Well I had to attract your attention somehow...
My daughter just got a solicitor's letter saying she'd driven off without paying for petrol (£38) at the local M&S garage/store.
She remembers going there on that day and has no payment on her card so she has said they must be right.
What surprised me was how nicely worded it was. It suggested she may have forgotten, not uncommon etc.
She had the choice of paying online with an £18 surcharge or dropping into the place again and paying just the £38, which we've just done. Apparently the bloke on the till had to remind himself what code to use on the till, as they have different codes for different "offences", but he said it's happening all the time. And this is a posh area!! :-)
I know they have to follow up, and I'm sure repeat offenders are dealt with differently (and maybe she is now on some watch list), but I wonder how much it cost them to send the letter!?
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Driving off without paying for your fuel is only against the law if you planned or intended to do it *before* you put the fuel in. Otherwise it's a civil matter, hence the polite letter. And accusing her of doing it intentionally could go very badly for them.
>>I wonder how much it cost them to send the letter
Probably not £38, but even so can you imagine the chaos that would result if they were known not to follow up on these?
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>> I know they have to follow up, and I'm sure repeat offenders are dealt with
>> differently (and maybe she is now on some watch list), but I wonder how much
>> it cost them to send the letter!?
A lot of big companies, certainly banks, have in house solicitors who are set up as, or to look like, independent practices. Years ago Barclaycard's was Donna somebody or other who had an office at Castle House, Marefair, Northampton. Conveniently next door to what was then the main Barclaycard building in the same road. Must have had quite a large staff but the vast majority were clerical.
Going back further United Dominions Trust used MJ Sechiari with whom they shared an adress.
I'd imagine cost of a letter in those sort of set ups is pretty low.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 16 Apr 20 at 16:56
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All the parking companies used to use lots of different firms of solicitors, who funnily enough were all at the same address, and where there were no solicitors registered at the law society. There was lots of firms of debt collection agencies at the same address.
It happened to be just round the corner from where I live. Since parking "fines" has more or less been legalised, they sold up and its been turned into posh apartments.
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>>Certainly banks...
www.theguardian.com/money/2014/jul/04/banks-legal-demands-that-scare-customers
We certainly use an industry expert for most of our issues and have a panel for more general problems.
Of course we have our own solicitors but they never pretend to be another company.
There are lots of solicitors who do basic services very cheaply. A classic example for chasing letters is Thomas A Higgins who send out final demands for a few quid each for loads of businesses.
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Used to be S3 Theft Act 1978 (when I were a lad) - may still well be. A nicely crafted bit of legislation with loads of case-law to it up. I feel quite nostalgic
It is an offence to make off with the intention of not paying, knowing that a payment is required on the spot for goods or services
IIRC correctly the intention can be formed before, during or indeed after the obtaining of property...like doing a runner after an Indian (other ethnic food is available)
The old word of Bilking is a nice one.
M&S probably responding to the Old Bill's desire not to be free debt collectors.
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I remember when I first began studying law and my lecturer (A wonderful lady called Anne Good who worshipped the ground Lord Denning walked upon and obsessed over his judgements) explained that we'd never regard the words "intention" and "reasonable" the same way ever again.
>>IIRC correctly the intention can be formed before, during or indeed after the obtaining of property
"After" would be a difficult one and it'd certainly be a different offence.
>>on the spot
Wasn't it "at the time"??
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Back in my Safeway days if we had drive offs we would phone police and they would deal - some cases the folk came back apologetic, others went to court charged with theft.
We also had a standard form, can't remember its exact name now, but was for folk who genuinely had forgotten their purses, bank cards declined etc. Think they had one week to come back.
Of course for audit purposes, the PFS had to carry a shortage every day until the debt was paid.
I have heard of some independent PFS insisting on personal possessions being left behind in such cases.
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I used to fill up at a shell filling station pretty regularly, I remember there being a clip board propped up so anyone could read it of people's name who'd not been able to pay for whatever reason. There always seemed to be half a dozen names on it, it was more common that I'd thought.
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>> I used to fill up at a shell filling station pretty regularly, I remember there
>> being a clip board propped up so anyone could read it of people's name who'd
>> not been able to pay for whatever reason. There always seemed to be half a
>> dozen names on it, it was more common that I'd thought.
>>
One suspects that the garage would get a slap on the wrists today for GDPR issues and be sued for libel by the named alleged miscreants.
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Wasn't that long ago, maybe 6/7 years. I don't think it was name and shame more carelessness really.
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GDPR - theres a thought!
Back to Safeway days again, we used to have a rogues gallery of CCTV stills in the staff canteen!
Doubt that would be allowed nowadays either......
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I genuinely forgot my wallet and didn't realise until after I'd filled. The cashier seemed to accept my story, but I was on the way to collect a curry, so I had to go back home anyway. I don't think I would have got away with it at the curry house.
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>> GDPR - theres a thought!
>>
>> Back to Safeway days again, we used to have a rogues gallery of CCTV stills
>> in the staff canteen!
>>
>> Doubt that would be allowed nowadays either......
>>
Yep, we don't have a list of people never to do business with and it's never circulated around the industry.
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Wonder how that works in the casino industry these days.
I have a gazillion non-fiction books about casino heists and cheats over the years, from the fifties to the early 2000s I guess, and they all talk about how the casinos shared info, video, lists and so on in ever more sophisticated ways.
Once you got banned from an entire country it was time to try another.
Is that info about cheats all illegal in the UK now I wonder, and do they do it anyway?
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If it’s accurate and necessary for the business the it’s not illegal.
You have to remove the data subject from the record if they ask and there is no business need to keep it.
We have people taking out loans and mortgages and asking to be forgotten right away! Like that’s going to happen!
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>> If it’s accurate and necessary for the business the it’s not illegal.
>>
I'm wondering if it's illegal now to share the data with other non related casinos, as they all used to. Typically it was photos, video and lists of names identifying them.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 17 Apr 20 at 13:54
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After" would be a difficult one and it'd certainly be a different offence.
Not really.
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>> What surprised me was how nicely worded it was. It suggested she may have forgotten,
>> not uncommon etc.
That sounds like sound business sense. Especially on a first occasion - assume that it's an oversight, that the customer is loyal to your brand and you can use the event to build your customer relationship.
I especially like the idea of no surcharge if you go to the store. I bet most customers are very apologetic, and it gives chance for both sides to recognise each other as humans.
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>> I especially like the idea of no surcharge if you go to the store. I
>> bet most customers are very apologetic, and it gives chance for both sides to recognise
>> each other as humans.
More like the hope they will spend a few bob while in there.
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My daughter wanted me to go in and pay for her as she was so embarrassed by having done it.
I reminded her it's only a petrol pump guy she'd be seeing, not the M&S CEO.
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I've never unwittingly driven away without paying, but twice I've found myself without my wallet patting my pockets in a futile way.
One, some 50 odd miles from home, was very pleasant about it. Took my name and address and allowed me to post a cheque the next day, which of course I did.
The second, was about 2 miles from my home when I was on my way to work early in the morning. I went in and confessed, as one does, and said I'd pop home and be right back, as I'd forgotten my jacket with everything in it.
The guy was a total a*** about it, threatening me with everything under the sun and insisting he was going to call the police and have me arrested, and was abusive. I gave him my name and address and said I would pay at my own convenience and only when I had received an invoice from him.
Though way back in the 70s when I worked in a petrol station serving, we learned that nobody *ever* came back to pay unless we had retained something of value. Absolutely nobody.
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>> Though way back in the 70s when I worked in a petrol station serving, we
>> learned that nobody *ever* came back to pay unless we had retained something of value.
>> Absolutely nobody.
>>
Yep, same experience for me. We used to serve people and customer asking for £4 worth then insisting they'd said 4 gallons (was 50p ish gallon) and they only had £2 and some change on them was common too.
A few years ago I attempted (accidentally) to leave a pub in Wetherby without paying for lunch. Landlady tore me a new one.
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I'll hold my hand up and admit to doing a runner from a Chinese restaurant back in my foolish youth.
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>>A few years ago I attempted (accidentally) to leave a pub in Wetherby without paying
Did that for an evening meal in an hotel in Lockerbie with a wife and two daughters in tow. Woke up next morning thinking I didn't pay. Drove to the hotel to be met by a furious owner who recognised me. After submitting to a few minutes of him ranting at me (I deserved it), he eventually realised I wouldn't have been there to mock him. I think he finally realised it was purely an oversight on my behalf and the reason I'd come back was to correct it. Apparently he'd sent he staff out looking for us, not thinking we'd taken the kids to a nearby playground to run off some energy after they'd spent hours in the car. I got the impression we parted as the best of friends as he realised I was doing the decent thing.
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>>A few years ago I attempted (accidentally) to leave a pub in Wetherby without paying for lunch.
I've left the bar without paying more than once. Sometimes with quite sizeable bills. Fortunately I am there so frequently there is never any concern that I might be trying to dodge the bill.
God forbid I ever do it somewhere I'm not known.
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A couple of weeks ago we went to the local supermarket. No queues, perfectly well-stocked store but another pointless idiotic rule - only 5 trollies in the supermarket at any time and one basket each only. So it was for easter weekend, we had no trolley and we were shopping for two adults, two adult-sized kids and a medium-sized hippo-in-law. I had a basket and one of those reusable canvas-type bags. Wifey had the same plus her emergency bag that she always carried and that was on her shoulder. We filled up the bags and baskets and dragged everything around the shop floor, paid and dragged it all to the car. Not happy. We loaded the car and wifey suddenly started squealing and panicking. What's up, said I? She hadn't paid for anything in her emergency bag. It stayed on her shoulder all through the checkout rigmarole. About £15 quids worth. She said shall we go and pay for it? I said they can naff off. If they'd provided a trolley for the produce we were carrying and buying, it wouldn't have happened.
But we sat in the car, talking about it and I started to giggle - the guy in the bay opposite had managed to get a trolley which was now cram-packed with easter goodies and was struggling to get everything in his rucksack and the saddlebag on his Vespa. Didn't seem possible. I thought of offering to take his shopping and I'd follow him but you know... who can you trust these days?
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Many years ago when I was spending half my time in the UK and half in Germany I arranged to meet a friend who was visiting HQ for a few days. We went out for dinner before retiring to a nearby bar for a few beers. Well, a few beers soon became quite a few beers.
When the bar towels went over the beer taps we set off walking down the street to the nearest taxi rank. We'd gone about 50 yards when the barmaid came running up behind us waving our unpaid beermats.
Highly embarrassing.
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I always pay. Can't do a runner. Knackered knees. :-)
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M&S petrol theft - No FM2R
