get a bit narked in London when I had to sit in traffic so one of them could ride non-stop through the centre of town.
Bit of a novelty the first time it happened, but that soon wore off.
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Religious fanaticism of whatever flavour is the root, excuse and control system for urging ignorant masses to take arms and attempt the conquer and subjugation or eradication of other ignorant masses to the benefit of a few of the people in charge of their particular band of ignorant masses. Most of the major world religions rely upon the threat of eternal despair and the promise of eternal joy to excercise control. Sadly, most of mankind still responds best to these primitive and simplistic reward and punishment motivations and those seeking power, wealth and control rely upon that.
Ignorant masses fail to grasp that the key to the next level of human development is that of cooperation and mutual support regardless of cultural and geographic boundarys. Those who seek power will of course continue to encourage the divisions. It suits their agenda better.
Sadly, for the foreseeable future, perhaps in perpetuity, this will continue to be the case.
The irony of course being that most major religions or sub-sects of them purport to teach and encourage tolerance and equanimity when in fact they are cleverly elitist.
For my part, I don't think I align myself with any of them other than a general feeling of trying to ensure that I treat others with the respect they deserve until they no longer deserve it.
Um..... So there !
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Thu 16 Sep 10 at 21:31
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"Ignorant masses fail to grasp that the key to the next level of human development is that of cooperation and mutual support regardless of cultural and geographic boundarys."
The ignorant masses flock to religion because they have a desire to believe in something, be part of a larger group, to be comforted by the rituals rules and rigour.
So the choice is catholic, muslim, hells angel, or freemason.
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>> No point in trying to explain the political role of a pontiff to people who
>> think the pope is an ex-Nazi and child molester's shyster. Tabloid readers just don't understand
>> that sort of thing. Too poncy for them in their honest straightforward idiocy.
And actually my old fruit, the Pontifex Maximus, is less political, more sets the moral direction and policy of the church. The College of Cardinals has little say with most popes.
Naff all to do with politics, you cant elect the pontiff out he doesent have to be popular.
So think carefully of likening us to a lot of whining tabloid reading protestants.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 16 Sep 10 at 21:30
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65k people. A lot of disruption for only 65k people.
Celtic park seats ~60k folks? We don't have that level of disruption for an old firm football match.
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We don't have that level of disruption for an old
>> firm football match.
>>
No, but probable a bit more "Christian" fundamentalism! ;-)
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>> you cant elect the pontiff out he doesent have to be popular.
Since when, Zeddo my lad, have people with a political or state role necessarily been elected or, cough, choke, gasp, goddam 'popular' for God's sake?
As I said: pointless to try to explain this stuff to tabloid gobblers. They just don't get it.
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Aren't they 'elected' in the first place, albeit not by their subjects, and in some very inefficient way presumably as it takes ages before the fumata bianca comes out of the chimbley?
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 16 Sep 10 at 22:26
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My brother phoned me at half eight this morning.
"Guess what I am doing right now"
don't know, tell me..
"I am doing 65mph over the Kingston Bridge at half eight in the morning"!!!
Roads were deserted in and around Glasgow today. Still can't understand why he wasn't helicoptered through from Edinburgh though. I suppose by taking him along the M8, it means all the bodyguards etc can go with him. Throwing him in a helicopter would probably mean needing double the amount of guards.
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He's not in London until the weekend but there are road closures around Parliament Square from tomorrow. A colleague with kids at school in the area is concerned about their ability to get home, particularly if the school decides to finish early.
Even today there is significant disruption as crowd barriers etc were being set up.
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Well, I read The Sun, and will continue to do so until those silly upmarjet newpapers decide to print it on a sensible sized peice of paper that can be held and read comfortably.
AC, sometimes you make me so angry.
Pat
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Humph, your post said it all for me... and whilst people are still desperate for some reasurance that there is something there for them after they die we won't be able to move on to a nicer society...
Luckily I'm off on Sunday when he comes to Brum, so I'll be staying at home doing something more useful... ;-)
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I am off to Edinburgh later this morning, the only disruption I expect is the removal of the miles of unused crowd control barriers that you did not see on the TV.
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It really is a hangover from feudal times, isn't it? There's an ultimate ruling class that rides roughshod over the rest of us without even thinking about it.
It's not just disruption of daily life for the proles, it's a sort of ultimate superiority theory - some individuals are entitled, by whatever means, to trappings of privilege.
Here's an example. If you go to see the world's oldest and most famous cave paintings, at Lascaux in SW France, what you will see is a (very cleverly and expertly done) fake of the real thing, because mere humans are not allowed near one of their most ancient artifacts. Last week Sarkozy took time off from the long-standing French tradition of deporting undesirables to go there and guess what? The Dwarf and his entourage were allowed to see the real thing. I guess he would say that he was democratically elected to a position of privilege. I would say democracy means that he should share his advantages with the rest of us - and try to muddle along as we all have to do.
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>> sometimes you make me so angry.
Not intentionally, Pat. I hadn't noticed you droning on about the pope and queen to show how cool you are and how no one can pull the wool over your eyes...
There is a tabloid-sized broadsheet paper you could read instead of the currant bun though. It is called The Times, and it is owned by the same malevolent offshore billionaire as your comic. I don't read it myself very often. They are all comics really.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 17 Sep 10 at 10:36
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I take either The Telegraph or The Sun when I make the morning call into our village shop. I tell him quite truthfully on the days I take a Sun it's because I haven't time to read a paper.
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I know it's not intentional AC:)
Normally I read, but fail to understand your waffling, and put it down to the fact that you love to write!
So I indulge you, now be good:)
Pat
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>> your waffling
Oh, I say! Waffling indeed... you've really hurt my feelings now...
Mutter. Mumble. No smiley.
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Well in your own bohemian, left wing aged hippy way, you do waffle.
As Do i in my ignorant chirpy cockney whats in it for me way.
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I think AC is a closet roman candle actually.
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>> closet roman candle
That's what they say Zeddo, once a cath always a cath.
I'm not though. I just like accuracy in some things.
It's a bit like hearing Britain being slagged off by foreigners. We'd rather do it ourselves because we actually know what we're talking about. All they have is a bit of distorted info and a lot of alien bile. Capisce?
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>> >> I just like accuracy in some things.
Accuracy and Religion... Not really related... Rather like Clampers and Fair Play....
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>> Accuracy and Religion... Not really related...
You are not alone, hobbyhorse, in imagining that your ignorane of other people's religions entitles you to spout any old unpleasant garbage about them citing authorities in the tabloid media. Many here clearly take the same view, although there have been a couple of attempts at measured comment.
I have no religion. I am an atheist these 52 years. I have friends who are Christians of assorted stripes (mainstream though, nothing louche), Muslim and yes, West African animists. We don't hide our basic views from each other and understand one another perfectly.
How could that be? Something to do with accuracy perhaps, seriousness about truth. Not just vulgar abuse except sometimes for a bit of fun.
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>> friends who are Christians of assorted stripes (mainstream though, nothing louche), Muslim and yes, West African animists
I can't think why I didn't include Jews in the list. Perhaps because no one I know is really practising. I have an impression though that atheist Jews, like atheist Muslims and for all I know atheist Catholics, do retain a few tatty rags of well-hidden religiosity here and there. By the same token I sometimes get the impression that religious Jews have a surprising atheist side.
Perhaps I should have included mainly ex-Trots and communists too. Those faiths are surprisingly religious sometimes.
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Put me in the tatty ragged Protestant atheist ranks then AC
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>> >> Accuracy and Religion... Not really related...
>>
>> You are not alone, hobbyhorse, in imagining that your ignorane of other people's religions entitles
>> you to spout any old unpleasant garbage about them citing authorities in the tabloid media.
AC, I am stating a fact, its nothing to do with any garbage from tabloids and I object strongly to the sarcastic tone of your post.
You will know (as you know all about everything!) that whilst some of the religious "books" are based roughly on real occurences they are also highly inaccurate in much of what they say... And I also object to being lectured on morals by religions that have less of a handle on such things as I do looking at evidence of what they do "in the name of religion"...
I couldn't give a toss what you religious beliefs are, or your relations to others (for the record I work with people of many faiths and get on with them as well), but I am getting sick of your snide jibes.
Last edited by: hobby on Sat 18 Sep 10 at 09:16
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>> I object strongly to the sarcastic tone of your post.
>> I couldn't give a toss what you religious beliefs are, or your relations to others (for the record I work with people of many faiths and get on with them as well), but I am getting sick of your snide jibes.
Ouch! Clearly I have given offence. I don't usually mean to.
It's true that as far as I can remember you are not one of those who retailed partial tabloid-based information to sneer at the Pope, the Queen and the state visit. Various others seemed to be doing that though, and in the heat of the moment I misunderstood your reference to accuracy.
I seem to remember getting you slightly wrong on something on at least one other occasion. Hope it doesn't keep happening or we will have an imaginary disagreement.
Sorry about that hobby. Please don't take it to heart.
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>> Sorry about that hobby. Please don't take it to heart.
>>
>>
>>
Ah the joys of the 'net and everything in black and white (or black and a shade of purply-pink on this computer!)... We're probably both interpreting things too literally... anyhow I think we can move on without coming to any harm.... I'll try better in the future! ;-)
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Five men arrested over 'plot to assassinate the Pope'
Anyone we know? ;>)
tinyurl.com/322lvpa
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Intersting post BT.
The suspects apparently worked for Westminster Council's street cleaning contractor. Had to travel twice yesterday to meetings near St James Park. Two guys in police overalls were checking the street furniture, unlocking the control cubicles in street lamps and using some device to snigg/examine the cavities inside.
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There's a good Matt cartoon in today's Telegraph.
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what did they plan to do? beat him to death with a rubbish sack?
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The IRA liked to plant bombs in street bins (Ellesmere Port was such a case) the bin made pretty horrific shrapnel.
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The best was postboxes.
I started work in 1973, visiting offices in Central London. They were blowing up post boxes, now they DID make great shrapnel. I'd like to say I paid no consequence to the IRA at all, but I lie. I did cross the road to the other side from a post box.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Sep 10 at 15:53
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Don't think it has much to do with shrapnel.
If you are going to leave a bomb to detonate later, by whatever means, you have to hide it somewhere.
A vehicle is one option, but they are often cleared from the area, so street furniture, or the drains, is what you have left.
These are often searched and sealed with a little stick-on rubber seal before the VIP goes past.
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Well if yesterday's mas is anything to go by, if you want to get him, buy one of those lifelike baby dolls and fill with explosive!
Twice yesterday they stopped the popemobile and wound down the windows to pass a baby through to be blessed.
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>> Don't think it has much to do with shrapnel.
Ah but it does iffy, and containment of the explosive in a sealed or semi sealed space intensifies it.
A pound or two of semtex wont create too much outside a fairly small perimiter, but stick it in a metal case, and you can massively increase the range of danger.
True it helps to hide it as well.
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An unusual thread this with a fair amount of expertise being offered by those who seemingly have no faith.
I wonder how many here married in church and had their children baptised?
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'I wonder how many here married in church and had their children baptised?'
Not here on both counts but I'm sure most have.
IMO they do it through tradition rather than faith. I think that if the churches stopped offering these services to the 'not botherds' the church might lose even more contact with potential flocks - and would have to work harder to survive!
We're just not a deeply religious nation which is why other religions manage to get such a strong foothold here.
Can of worms opened....
Last edited by: Enoughalready on Fri 17 Sep 10 at 19:15
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Yep, I was married in church. Twice in fact. It was because it was what both my wives wanted or to be more accurate what both of their mothers wanted. On the second occasion the Minister was also a neighbour and friend. I was honest with him about my views but he was more than welcoming despite that. He understood, or said he did that faith can take many forms, some of which do not include formal recognition of set worship guidelines but are more about the upholding of certain moral and social values.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Fri 17 Sep 10 at 19:49
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I was raised a Catholic and i'm a poor lost lapsed soul who though still believing in the Catholic faith and church i don't attend regularly.
Like many others i try my damnedest to be a decent honourable person and treat everyone i meet with respect, which is usually reciprocated even in these strange days.
I feel extremely uncomfortable with some of the views expressed in this thread, barely veiled mocking insults of the faith that some people do really have, rightly or wrongly.
They may be succumbing to the worlds biggest con and propping up the worlds best money making scam but it's their choice to do so.
I have no problem with anyone who doesn't have religious beliefs and i respect their choice in this, maybe they could show a little consideration and not openly mock the millions of people who do have strong faith and feel better for the fellowship that their faith brings despite it's many shortcomings.
I was married in church the first time when a young man, we felt it was right and our children were baptized Catholic too and educated through excellent Catholic schools, and one was buried in a Catholic service despite his suicide.
That marriage unfortunately faltered some 20 years ago, in the intervening years i lost much faith for various reasons.
When i was lucky enough to marry She Who Must who isn't religious we were wed at a registry office, both of us feeling it would be hypocritical to use a church.
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no posts from me GB
i agree with you
my family background is deeply religious on my mothers side
ive not been to church since i didnt have to apart from the usual family reasons
i do like going to churches for their architecture though
on the religious side ive had 2 yes 2 suicides in my family in the last 4 weeks (wifes side) its a complicated thing but at times the church do indeed give support to vulnerable people left behind etc
ps got married int register office and i want burying in a wood no vicar flowers or weeps..............
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>> on the religious side ive had 2 yes 2 suicides in my family in the
>> last 4 weeks (wifes side) its a complicated thing but at times the church do
>> indeed give support to vulnerable people left behind etc
My thoughts are with you and your loved ones BB, a truly awful time.
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I mock no one of any persuasion or none for that matter. How we all relate to our spirtuality is a matter of an entirely personal nature. I have only stated my own outlook. I certainly do not seek to criticise anyone else's.
I would describe my position not as lacking faith as such but of lacking faith in the formalised bodies which purport to nurture it. Those organisations have been the instigators of much human atrocity for time immemorial.
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BB thoughts are with you and you do make a valid point re the church being there to help cope with loss.
GB , agree with your comments and you have put into words some of my thoughts. I bowed out earlier after some comments but they were subsequently removed.
I was baptised a Catholic, married in Chapel, wife and kids are catholic and were there to see the pope yesterday in Glasgow. I have various issues now re Catholicism and I daresay I could deal with them if it was important enough to me. I also have friends who are priests and I object to Catholic bashing. I do not know enough about history to defend it or whatever but as with anything in life there are always two sides to stories esp in history and until I have both those sides I dont feel able to comment. But whilst I do that, I will also try my best to be a good Christian and try and uphold moral values and teach my kids right from wrong. And that includes accepting other religions creeds and cultures.
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>and I object to Catholic bashing
Probably the result of a thousand years of oppression, double standards, greed and control. I find nothing about the catholic church to be worthy of praise.
However becoming a radical loyalist protestant and killing catholics in the name of the queen is just as bad, possibly worse.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 18 Sep 10 at 14:01
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Whether you are or are not 'of faith' shouldn't matter a fig to anyone else. In a democracy you should be able to politely express either.
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I'm agnostic/atheist (well I cannot disprove the existence of a god). Although I refer here to 'Mrs B' SWMBO and I have never married and our kids have never been christened. I attend church out of repect/compliance for weddings & funerals and by choice on remembrance day.
I've no intention of offending those of an alternative persuasion but have serious reservations about influence of organised religion whether wee free or shi'ite!!
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Fundamental Atheist here believeing that all religious orders and hierarchy we have today only exist to fulfill thier own lifestyles/power/position/wealth.
Not married in church, child not christened, lined up for a humanist service when my time comes. Will attend church only on the behest of others, but will not actively participate in the way of prayers, song or any form of worship.
All religious teachings around creation are based on not one iota of fact or provable science and talk of ultimate dieties or greater beings is hogwash.. The catholic church is the worse of these, hell bent on power and control.
Suprisingly very interested in the history, architecture and decoration of all the places of worship around the world, and will always visit them where accesible around the world.
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I was not christened, being brought up with Quakerism. Quakers very sensibly believe that you cannot choose your child's religion. Neither of my children has been christened. Neither was I married in church.
Not a believer in a Supreme Being, but ready to acknowledge that for some religious faith can be about more than that. I doubt that anywhere near half of the Quakers I have known have a literal belief in a supreme being, biblical creation, miracles and the resurrection.
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I was chistened and went to church (under duress) when I was a child... But all I want is to live a decent life, trying to do the right thing, and for that I don't feel that I need any help from any beliefs... I have my own set of morals, which needless to say are similar to those of most religions, which are also the same as any civillised society...
But one thing I would ask, is that if someone expresses their view on something to me I have the right to challenge that view, and not be told that its wrong to challenge that view simply because it could offend someone's religion. It seems to me that there are a lot of tollerent people out there, both religious and non, but there are an awful lot who feel that it is not acceptable for people to challenge their views if it is about their religion, even though they feel its acceptable to force theirs on you...
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Yes, why do you never get gangs of Atheists or Agnostics knocking on your door trying to convert you or sell you the latest copy of Darwins weekly?
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"why do you never get gangs of Atheists or Agnostics knocking on your door"
Or trying to hide from ridicule behind blasphemy laws
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Nothing says "In God we trust" like having to drive everywhere in a bulletproof buggy, having miles of roads around you closed off to the great unwashed, charging the great unwashed £25 to see you, and needing up to £1.5m worth of police protection for a four-day visit. ;-)
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An Agnostic doesn't know, an Atheist doesn't believe...somewhere in the middle is someone who couldn't care less either way...and thinks that much arguing and fighting has occurred over the years when one clan/gang/country/religion takes a dislike to another one.
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My grandmother still rigidly bans both religion and politics as topics of conversation in her house. "Between them, the root of all wars" she says.
I find it quite hard to argue with her. Assuming I'd dare of course, which I wouldn't ;-)
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...bans both religion and politics as topics of conversation in her house...
An old saying was discuss neither politics nor religion in a pub.
An updated version might include internet forums. :)
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That only leaves sport and sex.
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...That only leaves sport and sex...
I like watching one, but don't actually do a lot of either.
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"That only leaves sport and sex"
And motoring?
When I made my original post I mistakenly thought that it might provoke one or two replies on the motoring problems caused by the Pope's "roadblocks" and whether they were justified.
Little did I realise that it would almost result in religious war!!
As someone who was brought up a Catholic, went through agnosticism and now thinks that Dawkins doesn't go far enough in his denial of "a God" I read all the comments with interest.
By the way, I have no problem with people who have faith in "God" of whatever persuasion - I just don't discuss it!
As Dave Allen used to say "May your God be with you"
Phil
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>> I like watching one,
Ahhhh the drop top makes sense now :-P
Last edited by: Skoda on Sat 18 Sep 10 at 12:53
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...Ahhhh the drop top makes sense now :...
Quite so, peer over a hedge in this part of Yorkshire on a sunny summer afternoon and you will often see people...
...playing a game of cricket.
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His Holiness, the rolling road block. - MrTee43
