Motoring Discussion > Tyres question Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Bobby Replies: 63

 Tyres question - Bobby
No doubt setting myself up for a doing here.......

My X1 is FWD with part time AWD when needed (no idea if my rear wheel drive have ever kicked in)

Car is 23k miles now and still on the original Bridgestones.

Back in August I swapped the tyres front to rear and there was a noticeable difference between the tread levels. So fronts now have about 5mm but backs are about 2mm.

So logic says I need to replace the two tyres.

However I would like to ultimately have the car running on Michelin Crossclimates all round. However I cannot justify to replace all 4 just now when the fronts have so much tread on them and I am working from home so not doing many miles.

So;
1. Can I put two new Crossclimates on one axel and keep the Bridgestones on the other? I believe the CC are sometimes described as "summer tyres with winter features".
2. If yes, which axle should I put them on? *Contrary to public opinion I always want new tyres on the front of a FWD car. However would it make sense to put them on rear as, if the AWD has to kick in, it will probably be in wintry conditions so the all seasons would be better there? Or put them on the front which are the driven and steering wheels?

Thoughts?

*I know folk say put good tyres on rears. My fronts drive the car and steer the car. I never drive the car in such a way that I am at risk of my rear ending swinging out or overtaking the front , which seems to be the reason why putting on rears is recommended.
 Tyres question - Robin O'Reliant
>>
>> *I know folk say put good tyres on rears. My fronts drive the car and
>> steer the car. I never drive the car in such a way that I am
>> at risk of my rear ending swinging out or overtaking the front , which seems
>> to be the reason why putting on rears is recommended.
>>

I believe the reason new tyres are put on the rear is because on low mileage cars the rears can be on for far longer than is safe and the rubber will degrade.
 Tyres question - sooty123
If you want 4xwhatevers then fit them, don't tie yourself up in knots about it.

If you're hard up, sell the 5mm ones on ebay /gumtree etc. Someone will buy them.
 Tyres question - No FM2R
Right with Sooty here.
 Tyres question - Manatee
They put new tyres on the back for safety reasons. Handling-wise, if there is a difference in grip then having more at the back is safer.

Both ends of your car steer. Imagine what would happen if you had casters on the back - very similar to what happens when the back tyres lose traction and the front doesn't! You won't die just because you put the new ones on the front. But if you do lose it in a bend, you'll have the best grip at the wrong end.

In general, four wheel drive cars should have the same diameter tyres front and rear to preclude transmission wind up. That implies moving them around to wear them evenly and replacing them in fours. Different make tyres are likely to have a slightly different diameter anyway Does yours literally have no torque sent to the rear at all unless it slips, or just say 10%?

Continental say

"The tyre industry recommends fitting the new tyres onto the rear axle. This will provide greater grip to the rear axle and mitigate any potential oversteer condition or loss of vehicle stability on slippery surfaces"
 Tyres question - Zero

>> Both ends of your car steer. Imagine what would happen if you had casters on
>> the back -

Far worse if you had casters at the front
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>>
>> >> Both ends of your car steer. Imagine what would happen if you had casters
>> on
>> >> the back -
>>
>> Far worse if you had casters at the front


Why? Would it be throwing aspersions everywhere?

Or did we, perhaps, mean castors?
 Tyres question - tyrednemotional
>> >>
>> casters
>>
>> Or did we, perhaps, mean castors?
>>

...sure did, sugar! ;-)
 Tyres question - No FM2R
Please don't call me that in public, honey.
 Tyres question - Zero
>> Or did we, perhaps, mean castors?

We might of.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 1 Dec 20 at 11:07
 Tyres question - No FM2R
That's just so mean. It sets my teeth on edge.
 Tyres question - Bobby
Yeah the X1 is FWD unless some gizmos decide that the car also needs its RWD.
Sadly, unlike my Hyundai which had similar setup, there isnt a manual override button to physically engage the rears when you want to.

I remember once in the ix35 spinning the rear of the car out deliberately. Was a frosty icy morning, as I was leaving my road there was a steep hill to the left at the junction. Half way round I floored the accelerator, the fronts spun in the ice which brought the rear drive in, which then kicked the rear out.

If setting out in similar conditions I would prefer to be able to manually switch the AWD on from outset so there arent any frights like that! But not possible on the X1.

(I would consider just replacing the two tyres with the same Bridgestones that are already on it but I find these to be very noisy on poor road surfaces, an opinion which is echoed in one of the X1 forums)
 Tyres question - Zero
Do you have runflats?
 Tyres question - Bobby
No they are not runflats.
 Tyres question - tyrednemotional
>>
>> If setting out in similar conditions I would prefer to be able to manually switch
>> the AWD on from outset so there aren't any frights like that! But not possible
>> on the X1.

...you can activate DTC, though, which takes you at least a good way there (and is designed for such conditions).

>> (I would consider just replacing the two tyres with the same Bridgestones that are already
>> on it but I find these to be very noisy on poor road surfaces, an
>> opinion which is echoed in one of the X1 forums)
>>

...and as I mentioned when you were first asking questions (I raised it as about the only negative point of the car).
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Mon 30 Nov 20 at 20:35
 Tyres question - Bobby
DTC? That the standard traction control that is always on?
 Tyres question - tyrednemotional
DSC (stability control) is on by default.

If you quick push the DSC button, it turns DSC off, and DTC on (the two are very different beasts, and don't work together). The dash will indicate DSC Off, and Traction. A further quick push reverts.


A push of around 10 seconds on the DSC button deactivates DSC, with another quick push reverting. The dash will indicate DSC Off. (Not many circumstances under which you would do this).


Caveat - The system is definitely as above; I'm pretty sure this is the process, but I'm working from memory.
 Tyres question - Fullchat
This very topic has caused extensive debate on the Sportage and Sorento forums.

The concerns are that due to the 4X4 transmission being part time then a big disparity in the tyre circumference will be confusing the sensors and trying to activate the 4WD

Rotation of tyres and keeping the disparity within 2mm seemed to be the guidance.

Then recommendations to put new tyres on the front which is against the industry recommendation to put fresh rubber on the rear on any vehicle.

Certainly concerns were voiced regarding transmission warranty claims, in that the first thing they would check is that the tyres all had similar circumferences.

The jury is still out :/ with continuing difference in opinion. So it may be worth trawling the BMW forums or a good read of the handbook to see that you are not leaving yourself exposed regarding a warranty claim, if infact that is the case.
 Tyres question - No FM2R
Of the 4x4s I've had only VW were very insistent about tyres of similar tread depth were used. And they were very insistent indeed.

Ford, Toyota, Dodge and Nissan don't seem to think it is a matter of great significance.
 Tyres question - Zero
On tinternet, there are reports of mismatched tyres causing reliability issues with "real" BMW X-Drives.
 Tyres question - Bobby
Mmm this looks convincing
youtu.be/A5aMnmekA38
 Tyres question - bathtub tom
General advice is to put new tyres on the rear, so the worn out ones on the front cause understeer, ie. you go through the hedge forwards.
Put new tyres on the front and the worn ones on the rear cause you to oversteer and go through the hedge backwards.
I prefer to go through the hedge backwards. I don't want to see what I'm about to hit!
 Tyres question - Bobby
Or alternatively drive carefully, well within limits for the conditions, and do neither!
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>> General advice is to put new tyres on the rear, so the worn out ones
>> on the front cause understeer, ie. you go through the hedge forwards.
>> Put new tyres on the front and the worn ones on the rear cause you
>> to oversteer and go through the hedge backwards.
>> I prefer to go through the hedge backwards. I don't want to see what I'm
>> about to hit!


Excellent real world explanation.

I sort of agree except that my reason would be that I find the a*** sliding easier to control than dealing with a car which has just decided to go straight ahead with no meaningful steering.
 Tyres question - Kevin
One of the advantages of having the most worn tyres on the front is that you can feel it through the steering when the road surface gets slippery.
Hanging the tail out can be fun when it's intentional or expected but no fun at all when it takes you by surprise.
 Tyres question - Terry
There may be a disconnect between what is theoretically right and what most car owners do.

Putting new tyres on the rear may be technically corrent - but as noted means you go through the hedge on full understeer facing forward (if you drive like a clown and/or it's very icy)

But from the day a new car is driven off the forecourt, front and rear tyres wear at different rates.

Most simply replace whichever tyres are worn, ideally as an axle set. Some swap rear to front following advice (possibly from the tyre fitter) to fit new tyres on the rear. A very few routinely rotate tyres either at services, or with extended service intervals, between services.

In truth I suspect the real safety benefit comes through replacing tyres well before they get close to 1.6mm - I usually change at 2.5-3.0mm particularly if autumn is approaching!
 Tyres question - Rudedog
So where does that leave my handbook advice on rotating tyres to even out wear?

I'm about to move my rears to the front to improve grip over the winter and then I should be in line for a full set in the spring (Michelin PS4's).

I know the rears are not new tyres but they probably have about twice the tread depth of the front.

 Tyres question - smokie
A comment further up reminded me that when I had a pair of new tyres 1) the dealership wanted to fit them at the opposite end to the one i thought they should be and 2) the different circumference caused the cruise control to cut out from time to time when on a fast bend and not even under undue stress (I suspect the ABS was on the edge) - spmewhat disconcerting!

I documented it here.

www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=27123&m=591789

 Tyres question - Rudedog
I could maybe understand if there was a big difference in the circumferences from left to right on the front axle but rear axle to front?

 Tyres question - Terry
I seem to recall that in the good old days a proper 4x4 ideally needed three differentials - one on the back axle, one on the front, and one in the centre to split the drive between front and rear.

With the full set up each differential could be locked separately so that in very severe conditions you could direct the drive to the wheel with most grip, rather than that which most easily slipped. On Series Land Rovers I believe each of the front wheels could be locked separately!

If you locked the diff, the advice was usually to limit your speed as thhis would stress the drivetrain through different wheel circumference or even turning a corner.

This was a complex solution for most needs other than operations in very severe terrain. So predictably manufacturers cut out some of the complexity by eliminating the centre diff, and the ability to lock them. Some functionality was replaced by the use of limited slip differentials.

We now have lots of clever electronic systems and controls which means that 4x4 means different things on different vehicles - save the fact that the capacity provides the ability for all four wheel to be driven some of the time.

Best solution is probably to follow the owners manual or manufacturers guidance - if for no other reason than preserving the possibility of warranty support in the event of a claim.
 Tyres question - Slightlyfatdirector
Hi Bobby,

Irrespective of the 4x4 aspect, I was looking at doing something similar with my daughter's 2wd Clio. Two damaged tyres were on it with the other two in good to almost new condition and I wanted to put Cross Climates on to replace the two that were damaged, but the other two were normal Primacy's.

I messaged Michelin and they are really helpful and came back to say that this would not be recommended to mix Cross Climates with two other tyres. They gave a detailed explanation which I do not have to hand sadly, so you could always ask them in the case of your car / tyre size what their comments would be.

As there was a really good offer (with cashback from one of the companies that do this) I bit the bullet and replaced all 4 tyres with the cross climates and will sell on the primacy's on eBay when I get round to it. At least I know she has the best rubber all round for the most risk reduction.
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>>At least I know she has the best rubber all round for the most risk reduction.

And that is the priority that I think we sometimes lose sight of when trying to eke out every last bit of mileage from our tyres.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 1 Dec 20 at 13:17
 Tyres question - Zero
>> >>At least I know she has the best rubber all round for the most risk
>> reduction.
>>
>> And that is the priority that I think we sometimes lose sight of when trying
>> to eke out every last bit of mileage from our tyres.

Yeah, it rains a lot in the uk, there are more days above 5 degrees than below it, so my car is shod with wet weather tyres. Most grip across most of the time.
 Tyres question - Zero
Its a real no no to mix different grip types of tyres o the same car.
 Tyres question - Bobby
And the cheapest place for my crossclimates just now is Kwik Fit...

Would that be brave?
 Tyres question - sooty123
Why would you need to be brave, you mean because it's Kwik Fit?
 Tyres question - Bobby
Yip.
Hate going there!
 Tyres question - sooty123
Why?
 Tyres question - Bobby
>>Why?

Cos they are a bunch of shysters trained to try and con folk with work that they don't need doing!
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>>Cos they are a bunch of shysters trained to try and con folk with work that they don't need doing!

Well they're not really, but if that is what you're worried about then you can always just say no to the extra work.
 Tyres question - sooty123
>> >>Why?
>>
>> Cos they are a bunch of shysters trained to try and con folk with work
>> that they don't need doing!
>>

They try and drum up work, quite possibly. But just say thanks for advice and move on.
Although not a massive user of them, I've used them for the odd mot or tyre and they were fine work quality wise. The further work thing doesn't bother me, but well bother others, each to their own.
 Tyres question - Zero
You are not taking the thing in for an MOT, you book online, you turn up, they fit tyres at the price you paid, you leave.
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>>They try and drum up work, quite possibly.

I don't know, but I would imagine it is part of their job description. It is for every other person in Sales, in any field.

I find them excellent for tyres, exhausts and the like. And for any job on suspension, brakes or similar of a level that I could do myself but for the lack of tools, time or interest. I well remember one night in Cambridge just before Christmas when they went more than the extra mile to replace a tyre on a wheel I did not have the locking nut key and which had,in any case, corroded past the point where it would work.

I wouldn't let them do seriously difficult stuff, but as far as I know they don't offer that sort of work anyway.

As for MOTs, by and large I try to avoid getting MOTs done by organisations who would also like to repair the vehicle, human nature being what it is.
 Tyres question - Bobby
OK took the plunge and ordered 4 to be fitted at my local ATS (owned by Michelin). Fitting on Saturday.

Overall £5 dearer than Kwik Fit but the £40 Just Eat voucher swung it for me :)
 Tyres question - No FM2R
I instinctively like the sound of the £40 Just Eat voucher, but what actually is it?
 Tyres question - Bobby
Assuming you have heard of Just Eat?
An app you use to order fast food
 Tyres question - Runfer D'Hills
Yeah, y'know, kebabs and so on. Oh wait...
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>> Yeah, y'know, kebabs and so on. Oh wait...

Near my house in the UK the kebab van is in a small village square with cobbled kerbs all the way around. I don't suppose you know what cobbled kerbs are like, coming from up north.

Oh wait....
 Tyres question - No FM2R
>> Assuming you have heard of Just Eat?

Nope, never heard of it. Like the sound of it though.
 Tyres question - RichardW

>> With the full set up each differential could be locked separately so that in very
>> severe conditions you could direct the drive to the wheel with most grip, rather than
>> that which most easily slipped. On Series Land Rovers I believe each of the front
>> wheels could be locked separately!

Diff locks only came in on LR on the Defender - Previous to that there was no diff lock, but no centre diff either, normal drive was 2x4 and you engaged 4WD when required - the Defender has full time 4WD with centre diff, and diff locks / low ratio box you can engage as required. The front wheels pre Defender were really the other way around - you could have free wheeling hubs which allowed you to disengage the hub from the drive train so that the front wheels weren't driving the axle / diff / transfer box - saved a few pennies in wear and fuel I guess.
 Tyres question - R.P.
Bobby,

I've Read most of this ! You've had 23k out of the tyres, which is very good. (really good). BMW auto gearboxes can have expensive complications with mismatched tyres according to the 'net. Buy a set of proper ones from a BMW dealer. They will match Kwik Fit prices to a certain extent. They're very good (they actually spotted corrosion on my 335's wheel and got it fixed under warranty). You're buying peace of mind that you won't get elsewhere by fitting tyres with BMW's approval stamp (a star) on them, so if there's ever a claim on the gearbox warranty, much less wriggle room for them - see forums for further details. This they'll even clean your car for you !
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 1 Dec 20 at 17:09
 Tyres question - Zero
>> Bobby,
>>
>> I've Read most of this ! You've had 23k out of the tyres, which is
>> very good. (really good).

Wot? Driven quite aggressively I got 34k out of mine. Much heavier car too.
 Tyres question - Bobby
tyrednemotional, cheers for that info, I genuinely didn't know that.
Played about with it today and is exactly as you describe.

Of course the AWD is supposed to kick in when you need it so no way of actually knowing whether the DTC is physically driving the rear wheels (or at least I couldn't determine). I suppose if I tried to reverse up a wet grassy slope or suchlike I might find out!

Thats what I love about this car, 18 months into the ownership and I am still finding out new features! Just love it!
 Tyres question - tyrednemotional
...I'm not so sure that DTC brings the four wheel drive in straight away. What it does do is inhibit DSC* and (I think) augment some of the "grip" characteristics by introducing braking on slipping wheels. The combined effect of that helps you escape/drive off in muddy/icy conditions. (Though I suspect that 4WD will come into play at some point).

*I had a Mondeo that was virtually undriveable slowly in snow, as the (default) DSC got ever so confused by various wheels slipping at different rates, and was constantly trying to correct it. Once I read up, the manual recommended DSC off in such conditions (and just about only in those conditions). It made a huge difference to starting/driving slowly on snow and ice.
 Tyres question - Bobby
Tyres got fitted yesterday (was supposed to be Saturday but they had them in stock).

Today woke to some snow (though not as bad as the East of Scotland got it).

But by time I got out my scratcher and then walked the dog, most of it was turning to slush!

For future use, when driving an Auto in snow, is there any specific technique to use? My car has ECO, normal and Sport settings - I am guessing ECO may be best as less agressive throttle response?

Assume in any level of snow, auto creep wont happen due to the resistance?
 Tyres question - Runfer D'Hills
No black magic techniques required Bobby, just go with the old imagining a glass of wine on the bonnet that you don't want to spill. Be fine.
;-)
 Tyres question - Zero
>> No black magic techniques required Bobby, just go with the old imagining a glass of
>> wine on the bonnet that you don't want to spill. Be fine.
>> ;-)

He's from t'other side, so that'l be a glass of Electric Soup.
 Tyres question - Bobby
Which side is that???

I can take a nice Barolo or Amarone anytime!
Though I do prefer a can of Tennents....
 Tyres question - Zero

>> Though I do prefer a can of Tennents....

Even tho they stopped putting blondes on the can?
 Tyres question - Lygonos
I think where Bobby's from it's Dragon Soop they consume.

www.dragonsoop.com/
 Tyres question - Zero
>> I think where Bobby's from it's Dragon Soop they consume.
>>
>> www.dragonsoop.com/

No Buckie?
 Tyres question - Lygonos
Buckie used to be a North Lanarkshire thing (particularly Airdrie/Coatbridge where ~90% of male head injuries in Monklands A&E were from Buckie bottles) though it has indeed spread.

Myself and a colleague popped into a nearby hostelry for a post-shift refreshment when we were medical students at Monklands, when a rather manky looking chap came in and asked for a "glass of wine".

That's right: Buckfast was on the optics behind the bar.
 Tyres question - Bobby
As a lifelong resident of North Lanarkshire, I am definitely in the minority that I have never ever tasted Buckie!
I remember when I first worked in Safeway in Livingston we sold rather a lot of Sanatogen Tonic Wine which I believe was a more respected tonic wine!

Can you remember the Hostelry? I lived a stones throw from Monklands!
 Tyres question - Bobby
Well I got to play in the snow today in my X1 with Crossclimate tyres. Had great fun.

A deserted car park gave me the chance to do some wheel spinning and feel the rear wheels kicking in which provided some nice drifting.

Then up and down a few steep snow covered roads including a hill start from stationery half way up one. Hill descent control on the way back down.

Very impressed! And some good fun thrown into the bargain.
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