A couple of weeks ago we'd ordered a set of replacement Goodridge brake hoses from M&P for the Suzuki GSX 1400.
M&P didn't have them in stock do ordered them from Goodridge who posted them directly to us.
When we came to fit them, the banjo nuts on the ens were at the wrong angle to fit without kinking, which of course, it warns on the box, you must not do.
We rang Goodridge who referred us to M&P who told us to return them for a refund as they were the ones listed for that model.
We did this and took the old set of hoses to a Goodridge supplier in Peterborough who made up a set of Goodridge hoses which fitted perfectly.
This weekend we emailed M&P because we'd heard nothing from them and had a reply this morning stating that the hoses supplied were the correct ones, according to Goodridge and since they won't credit M&P, M&P won't credit us.........and they still have the wrongly supplied set of hoses.
When asked what we were supposed to do with them, they suggested that they will send them back and we sell them on Ebay!
Any advice would be welcome as this is a bit like Iffy's dodgy hotel shower, it now a matter of principal more than the cost involved, which is around £70.
Thanks in anticipation.
Pat
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Send them a photo of the new hoses in situ, with the banjo ends, and suggest that goodrich is wrong. Get some detail from the goodrich dealer who supplied the right ones. Quote the frame number from the bike.
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Take a photo of the old hoses, too, if you've still got them. Worth printing them out, too, if you have the means - paper still carries more weight than electronic when trying to make a point, IMHO.
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...and since they won't credit M&P, M&P won't credit us...
That is rubbish and you should tell them so, firmly.
Your contract is with M&P, their dealings with another company are wholly irrelevant.
Generally, if you return goods in good order in reasonable tine, you are entitled to a refund.
I think M&P are taking Pat's general good nature as a sign of weakness and an opportunity to take the mick.
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>> Generally, if you return goods in good order in reasonable tine, you are entitled to
>> a refund.
Hmm thats iffy iffy.
No company has to take back goods if they dont fit, are the wrong type or you dont like them. There has to be a problem with them
For example
YOu say to me "I want to buy Hose part number 123456789, and I supply you with hose part number 123456789, and its the wrong part for your bike, thats tough,
If you say to me "I want a hose for the front brake on my "Hokayam Widowmaker mk 3"
and I supply you with one and it doesent fit, thats my fault, the goods are not fit for purpose and I am legaly obliged to refund or supply the correct goods.
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Not sure if the distance selling regulations apply to this purchase or not. Was the purchase made via the internet or by phone? If so, there is no requirement for the product to be faulty (provided you are within the cooling-off period which I think is one week after delivery.
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...No company has to take back goods if they dont fit, are the wrong type or you dont like them...
From the CAB website: 'Goods bought from a shop must be fit for the purpose for which they were bought.'
I agree Pat is on dodgy ground if she decides she simply doesn't want the goods, but I think she has a very good 'fit for purpose' argument.
The purpose the hose was bought for was to fit the brakes on her motorbike.
It doesn't fit, therefore it's not fit for the purpose it was bought for.
It might be fit for someone else's purpose, but not Pat's, and she's the customer.
tinyurl.com/2wfv3p2
Anyway, what's this firm like?
"We think it's the right one, but you can return it if it's not," is what they should be saying.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 14 Sep 10 at 14:35
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>> I agree Pat is on dodgy ground if she decides she simply doesn't want the
>> goods, but I think she has a very good 'fit for purpose' argument.
>>
>> The purpose the hose was bought for was to fit the brakes on her motorbike.
>>
>> It doesn't fit, therefore it's not fit for the purpose it was bought for.
depends on how she asked for them as I say. However in this case she told them the bike, they supplied on that description therefore they are not fit for purpose.
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Always mention "Duty of care" and then publicity if they don't play the game. Usually works.
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ring the MD up concerned and keep ringing till you have his balls
i did this last year and got full satisfaction
i even got someone the sack
the black widow
she is delicious and i hope he was
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Morning all.
Sorry I was unable to get back on here yesterday to reply to this but thanks for all the advice anyway.
As I type, Mr pda is sitting over his morning muesli composing a return email to M&P based on your replies before leaving for work.
The hoses were ordered as a 'front set of brake hoses for a GSX 1400' so we're going with the not fit for purpose argument at the moment.
We still have the old set and the difference is clear to see.
If there has been no refund by the weekend then I like your tactics Bellboy:)
I used those tactics on Talk Talk after asking for advice on here some months ago about my Broadband problem. I finally lost patience 2 weeks ago and emailed Charles Dunstone. I had an email back by return and contact from a person who deals with 'high level complaints'. Three days later I had the problem sorted and a credit of £135 made on my account, so it was well worth it.
I'll keep you all updated.
Pat
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Here's the email......
>>Dear Sir,
Following a long but unsatisfactory conversation with customer services yesterday, I was advised to put my case via e-mail.
The story is very simple. I ordered from M&P a set of brake hoses to fit my GSX1400. When they arrived I inspected them, they appeared to be the correct length and fittings, so I set about installing them on the bike.
However, whether I started at the master cylinder or the calliper end, one set of unions was always at ninety degrees to where the banjo bolt needed to be. This meant that it was impossible to make the supplied hoses fit without kinking them, which Goodridge clearly state you shouldn't do.
When I contacted M&P to explain the problem, James agreed a refund would be possible, and supplied a return address for the hoses, which I duly returned as instructed.
Since the hoses as supplied through M&P could not be safely fitted to the motorcycle they were ordered for, in the eyes of the law this means they are "unfit for purpose", and so a refund is due. Goodridge's assertion that the hoses are not faulty is irrelevant since my contract for the supply of the parts is with M&P. Any issues you have with your suppliers is your problem not mine, and in no way affects my right to a refund in this case.
I hope for a speedy resolution of this matter, since it has already gone on quite long enough in my opinion. It is already two weeks since James supplied the return address, and I have had to source brake hoses from elsewhere in order to keep my motorcycle on the road while this is sorted out.
As a supplier of safety critical items such as brake hoses, M&P has a duty of care to ensure that the parts supplied are correct. In this instance they are not, and the Sale of Goods Act clearly states that if an item is not fit for its intended purpose then a refund is due. Your procrastination over this has ruined my previous good opinion of M&P as a supplier, and means I am unlikely to deal with you in the future. I don't want the wrong hoses back to "E-bay" as suggested by your customer service representative yesterday, all I want is the refund for faulty goods that I am entitled too.
I look forward to your response on this matter.
<<
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My suggestions (as someone who has won a few of these sorts of things, including two major ones with banks)...
>> Don't say you won't return as a customer (why whould they then help you)
>> In para 4 you suddenly bring goodridge into the argument without saying why
>> instead I'd say about them changing their mind regarding the refund
>> Sow some doubt and give them a reason to climb down gracefully - goodridge may have made a mistake - "perhaps there are two models of master cylinder fitted to this bike, because these ones certainly did not fit mine"
>> might be worth putting in a call to consumer direct (trading standards) before sending, and then mention their advice?
>> The last para is a bit woffly - I'd cut out the ebay stuff and state the resolution you want - a full and immediate refund.
Did you pay by credit card - if so, get them to reverse the transaction; works very well in my experience. Barclaycard are partcilarly helpful.
Last edited by: Tigger on Wed 15 Sep 10 at 06:24
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PS rather than "I look forward to your response on this matter" - ie. a letter, I'd recommend looking forward to a full and immediate refund!
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I do agree Tigger, but Mr pda's alarm was set at 3am instead of 3.30am to respond to their email, and yesterdays telephone conversation with them, and he isn't the best first thing in the morming:)
It was in that conversation where they refused a refund because Goodridge will not refund them.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Wed 15 Sep 10 at 06:34
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If I came across as critical of the letter that wasn't the intention (and sorry) - I do lots of bid reviews at work so tend to be quite focussed on developing my improvement suggestions. And I do mean suggestions - hopefully some others will also add their thoughts and you can pick and mix them to best result. Good luck with it.
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You didn't Tigger, stop fretting:)
We asked for advice and it's much appreciated.
It's always difficult trying to deal with things like this when at work. He rang them yesterday when he was on a 45 minute break and the person he needd to speak to was busy, They rang him back when he was reversing into Mumtaz at Mytholmroyd, where you need to concentrate on what you're doing!
So he suggested he would email them when he got home last night (6.45pm) but the nights are short as a lorry driver, and today started at 4.30am.
I do constantly find myself questioning the term 'Customer Service' more and more these days though.
Pat
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I think Tigger's suggestions for tidying-up the email to the company are spot on.
On t'other hand, it's not an exact science, and the meaning is clear enough, so the original version should get the job done.
...but the nights are short as a lorry driver, and today started at 4.30am...
Pat - I know your return to driving stalled at one point, but does this mean you are back on the road again?
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No Iffy, that's my other half:)
He's a lorry driver too and works for the same firm, doing exactly that same job as I did. We only used to see each other at weekends but it's every night now as he's moved onto day work, but the days are long with the travelling either end. Hence my ealry morning visits to the forum, I still wake with his alarm!
I'm still training drivers for the Drivers CPC, but it's a hard slog because drivers resent this bit of EU regulation.
They typically think they don't need to be taught something they've been doing for years and to an extent, I agree with them.
So I have a slightly different approach, I present it as a refresher course for 7 hours to 'update' them on Drivers Hours Law and Legal responsibilities.
It's surprising how many find they didn't know as much as they thought they did.
If they are in any doubt, a few facts and figures about VOSA's Graduated Fixed Penalty system usually brings them into line!
The problem is though, most firms expect their drivers to pay for their own training plus take a day off to do so, and it's a lot of money to find for someone who is reluctant to do it anyway.
Pat
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>> They typically think they don't need to be taught something they've been doing for years
>> and to an extent, I agree with them.
>> So I have a slightly different approach, I present it as a refresher course for
>> 7 hours to 'update' them on Drivers Hours Law and Legal responsibilities.
Pat, you have sussed out how to be a good teacher!
ie, DON'T force learning onto people, let them think they are just being reminded on things they already (think they) know.
That removes barriers, and so the learning process works.
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"emailed Charles Dunstone"
Pat - can you reveal what address you used? I know someone who might appreciate it!
I assume c.dunstone [at] talktalk [dot] net or similar, but of course the detail is important...
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Here we are
Charles.Dunstone@talktalkgroup.com
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Wed 15 Sep 10 at 10:21
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Blimey, that was quick! Thank you, Pat.
James
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Well, I had to beat Zero, he's got a personal hotline to all the bigwigs, you know:)
Pat
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Going back to the question of the banjos being 90 degrees out, a while back I fitted some HEL brake lines to my bike and with those, you could turn the banjos around.
Yours may be the same.
The old adage applies.
If in doubt, read the instructions.
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You've hit the nail on the head Mr Tee, the banjos were fixed.
The same Goodridge hoses made up at Peterborough had the same ends you speak of that HEL use, and excellent they are too.
Pat
PS Instructions were read.....and read again....and again:)
Hoses fitted one way up, then other way up, then back again just to make sure it was impossible:)
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I think charlie sold talk talk, its not part of the carphone warehouse groups any time soon,
YOu need to knw who to talk to, when the O2 web site was mostly down for 24 hours, I sent an email to the IT manager suggesting his team were doing a PP job.
He emailed back personally
there is a web site of CEO addresses somewhere.
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Reply received from M&P this morning as follows.
>>Date: Wednesday, 15 September, 2010, 10:58
Dear Mr Ratcliffe,
The hoses will be sent back to you today at our expense as they are indeed "fit for purpose". They were made for your requirements by Goodridge and they are correct as we sent them to Goodridge for inspection. We will not offer any refund as bespoke goods are non-refundable.
Regards,
Amie Hansford
Returns Dept
>>
We decided not to reply this morning and to consider carefully the next step. I shall research other complaints today, talk to Trikes & Bikes at Peterborough who made up the correct set using the swivel end banjo's and examine Goodridge's website with a fine tooth comb.
Pat
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...and to consider carefully the next step...
Pat,
Wise move.
Worth having a root around here:
www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/
On one of the pages, it says you are not entitled to a refund 'if you have had the goods made to order'.
Clearly, your supplier knows this is a good get-out from their point of view.
So I think the question is: Were these goods made to order?
Or more to the point: What is a special order?
They can't claim every part they supply that is not in stock is a special order.
If you've asked for a hose for a Kawasaki 1400 and they've gone to their supplier to get one, I don't see that is a special order in the way the law means.
If you went into the shop with hose specs, dimensions, wanting different unions on either end, and asked them to 'make one up', that would be a special order.
Could be an interesting argument.
There wasn't any mould on the box, was there?
Then we'd definitely have 'em nailed. :)
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We think alike on this one Iffy.
The original order to M&P was for a set of Goodridge front brake hoses for Suzuki GS 1400. (model/age supplied)
We were not informed that they didn't have them in stock, We ordered other goods from them at the same time which were delivered promptly but no brake hoses.
After a few days when they didn't appear, we rang M&P and were told that they were being supplied to us directly from Goodridge, and delivery was eventually 10 days after the other part of the order.
I suspect that M&P have ordered 'bespoke' parts from Goodridge but as I see it that is their problem and not ours.
The complete order was paid by Debit card so there is no recompense there.
Pat
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special order has nothing to do with it
You ordered for xxxx application. How who why and where it was made is of no consequence, it did not fit your application as you instructed them to so do, so its Not fit for purpose.
Where he says they are, he is, quite simply, wrong.
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...special order has nothing to do with it...
It can have, according to Consumer Direct you are not entitled to a refund if:
"You had the goods made to your specifications or personalised."
The company is trying to pull a fast one on Pat by relying on the above clause, which is why she's been told their supplier 'made the hose specially'.
I don't agree with them, but that's where the dispute is.
www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/buying_at_home/returning-cancelling/#named4
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>> It can have, according to Consumer Direct you are not entitled to a refund if:
>>
>> "You had the goods made to your specifications or personalised."
The only spec Pat provided was the bike. They failed to meet the specification she requested,
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If all else fails and you are determined to see this through, then file a claim against M & P through Moneyclaim.
I have used this facility and won in the past.
It often concentrates a companies mind, when they have a summons to appear in court and they would have to be quite sure that they have consumer law on their side berfore they decided to defend.
My guess is that on issue of a summons, they will see that you are not going to give up as so often happens and pay up pronto.
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>> >>Date: Wednesday, 15 September, 2010, 10:58
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr Ratcliffe,
>>
>> The hoses will be sent back to you today at our expense as they are
>> indeed "fit for purpose". They were made for your requirements by Goodridge and they are
>> correct as we sent them to Goodridge for inspection. We will not offer any refund
>> as bespoke goods are non-refundable.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Amie Hansford
>> Returns Dept
Dear Mr Hansford.
Thank you for your comunication 15th September, 2010.
Your company were instructed to supply hoses for a specific application type, Front brake for . They do not fit or fullfill this requirement, and are therefore not fit for purpose under the legal and practical definition of that term as laid out in the Sale of Goods act 1979.
Under the terms of this act I therefore expect a full refund.
yours
blah.
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Pat,
If your debit card is a Visa one, you could try for a chargeback. I've done this successfully with Visa on my debit card - the word "chargeback" is the key, not "refund" or any other variant.
I did it by talking to the supplying bank and just saying I wanted a chargeback (wrong goods supplied as it happens), they asked a couple of relevant questions, then argued, I spoke to Visa customer services who put a rocket up the bank and a few days later the money came back.
End of problem.
Look here for more gen if you're interested.
whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/
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Thanks for that information Crankcase, it is a Visa one and it's certainly worth a try.
Pat
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Yesterday Mr pda spent a couple of hours going through all the advice above and following the links posted.
He's asked me to thank you all.
He rang Santander and initiated the 'chargeback' process, and surprisingly they were quite happy to do this. They also advised sending the hoses back to M&P unopened, which has been done.
He has also sent a short and concise letter to them asking for a full refund, under the SGA1979, within 14 days.
I will keep you updated!
Pat
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...I will keep you updated!...
Pat,
Sounds good.
It was an adapted SGA template letter which shook the hotel into action in the Great Mouldy Bathroom Dispute.
One or two people think I - and probably you - are moaning minnies.
But what I cannot bear is someone's good nature being taken advantage of, which I think is at least a part of what's happened to both of us.
Staff at some companies seem to think being polite, affable, and paying what they ask on the nail and without question are all signs of weakness.
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>> Staff at some companies seem to think being polite, affable, and paying what they ask
>> on the nail and without question are all signs of weakness.
Isn't that the truth about so many things, not just from a sales perspective.
In the workplace good loyal staff often get used and abused and end up leaving whilst greedy wingeing unreliable wasters flourish, seen it hundreds of times.
In relationships it's so often the case that one partner bullies and takes advantage of the others love and commitment.
Hope the course of action works out Pat.
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I help very few people now as Kindness is often and usually taken for stupidity. Sad really.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. The total amount is less than £60 and at 3.30am the other morning, having to deal with it by an earlier alarm call, was a pain. It would have been far less stressful to do as they suggested and 'off them on Ebay'.
Far more satisfaction this way though:)
The template was used but slightly modified!
Pat
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An update but this one seems to get even more curious as it goes on.
The 14 days given in the letter above will be up on Tuesday, allowing for delivery to them. The hoses would have been received by them too by 19th September.
We have had no communication from them whatsoever, so they now have the hoses and the money too.
Yhe Santander charge back forms were completed and sent off last weekend but we've heard nothing from there yet, but it does state that it takes a little while to investigate.
How best to proceed now?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Sun 3 Oct 10 at 07:15
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...How best to proceed now?...
Not much point in writing any more threatening letters to the company, but neither is it quite time to visit the county court.
I think you need to be able to tell the court office you've given the company two weeks and an extra week.
You may then reasonably assume they are not going to reply without a letter which indicates court proceedings have started, rather than they might start.
It may not come to that, I would be inclined to chase the chargeback later next week.
In the Great Mouldy Bathroom Dispute, we did not need to get the credit card company involved, but we got the impression they were not too keen at first.
It took a formal letter to them before they would admit they did have some responsibility, if the dispute did not resolve in the meantime, which it did.
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Final update:)
It certainly took that formal letter to do the trick and they would have received that on Monday morning.
Today there is a full refund in Mr pda's bank account. No reply, no communication whatsoever, but a refund just the same.
It does pay to persevere, but I don't know if we would have achieved this without the help from you all on here.
Ian has asked me to thank you all for taking the time to advise us on this, he's very grateful to you all.
While I have been posting this update Ian was on the phone to Santander to cancel the Chargeback procedure..............only to be told it is them who have done the refund and not M&P after all:)
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Wed 13 Oct 10 at 17:52
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...Today there is a full refund in Mr pda's bank account...
Pat,
Pleased to hear it.
You have that to which you are entitled, no more, no less.
Just a shame you've had to cuss, cajole and threaten to get it.
Reminds me of a dispute I had with a hotel.
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Well done! If you are in the right persistence pays and you WILL get a result. I had a 10 month dispute with Barclaycard over a refund for a fare paid to an airline which went bust. They categorically refused to pay (never mind why) and two weeks after I complained to the relevant Ombudsman, they found that they had made an error in their handling of the chargeback and a full refund turned up in the right bank account.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 13 Oct 10 at 18:50
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I think special thanks have to go to Crankcase for telling us about the chargeback procedure.
I certainly wasn't aware of this facility with a debit card and thought it was only sales made using a credit card that could be disputed.
Pat
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Crankcase, does the chargeback work with Visa electron as well? I have this with Santander, I think they gave me this rather than a normal Visa debit card because I didn't want a cheque book and electron cards are not cheque garantee cards.
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Just another update when we thought it was all sorted out.
We had a letter from Santander telling us that M&P are contesting the withdrawal of the payment to them on the grounds that they have not received the hoses back.
Luckily we sent them in such a way that they had to be signed for and have now let Santander have a copy of this.
M&P have certainly not come out of this in a very good light and I think we'll be using Demon Tweeks in future for any internet purchases.
Pat
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>> M&P have certainly not come out of this in a very good light
I agree. I've bought a few things off them which have been OK, but its only when things go wrong that you find out what a company's customer service is really like. I'm adding M&P to my 'only if I really, really have to' list.
Top of my 'good guys' list at the moment is Riversway Leisure. I ordered some bits in their sale at a great price - so did everyone else and they sold out, and the dsitributer also went out of stock. They gave me the option of a refund or waiting for the distributer's next batch - which I did. I also recommend Leisureshopdirect and cpc - very fast service, every time.
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Sorry, Nut, missed this post ages ago, but in case it's still of interest, as far as I can see yes, the Electron card is covered too.
See
www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/your-rights-when-paying-by-credit-card/chargeback-on-credit-and-debit-cards
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Goodridge and M&P...Advice needed. - Zero
